Rememberance day

DJ_Spider

I know this is probably opening a can of worms, as have read the recent thread debating weather to wear a red ot white popy, why we wear one etc. But as I served in the British Army for 12 years and saw some of my comrades killed in action, I want to wear one. (A red one!)

I now have moved to Dublin and have found most people are very friendly towards me as an Englishman. In fact in 18 months I have only had 3 people who had a problem with the English. I would like to ask, without anyone being sarcastic, abusive, or saying feck off back to England, don't support the English etc, like in the previous thread, is there anywhere in Dublin City I can buy a poppy?

Sorry for being a bit of a prude, and I know the internet is all for free speech, but we all have feelings, and also some people might have personal reasons for not liking someone from a particular country. But this is now 2007 and many of the past differances between countries have been resolved or at least diminished.

And hey, let's be careful out there! (Wasn't that said on Hill St Blues or something?!)

DJ Spider

Shutuplaura

Should this be in politics rather than history?

Re the poppy, the British legion has offices in the city - Frederick St near Trinity (of course!) so why not contact them? I heard that this year people are going to be selling them on the streets but I really don't know if i'd believe it.

super_furry

There were several guys selling them on Grafton Street and the bottom of Nasau Street last year - I bought one in memory of my Grandad.

Erin Go Brath

DJ_Spider wrote: »

I now have moved to Dublin and have found most people are very friendly towards me as an Englishman. In fact in 18 months I have only had 3 people who had a problem with the English. I would like to ask, without anyone being sarcastic, abusive, or saying feck off back to England, don't support the English etc, like in the previous thread, is there anywhere in Dublin City I can buy a poppy?

Sorry for being a bit of a prude, and I know the internet is all for free speech, but we all have feelings, and also some people might have personal reasons for not liking someone from a particular country. But this is now 2007 and many of the past differances between countries have been resolved or at least diminished.

Whats with the negative stereotypes Its the 21st century, Ireland is a multicultural secular state these days. What were you expecting a load of angry people with pitchforks waiting for you when you came over or something. :rolleyes: Lad, nobody gives a ****e whether you're from England.
If I go to England will they all be wearing top hats, and saying things like "how the devil are you, old boy"?

As for poppies, no we've none over here. You can feck off back to England to get them.

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Whats with the negative stereotypes Its the 21st century, Ireland is a multicultural secular state these days. What were you expecting a load of angry people with pitchforks waiting for you when you came over or something. :rolleyes: Lad, nobody gives a ****e whether you're from England.
If I go to England will they all be wearing top hats, and saying things like "how the devil are you, old boy"?

As for poppies, no we've none over here. You can feck off back to England to get them.

Lets give this thread 48 hours and see if any of those negative stereotypes show up shall we:D

I tried last year and I was told that Grafton Street would be the best bet, although I also understand a lot of the Church of Ireland churches sell them as well.

europerson

Your local Church of Ireland church is probably the best bet for getting a poppy.

Erin Go Brath

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Lets give this thread 48 hours and see if any of those negative stereotypes show up shall we:D

Ah sure theres too much fun to be had.

DJ_Spider wrote:

is there anywhere in Dublin City I can buy a poppy?

Did you try the Sinn Fein shop off Parnell Street? IIRC they keep poppies between the "Come out ye Black and Tans" CDs, and the "I still hate Thatcher" t-shirts. Worth a try!

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Did you try the Sinn Fein shop off Parnell Street? IIRC they keep poppies between the "Come out ye Black and Tans" CDs, and the "I still hate Thatcher" t-shirts. Worth a try!

Actually, I'm sure McArmalite will know, he is the expert on all things English

McArmalite

.

Erin Go Brath

Shutuplaura wrote: »

I heard that this year people are going to be selling them on the streets but I really don't know if i'd believe it.

In daylight hours. :eek:
McArm get the weapons out, we're taking to the streets to stop this sham before it gets started. :cool:

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

In daylight hours. :eek:
McArm get the weapons out, we're taking to the streets to stop this sham before it gets started. :cool:

pitchforks at dawn:D

Erin Go Brath

Fratton Fred wrote: »

pitchforks at dawn:D

So you're going to be collecting your poppy that day then..........brave man.
Watch out for McArm, the FCA trained rooftop sniper. I know how ye English boys love a good ambush.

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

So you're going to be collecting your poppy that day then..........brave man.
Watch out for McArm, the FCA trained rooftop sniper. I know how ye English boys love a good ambush.

snipers I can handle, it's those damn ninjas that scare me;)

Mrs. MacGyver

europerson wrote: »

Your local Church of Ireland church is probably the best bet for getting a poppy.

Yes they do but only on Rememberance Sunday (well my one in Cork does anyway). I haven't seen them on sale arond Dublin City Centre at the moment. I wear one in memory of my Granduncle. No one has ever said anything to me. It's a mark of respect to those who died in past wars.

Goldenquick

It's a mark of respect to those who died in past wars. ^5's .

I wear mine with pride when I can get one, but indeed there is the old country ways of "what are ya wearin' that for, shure n it's only for the English wans to be wearing", :rolleyes:

McArmalite

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

So you're going to be collecting your poppy that day then..........brave man.
Watch out for McArm, the FCA trained rooftop sniper. I know how ye English boys love a good ambush.

. The Armalite is ready to rock and roll.

Fratton Fred

Mrs. MacGyver wrote: »

Yes they do but only on Rememberance Sunday (well my one in Cork does anyway). I haven't seen them on sale arond Dublin City Centre at the moment. I wear one in memory of my Granduncle. No one has ever said anything to me. It's a mark of respect to those who died in past wars.

the Poppy is worn the world over as a mark of respect, the trouble is, there are many people in Ireland who don't know there is a world outside of Irelands struggle under British rule.

FiSe

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the Poppy is worn the world over as a mark of respect, the trouble is, there are many people in Ireland who don't know there is a world outside of Irelands struggle under British rule.

Think it's more UK/Commonwealth affair.

Havin' said that, I will definately look for one. Got one last year and would like to get one this year as well. Will not wear it though...

ScottishDanny

the FCA trained rooftop sniper.

Is he the one who gets to shout BANG!

I remember reading once that the poppies are made in Germany - theres irony for you!

I'd wear a white poppy if they were available. A way of showing respect for the dead without glorifying the B.E.

McArmalite

" the Poppy is worn the world over as a mark of respect " Is it worn in by your average in the street American, Dane, Belgian, Brazilian, Mongolian etc.... you said all over the world ??

"The trouble is, there are many people in Ireland who" can still vividly remember the british army murdering, maiming and assaulting thousands of Irish nationalists between 1969 and 1994 in the occupied counties. Did it ever occur to you that many Irish people would have a damn good reason for opposing the wearing of a poppy ?? It is'nt surprising that the families and communities that suffered under the terrorism of the british forces for 25 years might have anything but respect for the british army. I wonder will many people be wearing them in the middle east as a mark of respect for the british lads bringing peace to Afghanistan and Iraq at the moment. But maybe it's because the middle eastern countries that have been victim's of british justice have, like the Irish, a different view of your conceited british opinion on everything.

After all, there is a world outside "the nation that still pumps itself up on the conceit that it fought the might of Nazi Germany alone" you know Fred.

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

" the Poppy is worn the world over as a mark of respect " Is it worn in by your average in the street American, Dane, Belgian, Brazilian, Mongolian etc.... you said all over the world ??

"The trouble is, there are many people in Ireland who" can still vividly remember the british army murdering, maiming and assaulting thousands of Irish nationalists between 1969 and 1994 in the occupied counties. Did it ever occur to you that many Irish people would have a damn good reason for opposing the wearing of a poppy ?? It is'nt surprising that the families and communities that suffered under the terrorism of the british forces for 25 years might have anything but respect for the british army. I wonder will many people be wearing them in the middle east as a mark of respect for the british lads bringing peace to Afghanistan and Iraq at the moment. But maybe it's because the middle eastern countries that have been victim's of british justice have, like the Irish, a different view of your conceited british opinion on everything.

After all, there is a world outside "the nation that still pumps itself up on the conceit that it fought the might of Nazi Germany alone" you know Fred.

I do like it when you prove a point for me.

Reliable as ever.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I do like it when you prove a point for me.

Reliable as ever.

Glad to set you straight - as usual . Your the one who introduced the " negative stereotypes "..... " there are many people in Ireland who don't know there is a world outside of Irelands struggle under British rule".

Erin Go Brath

Goldenquick wrote: »

It's a mark of respect to those who died in past wars. ^5's .

I wear mine with pride when I can get one, but indeed there is the old country ways of "what are ya wearin' that for, shure n it's only for the English wans to be wearing", :rolleyes:

Old country ways, wtf Wish I was young and trendy like you.
Wearing the poppy is showing support for the black and tans, and that ilk. Hardly surprising its contentious, considering all thats gone before.

Remember Irelands war dead by all means, but there should be another symbol besides the poppy. The shamrock I think someone suggested before. That'd be a nice symbol to represent Irelands fallen in the World Wars.

SpitfireIV

Erin Go Brath wrote:

Wearing the poppy is showing support for the black and tans, and that ilk.

An example of the 'old country ways' Goldenquick is referring to I think :rolleyes:

If ye dont like the poppy, or the idea of it, then dont wear or buy one, simple as. But let those who choose to wear one and remember the many who fell in the world wars do so, its there business, there prefrence, there choice and not a thing wrong with it either.

Mrs. MacGyver

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Old country ways, wtf Wish I was young and trendy like you.
Wearing the poppy is showing support for the black and tans, and that ilk. Hardly surprising its contentious, considering all thats gone before.

Remember Irelands war dead by all means, but there should be another symbol besides the poppy. The shamrock I think someone suggested before. That'd be a nice symbol to represent Irelands fallen in the World Wars.

That is absolutely ridicolus! That is a totally negative standpoint.
Its a symbol of triumph over adversity.The poppies are worn because in World War One the Western Front contained in the soil thousands of poppy seeds, all lying dormant. They would have lain there for years more, but the battles being fought there churned up the soil so much that the poppies bloomed like never before. The most famous bloom of poppies in the war was in Ypres, a town in Flanders, Belgium, which was crucial to the Allied defence. There were three battles there, but it was the second, which was calamitous to the allies since it heralded the first use of the new chlorine gas the Germans were experimenting with, which brought forth the poppies in greatest abundance, and inspired the Canadian soldier, Major John McCrae, to write his most famous poem. This, in turn, inspired the British Legion to adopt the poppy as their emblem.

In Flanders Fields

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

John McCrae (1872 - 1918)
The American Moira Michael from Georgia, was the first person to wear a poppy in remembrance. In reply to McCrae's poem, she wrote a poem entitled 'We shall keep the faith' which includes the lines:

And now the Torch and Poppy Red
We wear in honor of our dead.
She bought some poppies, wore one, and sold the others, raising money for ex-servicemen. Her colleague, French YMCA Secretary Madame Guerin, took up the idea and made artificial poppies for war orphans. It caught on.

In November 1921, the British Legion and Austrian Returned Sailor's and Soldier's League sold them for the first time.

Below is a hyperlink as to how the Poppy apeal can help modern victims of war.
http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/10/28/saved-by-the-poppy-98487-20020045/

See the folowing from the Canadian War Museum's Website:
The Poppy, Symbol of Remembrance

The first Remembrance Day poppyThe adoption of the poppy as a symbol of remembrance has international origins. The first person to use it this way was Moina Michael, a member of the staff of the American Overseas YMCA in the last year of the war. Michael read McCrae's poem and was so moved that she composed one of her own in response. She recalled later: "In a high moment of white resolve, I pledged to keep the faith and always to wear a red poppy of Flanders Fields as a sign of remembrance and the emblem of 'keeping the faith with all who died.'"

Consequently, she led a successful campaign to have the American Legion recognize the poppy as the official symbol of remembrance in April 1920. At the same time, Madame Anne Guerin, of France, inspired both by McCrae's poem and by Moina Michael's example, also became a vigorous advocate of the poppy as the symbol of remembrance for war dead. Her own organization, the American and French Children's League, sold cloth copies of the flower to help raise money to re-establish war-devastated areas in Europe.

In 1921, Guerin travelled to Britain and Canada on behalf of the poppy and convinced both the recently formed British Legion and the Canadian Great War Veterans Association (a predecessor of the Canadian Legion) to adopt the poppy as their symbol of remembrance as well. The first 'Poppy Day' in both countries occurred on 11 November 1921. The Returned Soldiers League in Australia adopted the poppy as its symbol of remembrance the same year.

For the first year, these artificial poppies were bought from Guerin's organization in France. By 1922, however, the various countries had started manufacturing them at home. In Canada, they were made by Vetcraft shops, run by the Department of Soldiers Civil Re-establishment and staffed by disabled soldiers. After its formation in 1925, the Canadian Legion (known as the Royal Canadian Legion since 1959) has run the poppy campaign in Canada.

An early edition of the Legion's magazine, The Legionary, explained the significance of buying poppies made by Vetcraft, as opposed to commercially available copies, as follows: "The disabled veterans in Vetcraft and Red Cross workshops are creating true memorials, while a poppy replica produced under ordinary commercial competitive conditions is nothing more nor less than an artificial flower."

The artificial poppy continues to flourish as the symbol of remembrance in the week leading up to the official commemorations on November 11. Today, millions of Canadians wear the bright red emblem to remember and honour the many thousands of their fellow Canadians who have died in war.

europerson

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Wearing the poppy is showing support for the black and tans

I really fail to see how.

Dr Strange

As the thread is titled Rememberance Day I thought I just let those who are interested know that the German National Day of Mourning (Volkstrauertag) falls this year on Sunday, 18th of November.

A wreath-laying ceremony for the victims (all sides, military or civilian) of both World Wars will be held on that day at the German Military Cemetery in Glencree, Co. Wicklow. It wil start in the Glencree Centre for Reconciliation, which is just across the road from the cemetery, in the church with an ecumenical service followed by wreath-laying ceremony at the Hall of Memory on the cemetery. The German Embassy organises this event every year together with the Glencree Centre for Reconciliation. The German War Graves Commission also takes part and lays a wreath as well as the British Legion and any private or public person who choose to do so.

A talk will follow the ceremony in the Centre.

The whole event starts at 11.30 am and usually takes approximately 2-3 hours.

For more information on the cemetery and events you can always contact me.

Best,

Preusse

Erin Go Brath

@croppyboy, mrs mcgyver, europerson


I should have put it clearer. The poppy is a symbol of Britains war efforts, which obviously includes the black and tans in the WoI. Now I know its a bit of a subjective one, some people see absolutely no problem, but many do. I for one, while I have respect for Irelands War dead would certainly never wear the poppy to commemorate them. I believe their should be an Irish symbol, like the shamrock etc which should be incorporated as the symbol to represent our dead in these wars.

FiSe

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

@croppyboy, mrs mcgyver, europerson


I should have put it clearer. The poppy is a symbol of Britains war efforts, which obviously includes the black and tans in the WoI. Now I know its a bit of a subjective one, some people see absolutely no problem, but many do. I for one, while I have respect for Irelands War dead would certainly never wear the poppy to commemorate them. I believe their should be an Irish symbol, like the shamrock etc which should be incorporated as the symbol to represent our dead in these wars.

Ireland was part of the UK during first war - and some time after, I think, but I might be wrong...

But some good points here, we have tricolour, so there's no stopping to wear it and to hang the flags high, let's say during month of May?
How that would be for the nation, wonder?

And what about poppy with tricolour?

europerson

I personally don't see the poppy as a British symbol. I don't know if people know why the poppy is used as a symbol of remembrance. After WWI, the barren battlefields, particularly around Flanders, were covered with poppies. Poppies grow where soil has been disturbed: we can still see that nowadays, when poppies grow alongside major road developments, for example. In that way, a symbol of "the battlefield" doesn't give off a British vibe: it's just a way of remembering all those who died. Of course, people tend to attach a sense of patriotism to that, as is the case during and after any war.

Erin Go Brath

We got a lot of poppy lovers in here I see.

I like the poem mrs mcgyver, and I can see the nature of its use as a symbol. Despite that its still going to be a contentious symbol because of it being associated with them lot. I know theres quite a few people who wouldn't wear it for said reason. Is it not a better idea to have a symbol that everyone can agree on? Whats wrong with the shamrock idea anyway? Any other ideas of a happy compromise? A green poppy if such a thing existed would be ok I guess if yous are that keen on the poppy. Dying poppies green for Irish War Commemorations, might take off. :cool:

Gobán Saor

Seems to me that the poppy is a symbol which honours veterans of the British Armed forces and the causes they fought for. It is the official symbol of the Royal British Legion and, while it does have a presence outside the UK, it is by and large confined to Commonwealth nations such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. But it is mainly a British thing and commemorates British veterans and British participation in various wars of various shades of morality and justice. Which is all fine and dandy if you're British - I can see exactly why the British people have taken to the poppy and wear it with pride. However, the British Armed forces have also been involved in some pretty nasty behaviour over the years, not least in the suppression of independence wars in Ireland, Cyprus, Palestine, Iraq, Kenya, Malaysia, India, Aden to name but a few. Therefore it is impossible, with any degree of realism, to separate the poppy from its connection with British imperialism. If you live in a country that did suffer from heavy-handed and brutal British imperialism (as Ireland did) I think it is perfectly reasonable to have a generally negative attitude towards the poppy. This is not a simple negative stereotype - it is a reasoned and rational reaction.

We live in a free country with freedom of expression for all. So by all means let those British people living here (like the OP) wear their poppies and commemorate their war dead. I don't see any particular reason for Irish people to commemorate the British war dead. By all means let us commemorate our own war dead, we don't need green poppies or tricolor poppies, we have the perfect symbol already - the Easter lily.

europerson

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Whats wrong with the shamrock idea anyway?

Most people wear shamrock at St. Patrick's Day. it would be like having plum pudding at Christmas and Easter!

Gobán Saor wrote: »

It is the official symbol of the Royal British Legion

Several symbols have different roles: the shamrock represents a load of different things: we don't relate St. Patrick with the Irish Cricket Union, and so on.

We live in a free country with freedom of expression for all. So by all means let those British people living here (like the OP) wear their poppies and commemorate their war dead. I don't see any particular reason for Irish people to commemorate the British war dead.

The poppy commemorates not only British war dead.

By all means let us commemorate our own war dead, we don't need green poppies or tricolor poppies, we have the perfect symbol already - the Easter lily.

I think that's a more loaded symbol than the poppy.

SpitfireIV

Gobán Saor wrote: »

I don't see any particular reason for Irish people to commemorate the British war dead.

But again, its peoples own prefrence, those who choose to wear it, will do so. Its not just British war dead that the poppy commemorates, its all the lives lost, a solomn reminder of war and those who paid the ultimate price.

I, personally, and many I know (who are not ashamed....god forbid, of putting there Irish identity to question) would have no problem what so ever wearing a poppy, and why not, lots of Irish people were brave enough to go off and join the battle, lots never to come home, so what right have we got now, to say that there should be a seperate one just for this group, or that the poppy shouldnt be a symbol for them too. I'm sure the thousands that left to fight didnt think to themselves 'jaysus, you know what, I'd better not go, because in a couple of years Ireland will have some degree of freedom and we'll be labeled as traitors', they did perhaps what they felt was right at the time, and no matter how much of an understanding we today might 'think' we have of them times, we dont know what ran through the heads of those individuals....hindsight is a wonderful thing

Its just a poppy guys

Shutuplaura

I've two granduncles who fought in WWI, one of whom was killed in 1917 and one of whom, after sevice on the Somme and by family legend also in Gallipoli came home to fight with the IRA and was killed by the Iish Army in 1923. I've also an uncle who is very muchalive who joined the British Amyto see the world in the 1960's and later after leaving it became a strong republican in response to the events of 68-69 in the north. I'd imagine that i have some close family connections to the issue. For what its worth I do think that the poppy definately did have strong pro-militaristic connutations from the way it was promoted between by the British Legion in the past. Perhaps its moving away from that as 21st century western society becomes more questioning of why we get involved in foreign wars. There is an altenative though, a white poppy which serves to remember the fallen of the first world war and presumably all wars since but also carries a added implication of hope for the end to future wars. Personally if I was given to wearing any symbols to remember the military tradition of my family which encompases two strands of Irish military tradition I would choose this. That said, I've nothing against the red poppy becasue it has almost completely lost any of the implicit support for militarism it once carried. My uncle, the strong republican ex British army one, sees no contradiction himself in wearing the red poppy on remembeance day and a lily on easter sunday so I say good luck to the OP and to the members of Fine Gael who will be selling them on our streets in the next few weeks!

Dr Strange

I think it comes down to what each individual country has developed as part of their "rememberance day". I don't wear a poppy but that is mainly due because we use the heather (also known as 'Erika') on our war graves (German).
True, we don't wear it but it is nontheless the flower used for all German War Graves as per German War Graves Commission. Also we have pins we can get from the Commission to wear.
I am sure if Ireland had their own version of what symbol to wear on these days it would be easier for most people to choose this instead of wearing nothing.

Erin Go Brath

Gobán Saor wrote: »

Seems to me that the poppy is a symbol which honours veterans of the British Armed forces and the causes they fought for. It is the official symbol of the Royal British Legion and, while it does have a presence outside the UK, it is by and large confined to Commonwealth nations such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. But it is mainly a British thing and commemorates British veterans and British participation in various wars of various shades of morality and justice. Which is all fine and dandy if you're British - I can see exactly why the British people have taken to the poppy and wear it with pride. However, the British Armed forces have also been involved in some pretty nasty behaviour over the years, not least in the suppression of independence wars in Ireland, Cyprus, Palestine, Iraq, Kenya, Malaysia, India, Aden to name but a few. Therefore it is impossible, with any degree of realism, to separate the poppy from its connection with British imperialism. If you live in a country that did suffer from heavy-handed and brutal British imperialism (as Ireland did) I think it is perfectly reasonable to have a generally negative attitude towards the poppy. This is not a simple negative stereotype - it is a reasoned and rational reaction.

We live in a free country with freedom of expression for all. So by all means let those British people living here (like the OP) wear their poppies and commemorate their war dead. I don't see any particular reason for Irish people to commemorate the British war dead. By all means let us commemorate our own war dead, we don't need green poppies or tricolor poppies, we have the perfect symbol already - the Easter lily.

Excellent post! The Easter lily would be a good symbol, and less contentious than the poppy for Irish people to wear.

brianthebard

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

@croppyboy, mrs mcgyver, europerson


I should have put it clearer. The poppy is a symbol of Britains war efforts, which obviously includes the black and tans in the WoI. Now I know its a bit of a subjective one, some people see absolutely no problem, but many do. I for one, while I have respect for Irelands War dead would certainly never wear the poppy to commemorate them. I believe their should be an Irish symbol, like the shamrock etc which should be incorporated as the symbol to represent our dead in these wars.

No its not, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

Erin Go Brath

brianthebard wrote: »

No its not, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

Do explain it then, oh wise one. Or is an arrogant put down just enough for you? :rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Excellent post! The Easter lily would be a good symbol, and less contentious than the poppy for Irish people to wear.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74759

The proceeds of the sale of the Easter Lilies should go
to the Republican political prisoners fund and that is
through CABHAIR who support Republican prisoners
and their dependents.

“Instead of wearing an Easter Lily as a fashion statement,
I would appeal to women to wear it with pride and in
solidarity with the Republican prisoners. In short, wearing
an Easter Lily should honour all those who gave their lives
and freedom for national self-determination.”

less of an issue for those that wish to support republican prisoners I take it.

Mrs. MacGyver

Fratton Fred wrote: »

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74759



less of an issue for those that wish to support republican prisoners I take it.

But wouldn't that be tantamount to supporting paramilitaries then?

Fratton Fred

Mrs. MacGyver wrote: »

But wouldn't that be tantamount to supporting paramilitaries then?

I think it is, although I'm sure some would argue otherwise.

at the end of the day, all anyone wants to do is remember all those who died in conflict, it's a shame it gets so political.

I will be wearing my poppy as to me it is a mark of respect to all those who have given their lives. I find it hard to believe anyone who has visited the graves in France, Belgium (And one I have visited in Thailand) can get so hung up about it. I will also try and get to Glencree on the 18th as well.

McArmalite

Gobán Saor wrote: »

Seems to me that the poppy is a symbol which honours veterans of the British Armed forces and the causes they fought for. It is the official symbol of the Royal British Legion and, while it does have a presence outside the UK, it is by and large confined to Commonwealth nations such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. But it is mainly a British thing and commemorates British veterans and British participation in various wars of various shades of morality and justice. Which is all fine and dandy if you're British - I can see exactly why the British people have taken to the poppy and wear it with pride. However, the British Armed forces have also been involved in some pretty nasty behaviour over the years, not least in the suppression of independence wars in Ireland, Cyprus, Palestine, Iraq, Kenya, Malaysia, India, Aden to name but a few. Therefore it is impossible, with any degree of realism, to separate the poppy from its connection with British imperialism. If you live in a country that did suffer from heavy-handed and brutal British imperialism (as Ireland did) I think it is perfectly reasonable to have a generally negative attitude towards the poppy. This is not a simple negative stereotype - it is a reasoned and rational reaction.

We live in a free country with freedom of expression for all. So by all means let those British people living here (like the OP) wear their poppies and commemorate their war dead. I don't see any particular reason for Irish people to commemorate the British war dead. By all means let us commemorate our own war dead, we don't need green poppies or tricolor poppies, we have the perfect symbol already - the Easter lily.

Great posting. Another thing is how WW2 especially is portrayed as "the great crusade to save mankind" thing. Now I'm not trying to debase the individuals who fought against the Nazi's, fascist Italy and Japan, not in any way. But I'm talking about the governments and senior military. Here is a good article on the so called " good" war. http://www.socialistworker.org/2005-1/530/530_08_Dresden.shtml

And as for WW1, again not belittling the individual rank and file, but as Snickers once remarked, if WW1 was about the freedom of small nations, how come Britain, France and Italy had bigger empires at the end of it than at the beginning ??

This is not just negativity for the sake of dragging something down, (a trait that symbolizes stickie ism), but just reasoned and rational observation and questioning.

cp251

This is not just negativity for the sake of dragging something down, (a trait that symbolizes stickie ism), but just reasoned and rational observation and questioning

'Reasoned and rational observation'? Your absurist and irrational and responses to everything Fratton Fred and others is the polar opposite of rational debate. Rational debate is when you counter the other man's opinion with a reasoned and rational observation not:

"The trouble is, there are many people in Ireland who" can still vividly remember the british army murdering, maiming and assaulting thousands of Irish nationalists between 1969 and 1994 in the occupied counties

None of that is rational, it's a propagandist diatribe.

Don't you understand that most people on this forum think you are a bit of joke and take almost nothing you say seriously? I say this to you because you are obviously intelligent but gratingly immature and woefully ill informed about almost everything you write.

As for citing the socialistworker, oh dear. Not exactly a beacon of truth and rational thought.

If you ever actually calm down, you might be able to contribute usefully to a debate but at the moment you're like a drunk at the back of the bus. Everyone smiles at your antics but wishes you would get off at the next stop.

cp251

As for poppies. Quite simply they are sold as a fundraiser to help raise money for old soldiers. That includes a lot of Irishmen. Buy one if you wish, wear it if you wish. It's up to you. It's not a symbol of British oppression whatever that is. It just demonstrates you care about their welfare. Nothing more, nothing less.
I never bought one, but I was never approached or saw one being sold. I tend not to buy or wear charity badges of any sort anyway.

Gobán Saor

cp251 wrote: »

As for poppies. Quite simply they are sold as a fundraiser to help raise money for old soldiers......... It's not a symbol of British oppression whatever that is.......

With respect, I think that's a little naive. Pop over to the Royal British Legion website and you will see that the poppy honours not only British Armed Forces members but also the causes they fought for. In fact, the whole "pitch" made for the poppy appeal is that it is precisely because of what they fought for that the ex-servicemen now deserve to be supported. So, to support the poppy appeal is to implicitly support all the many wars that the British Army has fought over the last century. As an Irishman I don't support all those wars. Especially the imperialist ones fought against countries like Ireland.

Those who wish to express support for the British campaigns in Ireland, Palestine, Kenya, Suez, Malaysia, Cyprus, India and assorted small nations are free to disagree and wear their poppies with pride:D:D

Erin Go Brath

So we're still no further to a symbol we can all agree on then.
The poppy, the easter lily, the shamrock all seem to be disagreeable to some for different reasons.
Anyone brave enough to suggest another symbol?

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

So we're still no further to a symbol we can all agree on then.
The poppy, the easter lily, the shamrock all seem to be disagreeable to some for different reasons.
Anyone brave enough to suggest another symbol?

the White Poppy appears to be theone that is least offensive as it is as much a peace symbol as it is anything else. The Poppy (The Red one anyway) is recognised widely (Yes, I know mainly in the commonweath, but as the people that came up with the idea were originally American and French, we can presume it is acceptable in those countries as well) so it keeps the theme of recognition alive but is different enough to be, well, different.

Mick86

europerson wrote: »

I really fail to see how.

Suerly you've seen all those Black and Tan patrols roaring around the country. Whooping and a hollerin', stampedin' the women and raping the cattle.

The Poppy's fine by me. Canadians used to wear a Forget me Not I think.

Dr Strange

Mick86 wrote: »

Suerly you've seen all those Black and Tan patrols roaring around the country. Whooping and a hollerin', stampedin' the women and raping the cattle.

The Poppy's fine by me. Canadians used to wear a Forget me Not I think.

The 'forget-me-not' is quite interesting. It is used on German graves as well but also has a special meaning to German freemasons during WWII. They were declared an illegal organisation by the German government during that time and in order to recognise each other they started to wear the 'forget-me-not' instead of the widely known compass and square.

Now freemasons all over the world know the 'forget-me-not' and you can even get them stylised as enamel pins from the Grand Lodge in Molesworth street in Dublin.

Tenger

Posted this in the Irish in WWII thread:


"Sorry getting off topic-I feel something should change in relation to how Ireland treats its history of Irishmen fighting in the British Army. look at the press coverage for that woman from the west who was killed in Afghanistan recently.

To that end I have decided to wear the Red Poppy with my uniform at work for the next month. Keep in mind I am from a Nationalist family from along the Armagh-Monaghan border so am aware of how ppl can interpret this. however I am working in Dublin so the possiblity of being beaten by iron bars like that guy up home 10 days ago is pretty much non-existent.

Today was the second day and some guy (Southern county dublin accent,maybe wicklow)asked me quite pointedly "Why are you wearing a poppy" as if it was wrong. I replied "because my grandfather fought and died in WWII" (the other grandfather than the LDF one)

I am not doing it to glorify the achievements of the British Army but to acknowledge that Irishmen have fought and died in wars that were not Irelands wars. Should I paint the second poppy I bought green and wear it instead? Don't like the politics of the White Poppy,unfortunately I do believe military action can be justified."

Would a green poppy with a shamrock in the centre convey what several ppl here want to show without being mis-interpreted as glorifying the British army/empire/political causes?