The end of Bok rugby as we know it is nigh

cavedave

Originally Posted by Hagar View Post
I saw SA play Fiji last week, a great team but even my 13 year old son remarked at the number of white folk on the team. The innocence of youth.

Did he ask about why there was so few Indo-Fijians on the Fijian team? Or in the Fijian government for that matter.

marco_polo

ThomasH wrote: »

15 Years ago our school rugby team u/16 played against a local black neighbourhood school. We hammered them (96-0) as most of the guys in our team started playing rugby since they were 6. Our coach spoke to their coach after the game and he said most of his players (15 and 16 years old) only started playing 1-2 years ago. They played like 6 years old, which proves that they still had a lot of catch up to do.

Fast forward to today and take a look at the SA Cravenweek (Doctor Danie Craven tournament for SA provinces) and you will see that a lot of good and quality coloured players play for their respective provinces. There is a lot of skill, pace and brains amongst these players. But to start throwing these youngsters in the national team could end their careers at an early stage. Introduce them slowly to club, currie cup and S14 rugby and from there take it to the national side. These developments and experience takes time and I reckon within 10 years time SA will have a huge pool of coloured players ready for national selection and no one will have an issue if there is 8-10 Bryan Habana's in the team

Many a good young player has been massively set back by being introduced to international action too soon. If these young black players are played against the likes of the AB before they are ready it could really set their careers back.

One example I can think of is Matthew Tait who had a torrid time as an 18 year old debutant against Wales in 2005 and has only recently restablished himself in the England side. Tommy Bowe is another good example of throwing someone in to test rugby too soon.

ThomasH

Many a good young player has been massively set back by being introduced to international action too soon. If these young black players are played against the likes of the AB before they are ready it could really set their careers back.

One example I can think of is Matthew Tait who had a torrid time as an 18 year old debutant against Wales in 2005 and has only recently restablished himself in the England side. Tommy Bowe is another good example of throwing someone in to test rugby too soon.

Very True.

daveirl

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cavedave

You're right, having a policy of choosing players playing in Ireland ahead of those playing abroad like Ireland or New Zealand do is clearly exactly the same as choosing people based on the colour of their skin.

I never said that.
I did imply Irish rugby may not be a meritocracy.

daveirl

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cavedave

And you understand that not being a meritocracy based on factors other than race or sexual orientation, factors that may impact your rugby playing ability is very very very different situation?

I am talking about factors that do not come into your rugby playing ability, Hence meritocracy.

Picking (or not) a player based on race or sexual orientation are beyond the pale.

Where do you draw the line on where you can pick a player not based on their ability?

Based on actions of your father (As is alleged to have occured recently in SA)?
Based on what country you were born in? the province you were born in? on what you have previously said to the media? on criminal convictions?

What is an acceptable reason not to pick a better player (factors that do not come into your rugby playing ability)?

daveirl

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cavedave

And that's what they are doing/want to do, so where's the argument?

I would hope there is not argument about racism being wrong. So if the only argument allowed is about racism this thread would be one post long.

What lines other people draw in the sand for selection decisions is immaterial.

In the discussion of steroid use discussion of creatine and growth hormone were also allowed. These were other substances that people took to improve performance and so were on topic.

In a discussion of racism other things people do to avoid a meritocracy should also be open to discussion. Racism, Homophobia and many more bad things come from the same human ability to lie to ourselves to make us feel we are better then other people for arbitrary non merit reasons. Unless you discuss this human ability (and its place in rugby) you will only move the prejudice onto something else rather then attack its root cause.

bugler

I hope the rest of World Rugby opposes this vehemently. It will do no one any good in rugby terms.

daveirl

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dc69

when every major international country put sa under huge presure to basically get rid of apartied or else,they did,but they knew what would happen and thats why they were reluctant.
now that the whites in SA are getting murdered like flies

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=23871

and the country has gone to absolute ****e,the health minister claims lemon juice cures aids lol and a reverse apartied has taken place,its an absolute disgrace that these countrys that pushed them to get rid of apartied dont help them.

Pplitics and sport should be aired in the same sentence but sadly thats the way it has to be

Its sad that a player gets chosen becuase of his skin colour,to me thats blatant racism.in SA rugby like in Ireland is played by majority private schools and that is why there are not many blacks,nothing to do with colour,they are not going to private schools and are not at the same level,its a simple fact.

I was also reading that they dont count habana or pieterson as black,they are "mixed race" and they are not safe from these black quotas either,i find that laughable.Habana deserves to be on that team becuase he is a good player,but the history books will say it was because he is black.Its doing him and pieterson a diservice also!I know that last statement is a bit contradicting but thats how it will be written:(

Hamo

RWC people, stick with the debate content regarding Rugby surely...

dc69

Hamo wrote: »

RWC people, stick with the debate content regarding Rugby surely...

well the politics in that country have a huge amount to do with their rugby,so it is valid imo

gosplan

None of this has actually happened yet and to be honest beating England on Saturday will go a long way towards ensuring that it doesn't happen.

Historically, it's easy to see the reasons why things like this would be suggested but any action taken on it would be swiftly reversed bfolllowing a massive dip in competitiveness.

To whoever it was that suggested there are white and black mans sports - get a grip.

T-Maxx

dc69 wrote: »

In SA rugby like in Ireland is played by majority private schools and that is why there are not many blacks,nothing to do with colour,they are not going to private schools and are not at the same level,its a simple fact.

Wrong. Rugby in SA is played in all schools. Private schools can however afford the better coaches, which may lead to a distorted private school vs government school ratio.

ThomasH

Wrong. Rugby in SA is played in all schools. Private schools can however afford the better coaches, which may lead to a distorted private school vs government school ratio.

True.

dc69

yes but the majority of blacks in south africa play soccer.they hate the springok team becuase they feel it represents the opressing whites of SA.and so they have no desire to play rugby.they all support new zealand.private or public school.
so if you looked at the team playing on sat i would bet more than 80% went to private schools.and my point is still completely valid,is rugby in ireland played only by private schools?no

public schools play aswell.

but how many of the irish team went to private schools?i would say about 80%

yes the coaching is better in private schools and most blacks in SA dont go to private schools,so they dont get as good coaching,coupled with the fact that most of them dont even want to play rugby for aforementioned reasons,is the reason its mostly whites!

have you been to SA?becuase i have gone on a schools rugby trip there and im telling you that is the way the guys over their told it to me,i wont repeat what else they said about their black countrymen

Brian Capture

Jake White - ??

That's an unfortunate surname for a start.

Supercell

daveirl wrote: »

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Therein lies the problem.
SA unfortunately is headed towards the doldrums because the west's political and "popular" embarrassment will green light black apartheid and the country is just going to become another African banana republic.

It pains me to say that but honestly believe thats the way its headed. I think in another 10-20 years the west will view the ANC in a hugely different light to the rose tinted glasses the uninformed here do currently.

Back to rugby - even the Springbok will be no more after this world cup..its apparently going to be some flower..apparently the Springbok..an animal that walks the SA soil is considered to be too white tainted or something..so they are going for some flower..Honestly its so crazy you couldnt make this stuff up.

So enjoy the last great Bok team, its probably going to be the last world cup winning team for a long long long time from that country.

ThomasH

I was born and raised in SA so hopefully farmiliar with the country

so if you looked at the team playing on sat i would bet more than 80% went to private schools.

Actually John Smith, Juan Smith, BJ Botha, Francois Steyn, Butch James, Percy Montgomery, JP Pietersen, Bakkies Both, Bryan Habana, Wikus van Heerden, Victor Matfield, Danie Rossouw, CJ van der Linde, Schalk Burger, Fourie du Preez and Jaque Fourie all went to public schools.

yes but the majority of blacks in south africa play soccer.they hate the springok team becuase they feel it represents the opressing whites of SA.and so they have no desire to play rugby.they all support new zealand.

Where did you get this? Did you actually went and asked every black person in SA this question.:rolleyes:

and my point is still completely valid,is rugby in ireland played only by private schools?no
public schools play aswell.but how many of the irish team went to private schools?i would say about 80%

Don't confuse Ireland's culture where in the early days only people from blackrock who went to private schools played rugby and were better rugby players than players in public schools with SA's culture. Rugby is played with the same passion and pride you get in public and private schools and more than 90% of the existing boks players were in public schools.

yes the coaching is better in private schools and most blacks in SA dont go to private schools,so they dont get as good coaching,coupled with the fact that most of them dont even want to play rugby for aforementioned reasons,is the reason its mostly whites

You will be surprised since 1991 how many coloureds actually do go to private schools.

Stev_o

Id say that Aussies are kicking their heels that they wont be bossed in the scrum by the Boks for a few years

Supercell

Rugby looses with this, public private has no bearing.
The pest players should play, simple as that, its how all the other nations are.
If the best players are white or black, should make no bloody difference.

SA will not be fielding their best players after this world cup, and the world game looses out..and perhaps it's best that the proud Springboks go out winning before they are replaced by mediocrity and a new elbum .

toomevara

Stev_o wrote: »

Id say that Aussies are kicking their heels that they wont be bossed in the scrum by the Boks for a few years

Wouldn't bet on it, the Sisters of Mercy Big Girls Blouse second XV would give the wallabies pause for thought, hell even the Irish set piece might trouble them....

dc69

ThomasH wrote: »

I was born and raised in SA so hopefully farmiliar with the country

Actually John Smith, Juan Smith, BJ Botha, Francois Steyn, Butch James, Percy Montgomery, JP Pietersen, Bakkies Both, Bryan Habana, Wikus van Heerden, Victor Matfield, Danie Rossouw, CJ van der Linde, Schalk Burger, Fourie du Preez and Jaque Fourie all went to public schools.

Where did you get this? Did you actually went and asked every black person in SA this question.:rolleyes:


Don't confuse Ireland's culture where in the early days only people from blackrock who went to private schools played rugby and were better rugby players than players in public schools with SA's culture. Rugby is played with the same passion and pride you get in public and private schools and more than 90% of the existing boks players were in public schools.

You will be surprised since 1991 how many coloureds actually do go to private schools.

i accept you would know more than me,when i was over there staying in a guys house this is what he told me.it is also a well known fact that most blacks in SA hate the rugby team as it has not really changed since apartheid ended,has it?a south african was on newstalk last night saying it

can you name the players in the squad that did go to private schools(there must be a few) then,cause tbh i dont understand how you could know that all those players didnt?:)

Irish Wolf

Longfield wrote: »

Back to rugby - even the Springbok will be no more after this world cup..its apparently going to be some flower..apparently the Springbok..an animal that walks the SA soil is considered to be too white tainted or something..so they are going for some flower..Honestly its so crazy you couldnt make this stuff up.

QFT.

They did the same to the cricket team when they made them change the badge from a Springbok to a Protea...

It's sad to see.

mikeruurds

dc69 wrote: »

i accept you would know more than me,when i was over there staying in a guys house this is what he told me.it is also a well known fact that most blacks in SA hate the rugby team as it has not really changed since apartheid ended,has it?a south african was on newstalk last night saying it

can you name the players in the squad that did go to private schools(there must be a few) then,cause tbh i dont understand how you could know that all those players didnt?:)

The only blacks who hate the rugby team are the ones that aren't rugby fans and are still living in the past. There's just no pleasing some people. There will always be white people in SA no matter how certain bitter politicians try and erase any evidence of our existence. I wouldn't say that the majority of black people hate the boks. I'd actually estimate that it is a small minority of them. It's these guys who are not interested in transformation or reconciliation. They don't support Nelson's "rainbow nation" vision... they prefer the tyrannical Mugabe's plundering method. They are massive racists.

This Bhutana fellow just hates anything associated with white people. Contrary to his opinion, black people are not prevented from playing for the boks. In fact they're encouraged. He's just clueless as to what it takes to grow black rugby talent. It takes years. You can't just give a black kid a full rugby kit, a decent coach and expect to have a Francois Steyn after 2 years. Most of the guys in the SA team have been playing rugby since the age of 5 or 6. You have to possess a rare talent to play for SA. There are so many guys who play rugby in school who never get further than school rugby. I know this happens everywhere, but there are thousands of schools in SA where rugby is played, both private and public, some not so great and some are as good as elite academies (Affies, Paarl Gym, Grey College Bloem and PE). It's not the same as here in Ireland where it is played in private schools. In fact, some of the best rugby Schools in SA are public schools. First team school rugby is usually sponsored by corporations, so the public schools are not cash strapped and can afford to buy all the latest training gear for their players.

Transformation has to start now with millions of Rands needed to develop skills in under 10 black rugby so that the kids can be given the core skills from a young age. You can't just stick average club or provincial players into the SA team and expect them to produce the goods. Failure at that level can end careers more easily than it will make them.

I don't want to be paranoid, but I think that continued pressure from the politicians is going to dramatically change springbok rugby. The Springbok name and symbol will go soon to be replaced by a Protea or something else devoid of history and passion.

ThomasH

i accept you would know more than me,when i was over there staying in a guys house this is what he told me.it is also a well known fact that most blacks in SA hate the rugby team as it has not really changed since apartheid ended,has it?a south african was on newstalk last night saying it

can you name the players in the squad that did go to private schools(there must be a few) then,cause tbh i dont understand how you could know that all those players didnt?

See Mikeruurds answer.

You can look it up yourself regarding players that went to private schools.

The reason why I know is because the schools these players attented are very well known throughout SA. Also, each players profile is available to the public and it includes to what school they have attended. These well-know schools as Mikeruurds already mentioned Affies, Paarl Gym, Grey College Bloem and PE are all public schools and in the top 10 rugby schools in the country. I also used to play rugby against these schools.

There would also be a lot of wealthy parents involved in the schools so between sponsorships, parents donations, etc. they can afford to have the best of everything.

Here is a website with players profile:
http://www.whoswhosa.co.za/Pages/ListRugby.aspx

Jack Sheehan

I'm sorry but this is patently ridiculous, is the point of equality supposed to be that we don't see colour, not that 'Ok he opressed me for donkey years so now lets get our own back'.

Personally I think that no one choosing a rugby team should give a flying **** about colour and judge purely on merit, but hey I'm here in a cozy Dublin suburb, mabyr things are different in the SA asministration.

toomevara

Well if last night was 'the end of Bok rugby as we know it' it was quite a swansong. To be honest the Bokke did the best thing they could in response to the alleged impending 'abokalypse' by winning the competition.

Reckon the whole thing is being overstated anyway, don't think the Boks will be going anywhere soon....Just check out the scenes from Jo'burg on TV, total euphoria, black and white...it'll be a brave politician who meddles with that....