Deactivated militaria

Dr Strange

I thought I start this one with one of my own items. I am mostly interested in WWI-WWII sub-machine guns but am also looking for a good example of old-spec deactivated P08 (Luger), P38 and C96 (Broom-handle).

Here is my old-spec Sten MkIII (the dummy silencer came with it but it's probably more suited for a Sten MkII).

The stock is a T-stock and by the positioning of the added sling attachments it looks like a Sten used by Finnish forces. I have obtained an original sling since taking these pics and might add some more recent pictures of this sub-machine gun.

SpitfireIV

Looks like a nice piece Preusse. Who made it, and in what year? Looking forward to seeing the rest!

I have a de-ac SMLE, must get some pics out.

I think the Sten is like the Lee Enfield, not really aestetically pleasing, and somewhat ugly perhaps.....but still they have a certain charm to them, certainly a case of function over form

Dr Strange

CroppyBoy1798 wrote: »

Looks like a nice piece Preusse. Who made it, and in what year? Looking forward to seeing the rest!

I have a de-ac SMLE, must get some pics out.

I think the Sten is like the Lee Enfield, not really aestetically pleasing, and somewhat ugly perhaps.....but still they have a certain charm to them, certainly a case of function over form

Absolutely, they are quite ugly. And easy to make, that's why thousends upon thousends were dropped over German occupied area (like Netherlands) for the resistance groups to use (the 9mm calibre ammo was available throughout the war and easily obtainable). The way they were made (mostly from press-moulded parts) allowed for unskilled workers to mass-produce them in factories.

I would be very interested in your SMLE!

Oh, almost forgot. This Sten was made by Lines Bros Ltd, UK. Have to check exact year. Probably in the later war years.

Also note the pistol grip on the stock, that's usually not there and quite rare.

SpitfireIV

Preusse wrote: »

Oh, almost forgot. This Sten was made by Long Branch in Canada. Have to check exact year. Probably in the later war years.

Also note the pistol grip on the stock, that's usually not there and quite rare.

I had a very interesting link a year back or so, but I cant for the life of me find it now! So annoying , but it had LOTS of pictures of the production plant at Long Branch and Inglis during the war. Showed pictures of No4 Lee Enfields, Brens and Stens at various stages of production.

EDIT: I just found it, , just came back to me where to find it.

http://www.pbase.com/mrclark/root
(Some excellent pics on that site, especially if you like BREN's)


STENs by the barrowload!

Dr Strange

Excellent, CB1798! Thanks for the pics and link!

Corega

Is there any Irish dealers who specialise or even stock deac's? Have been looking for an SMLE or K98 for a while now, and it's a little iffy getting them from the U.K.

Dr Strange

Corega wrote: »

Is there any Irish dealers who specialise or even stock deac's? Have been looking for an SMLE or K98 for a while now, and it's a little iffy getting them from the U.K.

I am not sure, at least I haven't heard about someone specialising only in de-acts. However, I heard that someone is applying for a licence to deal with them so keep you informed about that. I usually get my deactivated weapons from germany or Austria. My local Superintendent knows I am a serious collector and he grants me the Article 7 authorisation for each importation of a deactivated weapon once I provide him with serial numbers, make, deactivating procedures carried out etc.
Once the item has arrived I let him know it's there and he sends someone to check that deactivation is permanent.

I'd rather do it that way then have trouble later. It is a different matter in Germany though, deacts are treated similar to toys/replica/model guns and can be bought without a licence or anything like that.

Best,

Preusse

Witcher

theres a guy up the north in portadown that sells deactvs,

i can get you his number/address if ya want.



:cool::cool::cool:

Dr Strange

blay1 wrote: »

theres a guy up the north in portadown that sells deactvs,

i can get you his number/address if ya want.



:cool::cool::cool:

Thanks blay1. Please send me the details by pm and I will check it out. I will have to see if it is possible to link to militaria dealers or not in this forum. Until then any details about commercial dealers by pm only. Anyone who asks me per pm about reputable dealers for diverse militaria will get some advice. Thanks!

Corega

Could I get a PM as well please. Have been looking into the Airsoft forum too, given that some of the machinery you can get there looks and apparently feels pretty authentic, but I'd much rather have an original, I'm a stickler for history and nostalgia. Preusse, firstly thanks for clearing up those details, secondly that Article 7 thing is the certificate of character no?

Dr Strange

Corega wrote: »

Could I get a PM as well please. Have been looking into the Airsoft forum too, given that some of the machinery you can get there looks and apparently feels pretty authentic, but I'd much rather have an original, I'm a stickler for history and nostalgia. Preusse, firstly thanks for clearing up those details, secondly that Article 7 thing is the certificate of character no?

Hi corega,

no, the Article 7 authorisation certificate is for importing firearms legally into Ireland. You need it either to import firearms in working condition (together with your firearms licence) if you don't buy from a local authorised firearms dealer, and also for deactivated firearms. You have to apply to your local Superintendent for the Article 7 Authorisation. A letter describing exactly what you want is necessary. I found it easier to ask for an appointment to see him/her personally the first time so he/she can get an impression of you right away. Since then I only have to apply by letter if I found another deact I want to bring over. The local officer designated for firearms always checks them out when they arrive.

I am sure some people have bought deactivated firearms without going to their local garda station but I find it easier after they know exactly why I am importing items like these. I think it is a matter of good conduct and I do think it is appreciated by the gardai to make the effort to explain why you have these items at your home.

Dr Strange

Oops, made a mistake. The Sten I posted was manufactured by Lines Bros Ltd. in the UK. Sorry

kowloon

How much hassle is it to actually import deacts?
I looked into it over the last few years but never actually bought anything.
Is it much easier than importing lives or do they manage to make it just as slow and painful a process?

Preusse, how do the German deacts vary from the english?

Dr Strange

kowloon wrote: »

How much hassle is it to actually import deacts?
I looked into it over the last few years but never actually bought anything.
Is it much easier than importing lives or do they manage to make it just as slow and painful a process?

Preusse, how do the German deacts vary from the english?

Hi kowloon,

I think it depends on your Superintendent. I found that once I explained that I am a serious collector and why I collect deacts and not only medals he/she was very helpful and understanding. Never had any problems with getting the Article 7 Authorisation. The new German deacts are completely immovable (similar to the new-spec English ones) and the old-spec ones have a movable system. Common to all these is that the barrel has at least 5-6 calibre size holes drilled into it and a steel pin welded into it as well. The chamber is welded shut with another steel pin and the breech block is cut down at an 45 degrees angle (which incidentally also removes the firing pin) so that no new firing pin can be fitted. Apart from this the English deacts have their proof mark (I think it's Birmingham) and the German ones have the proof mark of the Bundeskriminalamt.

Deactivated weapons in Germany are regarded as toys and freely available for sale and absolutely legal to possess without any kind of certificate. Sending an item from germany to Ireland requires an Article 7 Authorisation, not because of German customs but because of Irish regulations. Any firearm, even deactivated, will require this import licence. If you have a working firearm you will also require a firearms certificate before being issued with an Article 7 authorisation.

In caes of German deactivated firearms I get the details (serial no. deactivation procedures) and photos off the seller and send them to my Superintendent with a letter of application for the Article 7 Import Licence. He in return issues the Article 7, usually by post. I copy it and send a copy to the seller in germany and he/she will put it into the parcel with the deactivated firearm. The parcel is send to my address and once here I inform my local firearms officer that it has arrived. He the arranges to have a look at it in order to see that the serial number matches and that the deactivation procedures are actually the ones submitted with the original application.

It sounds like a lot of work but it really isn't at all. As I mentioned before I think it is a matter of good conduct to involve your local gardai station from the beginning and it is also beneficial if they know that you are a militaria collector as future applications for importing more items are usually granted very quickly.

As imitation firearms are used in criminal activities it may be that your local crime prevention officer will look at your house and how secure it is even for keeping 'only' deactivated firearms at your house.

kowloon

I wouldn't mind a little collection of deacts
I've always wanted a Mosin Nagant M91 that i could wall display (so it can't be live), i have 2 mounted Mosin stocks that were salvaged from the wreck of the Aud in the 70's and an intact rifle would look well with them.

Dr Strange

kowloon wrote: »

I wouldn't mind a little collection of deacts
I've always wanted a Mosin Nagant M91 that i could wall display (so it can't be live), i have 2 mounted Mosin stocks that were salvaged from the wreck of the Aud in the 70's and an intact rifle would look well with them.

Kowloon,

no problem, I can help you with the process. Also I know where you can get good Mosin Nagants for a decent price. already deactivated and with all or almost all matching numbers (a rifle with all matching numbered parts is worth more for collectors than a rifle that looks good but has been assembled with parts from other rifles of the same make but with different serial numbers.).

kowloon

Heres my first attempt at uploading a photo to boards,

Its of 2 M91 stocks recovered from the Aud in 1976, they're driftwood really but other than the few brought up by the admiralty (either as loot for the salvage crew or as evidence for casements trial) most of the existing pieces are in bits.

Dr Strange

These pieces might not be complete, kowloon, but the history behind them makes them collectable! Very nice! Thanks for posting

SpitfireIV

Those two are well deactivated anyway Kowloon Great pieces to have though!! I never realised there was Mosins on the Aud, I've seen a couple of 'remains' of rifles rescued from the Aud, but they were old German rifles.

Dr Strange

My latest deact purchases:

Sten MkII (Manufacturer FF SECO) and Sten MkIII (Manufacturer: Lines Brothers). Also some equipment (magazine pouches, extra mags, pistol-grip for paratroopers, slings and skeleton stocks). The MkIII has a threaded barrel for a silencer.

SpitfireIV

Nice!! Seems like Santa came early to you! I'm extremely jealous!

May I ask how much all that set you back?

Dr Strange

Hi CB1798,

I got a bit lucky with the price. At the moment Sten's go for approx. Stg£ 400.00 in England and just under €400.00. In continental Europe I saw them also for between €250 - 300. For the whole lot I paid €840.00 including the equipment. I'm quite happy with that.

I am looking for the German version of the Sten, the MP3008. Found an old water-damaged one for sale in Germany but it was in poor condition so I didn't buy it. Next on the wish list is a MP38 matching numbers and MP40 matching numbers.

kowloon

Sweet.

Plenty of goodies to go with them aswell.
Was that an auction buy or a shop?

Dr Strange

Hi kowloon,

it was an auction purchase. At the moment I have my eye on a Sten bayonet to complement one of the Stens.

woodser

Offering €1000 for deactivated Lee Enfield €300 for deactivated Smith and Wesson.Also interested in Thompson deacivated give me a price and I'll consider.Have a complete collection of ww2 weapons from the U.S. ,Russian and Geram (Nazi) forces .Missing the three above to complete an almost perfect private WW2museum.Completed the Nazi collection with a Panzerfaust Last week.Got a bazooka from wifey for christmas.P.M, me

Dr Strange

woodser wrote: »

Offering €1000 for deactivated Lee Enfield €300 for deactivated Smith and Wesson.Also interested in Thompson deacivated give me a price and I'll consider.Have a complete collection of ww2 weapons from the U.S. ,Russian and Geram (Nazi) forces .Missing the three above to complete an almost perfect private WW2museum.Completed the Nazi collection with a Panzerfaust Last week.Got a bazooka from wifey for christmas.P.M, me

Have a look at www.egun.de. There's always a Lee Enfield and Thompson for sale in the deact section.

SpitfireIV

woodser wrote: »

Offering €1000 for deactivated Lee Enfield €300 for deactivated Smith and Wesson.Also interested in Thompson deacivated give me a price and I'll consider.Have a complete collection of ww2 weapons from the U.S. ,Russian and Geram (Nazi) forces .Missing the three above to complete an almost perfect private WW2museum.Completed the Nazi collection with a Panzerfaust Last week.Got a bazooka from wifey for christmas.P.M, me

I wouldnt give anyone over €400 for a Lee Enfield, 'perhaps' closer to the €500 mark if it was a pretty good example. Dont be too generous with your money, there'll always be those out there only happy to take it off you! :rolleyes:

I paid €450 for my deac SMLE which was perhaps a little too much at the time, but I wanted one so bad that I didnt even bother haggling with him , they say that something is worth as much as your willing to pay for it.

kowloon

Double post

kowloon

Just spotted that, don't offer a price, ask for a price and don't sound so eager
Unless you're looking for a T model, them are pricey (not sure what they are deactivated)

woodser

Well to be honest nobody has made me an offer of one yet here .Picked up one yesterday for 530 but still interested in another.

SpitfireIV

woodser wrote: »

Well to be honest nobody has made me an offer of one yet here .Picked up one yesterday for 530 but still interested in another.

What did you get?

Dr Strange

woodser wrote: »

Well to be honest nobody has made me an offer of one yet here .Picked up one yesterday for 530 but still interested in another.

Pics would be great!

Grizzly 45

I am looking for the German version of the Sten, the MP3008. Found an old water-damaged one for sale in Germany but it was in poor condition so I didn't buy it. Next on the wish list is a MP38 matching numbers and MP40 matching numbers. [/quote]

Preusse, you could try www.ssd-weapon.de Sport waffen Dittrich.
He makes a semi copy of the potsdam gerat.And I have seen a deact copy for sale in some german gun mag DWJ.
Might be worth a try
Regds
Grizzly45

Dr Strange

Hi Grizzly45,

thanks and welcome to the forum! Yes, I know the Dittrich models. The only problem is that I would rather like an original than a copy.

Best,
Preusse

SpitfireIV

Preusse, you could try www.ssd-weapon.de Sport waffen Dittrich.
He makes a semi copy of the potsdam gerat.And I have seen a deact copy for sale in some german gun mag DWJ.
Might be worth a try
Regds
Grizzly45

Some interesting articles on that site, pity they're in German, cant read it :rolleyes:. The closest I'll ever get to owning an MP40 is one of these me thinks :

http://www.eirsoft.ie/store/product_info.php?products_id=203&osCsid=902f2ea223530bb849910b8c6ea45d85

doubletap

Hi
i have a couple of Lee Enfields a No.1 mk3 and a No.4 mk2 both converted to .410 shotgun. what i am looking for is a Lee Enfield p14 Deact. anyone know of one out there.

SpitfireIV

doubletap wrote: »

Hi
i have a couple of Lee Enfields a No.1 mk3 and a No.4 mk2

Pictures please

Dr Strange

doubletap wrote: »

... what i am looking for is a Lee Enfield p14 Deact. anyone know of one out there.

Hi there,

they do turn up from time to time on www.egun.de

doubletap

CroppyBoy1798 wrote: »

Pictures please

the No.1 Mk.3 is a 1919 Lithgow (on left) and the No.4 Mk.2 is a 1949 from Fazerkly

SpitfireIV

Very nice!

I have a 1918 de-ac No1 MkIII* myself. I'm passionate about Lee Enfields, particularly the No1

Dr Strange

doubletap wrote: »

the No.1 Mk.3 is a 1919 Lithgow (on left) and the No.4 Mk.2 is a 1949 from Fazerkly

Nice rifles! Thanks for sharing them with us. Keep 'em coming.

SpitfireIV

Here's a ew pics of my SMLE and some of its accesories, the weapon is of course deactivated and certified.


Its a No1 MkIII*, made in by Ishapore Small Arms in Bengal, India. It was manufactured in 1918 and as India at that time was part of the British Empire this No1 is made to the exact specs and quality to those produced by BSA, Lithgow, LSA etc etc, (The Ishapores or 'Ishy's' get bad press).

This example has had a particularly eventful life, being that it was made in India it would have been well used and abused! And I believe at some stage in its life it had a spell in Nepal perhaps, lots of nice touch to this example, for instance, the original (very dark!) walnut buttstock, rosewood forearm (many of these were replaced in the 40's with mahogany or teak) and a second variantion nosecap with no lightening cuts, these were only produced by Ishapore between 1917 and 1918 I believe and are as rare as hens teeth! And early 'No 2' magazine and the beloved 'Ishy screw'.

Unfortunately not all the numbers match, the reciever, barrell and rear sight match, the rest are off, but that doesnt bother me

The other items in the picture are a pattern 1903 five pocket bandoleer (black to signify artillery use) dated 1922. A Pattern 1907, Chapman bayonet with issue date of March 1917. A c.1917 relic condition No1 MkII wire cutter, a charger clip with five used .303 shells and a brass oil container and pull through.

I dont even want to think about how much I spent on all this!! :eek: But I dont regret it, I'd have more if it were easy to get!

Enjoy.....

doubletap

where did you get the wire cutter, i've been looking for one for a while.

doubletap

Hi croppyboy1798 the cocking piece on your rifle looks like its from a later period then the rifle, i thing the cocking piece should be round?

SpitfireIV

Hi doubletap, for a 1918 MkIII* the cocking piece is the correct type, the round cocking piece would be more typical of MkIII and early MkIII*'s (1916/17) but they can turn up on MkIII*'s either, all depends what was in the parts bucket at the time and of course parts would have been chopped and changed over the years. For a short period after WW1 Lithgow and BSA reverted back to MKIII standard so you'll find odd combinations of parts. I dont see a cutoff on yours, or the lowered wood by the reciever, but has it got a cut off slot?

The wire cutter I got off e-bay, cant remember what I payed for it, wasnt too much I think, unfortunately its well beyond use , I fabricated a cross bolt and nut to replace the missing original, so it can be fixed to the muzzle of the gun. There are more pics of it in the 'relic and excavated items' thread.

Cheers

Dr Strange

Thanks for the detailed pics of your SMLE, CB1798!

doubletap

CroppyBoy1798 wrote: »

Hi doubletap, for a 1918 MkIII* the cocking piece is the correct type, the round cocking piece would be more typical of MkIII and early MkIII*'s (1916/17) but they can turn up on MkIII*'s either, all depends what was in the parts bucket at the time and of course parts would have been chopped and changed over the years. For a short period after WW1 Lithgow and BSA reverted back to MKIII standard so you'll find odd combinations of parts. I dont see a cutoff on yours, or the lowered wood by the reciever, but has it got a cut off slot?

The wire cutter I got off e-bay, cant remember what I payed for it, wasnt too much I think, unfortunately its well beyond use , I fabricated a cross bolt and nut to replace the missing original, so it can be fixed to the muzzle of the gun. There are more pics of it in the 'relic and excavated items' thread.

Cheers

no cutoff slot but does have windage adjustment on rear sight

arnhem44

Hey everybody,i just joined up and wanted to say thak god theirs people like you guys out there.I've been searching for ages for information regarding buying deactivated guns,i tried the garda website and justice website and they only deal in live weapons,also a friend of mine who is a garda couldn't give me any straight answers so nothing but dead ends everywhere i looked,after reading ye're posts i was wondering do you need to hold a firearms license to be able to import these guns into the country?,and if so can a licence be got without having a live firearm?

SpitfireIV

doubletap wrote: »

no cutoff slot but does have windage adjustment on rear sight

Lithgow, strangely reverted back to MKIII production after WW1 and continued fitting the, by then, obsolete magazine cutoff until '41 or '42 I think, your reciever was possibly made before the changeover or one that was made previously and used. BSA started fitting the cutoffs too, but gave up the practice not long after.

Mine has a windage adjustable rear sight too, but unfortunately the protector 'ears' on mine are the straight, non stepped version typically seen on 2A's or 2A1's :rolleyes:

Dr Strange

arnhem44 wrote: »

Hey everybody,i just joined up and wanted to say thak god theirs people like you guys out there.I've been searching for ages for information regarding buying deactivated guns,i tried the garda website and justice website and they only deal in live weapons,also a friend of mine who is a garda couldn't give me any straight answers so nothing but dead ends everywhere i looked,after reading ye're posts i was wondering do you need to hold a firearms license to be able to import these guns into the country?,and if so can a licence be got without having a live firearm?

Hi Arnhem44,

welcome to the forum! No, you do not need to have a fireamrs licence in order to buy and possess a deactivated firearm. However, you will have to apply to your local Superintendent for an Article 7 authorisation to import a "defective firearm" into the country. S/he may also give you a letter that states that it is ok for you to own a deactivated firearm. In any case your best bet is to talk to your local station about it before applying for the article 7 authorisation. You will need the make and serial number of the deactivated firearm when applying for the authorisation. Any seller of the deact will usually supply that to you on request. If it is an item you saw at auction you may want to contact the seller before bidding to make sure they ship to Ireland. Also ask them if it would be ok for you as the winning bidder to wait with the shipment of the item until you have the Art. 7. They are usually ok with it as long as you have already payed in advance. However, it is no use to bid on an item before you even know that you can get an Article 7 as you are obliged to pay the auction fee in any case. So you might end up paying for something but it will be stuck in another country because of the lack of import licence.

Hope that helps a bit.

arnhem44

Hi Preusse,thank you so much for the information,its gladly recieved,i feel like ive been banging my head against the wall for ages over this,i've collected helmets medals and the odd bayonet for sometime now but its the ww2 weapons that really interest me,i was wondering if anyone here had ever bought anything off a site called SpecialistAuctions.com or rytonarms.co.uk,the latter posts here.once again thanks for the info:)