value of homemade protein and carb shake?

maradona10

ive been trying soya milk and silken tofu cubes(from the chinese supermarkets) in a blender along with fruit( bananas,strawberries).

use the tofu to replace eggs.

any opinions on the value of this as a protein and carb shake

rubadub

I dont think many rate soya protein highly if it is muscle building you are after.

Chicken & turkey is good, red meat too, though pork is not meant to be great.

And dont bother with eggs in blenders, if thats what you were doing. You get more available protein from eggs when they are cooked- and they taste nicer too.

Penaut butter is an easy way to get protein too, get natural stuff, 1kg for ~€5.50 in holland & barret.

I have whey protein, skim milk, & frozen fruit for smoothies. Some keep saying get protein from whole foods, but whey is very good for muscle building, and a little can have good effect. And I think soya milk & tofu is about a "unwhole-food" as whey protein is.

pwd

Soya products are supposed to increase oestrogen levels which would have a negative effect on weight training. I don't know how much you have to eat for the increase to be significant.
Peanut butter is beneficial for building muscle because of it is high in calories and very nutritious, but it should be noted that nuts do not contain complete protein like eggs, meat, whey etc. You can get complete protein by combining nuts with grains and pulses or beans.

I haven't heard that pork is supposed to be a poor choice. Do you know why? It's a natural source of zinc, which is an important mineral for people doing weight training, and I would have thought it would be equivalent to other meat as a protein source.

rubadub

pwd wrote: »

I haven't heard that pork is supposed to be a poor choice. Do you know why? It's a natural source of zinc, which is an important mineral for people doing weight training, and I would have thought it would be equivalent to other meat as a protein source.

I am not sure, it was in another thread and a few said it. And I dont think it was just pointing out processed ham or sausages. It might not have been very bad, but I think people were saying chicken and red meat were a lot more beneficial.

I do not like the idea of sausage meat or processed ham. I used to make pork burgers or sausages by liquidising pork chops. I since gave up after reading the others are better. I get round steak, trim the fat and make my own burgers or meatballs, cheaper and lower in fat than "low fat mince" which is made with god knows what cuts.

I have heard zinc is good for test production, and suppose a little pork is going to give a more diverse protein mix.

Degsy

No reason why pork wouldnt work as well as any other meat.In fact,pig meat is closely related to human flesh in structure.The only problem i could see with pork is it can contain quite high levels of fat,but thats where the flavour is IMO.

smellslikeshoes

I wouldn't worry about the estrogen raising effects of soya, It has been blown out of all proportions by the internet. Its been a staple of eastern foods for a long time and would probably be more documented if it was a serious problem. Its a good source of protein not quite as good as animal proteins but who wants a shake made out of a steak eh?

maradona10

rubadub i wasnt aware of peanut butter in holland and barret.

im using the kelkin brand and have used panda. are these ok

never heard of the oestrogen rasing effects of tofu

i thought it was one of these new super foods

its hard to know what to eat these days

pwd

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/articles/soya_jola_chudy.pdf

interesting, if a little sensationalist.

maradona10

just read it. it looks like its back to whole fat milk and pork chops and gravy for me

Hanley

I don't see why there's a need to reinvent the wheel in the hopes of finding some magical combinatino that everyone else has missed out on up until now....

maradona10

when u can guarantee me whats in protein drinks ill listen

theres a lot of badly informed and impressionable people on this forum

there is more wonder supplements being quoted than any wonder foods

g'em

maradona10 wrote: »

when u can guarantee me whats in protein drinks ill listen

Nutrition X Pro X Whey ingredients list:


Not a wonder supplement, just whey, a cheese manufacturing by-product. As for the guarantee, well I can give you the owner of the company's phone number and you can ask him yourself? Irish owned, Irish made, EU certified.

maradona10

that doesnt prove to me what the powder contains.

its just a label

g'em

maradona10 wrote: »

theres a lot of badly informed and impressionable people on this forum

lol, you don't say... :rolleyes:

Hanley

maradona10 wrote: »

when u can guarantee me whats in protein drinks ill listen

theres a lot of badly informed and impressionable people on this forum

there is more wonder supplements being quoted than any wonder foods

Eh what?

It seems like you're saying the majority of protein supplements are full of drugs? Well I've news for you, I compete in a drug tested sport with very regular testing and last time I was tested I had used 4 or 5 different products over the week beforehand and some of the day of the comp too, and guess what, my results were negative.

I wouldn't put my reputation at risk if I thought there was any chance of getting a false positive from supplements. You're a GAA or soccer player right? Do you guys even get tested?? If you don't then it should be of no concern to you anyway.

The only badly informed person is yourself I'm afraid. You seem to be under the impression all or the majority of supplements have illicit substances in them.

maradona10

no im not saying that but when someone needs to take 4 or 5 different products to compete somethings amiss.

a person can only digest 25g of protein at a time. why the need for big drums of powder. make a natural shake or have a sandwich

pwd

I'm pretty sure steroids cost a lot more than whey protein

Hanley

maradona10 wrote: »

no im not saying that but when someone needs to take 4 or 5 different products to compete somethings amiss.

a person can only digest 25g of protein at a time. why the need for big drums of powder. make a natural shake or have a sandwich

My god man. Every post you put up further erodes your credability. For your own sake you need to stop.

I'm not even going to address your assertation about the bodies ability to digest a perfectly quantifiable amount of protein (and perfectly round amount too, what a coincidence) because it's so ridiculous.

Could you please explain how taking supplements and competeing means something is "amiss"?

For the record, the products were;
pre workout shake
post workout shake
creatine mono
whey
protein bars

pwd

maradona10 wrote: »

a person can only digest 25g of protein at a time.

what's your source on this?

maradona10

yes but there is no guarantee that those products are not contaminated

im not saying that people are taking protein shakes in the hope of them being contaminated

im trying to make the point that when people ask for advice on food/bulking up etc protein powders are always advised. as a person can only digest 25g at a time this need can be met by food alone. protein powders primary use to my knowledge is to help people who are dieting maintain muscle while keeping there calorie intake where it should be

also hanley its true that we are not tested but we should be. im not havin a go at you by the way but i cant understand how that many supplements are deemed necessary

Latchy

I do recall reading somwere that to much protien is bad for you ........

g'em

maradona10 wrote: »

yes but there is no guarantee that those products are not contaminated

Oh Lordy. Like I said, Nutrition X is an Irish company. All its products are strictly regulated:

Nutrition X products are tested to E.F.S.I.S and H.A.C.C.P standards. Every ingredient entering our production facility is tested for quality and impurities. All ingredients used in our products are IOC/WADA compliant and manufactured similarly in an IOC/WADA friendly environment.

EFSIS = European Food Safety Inspection Service
HACCP = Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Point (FDA program)
IOC = International Olympic Committee
WADA - World Anti Doping Agency

I took similar products to Hanley at my last drug-tested comp too, and hey, whaddya know, I passed the urine test :rolleyes:

Sure, there's a tiny number out there that are contaminated, but they are VERY much in the minority. All the big reliable brands will be quality tested in the same way that Nut X is.

As for the protein, around 50g per serving is the most your body can absorb, but that's influenced by activity level, age, body composition etc. And for an otherwise healthy individual (with no previous history of renal or liver disease and/ or weakness) there's really no harm from excess protein consumption, it just gets pi$$ed out.

Hanley

maradona10 wrote: »

yes but there is no guarantee that those products are not contaminated

Yes there is. How could they become contaminated? Do you think protein powders are made in the same labs as anabolics and cross contamination occurs??

im trying to make the point that when people ask for advice on food/bulking up etc protein powders are always advised. as a person can only digest 25g at a time this need can be met by food alone.

Again, this is wrong.

also hanley its true that we are not tested but we should be. im not havin a go at you by the way but i cant understand how that many supplements are deemed necessary

With all due respect, you don't know why it's neccessary because you don't compete at a high level in a strength sport (and I never said that it was absolutely neccessary). You don't know how badly your body gets beat up when you're training for national and world championships. I would imagine you don't know what it feels like to get under a bar knowing that even an inch out of the groove and you risk SERIOUS injury. It's a big burden to have on your mind. And if I choose to ease that burden and risk of injury by taking a variety of supplements so that I'm recovered enough to train then I don't think I need to make any justification as to why.

maradona10

with respect i think the taking of so many supplements is more for psychological reasons then

training/playing for team sports involve lots of cardio work, weights and physical contact. injury risk is higher. this can be avoided with proper recovery and nutrition. supplements are never advised

on the question of 25g protein. thats what the american college of sports medicine says

smellslikeshoes

maradona10 wrote: »

with respect i think the taking of so many supplements is more for psychological reasons then

training/playing for team sports involve lots of cardio work, weights and physical contact. injury risk is higher. this can be avoided with proper recovery and nutrition. supplements are never advised

on the question of 25g protein. thats what the american college of sports medicine says

No point in throwing out figures unless you provide a link to a study or where it says the information.

columok

Your posts are giving me a headache. Or maybe that's the heavy dosage of protein (over 25g now) that I just subjected my poor renal system to...

training/playing for team sports involve lots of cardio work, weights and physical contact. injury risk is higher. this can be avoided with proper recovery and nutrition. supplements are never advised

Depends on the team sport. I can bet my team sport has a lot different risk of injury than yours... Similarily the risks of powerlifting are different again. My sports now rugby formerly mma both have a lot of chronic injuries that when training hard supplements can really help

on the question of 25g protein. thats what the american college of sports medicine says

I'm sorry but your figure is senseless. Do you only eat 1/2 chicken breasts just in case you overdo it on protein. To come out with a black and white rule about the many different types of bodies is naive at best.

maradona10

columok excess protein cant be stored in the body. its passed out through the kidneys

thats why small protein meals throughout the day are recommended

every person needs 1g of protein per lb of body weight to maintain

theres no point in eating a 16oz steak, it just is waste. eat 2 6-8oz though at seperate times and your ok

maradona10

ill post the links to this info tomorrow or provide the references

Hanley

maradona10 wrote: »

columok excess protein cant be stored in the body. its passed out through the kidneys

thats why small protein meals throughout the day are recommended

every person needs 1g of protein per lb of body weight to maintain

theres no point in eating a 16oz steak, it just is waste. eat 2 6-8oz though at seperate times and your ok

As I said previously, every post further erodes your credability. Put down the books, spend some time under the bar. And come back in 6 months and tell us what you've learned.

rubadub

maradona10 wrote: »

why the need for big drums of powder. make a natural shake or have a sandwich

People buy big drums for the same reasons they buy big packs of washing powder- it has a long shelf life and it is cheaper to buy in bulk, also whey can be in "out of the way" shops

You are eating tofu & soya products yourself, they are about as "natural" as a whey shake. Whey is not some pharmaceutical synthetic product- it is a dairy based product, like cheese, butter or skim milk powder.

Also if you eat a steak it is not fully absorbed/digested immediately, the protein goes in slowly as it is digested. This is a reason some take whey, it is absorbed quickly after a workout.

columok

rubadub wrote:

Whey is not some pharmaceutical synthetic product

Idiot! Whey is a chemical and we all know that chemicals are unnatural and bad...;)

Maradona,

You coming out with a magic number for protein absorbtion will always be rubbish. How can you claim that every body (with the massive number of variations possible in the human body) behaves in the same way. That doesn’t make sense; study or no study. That’s like saying EVERY man needs to eat 3000 calories a day. It’s senseless.

There are some pretty compelling reasons to use whey as a means of increasing your protein intake.

-It’s quick to prepare requiring no cooking facilities
-It’s cheap
-It’s convenient
-It’s a better ethical alternative than buying cheap chicken
-It his the system quickly

I’d much prefer to have a dude with a giant barbeque of meat follow me around all day handing me a fine selection of tasty lean meats but that isn’t possible. I work 9-6 with no cooking facilities and have little apart from spar chicken fillet baguettes in my neighbourhood. I train then at 7.30 and get home late so how am I meant to get whole foods prepared to bring to work early the next day. It’s difficult. I try but by and large shakes are my only way of getting the protein I need to go with a nice salad at lunch time.

mack1

columok wrote: »

I’d much prefer to have a dude with a giant barbeque of meat follow me around all day handing me a fine selection of tasty lean meats but that isn’t possible.

If I ever win the Euromillions I am SO doing that!

maradona10

rubadub i never said whey was a pharmaceutical product.

my point was how do you know protein supplements are not contaminated

i never mentioned whey once

comulok you say you take whey cos its convenient, cheap, absorbs quickly and is ethicaly sound

its not cheap as your purchasing an unnecessary product
a natural shake is as convenient to make, either at work or home
whether protein absorbs quickly or slowly doesnt matter so much as the fact that it is absorbed and not passed from the system as excess

the ethical point is debatable. unless theres proof of no contamination your on shaky ground

rubadub

maradona10 wrote: »

rubadub i never said whey was a pharmaceutical product.

my point was how do you know protein supplements are not contaminated

But would you stick whey protein shakes like the one g'em posted the label for under "supplements you do not trust"?
My point about it not being pharmaceutical is that it is as "natural" as the soya products you are already taking and seem to have no issue with.

i never mentioned whey once

Your comment on the label g'em posted was concerning a whey powder, and was...

that doesnt prove to me what the powder contains.

its just a label

Well whey is a foodstuff, just like cheese or soya, and undergoes the same regulations as other foods produced in Ireland. I and you could say the exact same comments about kilmeaden cheddar or the tofu you buy, i.e. "its only a label, until there is no proof of contamination I am not convinced".

its not cheap as your purchasing an unnecessary product

I enjoy whey shakes and drink them for pleasure, they are now part of my "normal diet". I could just as easily say chicken is an unnecessary product to my regular diet, as I could get my protein needs elsewhere.

columok

its not cheap as your purchasing an unnecessary product

What? Protein is a necessary part of my diet. I can get this through lean meat/fish. Eggs or pulses (by and large). Now how exactly are any of these (keeping in mind the ability to make one from the water tap in my rugby club) cheaper than protein shakes in terms of grammes of protein. Please enlighten me...

a natural shake is as convenient to make, either at work or home

What's a natural shake? Do you mean unprocessed? Then good luck making a shake from wild game or wild eggs. Anything else is unnatural.

the ethical point is debatable. unless theres proof of no contamination your on shaky ground

Unless I'm buying top notch eggs, fish or meat then I don't agree with you. Ethically sound meat is expensive and preparation time is high. Protein shakes are clearly a quicker cheaper and not battery farmed option. You seem to misunderstand my ethical argument.

Why would a protein shake be contaminated? With what? Do you really think a company would bother wasting expensive steroids on a cheap supplement? Do you really think the cheese factories manufacture anabolics as well? Do you really think that poor quality meat has fewer hormonal additives that high quality whey?

maradona10

whey is a by product of cheese production. as a foodstuff it is used to fatten calves and pigs in farming

whey protein has to be extracted from the whey. this process can lead to contamination

other additives are then added to make it palatable

pwd

You can get protein powder more cheaply than you can get the equivalent amount of protein by buying food, so yes it is cheap.

As far as contamination is concerned, I would be more worried about mercury in tuna, antibiotics and growth hormones in meat and so on than pointless and profitless tampering with whey protein.

maradona10

columok, of course protein is a necessary part of your diet, its vital. i never said it wasnt. i said the protein supplements(whey) are expensive and unnecessary.

you can get all your protein requirement from food, therefore the supplements are an unnessary expense

your ethical point relating to meat production is valid.

supplements get contaminated not by deliberate insertion of steroids but by using the same production equipment to prepare them

columok

whey protein has to be extracted from the whey. this process can lead to contamination

contamination with what? All processing of food has inherent risks. If you eat any processed or farmed food then you are exposed to this risk. I think you are being ever so slighty naive to separate food supplements from REAL FOOD. In today's society they are really one and the same.

Do you eat processed food normally?

columok

columok, of course protein is a necessary part of your diet, its vital. i never said it wasnt. i said the protein supplements(whey) are expensive and unnecessary.

If meat isn't neccessarily an option then how? And whey is a lot cheaper than meat/fish.

supplements get contaminated not by deliberate insertion of steroids but by using the same production equipment to prepare them

Steroids are generally produced by pharma companies for medicinal uses not by supplement companies like NutritionX.

rubadub

maradona10 wrote: »

i said the protein supplements(whey) are expensive and unnecessary.

Whey is the cheapest form of protein I get, per kilo of actual protein.

maradona10 wrote: »

you can get all your protein requirement from food,

whey is a processed foodstuff, just like your tofu. Whey provides a more diverse supply of protein suited to muscle growth along with your other various sources.

Your tofu or milk is just as unnecessary as whey.

Dragan

maradona10 wrote: »

supplements get contaminated not by deliberate insertion of steroids but by using the same production equipment to prepare them

I'm willing to be dollars to donuts ( sit down JSB ) that you are either currently doing, or have just finished a course along the lines of the NCEF or NCHS....yeah?

As Hanely said bro, put down the book, get under the bar.

There is absolutely no possibility of cross contamination of steroids with a nutritional supplement unless they are produced in the same facility.

Last time i checked, not even the pharma companies in Ireland were producing medicinal steroids? That is some stretch to assume that dairy based facility are somehow doing it....anywhere.

I guess you were reading up on cross contamination you failed to check the actual supps that were tested and not ONE whey or creatine product was found to contain any trace of anabolics.

It strikes me that you are now simply arguing for the sake of it.....either start coming back with references for some of the points you are making ( 25 grams of protein being absorbed, cross contamination etc ) or simply stop posting.

I have no particular issue with your opinions, you entitled to them, i do have issue with you posting those opinions as fact with no basis or reference.

Consider this a warning.

maradona10

im not being naive, i realise theres a risk with all kinds of food.

pesticides on fruit
mercury in tuna( as quoted above )
anti biotics in meat
hidden trans fats in processed foods
real value of organic foods

its hard to know if your doing right or wrong these days. however i can limit my risk by choosing natural foods as best i can and staying away from supplements. im not judging anyone here that takes them, im just trying to make people aware that they are not necessary.

a lot of advice is given on this site to newbies about using supplements when weight training when more emphasis should be on a good diet

mloc

where did this only digest 25g at a time "fact" come from?

you keep changing your tune, first its "i dont trust whats in them" now its "you shouldn't be using them anyway". nasty smell of troll tbh.

Dragan

maradona10 wrote: »

its hard to know if your doing right or wrong these days. however i can limit my risk by choosing natural foods as best i can and staying away from supplements. im not judging anyone here that takes them, im just trying to make people aware that they are not necessary.

a lot of advice is given on this site to newbies about using supplements when weight training when more emphasis should be on a good diet

No offence, but i largely find any one who bangs on about eating natural food and then says they eat soya to be maybe wearing rose tinted glasses.

Also, without knowing the indept routines of each and every person on this site YOU of all people cannot say what is necessary.

Each and every post here is dealt with on a case by case basis, many, many times i have seen the people that you are knocking for supplement use tell people they do not need them, to eat more and train harder.

Dragan

mloc wrote: »

where did this only digest 25g at a time "fact" come from?

you keep changing your tune, first its "i dont trust whats in them" now its "you shouldn't be using them anyway". nasty smell of troll tbh.

He passes muster on IP checks, it's just obvious that he plays soccer is all.

justsomebloke

Dragan wrote: »

sit down JSB

I'm trying man but I don't think I can with this protein rage building up in side me from all the shakes

Tigger

maradona10 wrote: »

im not being naive, i realise theres a risk with all kinds of food.

pesticides on fruit
mercury in tuna( as quoted above )
anti biotics in meat
hidden trans fats in processed foods
real value of organic foods

its hard to know if your doing right or wrong these days. however i can limit my risk by choosing natural foods as best i can and staying away from supplements. im not judging anyone here that takes them, im just trying to make people aware that they are not necessary.

a lot of advice is given on this site to newbies about using supplements when weight training when more emphasis should be on a good diet

there is a big movement in america for raw milk
the stuff i put on my wheetabbix is processed
which is safer in your opinion

maradona10

dragan,
refs for max 25g protein digestion at 1 meal and 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight to maintain weight

john lear(national and olympic weighlfting coach), british amateur weight lifters association

nancy clarks sports nutrition guidebook

tudor bompas theory and methodology of training, serious weight training and weight training for sports

i also have links but i cant use copy link on mouse. will post when i get it fixed

also check the www.mayoclinic.com, and the american college of sports medicine

dragan you would have lost your money.

also in reply to this
"There is absolutely no possibility of cross contamination of steroids with a nutritional supplement unless they are produced in the same facility.
Last time i checked, not even the pharma companies in Ireland were producing medicinal steroids? That is some stretch to assume that dairy based facility are somehow doing it....anywhere."

why would you be checkin pharma companies for steroid manufacture?

also whats with the ip checks. do u not like what you here

Dragan

maradona10 wrote: »

dragan,
refs for max 25g protein digestion at 1 meal and 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight to maintain weight

john lear(national and olympic weighlfting coach), british amateur weight lifters association

nancy clarks sports nutrition guidebook

tudor bompas theory and methodology of training, serious weight training and weight training for sports

Cheers,

I have read the last two of those and neither could put forth a particularly convincing argument as to why it's only 25 grams of protein the body can absorb in one meal. Neither of them seemed to go into any major detail about the proteins source, the food combinations, or why the body can only digest or absorb such a small amount. It's been a while since I read them though so I may be mistaken here. I'll look up work by john lear ( though in my experience I tend to take my nutrition advice from nutritionists as opposed to weightlifting coaches, but that’s just me ).

With regard to the 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight, I have always considered that to be far to much of a catch-all , as it does not take into account lean body mass? Once again though, that is just me, as eating to maintain adipose never really struck me as such a good idea.

why would you be checkin pharma companies for steroid manufacture?

For the simple fact of satisfying my curiousity to be honest. I am still failing to see how you arguments for a risk of contamination hold water with Irish based Supplement companies?

also whats with the ip checks. do u not like what you here

Not really, it's the internet. The joy of it is that it is populated by millions of people who have differing opinions to mine. It's amazing how I don't get upset because someone believes something different to me. All I ever ask for is a bit of proof of what people are saying has some kind of weight.

Finally, an IP is something I would run whenever another poster mentions a possibility of trolling, it's just to ensure that no one is posting with a doubling account and is done to ease that posters mind that it is not just a regular or a well known trouble maker taking the mick.

pwd

I remember someone posting on this board a while ago that you digest protein in the bottom of your gut, and carbohydrate higher up, so you digest it better if you consume the protein component of a meal first.

I think the type of protein would be a factor in how much of it would be absorbed, because different types are digested differently. Caseine forms a gel inside you apparently and is digested slowly over six hours. Hydrolysed whey protein is the other extreme - according to someone on this board it is digested so quickly that you don't make any use of it beyond storing it as glycogen in your muscles. Other things you eat may also influence digestion. Whey protein in milk is supposed to be absorbed slowly.