New motor tax and VRT regime. Links + calculations

Seth Brundle

It presumes that nobody would dream of importing a car made before 2000!

mccannf

Yeah, apparently the Certificate of Conformity with a documented CO2 figure only became standard around late 1999, so it'll be a real headache for the VROs to get accurate evidence of CO2 figures for classic cars

ninty9er

mccannf wrote: »

Yeah, apparently the Certificate of Conformity with a documented CO2 figure only became standard around late 1999, so it'll be a real headache for the VROs to get accurate evidence of CO2 figures for classic cars

Not the VROs problem. The onus is on the new owner/importer to get a value from the manufacturer of the car, otherwise it will be liable for the top rate of €2000

mccannf

ninty9er wrote: »

Not the VROs problem. The onus is on the new owner/importer to get a value from the manufacturer of the car, otherwise it will be liable for the top rate of €2000

Sorry, you're right:

The declaration will be required to be supported by documentary evidence of the CO2 rating, for example, a Certificate of Conformity, a previous registration certificate, or a certificate from the manufacturer or a
main distributor, provided in each case the CO2 rating is included; or a certificate from an organisation approved by the Revenue Commissioners to provide such certificates. Where a certificate or a measurement is not available or fails to satisfy the Revenue Commissioners, the VRT tax charged could be set at the maximum VRT rate allowable. Such a VRT rating would be open to appeal through the VRT appeals system.

I assume "could be set" = "will be set"...

dlambirl

What would be the annual motor tax for a 2000 3.0 ltr Izuzu Trooper Commercial??

I assume it aint €2,000?????????????

unkel

dlambirl wrote: »

What would be the annual motor tax for a 2000 3.0 ltr Izuzu Trooper Commercial??

I assume it aint €2,000?????????????

A SWB '98 3.0 diesel emits 278g/km (see the link on the first page). So private tax on one registered in Ireland after 01/07/2008 would indeed be €2,000!

dlambirl

would that not be for a passenger one???

a commercial one is gonna be €2,000 :eek::eek::eek:

E92

Here is the one for Renault, kind of backs up the Excel file AudiChris has done already. This time, I got Excel to work VRT using the OMSP, following the comments from AudiChris, unkel and others. Any future spreadsheet will use OMSP of 92% unless otherwise stated if I think there is good reason to use something else.

One thing that struck me as I did this one is how big a gap there is between the Renault petrols and diesels. Normally if say a petrol is in 24%, then the diesel is in 20% or maybe on a few occasions, 16%, and then in the Laguna size the petrols are usually in 28%, and the diesels are in 24 or 20% in certain cases. Here though, the gaps are simply massive, that 1.5 dCi is very low indeed on CO2, in the Mégane, you'd be talking about 24% VRT for a petrol 1.4, yet the 1.5 dCi manages to get in in the 14% VRT category. The petrols are no worse than rivals, but the smaller diesels are very good indeed. The days of the 1.6 Laguna I think it is very safe to say will be numbered very soon.

I also included models that aren't on sale here(I took an educated guess as to what they might bring in tbh), because the emissions are so low that they should be a lot more affordable after July on the VRT, and also there are a surprising amount of Renaults that don't offer a paraffin stove option where rivals do offer a paraffin stove option.

E92

Not that it matters even slightly since just 1, yes 1 person bought a Tata last year, but it's there for the sake of being there:D!

Anyway, the main point would of course be good old Volvo, and for a company that is Swedish, you would think they would be making more of an effort to keep emissions down(since Sweden is big into low emissions and all that left wing stuff), but they are no better nor worse than anyone else in the S40/V50/C30, but the bigger models struggle compared to BMW for example, though the 2.0D and D5 models aren't too bad at all.

Of course it's important to remember that I am only making an estimate with the Open Market Selling Price, I'm not promising this will actually happen!

Only 7 makes to go now, Saab, Seat, Skoda, Smart(do they still sell these actually here, I've only seen one the odd time), Subaru, Ssangyong and Suzuki.

budweiserfrogie

E92, keep it up. Yer nearly there. I'd guess it's like a huge jigsaw puzzle.
At times u wondered why you took on this drawn out exercise, but it may be the ammo we all need to make it well worth while.
We should possibly email all dealerships with:
"Their new recommended list prices for post july"?
Anyway i'm hopeing that by the time you get to Subaru you will be able to find prices for their new Boxer diesel released this month. I've only found UK list prices so far and am weighing up the new Subaru Legacy or the new Honda Accord both in Tourer version, & both of similar price.
Great work!!! Yer either a workaholic or a glutton for punnishment.

E92

budweiserfrogie wrote: »

E92, keep it up. Yer nearly there. I'd guess it's like a huge jigsaw puzzle.
At times u wondered why you took on this drawn out exercise, but it may be the ammo we all need to make it well worth while.
We should possibly email all dealerships with:
"Their new recommended list prices for post july"?
Anyway i'm hopeing that by the time you get to Subaru you will be able to find prices for their new Boxer diesel released this month. I've only found UK list prices so far and am weighing up the new Subaru Legacy or the new Honda Accord both in Tourer version, & both of similar price.
Great work!!! Yer either a workaholic or a glutton for punnishment.

If I can get prices for the diesel Subarus then I'll post them, otherwise I'll just put in the CO2 data. They do something like 151 g/km in the Legacy, which is competitive, especially considering how Scoobys are usually poor for mpg and hence CO2. And the Accord is due for the chop soon too.

Though I am fortunate that I know some of the Excel formulae and am some way able to use computers, which makes the calculations nice and easy, the hard bit is finding CO2 data(I mean how sad would it be to memorise all that?:D), and trying to make sure that you have the most up to date model ranges available in terms of if a brand new model is on the way, what models are presently offered etc, the rest of what you said is probably true:D!

ninty9er

E92, have you got a PayPal.

You've put so much work into this (23000+ views too) that I reckon people wouldn't be avers to bunging you a few quid...myself included...I've a useless PP with only €3 in it going to no use.

E92

ninty9er wrote: »

E92, have you got a PayPal.

You've put so much work into this (23000+ views too) that I reckon people wouldn't be avers to bunging you a few quid...myself included...I've a useless PP with only €3 in it going to no use.

Well thanks for the compliment, but I don't want nothing, at the end of the day if people know what they should be paying and people are informed about what's happening and can do something then that is payment if you like in itself;)! Though I would never say no to a free bottle of Miller(I hate it on draught, or out of a can, but it is uber nice when it's in a bottle chilled):D!

E92

Another 2 done, just 5 left now, it has just occurred to me that for some reason I never included Lotus, what kind of a car enthusiast leaves out Lotus:D?

Saabs lifeline of Biopower models is about to disappear very soon, just as well they have frugal enough diesels which as it turns out should come close enough to the FFVs on price(though there is a lot less power, although more torque and a lot more mpg).

As for Seat, all I can say is using some of the older engines in the VAG range has it's consequences, and they're not good!

Seth Brundle

I Googled an image for miller and there is bound to be something there for you - NSFW!

-Chris-

E92 wrote: »

Though I would never say no to a free bottle of Miller(I hate it on draught, or out of a can, but it is uber nice when it's in a bottle chilled):D!

Done!

Consider this an IOU for 1 (one) bottle of Miller beer - chilled.

E92

Here's 2 more, Lotus and Skoda, what kind of a car enthusiast forgets that you can buy a Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious:D in this country?

Anyway Skoda is there too, not really sure if there was a lot of point in putting in prices for the Superb when I know the new one is due to première in March, but I suppose anyone who wants to import one from the UK might find it useful.

Only Ssangyong, Subaru(definitely next, what kind of car enthusiast leaves out one of the most famous car makes in the world till the end), and last but not least, Suzuki. I'll put these up during the weekend.

jasonb

Hi all...

I've done my best to read through this thread as I didn't want to ask a question that had already been asked. So please forgive me if I'm doing that...

I'm looking to buy a Prius. According to E92's excellent spreadsheet, the Prius VRT will go up approx. €525, but there's a chance it could qualify for 'up to €2500' from the VRT rebates. Have any details been released yet about the Hybrid Rebates?

From what I can see, the Motor Tax on the Prius will be €100 a year from July, as as far as I know it's in Band A of Emissions. It would currently be €343 ( as its engine is a petrol 1.5Ltr ).

So, I reckon it's better for me to wait til July to buy this car, I'll definitely have cheaper Motor Tax and I'd reasonably expect to get enough of a VRT rebate to bring the price down too. Is that right?

Also, I find it interesting that cars are being advertised on the radio with special VRT rates ( as they're hybrids etc. ), but 'only until July, so don't delay!'. I'm guessing that for some of these cars they'll actually be cheaper in July, but the dealers are just trying to drum up business?

J.

Seth Brundle

I think that the VRT rebate is being removed and replaced with a new rebate of (up to?) €2,500.
found this:

(from http://www.budgetforums.com/analysis/?jp=eysnqlcwey&cat=E)
At present, purchasers of hybrid and flexi-fuel cars can avail of a 50% VRT rebate. This scheme will continue until the end of June and from thereon, they will get an exemption of up to €2,500 on their VRT bill which will be based on the new emissions grading scheme.

Stevie Dakota

Jason, I would hold off on the Prius, a new one is one the way that will improve on the current (no pun intended) model in every way.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4212545.html

jasonb

Yes, but when will those details be released? 'Up to €2500' could mean €10! Of course, as the Prius is in the lowest Omissions Band, I'd expect to get a large chuck of the €2500, but I'd like to know for sure!

Interestingly, on the Revenue.ie website it says the 50% VRT rebate for Hybrids ended in December 07, but that link says June 08...

J.

jasonb

Hey Stevie...

Thanks for those details! It looks good, I was hoping ( in some ways ) that a new model wouldn't come out for another few years, as I knew if one was going to come out soon I'd have to consider waiting! I wonder, if it's currently due in 2009, when we might actually see it on our shores...

J.

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

Jason, I would hold off on the Prius, a new one is one the way that will improve on the current (no pun intended) model in every way.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4212545.html

Stevie Dakota

Its a tough call whether to wait or not, Hybrid technology is still in its infancy so you would expect each new model to bring big steps forward, expect more performance, better packaging and more sophisticated batteries. If it was a normal car it may not be worth waiting, but for a Hybrid? Why not get a diesel when the VRT changes, comparable economy and emissions with better performance and cheaper...

jasonb

I know, I've driven a Diesel for a few years now, but I set my heart on the Prius last year, and the downturn in the housing market has delayed me buying it ( if anyone wants a 3 Bed Bungalow in Naas, PM me! ).

I reckon, like you said, waiting for the new one might be the way to go. But it'd be a lot easier waiting til, say, Feb 09 then Dec 09, you know? It's hard to know when the car will actually arrive in Ireland...

J.

-Chris-

Can I just ask the general populace, does anyone really think that the pre-tax prices are going to stay the same??

I don't see how it's feasible.

---

From E92s figures the following is likely to happen (and E92 will readily accept that those figures are just an analysis of what should happen, not what will happen):

The Audi A6 2.0TFSI Manual will drop to €46,443
The Audi A6 2.0TFSI Auto will rise to €52,274

The Audi A6 2.0TDI Manual will drop to €44,984
The Audi A6 2.0TDI Auto will rise to €51,032

Where it used to cost €2,800 for auto in an Audi, it now costs circa €6,000!!!


The BMW 520d SE Manual will drop to €45,208
The BMW 525d SE Manual will drop to €59,454

Where it used to cost €10k to move up an engine size, it's now over €14k
I don't know what the effect of automatic will have on the price of the Beemers.


The BMW 325i SE Manual Saloon will drop from €52,850 to €48,678
The BMW 325i SE Manual Touring will drop from €54,850 to €53,326

Where it used to cost €2k to move into a Touring, now it's nearly €5k.
But if you're buying a 318i SE it changes from a €2k premium to only €1,850.

---

Ask yourself, if you were the Sales or Marketing Manager for either of these companies, would you allow anomalies like this to develop, or would you do a little pre-tax "tweaking"?
I expect there to be a lot of fiddling with figures (hopefully all profit neutral) to keep the model mixes consistent.

E92

AudiChris wrote: »

E92 will readily accept that those figures are just an analysis of what should happen, not what will happen:

Of course. But I want people to know what they should be paying, and I want people to know if someone is trousering some or all of a VRT difference and by how much. If people don't think there will be any change then the distributors/importers can get away with it, though the EU has it's rules on pre tax prices being standardised these days. And if people find that cars that should be dropping in price don't drop in price, then there is nothing stopping people getting a brand new car in the UK and availing of the possible huge savings there.

I'm certainly not saying that my prices will actually happen, I'm only merely pointing out what the prices should be;).

And if there is a lot of fiddling as per your examples, then if people continue to buy automatics in the numbers they currently do, then they will be incurring a much greater loss on automatic models(or to put in another way it would be far more profitable to sell manuals). I mean the SIMI says that in '09, 70% of new car sales will be diesel, as my Excel files show, diesels should be in many cases only a few hundred Euro or at the very most a grand dearer. Now if they keep prices the way they are they will be losing money hand over fist because even with the lower road tax, buying a diesel would still be a lot more expensive than buying a petrol.

As for the VRT savings not being passed on, well I'm sure many people would love to buy the larger engined/more powerful versions in a cars' range, but VRT and road tax based on emissions prevented them from doing so. Lots of the volume sellers e.g. 1.6 petrols are only brought in as a way to get around our soon to be abolished VRT and road tax system.

So it's in the importers interest to pass on any saving available, that way people will go for more upmarket/more powerful models, which in turn would be very profitable, after all in many cases we are paying huge money for basically a remapped ECU a la many diesels.

When the Government abolished road tax before, although I wasn't around at the time, I'm told that people did indeed buy cars with bigger engines, as there was no road tax penalty for doing so.

And I would point out to people that manufacturers already do pass on VRT savings available, just look at Volvo and Saab Flexifuel models, the flexifuel Volvos are considerably cheaper than any of the non flexifuel models, and the same goes for hybrid models, I mean the Lexus GS450 hybrid costs around €13k less than the GS430, if both were at the same VRT level, then the 450h would be a few grand dearer.

Economics says that even in the absence of the standardised pre tax prices thing what would happen if the market is left to it's own devices is that any VRT increase will be part passed on, and part absorbed, and any VRT decrease will be part passed on to the consumer, and part kept by the manufacturer, the amount passed on/absorbed depends on how price sensitive people are, it's all supply and demand and they will price things at what they think will maximise profit(and maximising profits doesn't necessarily mean keeping all the VRT saving either)!

E92

The last 3 individual files, they're now all done pretty much, there will be one grand one over the weekend with them all in one place, and to correct some of the errors made along the way, plus for those excel files without an OMSP calculation, I've put one in, so as to make my figures more realistic!

I didn't bother with Smart, they're now gone AFAIK.

I like the look of the Suzuki Swift 1.6 Sport, 143 g/km, 20% VRT, €290 road tax a year and 125 bhp in a supermini isn't a bad idea at all:D!

Of course the Ssangyongs don't fare too well unsurprisingly with their largish engines(well large for Ireland I mean really:D) and plus they sell mostly 4X4s.

Subarus were always noted for being thirsty, and the CO2 figures prove it, though the new Boxer diesel engine is as good as any rival diesel, so it will be a very wise addition to their range whenever it makes it here!

-Chris-

E92 wrote: »

The last 3 individual files, they're now all done pretty much, there will be one grand one over the weekend with them all in one place, and to correct some of the errors made along the way, plus for those excel files without an OMSP calculation, I've put one in, so as to make my figures more realistic!

I didn't bother with Smart, they're now gone AFAIK.

I like the look of the Suzuki Swift 1.6 Sport, 143 g/km, 20% VRT, €290 road tax a year and 125 bhp in a supermini isn't a bad idea at all:D!

Of course the Ssangyongs don't fare too well unsurprisingly with their largish engines(well large for Ireland I mean really:D) and plus they sell mostly 4X4s.

Subarus were always noted for being thirsty, and the CO2 figures prove it, though the new Boxer diesel engine is as good as any rival diesel, so it will be a very wise addition to their range whenever it makes it here!

Absolutely fantastic work - nice one!

Thanks again E92 (if that is your real name..) for putting in some serious effort to help everyone make better buying decisions.

copacetic

just a note for anyone who hasn't seen the latest 'autoireland' magazine, not sure of the name but it is the one Permanent TSB put out to market their car loans.

The Managing Director of BMW in Ireland is quoted as saying the BMW 520d will fall in price by over 8k.

tinkerbell

Any ideas on if the MINI Cooper will fall by quite as much as well? According to E92's calcs it should drop by over €2,000 but that's just for the basic model so the extras should drop in price too.

It seems that any MINI dealer I talk to is trying to fob me off and tell me that it's better to buy now than wait because "it'll only fall by about €800 or less probably" and then you'll have depreciation on it. Of course they don't even think about the savings I'd have on my motor tax as it's a 1.6L but after July it'll only cost €150 to tax it. There's also a price rise due in March (typical) but only by a few hundred euro.

Any advice?