One in four Germans believes that the Nazis had their good side

Ekancone

Interesting stuff:

One in four Germans believes that the Nazis had their good side, according to an extraordinary opinion survey published in Berlin yesterday.

The findings are the result of a gradual loosening of taboos about discussing the Third Reich after 60 years of tight-lipped political caution.

Recent German-made films have attracted mass audiences by depicting Hitler as sad and mad as well as bad, or even as an impotent comic figure playing with toy battleships in his bath. Bestselling authors, meanwhile, have been praising Nazi achievements and harking back to the good, or at least not so bad, old days.

The latest clash of cultures — between a taboo-breaker and a guardian of the politically correct — came in a prime-time television chat show. Germany’s former leading television anchorwoman, Eva Herman, was expelled from the studio by the popular host Johannes Kerner after praising the motorway construction of the Hitler era.

“I mean, autobahns were built then, weren’t they?” Ms Herman said. “And we’re still driving on them today.”

“Autobahn geht halt nicht,” snapped Kerner — roughly meaning, “Autobahns are a step too far” — before asking Ms Herman to leave. Newspapers have been swamped by post supporting her.

The survey, conducted by the Forsa institute after the chatshow incident, asked whether National Socialism had its good sides, citing not only the autobahns, but also the lower crime rates, the creation of full employment and the supposed respect for family values. On average 25 per cent of the sample agreed that there had been a sunny side to the Nazis. Some 37 per cent of the over-60s supported the idea.

“You can’t say all these people are Nazis,” said Ulrich Dovermann, head of the department of extremism at the Federal Centre for Political Education. “Praise for the Third Reich is only one of several components that make up a far-right worldview.” Eva Herman does not rank herself as a neo-Nazi and has been at pains to distance herself from her newfound politically dubious fans. Her bestselling books plead for a return to old-fashioned family values. In presenting her latest book, which accuses feminists of humiliating stay-at-home mothers and castrating men, she described the Hitler regime as a “time of cruelty”. She added: “There were things that were good too — the values, the children, the mothers, the families, the sense of solidarity.” That cost her job as an anchorwoman and presenter of a talk show.

Supporters of Herman —who presumably are among the 25 per cent registered in the Forsa survey — say that they want to recover the German language and its debating culture. “I just have to learn that one cannot talk about our history without running into trouble,” Ms Herman said.

Critics say that the crude listing of Nazi achievements is an attempt to cancel out or mitigate Nazi crimes. “There are plainly millions of people who share Eva Herman’s thoughts,” said Andreas Petzold, Editor of Stern magazine, which published the Forsa study. “But these people ignore the fact that the Third Reich can only be viewed through the prism of its end.”

Autobahns were encouraged to transport soldiers, motherhood sponsored in order to provide cannon fodder. Families were supported — but only those of healthy Aryan Germans.

So then, a return to the right slowly creeping in within Europe? Discuss...



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2690152.ece

Tigger

daithifleming wrote: »

Interesting stuff:



So then, a return to the right slowly creeping in within Europe? Discuss...



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2690152.ece

i have talked to many germans about their nazi guilt and they dont have enough if you ask me

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

how many of the germans you spoke to were over 57 years old?

Dinxminx

I don't think this generation's Germans should have to pay for what the last generation did (or the generation before that - I'm quite sketchy with the details....).

Also, the autobahn thing is kind of true.

hopalong85

rbd wrote: »

i have talked to many germans about their nazi guilt and they dont have enough if you ask me

No German who wasn't born or wasn't an adult during the nazi regime has any reason to feel guilt.

Tigger

Mordeth wrote: »

how many of the germans you spoke to were over 57 years old?

a good few or at least it was like 15 years ago and they would have been in their 40's and 50's and sixties (sic)

do you doubt my inteligence and sampling skillz

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

I would have, but your proper usage of the word 'skillz' has left me not knowing what to believe...

Tigger

Dinxminx wrote: »

I don't think this generation's Germans should have to pay for what the last generation did (or the generation before that - I'm quite sketchy with the details....).

Also, the autobahn thing is kind of true.

no but i'm slightly nervous that think thats there is a good side to what happened

it was a crazy example of mob mentallaty and following

hopalong85

fo shizzle

Tigger

Mordeth wrote: »

I would have, but your proper usage of the word 'skillz' has left me not knowing what to believe...

that pleases me :cool:

Popel

ehh, nice sensationalist topic, but maybe you could do a bit of research first? Maybe you could start on Italien politics, then perhaps French politics, have a look at the political leanings of a lot of the German police-authorities, then perhaps research the number of racial attacks in the former East-Germany....then perhaps you´d reassess your question about ´far-right politics slowly creeping back´.... it´s never left, and its political comeback seems to be fast and strong, unfortunately.

geuro

i have talked to many germans about their nazi guilt and they dont have enough if you ask me

The Holocaust is a blight on European history and a stark reminder of the evil that human beings are capable of.

I don't think it is fair to expect somebody to feel guilty about something that happened before they were born, just because they happened to be born in the same place. There is a serious right wing problem in Europe at the moment, but it certainly is not specific (or even at its most worrying) in Germany. Check out an election poster for the SVP (Swiss peoples party. - image attached) These guys have been described as overtly racist by the UN, and have over a quarter of the vote.

To expect Germans who had no more to do with the Holocaust than yourself to feel guilt about fascism isn't fair.

Ekancone

Popel wrote: »

ehh, nice sensationalist topic, but maybe you could do a bit of research first? Maybe you could start on Italien politics, then perhaps French politics, have a look at the political leanings of a lot of the German police-authorities, then perhaps research the number of racial attacks in the former East-Germany....then perhaps you´d reassess your question about ´far-right politics slowly creeping back´.... it´s never left, and its political comeback seems to be fast and strong, unfortunately.

Do all that research for what purpose, to post it on a forum to a bunch of strangers? I have better things to be doing. This is just a prediction of mine from the past few years, as soon as things start becoming too strained regarding the problem of immigration, you will see a vicious swing to the right in central Europe. The next 20-30 years i'd say, maybe sooner.

Tigger

Popel wrote: »

ehh, nice sensationalist topic, but maybe you could do a bit of research first? Maybe you could start on Italien politics, then perhaps French politics, have a look at the political leanings of a lot of the German police-authorities, then perhaps research the number of racial attacks in the former East-Germany....then perhaps you´d reassess your question about ´far-right politics slowly creeping back´.... it´s never left, and its political comeback seems to be fast and strong, unfortunately.

dude i've been hanging round here one day and i already realise that its not about the serious research its chatty.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

no.. you do the research so you'll have an opinion more grounded in fact than supposition....

leninbenjamin

how about the yingyang? of course they had their good side... every cold faced mother ****ing rapist has his good side... some people take all this waay too far at times... why can we not say Hitlers plans for road building and trains were a good thing? they clearly were... using that kind of logic everyone with a tash is morally evil and deserves to die.

and how does saying that autobahn were a good thing automatically mean the extreme right is creeping up?

dumb thread with some dumb postings imo...

Pompey Magnus

I think it is very fair to say that the Nazis and Hitler did do good things in their time in power, it is just that the bad they did far outweighs this. They were not composed of 100% pure evil and it always annoys me when people try to oversimplify the period by making out that this was the case. I feel that this attitude detracts from the credibility of actual well thought out condemnation of the Nazi regime.

Tigger

geuro wrote: »

The Holocaust is a blight on European history and a stark reminder of the evil that human beings are capable of.

I don't think it is fair to expect somebody to feel guilty about something that happened before they were born, just because they happened to be born in the same place. There is a serious right wing problem in Europe at the moment, but it certainly is not specific (or even at its most worrying) in Germany. Check out an election poster for the SVP (Swiss peoples party. - image attached) These guys have been described as overtly racist by the UN, and have over a quarter of the vote.

To expect Germans who had no more to do with the Holocaust than yourself to feel guilt about fascism isn't fair.

they were born
they didn't act they followed

read the thread m-okaaay

Ekancone

Mordeth wrote: »

no.. you do the research so you'll have an opinion more grounded in fact than supposition....

So im not allowed have an opinion unless i do a load of research? You over-rate the value of expertise.

Blowfish

Nazi's did have their good side though, it was just massively overwhelmed by their evil side. When looking at National Socialism, the 'Socialism' part of it is actually fine, the dominant 'National' part is where the incredible amount of evil and hatred comes from.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Everyone's allowed an opinion, just as we're all allowed to ignore the opinions of people who don't take a while to look at the facts of a situation before opining..

leninbenjamin

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I think it is very fair to say that the Nazis and Hitler did do good things in their time in power, it is just that the bad they did far outweighs this. They were not composed of 100% pure evil and it always annoys me when people try to oversimplify the period by making out that this was the case. I feel that this attitude detracts from the credibility of actual well thought out condemnation of the Nazi regime.

that sums it up perfectly. very good post.

there's a general tendency to take this very black or white attitude into every other aspect of life, and i find it very unhealthy at times.

Tigger

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I think it is very fair to say that the Nazis and Hitler did do good things in their time in power, it is just that the bad they did far outweighs this. They were not composed of 100% pure evil and it always annoys me when people try to oversimplify the period by making out that this was the case. I feel that this attitude detracts from the credibility of actual well thought out condemnation of the Nazi regime.

how was this improvement programe funded?

how was it staged

how come they all went along with the masterplan


right wing fanatisim is never a good idea sure every cloud has its silver an all that but thats just like saying that if msra wipes out all the sick in hospitals at least wee'll have solved the hse crisis

geuro

do you doubt my inteligence and sampling skillz

Yes. Your spelling too.

Blowfish

rbd wrote: »

right wing fanatisim is never a good idea sure every cloud has its silver an all that but thats just like saying that if msra wipes out all the sick in hospitals at least wee'll have solved the hse crisis

But that's just it, National Socialism falls both under right wing and left wing in different aspects.

Tigger

spelling naizs are the lowest form of twit

pwd

I think there will be a strong increase in the popularity of Nazism in Ireland in the near future.

There is a correlation between economic downturn and the popularity of Nazi-type ideas.
There has been a huge number of immigrants into Ireland in the last decade or so. Many of whom have not integrated well.
A lot of them are economic immigrants, who are prepared to work for less than natives with similar skills, or who are in receipt of benefits.
Irish culture is in decline in my opinion, and I think a lot of people would agree with me. I do not know to what extent, if any, this is down to immigrants, but they certainly are an easy scapegoat for it. (Personally I think it is more to do with corporate and media influence, and increasing materialism caused by the economic bubble)
The ironically-named War on Terror also sells the idea that racism is ok, as long as we're all racist against the same government-approved groups.

I think these factors will combine to unfortunate effect.

Tigger

Blowfish wrote: »

But that's just it, National Socialism falls both under right wing and left wing in different aspects.

i agree have you seen the political compass

linkety link

http://http://politicalcompass.org/

digitally-yours

geuro wrote: »

The Holocaust is a blight on European history and a stark reminder of the evil that human beings are capable of.

I don't think it is fair to expect somebody to feel guilty about something that happened before they were born, just because they happened to be born in the same place. There is a serious right wing problem in Europe at the moment, but it certainly is not specific (or even at its most worrying) in Germany. Check out an election poster for the SVP (Swiss peoples party. - image attached) These guys have been described as overtly racist by the UN, and have over a quarter of the vote.

To expect Germans who had no more to do with the Holocaust than yourself to feel guilt about fascism isn't fair.

The sheep row is covered here
Incase someone wants to know the background

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6980766.stm

geuro

spelling naizs are the lowest form of twit

naizs?

Ekancone

Mordeth wrote: »

Everyone's allowed an opinion, just as we're all allowed to ignore the opinions of people who don't take a while to look at the facts of a situation before opining..

Nice one, best of luck.

Tigger

geuro wrote: »

naizs?

does the hat fit then; lol

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

daithifleming wrote: »

Nice one, best of luck.

sound, enjoy yourself.

Orange69

The Nazi's, a great bunch of lads

An Citeog

Brilliant, another sensationalist thread borne out of a nothing remark. :rolleyes:

It's a fact that the autobahn construction, carried out by the Nazis, was a good thing. During the initial years of the NSDAP regime, there was a huge economic upturn and the German people were sucked in. I'm in no way defending any of the despicable actions carried out by the Nazis but to label every German person at the time as inherently evil is also wrong. You also have to look at Germany in the 1920's and the devestating effects that the Treaty of Versailles had on the country and its economy.

RBD, why should every German person feel guilty about their past? And what entitles you to judge whether or not the level of guilt is sufficient? The Nazis are still a taboo topic in Germany and without feeling an overwhelming sense of guilt, people just tend to avoid the subject altogether. Should the entire English population also feel guilty about some of the atrocities committed by their nation? How about the Irish, French, Americans etc?

You might want to learn a bit more about German culture before you decide to offer such insightful opinions. :rolleyes:

Blowfish

rbd wrote: »

i agree have you seen the political compass

linkety link

http://http://politicalcompass.org/

I've seen that before, but it's been a while since I took it so I did it again. Apparently I'm Gandhi

keefg

Mordeth wrote: »

no.. you do the research so you'll have an opinion more grounded in fact than supposition....

Hmm, I'm not so sure Mordeth.........I suppose my neighbour is a witch. I have nothing more to go on that she....

a) Wears a lot of flowing black skirts.
b) Long scraggy hair
c) Owns a cat

I have done no further research but the facts I have are good enough for me :eek:



Anyway......back on topic.....

Tigger

An Citeog wrote: »

Brilliant, another sensationalist thread borne out of a nothing remark. :rolleyes:

is that not what this forum is for

serious discussion on serious topics surely would belong in a politic forum

fact

bold type facce so it must be true well thereis no arguing with that

RBD, why should every German person feel guilty about their past? And what entitles you to judge whether or not the level of guilt is sufficient?

i said in my opinion or i feel or some suitalbe qualifier as i knew ther'd be concequences if i didn't so my answer is it my opinion i'm not judging i'm jus giving my opinion

The Nazis are still a taboo topic in Germany and without feeling an overwhelming sense of guilt, people just tend to avoid the subject altogether. Should the entire English population also feel guilty about some of the atrocities committed by their nation? How about the Irish, French, Americans etc?

what did the irish and french do?

nothing thats what i've cunningly used bold here so thats him stuffed

You might want to learn a bit more about German culture before you decide to offer such insightful opinions. :rolleyes:

what like getting up early and putting towels on sunloungers ?

oh and i see that you admit its just my opinion

Tigger

keefg wrote: »

Hmm, I'm not so sure Mordeth.........I suppose my neighbour is a witch. I have nothing more to go on that she....

a) Wears a lot of flowing black skirts.
b) Long scraggy hair
c) Owns a cat

I have done no further research but the facts I have are good enough for me :eek:



Anyway......back on topic.....

[muffels self] NEWT [/muffels self]

Tigger

Blowfish wrote: »

I've seen that before, but it's been a while since I took it so I did it again. Apparently I'm Gandhi

i'm very not gandhi

Kess73

These polls make me laugh. "One in four believe Nazis had their good sides"

It could also be taken as "Three in four do not think Nazis had their good side"


Things can be twisted and taken whatever way a reader wants to.

humanji

rbd wrote: »

what did the irish and french do?

nothing thats what i've cunningly used bold here so thats him stuffed

Well, by your reasoning, should you not feel guilty because of all the things the IRA did? Or because that Swiss girl was murdered? Or that some prick illegibly sprayed his name on my back wall? Why should people feel guilty for something if they've no real connection to it?

Tigger

Kess73 wrote: »

These polls make me laugh. "One in four believe Nazis had their good sides"

It could also be taken as "Three in four do not think Nazis had their good side"


Things can be twisted and taken whatever way a reader wants to.

yes funny

originaly posted by some bigwig;

Before you post a thread, consider the following:

- Is what I'm about to post relevant, coherent, funny or in any way interesting to other people?

- Does it add to the forum or is it another thread which is taking up space?

- Has it been posted before?

- Is it suitable for this forum?

An Citeog

rbd wrote: »

what did the irish and french do?

nothing thats what i've cunningly used bold here so thats him stuffed

Ever heard of Napoleon? What about the IRA? I'm not actually going to back this up with any facts and am prepared to judge the whole French nation based on their use of the guillotine. Should every nationalist sympathiser feel a sense of responsibility for atrocities such as the Omagh bombing and countless other campaigns in England?

rbd wrote:

what like getting up early and putting towels on sunloungers ?

oh and i see that you admit its just my opinion

Wtf?

Tigger

humanji wrote: »

Well, by your reasoning, should you not feel guilty because of all the things the IRA did? Or because that Swiss girl was murdered? Or that some prick illegibly sprayed his name on my back wall? Why should people feel guilty for something if they've no real connection to it?

did you not see the bold?

i wrote in bold look <points>

Orange69

Blowfish wrote: »

I've seen that before, but it's been a while since I took it so I did it again. Apparently I'm Gandhi

I come out between the Dali Lama and Mandella, i figured i was more hard line than that..?

Tigger

Orange69 wrote: »

I come out between the Dali Lama and Mandella, i figured i was more hard line than that..?

mandella mr or mrs

she is quite hard line

Orange69

rbd wrote: »

mandella mr or mrs

she is quite hard line

Mr I believe.. it didn't say...

Tigger

Orange69 wrote: »

Mr I believe.. it didn't say...

thats probably it

palaver

We all know ( or maybe you don't) that the Brits are obsessed with Hitler/Nazis, more so than the Germans are guilt-ridden. And now Murdoch's Times writes an article that delights all British airheads with poor history knowledge and the Irish sing the chorus to it. Isn't the Times the very same rag that picks up any morsel against Ireland, too? No?

The quotes in above article are completely out of context. I followed the whole story in more serious publications and it's more complex than the Brits are capable to describe it.

That films about Hitler show a more comic side apparantly just prooves that ther Germans learn to laugh.

Anyway, polls are done with random people in limited numbers, and you can read anything in the results, depending on the questions asked and the complexity of answers given.

Sure you believe everything which is written in British rags?
In that case, just you wait until we come over and show you ...

mike65

Meh. All this might suggest is a classic case of "bounceback", for 60 years Germans have been made to feel guilty and suffocated under a Verboten dictate, not talking about nazism and its legacy has not been healthy for Germany. Now the cracks have appeared its quite possible that the 3rd Reich will actually get a slightly better press than it should. Hopefully balance will be achieved and ordinary Germans will be able to talk about 33-45 in a 'normal' fashion.

palaver I think you are confusing The Times with the Sun.

Mike.