New motor tax and VRT regime. Links + calculations

McSandwich

McSandwich wrote: »

Motor tax is charged annually so the new rates could easily be applied to all.

Just to clarify, In my opinion the new rates should be optional for existing car owners. In this way anyone with a 'high emissions' car would not be penalised (if they choose to stay with the old system). Also those owning 'low emissions' cars could move o the new system to avoid being penalised.

wilson10

I haven't read through this thread, just jumped in at the end so my tuppence worth may have already been discussed but I wouldn't be holding my breath for big reductions in new car prices in July.

My sister visited the local Toyota dealer last Saturday to look at the Aygo and Yaris with a view to changing. She is undecided whether to buy now or wait till July and whether to settle for a 1 litre or go up to a 1.2 litre.

She asked the salesman for his advice on how the price of a 1 litre and 1.2 litre might reduce with the new changes in VRT. He came out with the astounding pronouncement that it is difficult to say as it will be up to the distributors how much of the savings will be passed on to the motorist.

Does this mean that small cars are due for a substantial price increase at a time which just happens to coincide with a reduction in VRT ?

port

wilson10 wrote: »

I haven't read through this thread, just jumped in at the end so my tuppence worth may have already been discussed but I wouldn't be holding my breath for big reductions in new car prices in July.

My sister visited the local Toyota dealer last Saturday to look at the Aygo and Yaris with a view to changing. She is undecided whether to buy now or wait till July and whether to settle for a 1 litre or go up to a 1.2 litre.

She asked the salesman for his advice on how the price of a 1 litre and 1.2 litre might reduce with the new changes in VRT. He came out with the astounding pronouncement that it is difficult to say as it will be up to the distributors how much of the savings will be passed on to the motorist.

Does this mean that small cars are due for a substantial price increase at a time which just happens to coincide with a reduction in VRT ?

See E92's thread 'Expected new car price list July 08'...on page 1 of motors.

kluivert

port wrote: »

See E92's thread 'Expected new car price list July 08'...on page 1 of motors.

I got the same line from a Skoda dealer.

I will be waiting till July to see how much we get screwed by the distributors.

The idea was to pass on the savings to consumers to encourage them to buy greener cars.

blueser

Can anybody out there supply me with a straightforward answer to a simple question? I am considering buying a new 1.4 Focus hatchback so...Should I buy pre or post July? And am I right in in thinking that any changes in road tax (by the way, positive or negative for the Focus?)only apply to cars purchased after July? Thanks.

AntiRip

blueser wrote: »

Can anybody out there supply me with a straightforward answer to a simple question? I am considering buying a new 1.4 Focus hatchback so...Should I buy pre or post July? And am I right in in thinking that any changes in road tax (by the way, positive or negative for the Focus?)only apply to cars purchased after July? Thanks.

Check out here
http://www.mtp.ie/VRT.html

I think you be saving around 1.5% VRT if you waited till July. Also your road tax would be e320 per annum now compared to e430 in July

E92

blueser wrote: »

Can anybody out there supply me with a straightforward answer to a simple question? I am considering buying a new 1.4 Focus hatchback so...Should I buy pre or post July? And am I right in in thinking that any changes in road tax (by the way, positive or negative for the Focus?)only apply to cars purchased after July? Thanks.

Wait till July and get the diesel, only €100 road tax on these then, as well as more power, more economy, and shouldn't cost a whole lot more than the 1.4 does now. Even if it does cost more than a 1.4 now, come trade in, road tax and fuel cost time, will save a packet overall, so unless you are completely diesel phobic, or for some reason have to get a new car now, then there is no reason in the world why you should even contemplate buying the petrol model. Look at my sig, it will give you an idea(note that the link in my sig has the prices for the pre faceliftt Focus, so only view them as an estimation);).

Nobody is going to want a 1.4 when a post July diesel gives them more of everything for less.

The tax on a 1.4 bought now will remain unchanged foir the lifetime of the vehicle(though that might change, but if it did, a 1.4 would cost €430 to tax, the same as a post July 1.6 or even the 2.0 petrol if Ford sold them here).

The_Conductor

Labour were quite vocal in their concerns about the Motor bill when it came up in the Oireachtas today. They propose to try to introduce changes when it comes to committee in the coming weeks, particularly to allow cars purchased prior to 1.07.08 opt in to the new system (on the production of a COC- which should be made more readily available by the manufacturers for cars under 5 years of age).

S.

AntiRip

AntiRip wrote: »

Check out here
http://www.mtp.ie/VRT.html

I think you be saving around 1.5% VRT if you waited till July. Also your road tax would be e320 per annum now compared to e430 in July

sorry i mistook it as being petrol

blueser

AntiRip wrote: »

Check out here
http://www.mtp.ie/VRT.html

I think you be saving around 1.5% VRT if you waited till July. Also your road tax would be e320 per annum now compared to e430 in July

Cheers pal.

blueser

E92 wrote: »

Wait till July and get the diesel, only €100 road tax on these then, as well as more power, more economy, and shouldn't cost a whole lot more than the 1.4 does now. Even if it does cost more than a 1.4 now, come trade in, road tax and fuel cost time, will save a packet overall, so unless you are completely diesel phobic, or for some reason have to get a new car now, then there is no reason in the world why you should even contemplate buying the petrol model. Look at my sig, it will give you an idea(note that the link in my sig has the prices for the pre faceliftt Focus, so only view them as an estimation);).

Nobody is going to want a 1.4 when a post July diesel gives them more of everything for less.

The tax on a 1.4 bought now will remain unchanged foir the lifetime of the vehicle(though that might change, but if it did, a 1.4 would cost €430 to tax, the same as a post July 1.6 or even the 2.0 petrol if Ford sold them here).

Thanks for the info pal. Very informative. Seeing as I don't put up a very high mileage, the economy thing isn't so much of an issue as it would be for someone who lives in their car. It was more to do with the purchase price and the road tax question. According to Ford's Irish website the 1.6 diesel is some €3k dearer than the 1.4 petrol. Would the price differential between the 2 be so much different post July? It is another factor to bear in mind. But at least I got some clear info to help me. Once again, thanks E92.

E92

blueser wrote: »

Thanks for the info pal. Very informative. Seeing as I don't put up a very high mileage, the economy thing isn't so much of an issue as it would be for someone who lives in their car. It was more to do with the purchase price and the road tax question. According to Ford's Irish website the 1.6 diesel is some €3k dearer than the 1.4 petrol. Would the price differential between the 2 be so much different post July? It is another factor to bear in mind. But at least I got some clear info to help me. Once again, thanks E92.

Click the link in my sig. It answers your question, well sort of anyway:D(the diesel should cost only a few hundred euro more than the petrol model does now, and the Ford Ireland MD Eddie Murphy implied recently in the Auto Ireland magazine that Ford would be passing on the VRT savings to customers).

So far the only people that are going to be passing on the VRT savings in full are BMW, and Ford have implied that they will too.

blueser

E92 wrote: »

Click the link in my sig. It answers your question, well sort of anyway:D(the diesel should cost only a few hundred euro more than the petrol model does now, and the Ford Ireland MD Eddie Murphy implied recently in the Auto Ireland magazine that Ford would be passing on the VRT savings to customers).

So far the only people that are going to be passing on the VRT savings in full are BMW, and Ford have implied that they will too.

Again, many thanks.

McSandwich

smccarrick wrote: »

Labour were quite vocal in their concerns about the Motor bill when it came up in the Oireachtas today. They propose to try to introduce changes when it comes to committee in the coming weeks, particularly to allow cars purchased prior to 1.07.08 opt in to the new system (on the production of a COC- which should be made more readily available by the manufacturers for cars under 5 years of age).

S.

I sent an email regarding the motor tax changes to all TDs and Ministers concerned with the Environment and Transport. Thomas Broughan from Labour was the only one who took any interest. He wrote to Gormley and Ryan on my behalf and asked a Parliamentary Question. The repies I received from Gormley an Ryan were much the same as the (obviously standard) answer quoted below. All I can say is God help the next Green **** who calls to my door looking for a vote. The vrt and tax reforms were much needed and a good idea, it's just a pity they were so badly thought out in a typically half arsed way (for example CO2 emissions data has been available since 1997).

Chun an Aire Comhshaoil, Oidhreachta agus Rialtais Áitiúil:
To the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government:


To ask the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government his views on including fuel efficient cars bought prior to 1 July 2008 in the new motor tax regime for fuel efficient cars to be introduced at that time; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

- Thomas P. Broughan.

For WRITTEN answer on Wednesday, 30th January, 2008.


REPLY

Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Mr. Gormley):

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1307, 1308, 1319, 1326, 1342, 1343, 1351 and 1371 together.

Budget 2007 announced proposals for new motor tax and vehicle registration tax (VRT) systems to reward low CO2 emitting and penalise high CO2 emitting, cars. It was made clear at the time that the new system would apply to new cars and pre-owned imported cars. A public consultation process was held from December 2006 to March 2007 following press notices inviting public submissions.

Both the public consultation process and subsequent press comment pointed to the desirability of members of the public having reasonable notice of any tax changes being introduced and the need for an acceptable lead-in period for the motor trade.
It was against this background that 1 July 2008 was chosen as the starting date for both the new motor tax and VRT systems.

The aim of the new system is to influence the purchasing decisions of consumers in the future. From 1 July 2008, anyone buying a new or pre-owned imported car will be aware of both the motor tax and vehicle registration tax (VRT) rates which will apply, based on CO2 emissions. In order to promote awareness of the new CO2-based motor tax and VRT systems, and to influence purchasing decisions of car buyers, a new mandatory labelling system will be introduced which will be accompanied by an active public information campaign.

Existing cars were purchased in the knowledge that the basis of assessment for both motor tax and VRT was engine capacity (c.c.) and not CO2 emissions. In view of the fact that the CO2 rating for similar size cars (in terms of engine capacity) can vary as much as 45%, it would be inequitable to apply the new CO2 system to the existing fleet. It would also be unfair to penalise car owners for a purchasing decision made in the past.

In addition, it is essential that there is certainty and accuracy in term of CO2 ratings. Under both the new motor tax and VRT systems, the CO2 rating will be based on the car’s Certificate of Conformity, under EU type approval law. This CO2 rating will be captured initially by the Revenue Commissioners at vehicle registration tax stage and passed on to the national vehicle file. In the absence of a certificate and the Revenue Commissioners not being satisfied as to the CO2 rating the motorist will be required to pay the highest motor tax rate. The same scenario will apply to VRT in relation to a CO2 rating that cannot be obtained. CO2 ratings are not available for the vast bulk of the existing fleet.

Finally, I understand that the new motor tax systems based on CO2 emissions introduced by Cyprus, Netherlands, Portugal, United Kingdom and Norway were confined to new or pre-owned imported cars. In addition, at EU level the proposal for a Council Directive on passenger car related taxes envisages its application to newly registered cars only.

smoc

I was told today that diesel cars are the only cars really getting the benefit from this scheme. the petrol cars are only slightly cheaper

The_Conductor

blueser wrote:

Thanks for the info pal. Very informative. Seeing as I don't put up a very high mileage, the economy thing isn't so much of an issue as it would be for someone who lives in their car. It was more to do with the purchase price and the road tax question. According to Ford's Irish website the 1.6 diesel is some €3k dearer than the 1.4 petrol. Would the price differential between the 2 be so much different post July? It is another factor to bear in mind. But at least I got some clear info to help me. Once again, thanks E92.

A low mileage diesel, even if its a few years old, is emminently more saleable than a similar petrol- and most probably worth far more than the initial price differential (the lower annual roadtax of course being a factor here too). While the economy thing may not be a big thing to you- it will be a big aspect when you go to resell the car in the future.

copacetic

smoc wrote: »

I was told today that diesel cars are the only cars really getting the benefit from this scheme. the petrol cars are only slightly cheaper

you were told wrong, you can't make generalisations like that. A lot of the BMW petrol cars are coming down by 10%. See the information on thread.

Kevin Heenan

Just looked at todays Irish Times where Gorm the Green Goon is adament that there will be no retrospective taxation of existing vehicles which would benifit fron the new CO2 system. He says "threre is no authencated CO2 data for the majority of the existing fleet". I am still trying to find an "official" in the Dept. of Transport or The Revenue who is able to state what will be acceptable documentation of proof of CO2 emissions to them. The SMMT in the UK must have got their data from somewhere though so it seems that it's going to be a difficult job for anyone importing from July onwards to prove emissions values. By the way I tried to contact Audi UK about the infamous Certificate of Confromity but thier website will only accept enquiries from within the UK.:mad:

-Chris-

Kevin Heenan wrote: »

Just looked at todays Irish Times where Gorm the Green Goon is adament that there will be no retrospective taxation of existing vehicles which would benifit fron the new CO2 system. He says "threre is no authencated CO2 data for the majority of the existing fleet". I am still trying to find an "official" in the Dept. of Transport or The Revenue who is able to state what will be acceptable documentation of proof of CO2 emissions to them. The SMMT in the UK must have got their data from somewhere though so it seems that it's going to be a difficult job for anyone importing from July onwards to prove emissions values. By the way I tried to contact Audi UK about the infamous Certificate of Confromity but thier website will only accept enquiries from within the UK.:mad:

I believe the COC would be entirely adequate for this purpose, and anyone who's saying otherwise is trying to wiggle out of actually doing something about the retrospective-ness of the legislation (taking the easy way out).

CO2 figures would of course be available for the vast majority of the Irish fleet - since 2001, European law has required the COC to have CO2 information afaik!

Cute_Button

Kevin Heenan wrote: »

I am still trying to find an "official" in the Dept. of Transport or The Revenue who is able to state what will be acceptable documentation of proof of CO2 emissions to them.

From Eddie Kiernan - Private Secretary to John Gormley:

"The Vehicle Registration Tax Register and the National Vehicle and Driver File databases (NVDF) only started gathering data on CO2 emissions from cars from May 2005."

and

"it is essential that there be certainty and accuracy in term of the CO2 ratings. Under both the new motor tax and VRT systems, the CO2 ratings for cars will be obtained from the model's Certificate of Conformity, under EU type approval law".

and

"Existing cars were purchased in the knowledge that the basis for assessment of both motor tax and VRT was engine size (cc) and not CO2 emissions. In view of the fact that the CO2 rating for similar size cars (in terms of engine capacity) can vary as much as 45%, it is impossible to apply the new CO2 system retrospectively to the existing fleet."

So- any car first registered post May 2005 should have the information on file- and for everything else a COC is needed. They seem to think that the only way to apply it to any older cars is by a blanket lumping of vehicles into particular bands- it would be interesting to see if its possible to actually source COCs for older vehicles- thus getting the information that they say is unavailable?

Bee

Kevin Heenan wrote: »

Just looked at todays Irish Times where Gorm the Green Goon is adament that there will be no retrospective taxation of existing vehicles which would benifit fron the new CO2 system. He says "threre is no authencated CO2 data for the majority of the existing fleet". I am still trying to find an "official" in the Dept. of Transport or The Revenue who is able to state what will be acceptable documentation of proof of CO2 emissions to them. The SMMT in the UK must have got their data from somewhere though so it seems that it's going to be a difficult job for anyone importing from July onwards to prove emissions values. By the way I tried to contact Audi UK about the infamous Certificate of Confromity but thier website will only accept enquiries from within the UK.:mad:

"Gorm the Green Goon"

My work colleagues call him "John Gormless" or "John "40 Watt" Gormley" after his CFL bulb fiasco. Just imagine some people actually voted in these Gobsheens:D:D:D

I wonder how their supporters who bought into the Green nonsense and already purchased Diesels or other low emission cars prior to July 08 enjoy being screwed by these hypocrites:rolleyes:

Have a read of this one apparently it would only cost a miserly 27 big ones to backdate the motor tax etc

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/motoring/emission-tax-regime-will-punish-green-drivers-1293992.html

Snip from the story
"THOSE who bought greener cars this year, and since 2006, have been severely punished by the Government's new tax plans, a leading motor industry figure claimed last night.

And for the first time he said a mere €27m -- a relative pittance in the overall context of the billions motorists pay in taxes every year -- would undo the injustice for tens of thousands of buyers stretching back to January 2006."

Kevin Heenan

Cute_Button wrote: »

From Eddie Kiernan - Private Secretary to John Gormley:

"The Vehicle Registration Tax Register and the National Vehicle and Driver File databases (NVDF) only started gathering data on CO2 emissions from cars from May 2005."

and

"it is essential that there be certainty and accuracy in term of the CO2 ratings. Under both the new motor tax and VRT systems, the CO2 ratings for cars will be obtained from the model's Certificate of Conformity, under EU type approval law".

and

"Existing cars were purchased in the knowledge that the basis for assessment of both motor tax and VRT was engine size (cc) and not CO2 emissions. In view of the fact that the CO2 rating for similar size cars (in terms of engine capacity) can vary as much as 45%, it is impossible to apply the new CO2 system retrospectively to the existing fleet."

So- any car first registered post May 2005 should have the information on file- and for everything else a COC is needed. They seem to think that the only way to apply it to any older cars is by a blanket lumping of vehicles into particular bands- it would be interesting to see if its possible to actually source COCs for older vehicles- thus getting the information that they say is unavailable?

I wonder does this mean that there is a database with CO2 data on the variuos MODELS of vehicles registered post May 2005 and could this data be used to calculate the VRT / Motor tax on a vehicle first registered post May 2005 in the UK and imported to Ireland after next July. Personally I'm beginning to think not and that the Gobsheens supported by the feel and fallers will not make it easy for anyone intending to import one of the more environmentally friendly motors from across the water after the system changes.

Bee

Kevin Heenan wrote: »

I wonder does this mean that there is a database with CO2 data on the variuos MODELS of vehicles registered post May 2005 and could this data be used to calculate the VRT / Motor tax on a vehicle first registered post May 2005 in the UK and imported to Ireland after next July. Personally I'm beginning to think not and that the Gobsheens supported by the feel and fallers will not make it easy for anyone intending to import one of the more environmentally friendly motors from across the water after the system changes.

Unless the the Greens are getting "personal political donations" from the motor trade (It doesn't seem to bother them that their mate Bertie is!) they should not be bothered about blocking second hand cars from overseas.

There are databases available out there with all Co2 car emissions data.

"Certificate of Conformity

A European type-approval certificate is needed in order to register a vehicle in a member state of the European Union. Since 1995/1996 manufacturers have provided Certificates of Conformity with new vehicles. The certificate states all technical specifications of the vehicle plus the EC type-approval number. "

Have a look at this link, my good friend personally imported a second hand car from Holland

Read this site, they have access to a full Certificate of Conformity database
If John The Gorm sez they can't do the same for Ireland he is either telling major porkies or is an idiot. Both I reckon!

http://www.vwe.nl/Page/Profielen/Overig%20Internationaal.aspx/?sc_lang=en

IanOCol

Manufacturers like Daimler Benz, BMW, VAG, Opel, Volvo, Saab, Peugeot and Renault are able to provide you with relevant Co2 figures for all cars with catalytic converters and Diesel powered cars from 1990 onwards, regardless whether there is a CoC or not.

Just check with manufacturers.

E92

The Sunday Times today has ads for a Merc E200 Kompressor, they're saying it will go up by at least €5,000 in price in July.

And Lexus are telling us to get our hybrids before July too, so that you can avail of the 50% VRT rebate too.

Similarly, Volvo are pointing out how much money you can save by buying an S80 or V70 2.0F, or C30/S40/V50 1.8F(flexifuel models) now rather than July, and even telling us how much more a diesel equivalent will cost post July than a flexifuel model does now.

IanOCol

E92 wrote: »

The Sunday Times today has ads for a Merc E200 Kompressor, they're saying it will go up by at least €5,000 in price in July.

And Lexus are telling us to get our hybrids before July too, so that you can avail of the 50% VRT rebate too.

Similarly, Volvo are pointing out how much money you can save by buying an S80 or V70 2.0F, or C30/S40/V50 1.8F(flexifuel models) now rather than July, and even telling us how much more a diesel equivalent will cost post July than a flexifuel model does now.

What do you expect?? Sure they'll tell us that buying now is cheaper. They want to sell cars NOW, not save your money later.
And yes, most Diesel will be more expesive than petrol fired engines.

E92

IanOCol wrote: »

Sure they'll tell us that buying now is cheaper

That's because in the cases mentioned by me,what they're saying is completely true as it happens.

Kevin Heenan

I sent an email to the Dept of Transport (link on Revenue Comms website) requesting info
on what would be acceptable as a Certificate of Conformity when importing a used car after July the 1st. The mailed me back (quite promptly I must say) telling me I should get on to the RSA vehicle standards section for this info. I've just done that but I reckon the merry go round is about to pick up speed!

The_Conductor

Kevin Heenan wrote: »

what would be acceptable as a Certificate of Conformity when importing a used car

A certificate of conformity is a specific document- like a birthcert for your car- its unique to each vehicle. The vehicle manufacturer supplies this document. It normally costs Sterling £80 (depending on the manufacturer).

S.

Beta Ray Bill

I really HATE the new tax system.

Its a load of rubbish to keep the tree huggers happy.

I have wanted a Lancer Evolution for as long as I can remember. I'm finally in a position where I can afford to buy one (25 this year and new job) and then this **** comes along and ****s it right up for me.

E2000 for tax, what a rip off! and on top of that I have to pay tolls if i want to use the Motorway.

And the biggest laugh of all is that I get the train to work everyday, I would only use it on weekends. therefore someone with a class B or C car who drives to work everyday would actually put more CO2 into the air than me! but I have to pay more! how is that fair?

Why is the tax not in the fuel. that is the fairest way to do it. the more you burn the more you pay. simple