Dublin Bus vs Trinity College

Reku

Trinity College

smccarrick wrote: »

Curiously- the Provost of Trinity, along with the heads of the other universities all received salary packages exceeding those of the Taoiseach/senior government ministers (when you factor in rent free accommodation on Grafton Street, those Jack B Yeats paintings and the butler- the Provost of Trinity's remuneration package approaches 700k per annum.......)

Is this value for money?

This is something I think should be fixed, I mean what are they doing that makes them deserve THAT much for an annual salary?

Terry

Trinity College

Thirdfox wrote: »

Trinity Access Programme - www.tcd.ie/Trinity_Access/

Driver 8:
Believe me - the Leaving Cert is not about learning by rote (you want to see real rote learning try China).

In fact I don't think students learn enough things off by heart - grammar, equations etc. and instead relying on calculators, log books...

I could go across the road and get the 11.45 66A into the city centre.
I doubt I would then be allowed to just walk into Trinity and start a course.

Dublin bus is readily available to anyone in the greater Dublin area.
Trinity college is not.

Unshelved

Curiously- the Provost of Trinity, along with the heads of the other universities all received salary packages exceeding those of the Taoiseach/senior government ministers (when you factor in rent free accommodation on Grafton Street, those Jack B Yeats paintings and the butler- the Provost of Trinity's remuneration package approaches 700k per annum.......)

The paintings are hardly his to take home after his term is up. They're as much his as the paintings in the National Gallery are mine.

Central government funding of the 7 universities reached €1.4 billion in 2004- of which Trinity’s cut was €126.7m, with UCC (which has a little over 31% more students) receiving €121.558m and DCU (with 18% less students than TCD) a comparatively paltry €51.6m.

Overheads are different in different institutions. For example, the Library in Trinity is the only one on this island with UK copyright, so it is far, far more expensive to run and staff than any other Library in the country. That's just an example - but to compare the two is back to your analogy of an apple or phone credit.

JIZZLORD

Atari Jaguar

why is this thread just about trinity, ffs, all our universities and it's deserver more money than they're currently getting, and where can this money come from? Research. Being dependent on the state is an outdated view for colleges. Competitive research funding is the way forward.

I'm guessing the op is a trinner, i'm not, i'm in nuig. But i dont see why this should be solely a trinity needs money more than everyone else.

NADA

I'm in trinity. It's the most over rated place in this country. It's just like any other University except older. And I second the point about trinity not caring about it's students! It's more interested in tourists and postgrads to be honest!

Voipjunkie

Trinity College

Ibid wrote: »

I can read, thanks. You seem not to have read my comment about derailing the thread, though.


From The Competition Authority


Dublin Bus refers to all of their services as community ventures. The European Commission's definition of a community venture is one which would not be provided by the private sector, i.e. unprofitable. So either Dublin Bus are lying about all of their routes being community ventures (which has serious implications about the subsidies they receive) or none of their routes are profitable. If none of their routes are profitable, then aside from serious questions about their efficiency, they are being subsidised on each route. This does not mean they make money. It means the government are willing to subsidise these routes. Which is the definition of a grant. Which is what this thread is about.

And well done on completely pissing over this thread by mentioning the figure of €69.8m - the subsidy Dublin Bus received from the State in their latest accounts. Their grant exceeded the deficit and there was a positive residual. If you receive a grant of €69m and have a surplus of €4m, I can't see how you can claim to be making money and not laugh your face off.

I suggest you ask one of your lecturers at TCD to explain the concept of a PSO payment it is not a grant it is a PUBLIC SERVICE OBLIGATION payment.

Dublin bus the same as any other company private or semi state is entitled to be compensated for providing an obligatory public service.

And trying to count the payment for carrying passengers with free social welfare passes as a grant is ridiculous particularly because that payment is nowhere near the actual cost of providing the free travel scheme.
Is the payment to Eircom or BT for the Free phones scheme a Government grant.




honestly talk about clutching at straws.

An Citeog

Trinity College

farohar wrote: »

3. Dublin bus doesn't discriminate against people in order to restrict access.

Dublin Bus actually actively practices price discrimination by applying different fares to different socio-economic groups.

Trinity College is an important educational institution in Ireland but I don't see it as more deserving of state funding than any of our other third level institutions. It doesn't actually provide any service that isn't readily available in UCD, DCU or DIT.

Dublin Bus, on the other hand, is the sole provider of a vital service in the countries capital and runs at a loss. State intervention is needed to keep this service operational.

Tigger

Atari Jaguar

An Citeog wrote: »

Dublin Bus actually actively practices price discrimination by applying different fares to different socio-economic groups.

Snip

.

whast art tho jabbering of

seriously how so?

The_Conductor

Trinity College

An Citeog wrote: »

Trinity College is an important educational institution in Ireland but I don't see it as more deserving of state funding than any of our other third level institutions. It doesn't actually provide any service that isn't readily available in UCD, DCU or DIT.

Subvention on a per student basis is over twice as high in TCD as in the NUI colleges. So- we do actively discriminate in favour of Trinity. Why? The original argument was to preserve the protestant ethos of Trinity (the NUI colleges were presumed to have a "Catholic" ethos), but that argument can hardly hold in today's world. UCD and TCD were very almost merged in the early 1960's- you know it might not have been a bad idea if it had happened.

Ps- Can you still buy your Masters in TCD?

An Citeog

Trinity College

rbd wrote: »

whast art tho jabbering of

seriously how so?

Children's fare, adult's fare and no charge for OAPs.

http://www.answers.com/topic/price-discrimination?cat=biz-fin

smccarrick wrote:

Subvention on a per student basis is over twice as high in TCD as in the NUI colleges. So- we do actively discriminate in favour of Trinity. Why? The original argument was to preserve the protestant ethos of Trinity (the NUI colleges were presumed to have a "Catholic" ethos), but that argument can hardly hold in today's world. UCD and TCD were very almost merged in the early 1960's- you know it might not have been a bad idea if it had happened.

That's what i said, you just expanded on it!

smccarrick wrote:

Ps- Can you still buy your Masters in TCD?

I don't know if that was directed at me but you did quote my post. I wouldn't have a clue, I'm actually a DCU student (well, kind of)!

Setun

Binomate wrote:

I know a good few people in Trinity, and trust me, they are far from our greatest minds.

+1

A few bavs at the pav does not necessarily constitute genius :rolleyes:

Tigger

Atari Jaguar

An Citeog wrote: »

Children's fare, adult's fare and no charge for OAPs.

Thats not different socio-economic groups thats different age-groups

since you like using definations:

Definition:
UK method of classifying individuals used by the Registrar General in the analysis of Census of Population material, based entirely on information about the job of the person classified.

and before you stsrt streching the defination please tell me what is the issue of using age as a method for pricing
kids 1/2 price seems fare (sic) as they can't earn
adults full price as they are adults
and then OAPs free when the busses aren't full as sure thery're old and stuff :rolleyes:

An Citeog

Trinity College

rbd wrote: »

Thats not different socio-economic groups thats different age-groups

Yeah, my bad. In my defence, I'm not up very long!

rbd wrote:

and before you stsrt streching the defination please tell me what is the issue of using age as a method for pricing
kids 1/2 price seems fare (sic) as they can't earn
adults full price as they are adults
and then OAPs free when the busses aren't full as sure thery're old and stuff :rolleyes:

I never claimed to take any issue with it. I was merely responding to your point about Trinity restricting access. Trinity restricts access to entrants in the same way as every other third level institution in the state so it's not exactly a fair point to make.

Tigger

Atari Jaguar

An Citeog wrote: »

Yeah, my bad. In my defence, I'm not up very long!



I never claimed to take any issue with it. I was merely responding to your point about Trinity restricting access. Trinity restricts access to entrants in the same way as every other third level institution in the state so it's not exactly a fair point to make.

i didn't but thats grand

i just was csurprised that dub bus was getting away with a wierd un-equallity scheme like the social and fás etc

Corruptedmorals

Afaik, you can only buy your Masters in Trinity if you get First Class Honours in your degree, and apparently it can be from either Trinity, Oxford or Cambridge. Or is it an M.Phil? And I'm pretty sure it's €543.

Tigger

Atari Jaguar

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Afaik, you can only buy your Masters in Trinity if you get First Class Honours in your degree, and apparently it can be from either Trinity, Oxford or Cambridge. Or is it an M.Phil? And I'm pretty sure it's €543.

thats crazy

The_Conductor

Trinity College

rbd wrote: »

thats crazy

It may be crazy- but thats why an NUI masters is always far more valuable to an employer- there is always a question mark over whether a Trinity one was simply bought. Its been that way for longer than I can remember. The NUI colleges had a similar scheme when entering college, where you could pay IR£200 to buy your Matriculation exams if you had gotten above a certain grade in your leaving cert (they did away with it in 1995). Eventually they stopped holding the exam at all- simply charged the IR£200, then they stopped and absorbed the IR£200 into the annual fees.

Its just a scheme for raising money- but it does devalue the qualification for those who go to a lot of trouble to earn it in what would be presumed the normal manner.

Time Magazine

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Afaik, you can only buy your Masters in Trinity if you get First Class Honours in your degree, and apparently it can be from either Trinity, Oxford or Cambridge. Or is it an M.Phil? And I'm pretty sure it's €543.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

If you have reached the standing of bachelor (undergraduate degree) and have been of good standing for at least three years since the time of conferral, you may proceed to receive your MA. Any of these "bought" degrees are MA (all "earned" ones are M.Sc/M.Phil/M.Litt etc.) and are easily discernible, so you're wrong in your assertion that there is any doubt about Trinity postgraduate qualifications, smccarrick. The reason for the progression is very simple. When you register as an undergraduate in Trinity you're essentially registering for a four-year degree, what was once considered a masters' level. You study for four years and get a masters. Just like in the NUI you can study for three, do one year postgrad and get a masters. It's not "buying a masters", nor is it a money making scheme as the €500 is the commencement fee (it's about €300 for undergraduate commencements). Anyone who says such doesn't understand its purpose - internal College bureaucracy. Those who throw the arms up in the air are doing just that.

And no, you can't receive it from either of the Oxbridge universities. They're from the University of Dublin.

Unshelved

It seems illogical doesn't it? Trinity's point is - I think - that they (along with Oxford, Cambridge and some other universities) offer a four-year arts degree, where technically you can claim your degree at the end of the third year, but you stay on for an extra year, specialise in one subject and write a dissertation. That therefore qualifies you for the additional Master's degree - after you've paid your money. It's the equivalent of doing a taught Master's degree in an NUI college, following a three-year arts degree cycle. I'm not sure whether this holds true for other TCD degrees.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, that's just how things have evolved. In reality not that many students opt for buying the Master's degree.

Trinity do offer Master's degrees in Arts subjects but they're called M.Litt degrees instead.

Edit:
And I see that Ibid has beaten me to the punch, with an explaination of the same thing!

The_Conductor

Trinity College

Ibid wrote: »

Just like in the NUI you can study for three, do one year postgrad and get a masters.

Thats only the case with arts degrees in the NUI. All science/engineering/med/vet/architecture/ag etc degrees are 3 years for a basic degree, 4 years for an honours degree, and a further 2 years for a masters (there are some taught masters that are 1 year, but not many). I had to write a dissertation for my B.Sc. which I then had to defend to a panel of external experts. Thats for my undergrad degree- not a masters.

There is a question mark over some qualifications- I have been involved in recruitment of a number of staff and have had to try to determine where they were on the NQAI scale, as saying you have a degree or a masters in blah now means virtually nothing.

Unshelved

Thats only the case with arts degrees in the NUI. All science/engineering/med/vet/architecture/ag etc degrees are 3 years for a basic degree, 4 years for an honours degree, and a further 2 years for a masters (there are some taught masters that are 1 year, but not many). I had to write a dissertation for my B.Sc. which I then had to defend to a panel of external experts.

Only Arts graduates can purchase the Trinity MA afaik - so your point about the science/engineering sector is invalid.

Lots of people, including myself, have 1-year taught master's degrees, which are the rough equivalent of the final year undergraduate arts year in TCD, where a dissertation has to be submitted.

Time Magazine

smccarrick wrote: »

Thats only the case with arts degrees in the NUI. All science/engineering/med/vet/architecture/ag etc degrees are 3 years for a basic degree, 4 years for an honours degree, and a further 2 years for a masters (there are some taught masters that are 1 year, but not many). I had to write a dissertation for my B.Sc. which I then had to defend to a panel of external experts. Thats for my undergrad degree- not a masters.

There is a question mark over some qualifications- I have been involved in recruitment of a number of staff and have had to try to determine where they were on the NQAI scale, as saying you have a degree or a masters in blah now means virtually nothing.

It's not that difficult. If it's an MA from the University of Dublin, four years of undergraduate study were obtained from it. If it's an M* (where *!="A" ), there's additional study. Also, if someone has opted to take their masters, they should remove the bachelors from their name.

I'm a fourth year. Having passed my exams last June, I could have taken my BA and called it quits. Now I'll continue into my fourth year to continue ultimately to the MA in four years' time. I'll then be "Ibid M.A. (Dubl.)" Convoluted way to do it, but nothing sinister about it. It would be wrong of me to claim I'm "Ibid B.A. (Dubl.), M.A. (Dubl.)" If someone applying for a job applied that way, they're taking advantage of a rule that's not sinister and I'm not claiming that's right in anyway.

Tigger

Atari Jaguar

Ibid wrote: »

It's not that difficult. If it's an MA from the University of Dublin, four years of undergraduate study were obtained from it. If it's an M* (where *!="A" ), there's additional study. Also, if someone has opted to take their masters, they should remove the bachelors from their name.

I'm a fourth year. Having passed my exams last June, I could have taken my BA and called it quits. Now I'll continue into my fourth year to continue ultimately to the MA in four years' time. I'll then be "Ibid M.A. (Dubl.)" Convoluted way to do it, but nothing sinister about it. It would be wrong of me to claim I'm "Ibid B.A. (Dubl.), M.A. (Dubl.)" If someone applying for a job applied that way, they're taking advantage of a rule that's not sinister and I'm not claiming that's right in anyway.

i'm completely lost

stepbar

Trinity College

What's your view Ibid?

Pitseleh

Easy.

Trinity - because I get in to it on the luas

Time Magazine

stepbar wrote: »

What's your view Ibid?

Abolish free fees.

Terry

Trinity College

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Also, would you prefer the great unwashed not be given the chance to recieve a college education?

Time Magazine

No, I'm part of the great unwashed. Not as unwashed as someone from the other side of Leixlip, but unwashed nonetheless.

People will come on here crying their eyes out about the opportunities of the great unwashed wah wah wah while also bemoaning the lack of funding for education, wah wah wah. It's simple. Pick a number, say €40,000. Anyone whose parents earn more than that a year pay fees*. This frees up money the government are paying - I know people whose parents earn €100,000 a year but the government are paying their fees. This money can then be spent on not only paying the fees of the great unwashed but providing adequate grants for those to who need them. (Being unwashed and having first-hand experience of the grant system, it's wholly inadequate. The mod of the mygrant.ie forum will tell you that he knows almost nobody on the grant who doesn't have a part-time job out of necessity.)

*Or something slightly more complicated, like those on >€30,000 pay 50% fees, >€40,000 pay 75% etc.

RuggieBear

I'd abolish the present system which basically means the middle class get free college when they would have paid for it anyway and introduce a proper grants system for those who can't afford 3rd level education

My parents saved for my college education for years and then the year before my Leaving the Gov abolished the fees...so my parents used my "college money" to buy a Merc instead.

Of course the other side to my argument is that some parents refuse to pay for their kids third level education leaving the kids in financial limbo wrt to the college fees

Dub13

Trinity College

RuggieBear wrote: »

My parents saved for my college education for years and then the year before my Leaving the Gov abolished the fees...so my parents used my "college money" to buy a Merc instead.

I like their style....:)