New motor tax and VRT regime. Links + calculations

E92

Dwilly wrote: »

Also, E92, from your spreadsheet RS4 cab down about 30k? Am I dreaming?

That was a typo, of course it's not down 30k. I never put in 36% in the "new VRT %" section, and as I have a formula written into the "price from 1/7/08", it is calculating what it would be if there was no VRT.

Sorry about that, but as you said, we can always dream:)!

Dwilly

E92 wrote: »

That was a typo

Thought as much :rolleyes:

Great work on the spreadsheets mate :cool:

Dwilly

Dwilly wrote: »

Thought as much :rolleyes:

Great work on the spreadsheets mate :cool:

Any news on the new M3? I'd imagine it'll be up about 10k?

TheBazman

Yep Dwilly its on the spreadsheet +9,741

Fizman

Any sign of a VW spreadsheet lads?

E92

Here's another one! Includes the i30, and as the Trajet and a couple of other models have been discontinued, these don't feature unsurprisingly.

I'm trying to do these alphabetically, so it could be another while before the likes of VW and Volvo are done I'm afraid, even though I know they are popular here. This is the 15th of 39, so that's getting close to halfway, and another few will be done tonight.

Dwilly

Let's club together for a pair of furry dice for E92

E92

Here is number 16 - Jaguar. I can see where the Government might make money in this new VRT scheme actually, up to now I've been wondering, but the truth is that once you go beyond the Avensis size, things take a dramatic turn for the worse in terms of VRT, BMW excluded. Even I never realised how beneficial EfficientDynamics is, like the 530i does 178 g/km for CO2, but a diesel Jag XF does 199 g/km or in other words a 3.0 petrol BMW with 272 bhp is better on emissions than a 2.7 diesel Jag with 204 bhp.

If you're getting an XF, and from what I've heard it is meant to be a great car, even the best in the class according to some, hurry hurry hurry and get one before you're contributing €2k a year to the Government on road tax alone in the case of the 3.0 petrol. FWIW a 3.0 530i would be €1400 cheaper to tax than an XF 3.0 after July, and €400 cheaper than even the diesel.

E92

Here is the expected price list - unsurprisingly all bar one model are in the 36% VRT. If people keep buying 4X4s in the numbers they currently do, the loss in money from people switching to diesel in the Focus/Avensis etc segment is going to be somewhat compensated by the gains in VRT in many 4X4s!

E92

Here's another one for the Kia range, including the new Cee'd, and a couple of models I've never heard of before!

E92

Here's another one - this time for Land Rover. No surprises there I think.

E92

Last one for tonight, Lexus. As you will see this much talked about Hybrid technology isn't so wonderful at all in big cars, all these supposedly green hybrids are all in Bands E&F, the second and third dirtiest bands for VRT, and in the case of the GS hybrid, a 3.0 BMW 5 series petrol is actually better on CO2, never mind the diesel.

And you will see that Lexus are not passing on the VRT savings for their Hybrids in full to the consumer either. I've put in what the prices should be though, just so you can see how much of the VRT refund Lexus are taking for themselves! Nice one Lexus:(!

flanzer

And there was Dick Roche last year been driven around in his RX hybrid portraying to people that he was doing good to the environment...Numpty! I'm sure he wouldn't have been caught dead in a Prius.

Similar to a chap here who I work with, who's the 'Environmental Manager' and constantly speiling about how we should recycle and start making our own compost yet drives around in a '02 M5....pot and kettle springs to mind!

unkel

The big Lexus hybrid guzzler goes up in price by 25% :eek:

Nobody is going to buy those, especially not newly embarrassed government ministers

flanzer wrote: »

who's the 'Environmental Manager' and constantly speiling about how we should recycle and start making our own compost yet drives around in a '02 M5...

LOL

ninty9er

Then again with a 5l V8 the LS600h isn't doing too bad on 219g against the 750i on 271g and the S500 on 294g, and pitting it against the Flagships when both motors are combined the 760Li on 327 and the S600 on 340g.

Added to that the savings in traffic it's not surprising that I've seen 3 or 4 of the Hybrid Lexi on 08 plates around Limerick already. The diesel hybrids from Toyota and Merc are going to be interesting!!

copacetic

E92 wrote: »

And you will see that Lexus are not passing on the VRT savings for their Hybrids in full to the consumer either. I've put in what the prices should be though, just so you can see how much of the VRT refund Lexus are taking for themselves! Nice one Lexus:(!

this is the same with the saab biopower, list prices are as normal but you get a vrt rebate afair.

E92

copacetic wrote: »

this is the same with the saab biopower, list prices are as normal but you get a vrt rebate afair.

I don't know if Saab are trousering some of the difference, but I will write it down in the Saab price list when I get to it should I find that they are and by how much.

E92

Here's the Mazda one, includes the new Mazda2 and Mazda6. The petrols are very good for CO2 in this car, even the 2.0 gets into 24% VRT, so if you want a petrol family saloon with a bit of poke, here's one that will be very reasonable to run! I notice that a lot of the diesels are still going to be quite a bit dearer than their petrol counterparts to buy here too, and if you want a CX-7 or an RX-8, buy one before it's too late, the RX-8 is going up by €6,700 minimum:eek:!

copacetic

E92 wrote: »

I don't know if Saab are trousering some of the difference, but I will write it down in the Saab price list when I get to it should I find that they are and by how much.

thats what i am saying, afaik you actually pay the proper price and the rebate is given back to you at the same time. i.e they can't pocket the difference.

On the lexus calcs above, isn't the hybrid is covered by the new flat rate vrt of €2500? i.e it isn't under the same regime as petrol or diesel cars.

Bee

TontoMurphy wrote: »

Picking up a new Passat in 1st week in Jan.
Tax on that day and forever more will be €590 per year. Exactly same car bought in July will be €290 (Band C 141-155 grams per km). Tell me how 2 identical cars can have such a radically different taxation system.

Might take my chances and "sorry guard, i'm waiting on log book" until July.

Per usual, those eejits an government buildings haven;t thought about anything and just grabbed the first idea that came into their head and ran with it....

May your God Bless yout innoncence!

The reason you are being ripped off and all of the those nice Green party supporters that have already bought alledgedly low emission cars prior to July '08 is simply a cynical revenue gathering exercise by the Government.:rolleyes:

Imagine being a Green supporter, foolishly thinking you were doing your bit for the environment and having bought a diesel with a low C02 output prior to July 08 and you are rewarded with increased VRT, a higher Motor Tax bracket and a lower re-sale value!:eek:


I hope people actually vote a little more wisely in the next election!

copacetic

Bee wrote: »

Imagine being a Green supporter, foolishly thinking you were doing your bit for the environment and having bought a diesel with a low C02 output prior to July 08 and you are rewarded with increased VRT, a higher Motor Tax bracket and a lower re-sale value!:eek:

possibly lower resale, but not increased vrt or higher motor tax. just no change.

imagine the outcry if the new higher co2 motor tax was brought in on cars people already have. they can't win.

E92

copacetic wrote: »

On the lexus calcs above, isn't the hybrid is covered by the new flat rate vrt of €2500? i.e it isn't under the same regime as petrol or diesel cars.

Under the new system, hybrids are taxed the same as petrols or diesels, and an additional rebate of up to €2,500 is available. I wrote down underneath each hybrid price that this rebate of up to €2,500 is available, and that the details have yet to be announced by the Government!

The Government hasn't decided yet what hybrids will get this extra rebate(well if they have that's news to me, and I'd like to know what hybrids are getting it), and if they do, how much this rebate will be worth, so the calculations for the hybrid prices include the VRT rebate under the old system, as can be seen clearly when you look at the "old VRT %" column, because all it was was half the standard VRT rate, and the price from July excludes the rebate simply because I don't know what it is.


I will also deal with FFV cars cause someone is bound to ask.

Under the new system, FFVs are taxed the same as petrols or diesels, however the CO2 rating is determined by which fuel pollutes the least amount of CO2. It is quite complicated because the CO2 emissions from the tailpipe are only a fraction less than those of a petrol, but Ethanol is a renewable resource unlike petrol, and the manufacture depending on how its done can absorb 80%(when running on E85) of the CO2 produced when driving on E85. However the Government only measures tailpipe emissions, not net emissions. I've put down the tailpipe emissions of whichever is the lowest. An additional rebate of up to €2,500 is available. I wrote down underneath each FFV price that this rebate of up to €2,500 is available, and that the details have yet to be announced by the Government!

An example of how this might work is a 1.8 FFV car pollutes 173 g/km of CO2 when running on petrol, and 169 g/km of CO2 when running on E85. Under the old VRT system this would be 12.5% VRT(half of 25%). Under the new system, the VRT rating is 24%, and there is an additional rebate of up to €2,500 available. Lets take an otherwise identical car but is not an FFV. So the CO2 rating is 173 g/km. Under the old system, the VRT would have been 25%. Under the new system, the VRT is 28%. Any car that pollutes between 156 and 170 g/km is taxed at 24% VRT. Any car that pollutes between 171 and 190 g/km is taxed at 28% VRT. So as you can see, the Government gives you the benefit of taxing which ever fuel pollutes the least amount of CO2 emitted at the tailpipe of a car in the case of an FFV.

The Government hasn't decided yet what FFVs will get this extra rebate(well if they have that's news to me, and I'd like to know what FFVs are getting it), and if they do, how much this rebate will be worth, so the calculations for the FFV prices include the VRT rebate under the old system, as can be seen clearly when you look at the "old VRT %" column, because all it was was half the standard VRT rate, and the price from July excludes the rebate simply because I don't know what it is.

Bee

copacetic wrote: »

possibly lower resale, but not increased vrt or higher motor tax. just no change.

imagine the outcry if the new higher co2 motor tax was brought in on cars people already have. they can't win.

From the small ads pages, a 2006 Octavia 1.9TDi with C02 emissions of 140 g/km. €511 per year in motor tax. Motor tax increases after July 08 increase to €560.

The same car bought after July ’08 will have a reduced VRT and a lower motor tax of €150!
See what I mean about anyone who has bought a diesel prior to July will suffer a lower resale value and a higher motor tax on an identical car bought after July 08?

No wonder Minister of the environment J Gormley has earned the nickname “Gormless”:p

This gents web page highlights a lot

See here http://members.lycos.co.uk/irishmotortax2008/Index.htm

copacetic

Bee wrote: »

From the small ads pages, a 2006 Octavia 1.9TDi with C02 emissions of 140 g/km. €511 per year in motor tax. Motor tax increases after July 08 increase to €560.

The same car bought after July ’08 will have a reduced VRT and a lower motor tax of €150!
See what I mean about anyone who has bought a diesel prior to July will suffer a lower resale value and a higher motor tax on an identical car bought after July 08?

No wonder Minister of the environment J Gormley has earned the nickname “Gormless”:p

This gents web page highlights a lot

See here http://members.lycos.co.uk/irishmotortax2008/Index.htm

motor tax doesn't increase for that car in July 08, it goes up 9.5% from Feb 1st, as t does everyone who currenly owns a car(some more than 9.5%). The person owning that car will pay higher motor tax than someone who buys a new one after july, big deal.

They will pay the same as anyone owning the same age car and around what they knew they would pay when the bought it. Plenty of people with higher co2 emissions will pay less tax than someone buying a new car in July. Should they also be made pay more? How would that be fair?


I paid stamp duty on my house, if I bought it now I would pay a lot less. Should I get my money back? It's ****ty but new tax regimes are never backdated.

The_Conductor

Are there any grounds on which the proposed legislation could be legally challenged?

galwaytt

FFS ! An MX-5 goes up in price and now Eur600 p.a. to tax!! Mental, pure ****ing mental.

time to wax my '90 then.............

copacetic

smccarrick wrote: »

Are there any grounds on which the proposed legislation could be legally challenged?

for unfairness?

Bee

smccarrick wrote: »

Are there any grounds on which the proposed legislation could be legally challenged?

You could make your views known to these people, there is a lot of negative publicity building up as people realise how unfair the tax is to be implemented. Mail the newspapers, radio stations etc.

minister@environ.ie The Gormless person responsible!

taoiseach@taoiseach.ie

fergus.odowd@finegael.ie

dominic.hannigan@oir.ie



From the Independant http://www.independent.ie/national-news/greens-urged-to-do-uturn-as-tax-hits-clean-drivers-1255743.html

Greens urged to do U-turn as tax hits 'clean' drivers

By Eddie Cunningham and Senan Molony
Wednesday January 02 2008


ENVIRONMENT Minister John Gormley is coming under intense pressure to change parts of the new-car tax system as thousands of motorists face a costly buying dilemma.


The Green Party has been accused of going against the spirit of the whole new system by penalising those who buy 'green' cars over the next few months on road tax while favouring those who buy gas guzzlers.

As things now stand, road tax on cars bought before July 1 will be based on engine size. From July 1, the tax will be based on emissions.

The difference could be hundreds of euro in favour of those who buy a 'green' car in July, or a gas guzzler before then, even though emission levels from either will not change.

Compounding the problem is the fact that the engine-based system will be for the life of the car. That means potential road tax bills will run to thousands of euro more for 'cleaner' cars, and less for 'dirtier' motors over that period.

The pressure is on Mr Gormley to change the system so those renewing their road tax can do so under the emissions system. This is seen as being much fairer and a far greater encouragement to buy cleaner cars.

Both industry chiefs and Opposition politicians are urging Mr Gormley to amend the rules so those renewing their road tax can avail of the new system's benefits.

Fine Gael's transport spokesman Fergus O'Dowd confirmed last night that he was receiving many complaints from would-be car buyers frustrated that they would be penalised by buying a smaller, or lower-emissions, vehicle now.

"If they buy now, they won't get any benefit -- instead they will be hit at the old rate," Mr O'Dowd said. "They are being forced to hold off, even though their need might be now.

"We believe that anyone who buys a car which is more environmentally friendly should benefit immediately."

The current apparent contradiction is coming into sharp focus as new-car buyers and sellers are heading into traditionally the busiest purchasing period of the year with major uncertainties hanging over them.

And last night one of the country's senior motoring figures said the road tax issue will have a bigger impact than the Government had thought.

Ford Ireland chief Eddie Murphy said the cost of road tax would ultimately have an effect on a car's second-hand value.

While purchase tax had dominated discussion of the new regime, he said road tax was an annual bill that would impact heavily on a car's running costs.

Like many others in the industry he said there was no sign of any tangible level of purchasing cancellations for January. Usually a high proportion of sales this month have been pre-booked and predated the Budget measures.

Mr Murphy believed February and March would provide better indications of how many will decide to wait until July -- or even next year.

But for buyers of gas guzzlers, this is their last-chance saloon to save money. If they wait until July their purchase tax and annual road tax will increase significantly.

However, for most buyers the price difference between January and July will not be that large.

Based on 2006 purchases, around seven-in-10 were in the C to E emissions bands where changes in VRT rates will be smallest.

The Department of Finance reckons more than half the cars bought should benefit from some reduction in the VRT purchase tax.

Distributors and dealers agree there will be more shopping around and calculating this January than ever.

Some marques have already begun heavy promotions such as dropping prices to July levels.

There is every likelihood, however, that there will be a major slowdown from April.

- Eddie Cunningham and Senan Molony

ninty9er

Sorry Unkel.........but in response to Bee

Do you suggest that if income tax is raised next year to 45% it should be backdated for the previous 8 years when the higher rate was below 45%??

This system is much too messy to backdate. If you want to hire a team of software engineers to devise a system as the cost of hundreds of millions and then donate it to the government for the benefit of the rest of the country's motorists then go ahead.....



.......didn't think so!!

Systems create winners and losers....for once people at the bottom of the chain are the winners and the wealthy landowning 4.4l X5 drivers will suffer. Just be glad it's not the other way around!

what_car

ninty9er wrote: »

Sorry Unkel.........but in response to Bee

Do you suggest that if income tax is raised next year to 45% it should be backdated for the previous 8 years when the higher rate was below 45%??

This system is much too messy to backdate. If you want to hire a team of software engineers to devise a system as the cost of hundreds of millions and then donate it to the government for the benefit of the rest of the country's motorists then go ahead.....



.......didn't think so!!

Systems create winners and losers....for once people at the bottom of the chain are the winners and the wealthy landowning 4.4l X5 drivers will suffer. Just be glad it's not the other way around!

yeah the lads that devised the e voting machines that are now gathering dust:D will you keep your FF politics ****e in the politics forum , or the corruption one, this is a motors forum.:D