New motor tax and VRT regime. Links + calculations

unkel

Threads merged...

unkel

The SIMI listing is a good find - thanks for sharing!

I've added the link in the main sticky

E92

If there any way that a Computer or Excel could be used so that we could work out the post July price and see who's passing on VRT savings to the customer, and who isn't? Instead of doing it the way we're doing it at the moment, which if we were to work out the price of every car would take so long it might as well be July? I would do the ones for the big sellers like BMW, Merc, Audi/VW, Toyota, Audi, Ford, Opel if people were interested and if someone told me what to do in Excel.

kluivert

:rolleyes:

OK ok ok ok.....

I have an Invoice here from Western Motors in Galway for a Merc CLS 320 CDI Couple bought back in May 07

Basic = 56600.00
Vat 21% = 11886.00
VRT = 26964.00

Total = 95450.00

I understand, my eyes have been opened I cant believe that, actually I can.

26964.00 for VRT rate 30% gives you 89880.00 (26964 / .30) which is the OMSP. I understand, thats incredible.

I thought it was Basic + VAT = 68486.00 and then VRT at 30% which would give you 20545.80.

Sorry guys.

Just goes to show that the older you get the wiser you get.

Sorry Unkel. I cant believe that, thats the bastards like.

unkel

E92 wrote: »

If there any way that a Computer or Excel could be used so that we could work out the post July price and see who's passing on VRT savings to the customer, and who isn't?

All we need is make, model, old retail price, CO2 rating, engine size, new retail price. If someone would give me a list of all cars with this data (flat text file or excel) when the time comes, I can do all the calculations needed...

magentis

so if a person was to get his new car in march and not tax it until july,which rate would he pay?

unkel

kluivert wrote: »

Sorry Unkel. I cant believe that, thats the bastards like.

No worries - it is damn' confusing!

magentis wrote: »

so if a person was to get his new car in march and not tax it until july,which rate would he pay?

No. The rates are based on the registration date of the car, not on the date it is being taxed for the first time

E92

magentis wrote: »

so if a person was to get his new car in march and not tax it until july,which rate would he pay?

Anything registered before July is the old system. Anything registered after July is the new system. It doesn't matter when you get the car, what matters is the date of registration.


As for new car sales, I've been hearing on the news that they are not expecting April to June to be extremely quiet indeed, but sales for the first quarter should be pretty much the same as normal, and a big surge again in July as people make hay with the savings for most diesels and some petrols like the Honda Civic(exculding the Type-R) and the 4 and 6 cylinder BMW range in the 1,3 5 and 6 series range(excluding the 135i and 335i).

alias no.9

CO2 listings here but merging the two data sets will be a bit of a nightmare

magentis

ah well.
i suppose it would be a long four months to try chance it.
i would probably get caught on the last day of june.

E92

kluivert wrote: »

Sorry guys.

Just goes to show that the older you get the wiser you get.

Sorry Unkel. I cant believe that, thats the bastards like.

Not the end of the world, there have been plenty of others that made the same mistake. It's why I firmly believe that Irish people don't realise how much the Government rips them off with VRT.

All that said, because some cars are still being sold at a lower pre tax price than elsewhere in Europe, the savings that some people are expecting will not materialise, because no doubt some makers will seize the opportunity to standardise the pre VRT price(they are required to in any event because of the EU's Block Exemption rules anyway).

magentis

E92 wrote: »

Not the end of the world, there have been plenty of others that made the same mistake. It's why I firmly believe that Irish people don't realise how much the Government rips them off with VRT.

All that said, because some cars are still being sold at a lower pre tax price than elsewhere in Europe, the savings that somne people are expecting will not materialise, because no doubt some makers will seize the opportunity to standardise the pre VRT price(they are required to in any event because of the EU's Block Exemption rules anyway).

so that 2 grand on the mondeo could be whittled down to €500!
and my own car could be hit by another grand in depriciation.
i think i will go ahead with the deal im getting.
thanks for making my mind up.

unkel

E92 wrote: »

I firmly believe that Irish people don't realise how much the Government rips them off with VRT

Total tax on any car over 1.9l is 73% :eek:

I've added the way VRT and VAT are calculated to the first post in this thread for all to see. Please have a look folks if you don't believe us

kluivert

Definitely be worth putting that list together.

It would help alot of people indentify where the savings are. I mean which brands are yet again ripping us off.

E92

copacetic wrote: »

yeah, thats the list I have too, it's on most of the sites and seems mostly right but the 209bhp 2.0TDI isn't on there. people seem to think that is because this is a definite list and changes could come based on development schedules.

Just so you know the 3 series is getting a facelift late this year(the EfficientDynamics models at the moment are identical to the non EfficientDynamics ones in appearance), and one of the rumours is that the 123d's 204 bhp twin turbo diesel is making it's debut in the 3 series to coincide with this(what they are going to do with the 325d then one wonders, the 325d has 197 bhp compared to the proposed 323d which has 204 bhp).

WhatCar? is reporting that the 323d will be an addition to the 3 series range, when it gets it's facelift(the current generation 3 series will be over 3.5 years old at this stage, and BMW usually gives facelifts at around this time in a cars' product life cycle).
(I wonder will BMW insert the 2.5 found in the 523i at the moment and offer us the return of a 323i too?) I also know what model won't be offered for sale anymore(the 316i) here too!

In saying all that the 325d is 20% VRT(with a manual gearbox, 24% with an Auto, the 325i is 24% for both boxes) and post July a Coupé will cost €55,575 in M Sport trim compared to €63,515 now(in fact after July, a 325d M Sport Coupé can be had for only a shade more than the 320d in SE spec now, a 320d SE Coupé costs €55,400 at the moment), so you can be sure that this proposed 323d will be less than my calculations for the 325d, however the 123d pollutes 138 g/km at the moment, so maybe the added weight of the 3 series might push it into the 20% VRT band too(141-155 g/km is 20% VRT)?

galwaytt

sorry, maybe I've eaten too much turkey, but I can't see this.....

On Kluivert's example, I can't see the jump from 89k to 95k. I mean, there's 5570 floating around there, somewhere.......

Are we saying that VRT is xx% on the List Price (the out-the-door-price)? This must be the case, because applying the VRT on the examples above (cost+VAT), and the BMW on page 1, never gives you the VRT amount actually being forked over.....

If this is so, who makes up the List Price - importer/dealer? And what's to stop them lowering the list, to reduce the tax, but keeping the bottom line intact? the 'basic' quoted above by Kluivert - is that the amount charged by the dealer to the customer, or the importer to the dealer...........and it's he who has the 5570?

I can't believe something this simple is so.........complicated??!

kluivert

galwaytt wrote: »

On Kluivert's example, I can't see the jump from 89k to 95k. I mean, there's 5570 floating around there, somewhere.......

I still dont understand how unkel is working out the VRT but I have an idea of what he is getting at.

You have the Cost of the Car + Vat at 21%

Then when it comes to the VRT charge this is based on Open Market Selling Price. For that make and model the VRT rate is 30%, or 26964.00 which would make the OMSP then equal to 89880.00 which I am assumin is determined by the Revenue.

Unkel can you explain why there is a difference here compared to your calculations.

Basic is the cost price without any taxes. Just the car and extras charged to the customer.

Mailman

SIMI declare RRP and OMSP to Revenue.
OMSP is RRP less 10% ignoring delivery and dealer charges.
OMSP includes VRT at whatever rate e.g. 14% i.e. 14% of the value is the VRT
so on a car with an OMSP of 10,000 the VRT component is 1400.
The RRP of that car which has an OMSP of 10,000 is 11,111.
Ignore VRT at 21% because it only confuses things because VRT is an ad valorem tax which operates in the same way regardless of how many other taxes have been levied earlier in the process. VRT is purely dependent on the RRP value declared to the Revenue and as such the distributor decides how much VRT is paid by the consumer to government.

Seth Brundle

Greens urged to do U-turn as tax hits 'clean' drivers
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/greens-urged-to-do-uturn-as-tax-hits-clean-drivers-1255743.html

Eddie Cunningham and Senan Molony
Wednesday January 02 2008

ENVIRONMENT Minister John Gormley is coming under intense pressure to change parts of the new-car tax system as thousands of motorists face a costly buying dilemma.

The Green Party has been accused of going against the spirit of the whole new system by penalising those who buy 'green' cars over the next few months on road tax while favouring those who buy gas guzzlers.

As things now stand, road tax on cars bought before July 1 will be based on engine size. From July 1, the tax will be based on emissions.

The difference could be hundreds of euro in favour of those who buy a 'green' car in July, or a gas guzzler before then, even though emission levels from either will not change.

Compounding the problem is the fact that the engine-based system will be for the life of the car. That means potential road tax bills will run to thousands of euro more for 'cleaner' cars, and less for 'dirtier' motors over that period.

The pressure is on Mr Gormley to change the system so those renewing their road tax can do so under the emissions system. This is seen as being much fairer and a far greater encouragement to buy cleaner cars.

Both industry chiefs and Opposition politicians are urging Mr Gormley to amend the rules so those renewing their road tax can avail of the new system's benefits.

Fine Gael's transport spokesman Fergus O'Dowd confirmed last night that he was receiving many complaints from would-be car buyers frustrated that they would be penalised by buying a smaller, or lower-emissions, vehicle now.

"If they buy now, they won't get any benefit -- instead they will be hit at the old rate," Mr O'Dowd said. "They are being forced to hold off, even though their need might be now.

"We believe that anyone who buys a car which is more environmentally friendly should benefit immediately."

The current apparent contradiction is coming into sharp focus as new-car buyers and sellers are heading into traditionally the busiest purchasing period of the year with major uncertainties hanging over them.

And last night one of the country's senior motoring figures said the road tax issue will have a bigger impact than the Government had thought.

Ford Ireland chief Eddie Murphy said the cost of road tax would ultimately have an effect on a car's second-hand value.

While purchase tax had dominated discussion of the new regime, he said road tax was an annual bill that would impact heavily on a car's running costs.

Like many others in the industry he said there was no sign of any tangible level of purchasing cancellations for January. Usually a high proportion of sales this month have been pre-booked and predated the Budget measures.

Mr Murphy believed February and March would provide better indications of how many will decide to wait until July -- or even next year.

But for buyers of gas guzzlers, this is their last-chance saloon to save money. If they wait until July their purchase tax and annual road tax will increase significantly.

However, for most buyers the price difference between January and July will not be that large.

Based on 2006 purchases, around seven-in-10 were in the C to E emissions bands where changes in VRT rates will be smallest.

The Department of Finance reckons more than half the cars bought should benefit from some reduction in the VRT purchase tax.

Distributors and dealers agree there will be more shopping around and calculating this January than ever.

Some marques have already begun heavy promotions such as dropping prices to July levels.

There is every likelihood, however, that there will be a major slowdown from April.

- Eddie Cunningham and Senan Molony

E92

From the SIMI:

SIMI wrote:

Vehicle Registration Tax (VRT)


Vehicle Registration Tax is a duty payable on first registration of a motor vehicle in the State. The current rates are:

· 22.5% for cars with an engine capacity below 1400cc
· 25% for cars with an engine capacity between 1400cc and 1900cc
· 30% for cars with an engine capacity above 1900cc
· 13.3% for commercial vehicles with a gross vehicle weight below 3.5 tonnes
· €50 for other vehicles
· €2 per cc up to 350cc and €1 per cc thereafter for motorcycles.

Vehicle Registration Tax is applied ad valorem which means it is applied on a value which includes the tax itself. The value VRT is calculated on is the Open Market Selling Price (OMSP) which is essentially the expected retail price. This means that the real effect of VRT on the price of a vehicle is significantly more than the percentages outlined above: Breakdown of Tax Content of Car Prices
<1400cc 22.5% 1400cc - 1900cc 25% >1900cc 30%
Pre Tax Price € 9,970 € 15,397 € 23,624
VAT € 2,094 € 3,233 € 4,961
VRT € 3,502 € 6,210 € 12,251
Post Tax Price € 15,566 € 24,841 € 40,836
Tax as a % of Pre Tax Price 56% 61% 73%

All motor vehicles in the State must be registered with the Revenue Commissioners at which point they will receive a Registration Number. Once this number has been received your local SIMI dealer will affix the Registration plate onto your vehicle. A vehicle must be registered before it can be licensed for road tax purposes. If you purchase a new vehicle from an SIMI dealer the dealer will register your vehicle on your behalf and complete all the necessary documentation. The price of the vehicle will be inclusive of VRT and VAT.

I posted this on page 6 but nobody seems to have noticed.

Bee

smccarrick wrote: »

Yes. I thought I'd try ringing the Department of the Environment (as the roadtax rates on their website is from 2004) but wasn't able to get throught their automatic phone system

More letter writing to John Gormley this morning I think (they must think I'm a crank at this stage.......)

They won't think you are a crank, just another citizen that is being screwed royally by the Green Party,

Read this and it should give you a little incentive to keep posting as you are far from the only confused and disgruntled punter!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/greens-urged-to-do-uturn-as-tax-hits-clean-drivers-1255743.html

Mr Magnolia

Cheers kbannon. Hopefully they factor some commonsense into the equation now.

E92

I'm after working out the prices for the entire Alfa range, its not that hard to get the computer to do what you want it to do, but what does take time is of course finding the relevant CO2 data.

I'll put up seperate price lists for others in due course when I get the time to.

Anyway, here goes! It also includes the CO2 data, and the VRT rates, both old and new, so you can see where I'm getting the calculations from!

unkel

kluivert wrote: »

Unkel can you explain why there is a difference here compared to your calculations

I was afraid someone was going to bring that up. Do you really want to know?

The answer is two-fold. First there's the fact the the OMSP is a set price (declared by the distributor) with a set VRT amount which the dealer will have to pay to the revenue regardless of the actual price he is selling the car for. This is what Mailman means by saying that the OMSP is lower than the RRP. There is no such rule as "the OMSP is 10% lower than the RRP" though

The fact that this OMSP is actually lower than what the car will be sold for is there for a reason: most people get a discount when buying a car

To cut a long story short: the VRT amount on the invoice you mention is a Mickey Mouse amount. It has nothing to do with the actual VRT that the dealer has to pay to the revenue

Are there any of the resident new car salesmen around to back this up?

It's been posted before, but here's how SIMI describe the VRT calculation:

SIMI wrote:

The value VRT is calculated on is the Open Market Selling Price (OMSP) which is essentially the expected retail price.

Linky

Which is a slightly simplistic version of what really happens, I hope I have explained ok

E92

And here's another one!

Some of the savings/increases are quite dramatic here.

A 316i ES after July will cost more than a 318i ES after July(35,906 for the 316i, compared to 35,569 for the 318i)!

A 123d will drop it's price by at least €7,700.

A 118d could be as much as 8 grand cheaper.

A 520d will fall by over 10 grand if you choose an M Sport version.

A straight 6 3.0 litre 325i will fall by 5 grand if you buy an M Sport Coupé.

If you want an M5 it will cost you at least €13,500 more after July!

A 760Li will increase in price by at least €17,000, and that's before you add options to it:eek:.

kluivert

unkel wrote: »

I was afraid someone was going to bring that up. Do you really want to know?

So basicly the VRT paid on new cars is set regardless if you pay 5k or 500k. The VRT will remain the same for each particular because that is the OMSP as declared by the distributors.

Quick ?: Are we being overcharged for the basic cost of the car then? It appears so.

copacetic

E92 wrote: »

And here's another one!

Some of the savings/increases are quite dramatic here.

A 316i ES after July will cost more than a 318i ES after July(35,906 for the 316i, compared to 35,569 for the 318i)!

A 123d will drop it's price by at least €7,700.

A 118d could be as much as 8 grand cheaper.

A 520d will fall by over 10 grand if you choose an M Sport version.

A straight 6 3.0 litre 325i will fall by 5 grand if you buy an M Sport Coupé.

If you want an M5 it will cost you at least €13,500 more after July!

A 760Li will increase in price by at least €17,000, and that's before you add options to it:eek:.

cheers mate, much appreciated. if you are taking requests an audi list to compare to bmw one would be fantastic!

E92

I'll do one on Audi this evening(most likely this evening, this is an aspiration, not a promise though!), if not I will do it sometime over the weekend.

Look at previous page copacetic, there is some important info about the 3 series(it's getting a facelift and possibly a new engine too(the twin turbo from the 123d) at the end of the year).

Seth Brundle

I took the liberty of copying your BMW info onto the forum in my sig. Here is the feedback:

The prices on the attachment seem to be correct but there are a couple of things for people to be wary of:

* it assumes that manufacturers don't alter the base prices of the cars in the lower VRT categories to claw back some of the benefit. Almost immediately after the budget announcement there were noises from some distributors that they would adjust some prices because the manufacturers had been "subsidizing" the new lower emissions cars.
* in many cases the co2 output figures and prices are based on manual transmission cars. In some cases specifying auto will push the car in to the next higher rate of VRT.
* Be careful in assumptions that these reductions will be relevant to imports because BMW have introduced a lot of Euro IV compliant engines upgrades this year - a brand new 520d falls in to the 16% VRT category but a '05, '06 and most '07 520d's will be in the 24% category.
* Wheel and tyre combinations may also have an impact on the VRT category of cars that are close to the threshold of a higher VRT category.
* On the upside, the cost of options on these lower VRT categories will drop similarly because VRT is charged on factory options (one reason why currently some upgrades such as leather and big wheels are retro fitted at the dealer rather than ordered from the factory).

I have it on good authourity that BMW will increase the the base prices

unkel

BMW's marketing director has committed to passing on the savings (see article in post 52 in this thread). BMW was the first company to do so and I expect others to follow