The end of Bok rugby as we know it is nigh

mikeruurds

Bhutana Khompela, an ANC politician in South Africa's ruling party, wants Jake White fired and wants the team to be 80% black, with the team being selected according to colour and not merit.

Here is an article from [url]www.rugby365.co.za:[/url]

Khompela: 'Why White must go'
Thursday 18th October 2007

Bhutana Khompela, the Chairperson of the Parliamentary Committee on Sport, believes that despite all Springbok coach Jake White's achievements in this year's World Cup, the sooner he relinquishes his job the better for South African rugby.

In an interview with Cape Talk DJ Aden Thomas on Thursday Khompela said that White had "invited trouble" by meddling in politics with his statements about the merits of the current team.

White, who in recent weeks has used sections of the South African media to gain publicity ahead of the release of his biography, made it clear that he is unlikely to continue as national coach after the World Cup - even if the Boks beat England in the World Cup Final in Paris on Saturday.

However, he has suggested that it is the underhand tactics of back-stabbing South African Rugby Union (SARU) officials that will force him out.

Some reports in the White media camp even suggested that Bulls coach Heyneke Meyer was promised the Springbok coaching job before the Boks left for the World Cup - claims denied by Jonathan Stones, managing director of SA Rugby (Pty) Ltd (the commercial arm of SARU).

Furthermore, Stones said SA Rugby was interested in retaining White within its structures.

However, the campaigning and publicity for White in the media - not to mention White's own public controversial statements on the coaching saga - have not gone unnoticed.

Khompela revealed that the ruling party, the African National Congress (ANC), would never support any bid White made for a second term as the coach of the national side.

"If he goes today, South African rugby will be better off," Khompela told Cape Talk's Aden Thomas.

Despite earlier this year threatening to withhold the passports of the players if the team's composition did not reflect the demographics of the country - in which 80 per cent of the population is black - Khompela said it is the administration and selectors (including White) that are to blame and not the players.

"You can't punish the players, you must punish those that are responsible for the composition of the team," he said.

He warned that if the leadership of rugby - including White - was full of racism and hated black people, they should be punished.

"I've been saying for a long time that because of the passionate hate that Jake White has; I think [his being removed as coach] is long overdue - and I don't mince my words," he said, without clarifying who and what it is that White actually hates.

"The ANC will never support Jake White if he bids for the second term - even if they propose that his contract be renewed on the basis of his being liked by the rugby fraternity and the argument that we can't micro manage rugby," he added.

"We might accept their decision but deep down we will definitely not support Jake White."

Khompela went on to say that he did not view White as the coach who had put the Springboks in the World Cup Final, but that he saw him as a divisive force in the national side, someone who pushed people "poles apart from each other".

He went on to accuse White of inviting trouble by making political statements.

"Look at the statement that he is making around the issue of the merit and all that, statements that a coach should not be making.

"He rise at the political level and therefore I must engage him at the political level," Khompela said about White political statements.

"I think if I was him I would have been a humble coach and leave the issues of the race to those that are dealing with it in politics, because it is a political matter.

"Now if Jake puts it there, he is saying to me as the ANC, 'Here I am challenging you on the question of the mandate of the code and the race'."

The outburst followed comments from White that he did not racially discriminate in his selections, but found it difficult as a coach to be forced to fill quota requirements.

"South Africa is the only country where if a winger is injured, you are obliged to change the prop [should the injured player be black or coloured]," White told journalists in France.

"They [the players] know me and know that I never want to be strong-armed into playing a guy because of the colour of his skin. That is a dreadful thing to do to a player. With me it's a case of if you deserve to be in the starting XV or not and the coloured players are aware of that."

Khompela said that such comments from the Springbok coach were unwarranted.

Khompela added that transformation in rugby was a non negotiable and that the administrators and those elected to represent rugby in the country had not tapped into the talent pool, and did not select sides that reflect the potential of South Africa's 80 per cent black population.

Enjoy seeing a powerful Bok rugby team for the last time. Politicians in SA want change to win political points even though the average black rugby fan wants the SA team to win irrespective of race. As a South African I hope that the boys bring this cup home as they won't be a force for very much longer.

Jake White has been a great coach, having to deal with this on a daily basis. It breaks my heart to see politicians who know nothing about rugby ripping the team apart.

A sad Bok fan.

Endurance Man

This is not going to do the nation of SA one bit of good.

smashey

Reverse apartheid.

uberwolf

smashey wrote: »

Reverse apartheid.

it's simply apartheid.

ThomasH

"If he goes today, South African rugby will be better off," Khompela told Cape Talk's Aden Thomas.

Be better off or just that you idiots in the government get your way. Just like the soccer and look how great they are doing...could not even make the previous WC and only making the next one because SA is hosting it.

He warned that if the leadership of rugby - including White - was full of racism and hated black people, they should be punished.

So are you and all of your idiotic administration in the government.

Khompela went on to say that he did not view White as the coach who had put the Springboks in the World Cup Final, but that he saw him as a divisive force in the national side, someone who pushed people "poles apart from each other".

LOL, oh my goodness what a muppet statement. :rolleyes:

"I think if I was him I would have been a humble coach and leave the issues of the race to those that are dealing with it in politics, because it is a political matter.

You and your monkey administration pushed the political issues not Jake, all he wanted to do was to coach the national rugby team and select the best players.

"They [the players] know me and know that I never want to be strong-armed into playing a guy because of the colour of his skin. That is a dreadful thing to do to a player. With me it's a case of if you deserve to be in the starting XV or not and the coloured players are aware of that."

Very true and it is usually the coloured guys that suffer which is not fair.

HaroldGodwinson

It's ridiculous, South Africa is run by idiots. Can anyone tell me any other country in the world which would go for such bull**** as this?
I'm English, our football team on wednesday had 50% of the outfield players who were black. Nobody over here of sane mind would dream of saying we've got to have a team which is 90% white to reflect the demographic. From what I can see South Africa is in **** state, it's not surprising when you've got Mbeki who is best mates with Mugabe.

smashey

uberwolf wrote: »

it's simply apartheid.

Agreed. I was just pointing out it was like the opposite way of working from what they had for years.

Marshy

Inevitable but tragic nonetheless.

HaroldGodwinson

If some black people in South Africa want to be so blatantly racist, why don't the whites tell them to **** off and play a black mans sport. The only reason rugby is played in South Africa is because it was taken over their by whites.

cavedave

OK devils advocate

Are picks for the irish teams based on province and not soley merit? Particularly at under adult age levels?

Are picks for Irish teams based on where you play and not merit?

Do we accept that a coach has the right to drop a player who has merit but is divisive? Say one who played in France for years but was not liked by the Irish setup.

How much right does a coach have to pick a team that will eventually result in a better team rather then the best players currently playing? As in can a coach pick a worse 20 year old then a 34 year old for future reasons ok? If so is picking a team now because it will help south africa in 15 years that odd?

cavedave

if some black people in South Africa want to be so blatantly racist, why don't the whites tell them to **** off and play a black

*Comment deleted as a personal insult is inappropriate

smashey

cavedave wrote: »

personal insults on this forum result in a ban. You barely qualify for personhood so...

Personal?

toomevara

More light, less heat might be in order here fellas...

cavedave

Personal?

From the rules

Personal abuse, racism etc. will lead to bannings, there is no need for it, so don’t do it.

zAbbo

Getting a bit excited aren't you cavedave ?

Are you hankering for the SARU to be banned from boards ?

Naos

cavedave wrote: »

personal insults on this forum result in a ban. You barely qualify for personhood so i feel this rule should be revoked for responses for this comment.

Cavedave, what you said about Harold not qualifying for personhood, whatever that is, is personal.

HaroldGodwinson wrote: »

If some black people in South Africa want to be so blatantly racist, why don't the whites tell them to **** off and play a black mans sport. The only reason rugby is played in South Africa is because it was taken over their by whites.

This is not personal.

OT: This is going to be awful for SA and is blatent racisim. Defeats the point of equality, that all men should be viewed as equal thus removing any the "colour factor".

cavedave

Getting a bit excited aren't you cavedave ?

Are you hankering for the SARU to be banned from boards ?

Yes I am getting excited about the phrase "**** off and play a black mans sport."

I am not attempting to get anyone banned.

This is not personal.

Is "**** off and play a black mans sport." racist?

zAbbo

Yes, if you take it out of context but thats being pedantic...

The report post is there for a reason, use it.

There was an element of truth in what yer man said, ultimately it's a sorry state for the saffies, shame really, I love watching their Currie Cup & S14 teams.

Erin Go Brath

HaroldGodwinson wrote: »

If some black people in South Africa want to be so blatantly racist, why don't the whites tell them to **** off and play a black mans sport. The only reason rugby is played in South Africa is because it was taken over their by whites.

What a pathetic thing to say. :rolleyes:

The black man has been crapped on for years by white supremacists in SA. Now they're getting their revenge. It's a pity rugby may suffer, but what goes around comes around!

zAbbo

two wrongs don't make a right....

Oilrig

EGB, how many African countries have you lived & worked in? ie how well do you know the reality of that continent?

Your statement reminds me of the attitude I had, as a student during the Dunnes strike... "Armoured cars and tanks and Dunnes" I still have the poster of a Saffer guarding a fence with an R4.

Since then I've had the good fortune to see a lot of Africa, on the ground, as an insider for over a decade.

Its not as simple as Black and White...

Show me a non corrupt, competent African government and I'll show you a set of teeth for a hen

and don't get me going on Zim...:mad:

The OP is correct in predicting the end of Bok rugby as we know it, Jake White has endured an horrific time over the past few months due to political pressures. Madiba (Mandela) and all he stood for would not have allowed this to happen, it is the power and money hungry minions within the ANC that are destroying South Africa's future. If you want an idea of what's ahead Google Jacob Zuma... widely tipped as the next president. Read his history... I rest my case.

Hagar

I saw SA play Fiji last week, a great team but even my 13 year old son remarked at the number of white folk on the team. The innocence of youth.

Naos

Clearly you are all missing Harold Godwins point, "Blatantly racist" being the main words in the sentence.

And Cavedave, look up the meaning of "Personal Abuse".

Erin Go Brath

Oilrig wrote: »

EGB, how many African countries have you lived & worked in? ie how well do you know the reality of that continent?

Does Blanchardstown count as an African country these days?

I'm not saying I'm in favour of this reverse apartheid thing. I'm against it. What I am saying is that it is understandable that after years of oppression, the black man will harbour serious grudges against the people who enforced it.

It's unfortunate that this grudge manifests itself in the shape of bringing a quota of blacks on the rugby team. As I say though, what goes around comes around!

Oilrig

EGB, you're right. You've identified revenge as the motivation for the imposed quota as opposed to any rational criteria.

As for Blanch... no comment

is_that_so

My understanding is that not many of the "80%" actually play rugby and would be more inclined to play soccer as the main sport. IMO this whole thing has tinges of Mugabe about it. Sure you want your team to be representative of the country but you also want to be proud of its achievements. I don't believe the principle is necessarily bad i.e. field a team that represents demographics but I would have thought a plan like this would be something that might make sense over 20 years. Get structures in place, find that talent, nurse and coach it.
Quotas in anything rarely do anything IMO, except pretend that something is being done. I think it's a pity for rugby , SA and the poor unfortunates who end getting picked on the "new" team.

Sangre

Jesus, it would be like we if had to play a certain percentage of Catholics/Protestants or Nordies/Republicans i.e. retarded.

Hagar

Don't we have to have a Nordie on the Team?

ThomasH

What a pathetic thing to say.
The black man has been crapped on for years by white supremacists in SA. Now they're getting their revenge. It's a pity rugby may suffer, but what goes around comes around!

TBH, most white folks these days would agree that "apartheid" was wrong. It was a culture where people were brought up to believe white is white and black is black but that has all changed now and people will think twice before saying they don't like blacks. Of course you still do get people who believe in this but that is a very small percentage. Still, two wrongs don't make a right. If they want more black players in the boks team start on the school level and put proper structures in place to develop these players.

I saw SA play Fiji last week, a great team but even my 13 year old son remarked at the number of white folk on the team. The innocence of youth.

That has nothing to do with racism tbh, it's purely as one poster said the main sport for white people and they have all been chosen on merits.

My understanding is that not many of the "80%" actually play rugby and would be more inclined to play soccer as the main sport. IMO this whole thing has tinges of Mugabe about it. Sure you want your team to be representative of the country but you also want to be proud of its achievements. I don't believe the principle is necessarily bad i.e. field a team that represents demographics but I would have thought a plan like this would be something that might make sense over 20 years. Get structures in place, find that talent, nurse and coach it.
Quotas in anything rarely do anything IMO, except pretend that something is being done. I think it's a pity for rugby , SA and the poor unfortunates who end getting picked on the "new" team.

Spot on.

ThomasH

15 Years ago our school rugby team u/16 played against a local black neighbourhood school. We hammered them (96-0) as most of the guys in our team started playing rugby since they were 6. Our coach spoke to their coach after the game and he said most of his players (15 and 16 years old) only started playing 1-2 years ago. They played like 6 years old, which proves that they still had a lot of catch up to do.

Fast forward to today and take a look at the SA Cravenweek (Doctor Danie Craven tournament for SA provinces) and you will see that a lot of good and quality coloured players play for their respective provinces. There is a lot of skill, pace and brains amongst these players. But to start throwing these youngsters in the national team could end their careers at an early stage. Introduce them slowly to club, currie cup and S14 rugby and from there take it to the national side. These developments and experience takes time and I reckon within 10 years time SA will have a huge pool of coloured players ready for national selection and no one will have an issue if there is 8-10 Bryan Habana's in the team

Hagar

Hagar wrote: »

I saw SA play Fiji last week, a great team but even my 13 year old son remarked at the number of white folk on the team. The innocence of youth.

To be fair...how many black players can u think of who are glaring omissions from that team?

cavedave

Originally Posted by Hagar View Post
I saw SA play Fiji last week, a great team but even my 13 year old son remarked at the number of white folk on the team. The innocence of youth.

Did he ask about why there was so few Indo-Fijians on the Fijian team? Or in the Fijian government for that matter.

marco_polo

ThomasH wrote: »

15 Years ago our school rugby team u/16 played against a local black neighbourhood school. We hammered them (96-0) as most of the guys in our team started playing rugby since they were 6. Our coach spoke to their coach after the game and he said most of his players (15 and 16 years old) only started playing 1-2 years ago. They played like 6 years old, which proves that they still had a lot of catch up to do.

Fast forward to today and take a look at the SA Cravenweek (Doctor Danie Craven tournament for SA provinces) and you will see that a lot of good and quality coloured players play for their respective provinces. There is a lot of skill, pace and brains amongst these players. But to start throwing these youngsters in the national team could end their careers at an early stage. Introduce them slowly to club, currie cup and S14 rugby and from there take it to the national side. These developments and experience takes time and I reckon within 10 years time SA will have a huge pool of coloured players ready for national selection and no one will have an issue if there is 8-10 Bryan Habana's in the team

Many a good young player has been massively set back by being introduced to international action too soon. If these young black players are played against the likes of the AB before they are ready it could really set their careers back.

One example I can think of is Matthew Tait who had a torrid time as an 18 year old debutant against Wales in 2005 and has only recently restablished himself in the England side. Tommy Bowe is another good example of throwing someone in to test rugby too soon.

ThomasH

Many a good young player has been massively set back by being introduced to international action too soon. If these young black players are played against the likes of the AB before they are ready it could really set their careers back.

One example I can think of is Matthew Tait who had a torrid time as an 18 year old debutant against Wales in 2005 and has only recently restablished himself in the England side. Tommy Bowe is another good example of throwing someone in to test rugby too soon.

Very True.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

cavedave

You're right, having a policy of choosing players playing in Ireland ahead of those playing abroad like Ireland or New Zealand do is clearly exactly the same as choosing people based on the colour of their skin.

I never said that.
I did imply Irish rugby may not be a meritocracy.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

cavedave

And you understand that not being a meritocracy based on factors other than race or sexual orientation, factors that may impact your rugby playing ability is very very very different situation?

I am talking about factors that do not come into your rugby playing ability, Hence meritocracy.

Picking (or not) a player based on race or sexual orientation are beyond the pale.

Where do you draw the line on where you can pick a player not based on their ability?

Based on actions of your father (As is alleged to have occured recently in SA)?
Based on what country you were born in? the province you were born in? on what you have previously said to the media? on criminal convictions?

What is an acceptable reason not to pick a better player (factors that do not come into your rugby playing ability)?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

cavedave

And that's what they are doing/want to do, so where's the argument?

I would hope there is not argument about racism being wrong. So if the only argument allowed is about racism this thread would be one post long.

What lines other people draw in the sand for selection decisions is immaterial.

In the discussion of steroid use discussion of creatine and growth hormone were also allowed. These were other substances that people took to improve performance and so were on topic.

In a discussion of racism other things people do to avoid a meritocracy should also be open to discussion. Racism, Homophobia and many more bad things come from the same human ability to lie to ourselves to make us feel we are better then other people for arbitrary non merit reasons. Unless you discuss this human ability (and its place in rugby) you will only move the prejudice onto something else rather then attack its root cause.

bugler

I hope the rest of World Rugby opposes this vehemently. It will do no one any good in rugby terms.

daveirl

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dc69

when every major international country put sa under huge presure to basically get rid of apartied or else,they did,but they knew what would happen and thats why they were reluctant.
now that the whites in SA are getting murdered like flies

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=23871

and the country has gone to absolute ****e,the health minister claims lemon juice cures aids lol and a reverse apartied has taken place,its an absolute disgrace that these countrys that pushed them to get rid of apartied dont help them.

Pplitics and sport should be aired in the same sentence but sadly thats the way it has to be

Its sad that a player gets chosen becuase of his skin colour,to me thats blatant racism.in SA rugby like in Ireland is played by majority private schools and that is why there are not many blacks,nothing to do with colour,they are not going to private schools and are not at the same level,its a simple fact.

I was also reading that they dont count habana or pieterson as black,they are "mixed race" and they are not safe from these black quotas either,i find that laughable.Habana deserves to be on that team becuase he is a good player,but the history books will say it was because he is black.Its doing him and pieterson a diservice also!I know that last statement is a bit contradicting but thats how it will be written:(

Hamo

RWC people, stick with the debate content regarding Rugby surely...

dc69

Hamo wrote: »

RWC people, stick with the debate content regarding Rugby surely...

well the politics in that country have a huge amount to do with their rugby,so it is valid imo

gosplan

None of this has actually happened yet and to be honest beating England on Saturday will go a long way towards ensuring that it doesn't happen.

Historically, it's easy to see the reasons why things like this would be suggested but any action taken on it would be swiftly reversed bfolllowing a massive dip in competitiveness.

To whoever it was that suggested there are white and black mans sports - get a grip.

T-Maxx

dc69 wrote: »

In SA rugby like in Ireland is played by majority private schools and that is why there are not many blacks,nothing to do with colour,they are not going to private schools and are not at the same level,its a simple fact.

Wrong. Rugby in SA is played in all schools. Private schools can however afford the better coaches, which may lead to a distorted private school vs government school ratio.

ThomasH

Wrong. Rugby in SA is played in all schools. Private schools can however afford the better coaches, which may lead to a distorted private school vs government school ratio.

True.

dc69

yes but the majority of blacks in south africa play soccer.they hate the springok team becuase they feel it represents the opressing whites of SA.and so they have no desire to play rugby.they all support new zealand.private or public school.
so if you looked at the team playing on sat i would bet more than 80% went to private schools.and my point is still completely valid,is rugby in ireland played only by private schools?no

public schools play aswell.

but how many of the irish team went to private schools?i would say about 80%

yes the coaching is better in private schools and most blacks in SA dont go to private schools,so they dont get as good coaching,coupled with the fact that most of them dont even want to play rugby for aforementioned reasons,is the reason its mostly whites!

have you been to SA?becuase i have gone on a schools rugby trip there and im telling you that is the way the guys over their told it to me,i wont repeat what else they said about their black countrymen

Brian Capture

Jake White - ??

That's an unfortunate surname for a start.

Supercell

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Therein lies the problem.
SA unfortunately is headed towards the doldrums because the west's political and "popular" embarrassment will green light black apartheid and the country is just going to become another African banana republic.

It pains me to say that but honestly believe thats the way its headed. I think in another 10-20 years the west will view the ANC in a hugely different light to the rose tinted glasses the uninformed here do currently.

Back to rugby - even the Springbok will be no more after this world cup..its apparently going to be some flower..apparently the Springbok..an animal that walks the SA soil is considered to be too white tainted or something..so they are going for some flower..Honestly its so crazy you couldnt make this stuff up.

So enjoy the last great Bok team, its probably going to be the last world cup winning team for a long long long time from that country.