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One in four Germans believes that the Nazis had their good side

  • 19-10-2007 04:07PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭


    Interesting stuff:
    One in four Germans believes that the Nazis had their good side, according to an extraordinary opinion survey published in Berlin yesterday.

    The findings are the result of a gradual loosening of taboos about discussing the Third Reich after 60 years of tight-lipped political caution.

    Recent German-made films have attracted mass audiences by depicting Hitler as sad and mad as well as bad, or even as an impotent comic figure playing with toy battleships in his bath. Bestselling authors, meanwhile, have been praising Nazi achievements and harking back to the good, or at least not so bad, old days.

    The latest clash of cultures — between a taboo-breaker and a guardian of the politically correct — came in a prime-time television chat show. Germany’s former leading television anchorwoman, Eva Herman, was expelled from the studio by the popular host Johannes Kerner after praising the motorway construction of the Hitler era.

    “I mean, autobahns were built then, weren’t they?” Ms Herman said. “And we’re still driving on them today.”

    “Autobahn geht halt nicht,” snapped Kerner — roughly meaning, “Autobahns are a step too far” — before asking Ms Herman to leave. Newspapers have been swamped by post supporting her.

    The survey, conducted by the Forsa institute after the chatshow incident, asked whether National Socialism had its good sides, citing not only the autobahns, but also the lower crime rates, the creation of full employment and the supposed respect for family values. On average 25 per cent of the sample agreed that there had been a sunny side to the Nazis. Some 37 per cent of the over-60s supported the idea.

    “You can’t say all these people are Nazis,” said Ulrich Dovermann, head of the department of extremism at the Federal Centre for Political Education. “Praise for the Third Reich is only one of several components that make up a far-right worldview.” Eva Herman does not rank herself as a neo-Nazi and has been at pains to distance herself from her newfound politically dubious fans. Her bestselling books plead for a return to old-fashioned family values. In presenting her latest book, which accuses feminists of humiliating stay-at-home mothers and castrating men, she described the Hitler regime as a “time of cruelty”. She added: “There were things that were good too — the values, the children, the mothers, the families, the sense of solidarity.” That cost her job as an anchorwoman and presenter of a talk show.

    Supporters of Herman —who presumably are among the 25 per cent registered in the Forsa survey — say that they want to recover the German language and its debating culture. “I just have to learn that one cannot talk about our history without running into trouble,” Ms Herman said.

    Critics say that the crude listing of Nazi achievements is an attempt to cancel out or mitigate Nazi crimes. “There are plainly millions of people who share Eva Herman’s thoughts,” said Andreas Petzold, Editor of Stern magazine, which published the Forsa study. “But these people ignore the fact that the Third Reich can only be viewed through the prism of its end.”

    Autobahns were encouraged to transport soldiers, motherhood sponsored in order to provide cannon fodder. Families were supported — but only those of healthy Aryan Germans.

    So then, a return to the right slowly creeping in within Europe? Discuss...



    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2690152.ece

    Did th NAZIS have a good (useful) side? 113 votes

    Yes.
    0% 0 votes
    No.
    45% 51 votes
    Through war, they did come up with some useful inventions.
    11% 13 votes
    They were murderous bastards.
    27% 31 votes
    I'm logging in BossArky.
    15% 18 votes


«134567

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Interesting stuff:



    So then, a return to the right slowly creeping in within Europe? Discuss...



    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2690152.ece


    i have talked to many germans about their nazi guilt and they dont have enough if you ask me


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,554 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    how many of the germans you spoke to were over 57 years old?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 848 ✭✭✭Dinxminx


    I don't think this generation's Germans should have to pay for what the last generation did (or the generation before that - I'm quite sketchy with the details....).

    Also, the autobahn thing is kind of true.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭hopalong85


    rbd wrote: »
    i have talked to many germans about their nazi guilt and they dont have enough if you ask me

    No German who wasn't born or wasn't an adult during the nazi regime has any reason to feel guilt.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Mordeth wrote: »
    how many of the germans you spoke to were over 57 years old?


    a good few or at least it was like 15 years ago and they would have been in their 40's and 50's and sixties (sic)

    do you doubt my inteligence and sampling skillz


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,554 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    I would have, but your proper usage of the word 'skillz' has left me not knowing what to believe...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Dinxminx wrote: »
    I don't think this generation's Germans should have to pay for what the last generation did (or the generation before that - I'm quite sketchy with the details....).

    Also, the autobahn thing is kind of true.


    no but i'm slightly nervous that think thats there is a good side to what happened

    it was a crazy example of mob mentallaty and following


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭hopalong85


    fo shizzle


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Mordeth wrote: »
    I would have, but your proper usage of the word 'skillz' has left me not knowing what to believe...


    that pleases me :cool:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭Popel


    ehh, nice sensationalist topic, but maybe you could do a bit of research first? Maybe you could start on Italien politics, then perhaps French politics, have a look at the political leanings of a lot of the German police-authorities, then perhaps research the number of racial attacks in the former East-Germany....then perhaps you´d reassess your question about ´far-right politics slowly creeping back´.... it´s never left, and its political comeback seems to be fast and strong, unfortunately.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 336 ✭✭geuro


    i have talked to many germans about their nazi guilt and they dont have enough if you ask me

    The Holocaust is a blight on European history and a stark reminder of the evil that human beings are capable of.

    I don't think it is fair to expect somebody to feel guilty about something that happened before they were born, just because they happened to be born in the same place. There is a serious right wing problem in Europe at the moment, but it certainly is not specific (or even at its most worrying) in Germany. Check out an election poster for the SVP (Swiss peoples party. - image attached) These guys have been described as overtly racist by the UN, and have over a quarter of the vote.

    To expect Germans who had no more to do with the Holocaust than yourself to feel guilt about fascism isn't fair.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Ekancone


    Popel wrote: »
    ehh, nice sensationalist topic, but maybe you could do a bit of research first? Maybe you could start on Italien politics, then perhaps French politics, have a look at the political leanings of a lot of the German police-authorities, then perhaps research the number of racial attacks in the former East-Germany....then perhaps you´d reassess your question about ´far-right politics slowly creeping back´.... it´s never left, and its political comeback seems to be fast and strong, unfortunately.

    Do all that research for what purpose, to post it on a forum to a bunch of strangers? I have better things to be doing. This is just a prediction of mine from the past few years, as soon as things start becoming too strained regarding the problem of immigration, you will see a vicious swing to the right in central Europe. The next 20-30 years i'd say, maybe sooner.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Popel wrote: »
    ehh, nice sensationalist topic, but maybe you could do a bit of research first? Maybe you could start on Italien politics, then perhaps French politics, have a look at the political leanings of a lot of the German police-authorities, then perhaps research the number of racial attacks in the former East-Germany....then perhaps you´d reassess your question about ´far-right politics slowly creeping back´.... it´s never left, and its political comeback seems to be fast and strong, unfortunately.

    dude i've been hanging round here one day and i already realise that its not about the serious research its chatty.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,554 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    no.. you do the research so you'll have an opinion more grounded in fact than supposition....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭leninbenjamin


    how about the yingyang? of course they had their good side... every cold faced mother ****ing rapist has his good side... some people take all this waay too far at times... why can we not say Hitlers plans for road building and trains were a good thing? they clearly were... using that kind of logic everyone with a tash is morally evil and deserves to die.

    and how does saying that autobahn were a good thing automatically mean the extreme right is creeping up?

    dumb thread with some dumb postings imo...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    I think it is very fair to say that the Nazis and Hitler did do good things in their time in power, it is just that the bad they did far outweighs this. They were not composed of 100% pure evil and it always annoys me when people try to oversimplify the period by making out that this was the case. I feel that this attitude detracts from the credibility of actual well thought out condemnation of the Nazi regime.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    geuro wrote: »
    The Holocaust is a blight on European history and a stark reminder of the evil that human beings are capable of.

    I don't think it is fair to expect somebody to feel guilty about something that happened before they were born, just because they happened to be born in the same place. There is a serious right wing problem in Europe at the moment, but it certainly is not specific (or even at its most worrying) in Germany. Check out an election poster for the SVP (Swiss peoples party. - image attached) These guys have been described as overtly racist by the UN, and have over a quarter of the vote.

    To expect Germans who had no more to do with the Holocaust than yourself to feel guilt about fascism isn't fair.


    they were born
    they didn't act they followed

    read the thread m-okaaay


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Ekancone


    Mordeth wrote: »
    no.. you do the research so you'll have an opinion more grounded in fact than supposition....

    So im not allowed have an opinion unless i do a load of research? You over-rate the value of expertise.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Blowfish


    Nazi's did have their good side though, it was just massively overwhelmed by their evil side. When looking at National Socialism, the 'Socialism' part of it is actually fine, the dominant 'National' part is where the incredible amount of evil and hatred comes from.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,554 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    Everyone's allowed an opinion, just as we're all allowed to ignore the opinions of people who don't take a while to look at the facts of a situation before opining..


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭leninbenjamin


    I think it is very fair to say that the Nazis and Hitler did do good things in their time in power, it is just that the bad they did far outweighs this. They were not composed of 100% pure evil and it always annoys me when people try to oversimplify the period by making out that this was the case. I feel that this attitude detracts from the credibility of actual well thought out condemnation of the Nazi regime.

    that sums it up perfectly. very good post.

    there's a general tendency to take this very black or white attitude into every other aspect of life, and i find it very unhealthy at times.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    I think it is very fair to say that the Nazis and Hitler did do good things in their time in power, it is just that the bad they did far outweighs this. They were not composed of 100% pure evil and it always annoys me when people try to oversimplify the period by making out that this was the case. I feel that this attitude detracts from the credibility of actual well thought out condemnation of the Nazi regime.


    how was this improvement programe funded?

    how was it staged

    how come they all went along with the masterplan


    right wing fanatisim is never a good idea sure every cloud has its silver an all that but thats just like saying that if msra wipes out all the sick in hospitals at least wee'll have solved the hse crisis


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 336 ✭✭geuro


    do you doubt my inteligence and sampling skillz

    Yes. Your spelling too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Blowfish


    rbd wrote: »
    right wing fanatisim is never a good idea sure every cloud has its silver an all that but thats just like saying that if msra wipes out all the sick in hospitals at least wee'll have solved the hse crisis
    But that's just it, National Socialism falls both under right wing and left wing in different aspects.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    spelling naizs are the lowest form of twit


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭pwd


    I think there will be a strong increase in the popularity of Nazism in Ireland in the near future.

    There is a correlation between economic downturn and the popularity of Nazi-type ideas.
    There has been a huge number of immigrants into Ireland in the last decade or so. Many of whom have not integrated well.
    A lot of them are economic immigrants, who are prepared to work for less than natives with similar skills, or who are in receipt of benefits.
    Irish culture is in decline in my opinion, and I think a lot of people would agree with me. I do not know to what extent, if any, this is down to immigrants, but they certainly are an easy scapegoat for it. (Personally I think it is more to do with corporate and media influence, and increasing materialism caused by the economic bubble)
    The ironically-named War on Terror also sells the idea that racism is ok, as long as we're all racist against the same government-approved groups.

    I think these factors will combine to unfortunate effect.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Blowfish wrote: »
    But that's just it, National Socialism falls both under right wing and left wing in different aspects.

    i agree have you seen the political compass

    linkety link

    http://http://politicalcompass.org/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭digitally-yours


    geuro wrote: »
    The Holocaust is a blight on European history and a stark reminder of the evil that human beings are capable of.

    I don't think it is fair to expect somebody to feel guilty about something that happened before they were born, just because they happened to be born in the same place. There is a serious right wing problem in Europe at the moment, but it certainly is not specific (or even at its most worrying) in Germany. Check out an election poster for the SVP (Swiss peoples party. - image attached) These guys have been described as overtly racist by the UN, and have over a quarter of the vote.

    To expect Germans who had no more to do with the Holocaust than yourself to feel guilt about fascism isn't fair.

    The sheep row is covered here
    Incase someone wants to know the background

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6980766.stm


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 336 ✭✭geuro


    spelling naizs are the lowest form of twit

    naizs?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Ekancone


    Mordeth wrote: »
    Everyone's allowed an opinion, just as we're all allowed to ignore the opinions of people who don't take a while to look at the facts of a situation before opining..

    Nice one, best of luck.


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