Dublin Bus vs Trinity College

Time Magazine

Without knowing anything about how much, which do you think deserves a bigger state grant?

One provides an essential social and economic service carrying half a million people around the capital each day. The other trains 15,000 of our greatest minds and has produced graduates like Wolfe Tone, Bram Stoker, Mary Robinson, Samuel Beckett, Douglas Hyde, Oscar Wilde, Jonathan Swift and Ernest Walton. Both have pretty big problems too.

So I went looking to see just how much money each of these bodies get. I was surprised how large the grants were (I'll say exactly how much later). One grant is a good bit bigger than the other.

Who do you think gets the most?

Outer Bongolia

Trinity College

Bet Trinity gets more

prendy

id say deffo trinity coz i read somewhere that dublin bus is the only part of CIE that makes money..the rest are subsidised.

patrickc

Trinity College

Dublin bus does, Trinity gets more i'm sure

Time Magazine

prendy wrote: »

i read somewhere that dublin bus is the only part of CIE that makes money

Trust me, it doesn't make money.

baztard

Trinity defo gets more, as Dublin Bus (or CIE) can only get limited grants, due to competition laws.

Funny how nearly all the famous graduates of Trinity are all from about 50 - 100 years ago.

Last I heard Dublin Bus makes a small profit, Bus Eireann makes a smaller loss and Iarnród Éireann makes a huge loss.

humanji

Ibid wrote:

The other trains 15,000 of our greatest minds and has produced graduates like Wolfe Tone, Bram Stoker, Mary Robinson, Samuel Beckett, Douglas Hyde, Oscar Wilde, Jonathan Swift and Ernest Walton.

Not many great minds coming from there now a days, though I'd say Trinity gets more money. When Dublin Bus apply for a grant they just get a letter back saying "We're tired of trying."

baztard

Ibid wrote: »

Without knowing anything about how much, which do you think deserves a bigger state grant?

One provides an essential social and economic service carrying half a million people around the capital each day. The other trains 15,000 of our greatest minds and has produced graduates like Wolfe Tone, Bram Stoker, Mary Robinson, Samuel Beckett, Douglas Hyde, Oscar Wilde, Jonathan Swift and Ernest Walton. Both have pretty big problems too.

So I went looking to see just how much money each of these bodies get. I was surprised how large the grants were (I'll say exactly how much later). One grant is a good bit bigger than the other.

Who do you think gets the most?

Wheres the 'Both of them need a feck load of money' option?

Voipjunkie

Trinity College

Ibid wrote: »

Trust me, it doesn't make money.

Yes it does the subvention is to provide for social services that the State wants to provide if it was not paid to DB it would have to be paid to someone else

Time Magazine

Voipjunkie, Dublin Bus receives a large grant from the State. Simply saying "it would be spent on other things anyway" does not mean Dublin Bus is profitable. Let's not derail the thread.

Why do people think DB deserve more?

Voipjunkie

Trinity College

Ibid wrote: »

Voipjunkie, Dublin Bus receives a large grant from the State. Simply saying "it would be spent on other things anyway" does not mean Dublin Bus is profitable. Let's not derail the thread.

Why do people think DB deserve more?

Well try reading what I wrote not what you think I wrote

DB does make money

The subvention it receives is for providing social (ie Non profitable services) that otherwise would not be provided.
As the government wants those services provided if the subvention was not going to DB it would go to someone else to provide those services

Pretty simple really

http://www.cie.ie/about_us/pdf/CIE_06_no_pics.pdf

Profit of €4.3 million with a PSO of €69.8 million last financial year 2006

Binomate

I know a good few people in Trinity, and trust me, they are far from our greatest minds.

Time Magazine

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Well try reading what I wrote not what you think I wrote

I can read, thanks. You seem not to have read my comment about derailing the thread, though.

DB does make money

From The Competition Authority

Beyond the operational subsidy received from public funds (over €300m between 1998 & 2003) Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus have obtained significant additional Government funding including:

(a) Fuel rebates worth close to €44 million in 2001 (private operators have been able to avail of such rebates since 2001);

(b) Funding to compensate for transporting passengers with free travel passes;

(c) Funding for the School Transport Scheme which has been administered by Bus Éireann on behalf of the Department of Education and Science since 1967 (worth around €110 million to Bus Éireann in 2003).

(d) CIE’s bus subsidiaries have received significant financial support from the National Development Plan 2000-2006 to replace or increase their fleets and finance infrastructure development (€346.8 million to Dublin Bus and €196.9 million to Bus Éireann).

The subvention it receives is for providing social (ie Non profitable services) that otherwise would not be provided.

Dublin Bus refers to all of their services as community ventures. The European Commission's definition of a community venture is one which would not be provided by the private sector, i.e. unprofitable. So either Dublin Bus are lying about all of their routes being community ventures (which has serious implications about the subsidies they receive) or none of their routes are profitable. If none of their routes are profitable, then aside from serious questions about their efficiency, they are being subsidised on each route. This does not mean they make money. It means the government are willing to subsidise these routes. Which is the definition of a grant. Which is what this thread is about.

And well done on completely pissing over this thread by mentioning the figure of €69.8m - the subsidy Dublin Bus received from the State in their latest accounts. Their grant exceeded the deficit and there was a positive residual. If you receive a grant of €69m and have a surplus of €4m, I can't see how you can claim to be making money and not laugh your face off.

Gizzle

Trinity College

It depends, should the one who has performed the best get the lions share, or the one who needs it the most?

projectmayhem

prendy wrote: »

i read somewhere that dublin bus is the only part of CIE that makes money..the rest are subsidised.

afaik dublin bus, of all the public transport services in ireland, is the one that makes the lesser loss, as it were. they still loose money and in business terms are hemoraging money, but it's less then DART, LUAS etc. etc.

i would imagine trinity gets a bigger grant then Dublin Bus. not because it deserves it, but because the government has to pay for people's education, wherever it may be given. also because i believe dublin bus gets european money pumped into it...

Colonel Sanders

Trinity College

I'd say trinity. However I went there and its far from an educational institute. Students there are second class citizens to tourists. The college doesn't give a f*ck about it students and tries to screw as much money as possible out of them.

I used to have my lectures at the back end of the college was in a terrible state, however the college authorities didn't care because none of the guided tours brought tourists down that far.

EDIT: I actually voted for Dublin bus by accident, what a tool I am!!!

Degsy

Binomate wrote: »

I know a good few people in Trinity, and trust me, they are far from our greatest minds.

Thats putting it very,very mildly.

Unshelved

Not many great minds coming from there now a days, though

Oh really?
www.independent.ie/national-news/the-enright-stuff-anne-scoops-booker-1198418.html

Dub13

Trinity College

Ibid wrote: »

Trust me, it doesn't make money.

IIRC Dublin Bus made 300k last year,its not much but still a profit.I think the State subsided Dublin Bus to the tune of 80 million.

projectmayhem

Unshelved wrote: »

Oh really?
www.independent.ie/national-news/the-enright-stuff-anne-scoops-booker-1198418.html

are we to assume she's from trinity?

either way can i assume she came from there a good while ago? either way, i can easily find people from DIT, UCD, DCU, ITT or wherever else bringing good things to the world. sure the other day a lecturer told us and referenced us to a white paper written by a student in DIT who graduated a year or two ago, and in his field it's the most cited paper in the world at the moment.

Time Magazine

Lads, if Dublin Bus are given €80m* by the state and they return a surplus of 300k, they're not making money. They're really losing €79.7m. What matters to the tax payer is not the figure on the bottom of the balance sheet but the one in the middle that says "Grant".

*In running costs alone - the price of the buses between 2000-2006 was an extra €350m as far as I can see.

This thread is derailing rapidly so I'll give some of figures. This document shows that direct State grants to Trinity totalled €84.9m in 2005. So on the direct subsidy side of things, Trinity gets about €15m more a year than Dublin Bus. However you kinda have to add on Academic Fees (primarily paid by the govt) which totalled €72.7m. Both of these add to about €160m, €3m a week.

On the other hand, Dublin Bus seems to get its busses "free" care of the National Development Plan which runs into hundreds of millions. I haven't done the exact figures per year for this, but it looks to be in the region of about €3m a week, too.

Time Magazine

Degsy wrote: »

Thats putting it very,very mildly.

Quote from the Sunday Times, here

Trinity College Dublin has been awarded The Sunday Times Irish University of the Year for 2007 and for the fifth year in a row has topped The Sunday Times Irish University League Table. The award was announced in The Sunday Times University Guide 2007 published yesterday which assesses all third-level institutions in Ireland and Britain under 25 different criteria.

In awarding the prize The Sunday Times noted that the College which has topped the league table since 2002, “attracts the republic’s highest calibre of entrants and has recorded consistent excellence across several key indicators”.

Trinity College scored in total 602 points. The College scored highest across the university and HEI sector concerning the Leaving Cert results achieved by new entrants: “The academic calibre of the current intake, based on Leaving Certificate results, is easily the highest of the republic’s seven universities”, noted the Guide.

Now, to lectures!

Borzoi

Unshelved wrote: »

Oh really?
www.independent.ie/national-news/the-enright-stuff-anne-scoops-booker-1198418.html

Joe Duffy -1
Mary Harney -1

L1011

projectmayhem wrote: »

afaik dublin bus, of all the public transport services in ireland, is the one that makes the lesser loss, as it were. they still loose money and in business terms are hemoraging money, but it's less then DART, LUAS etc. etc.

The Luas makes a profit and is unsubsidised except for travel pass rebates (which all operators are capable of getting should they register correctly). Its profits are so low as to take many years to pay off the infrastructural costs - but the infrastructural costs were borne by the state for a reason, namely the benefit to traffic and business/industry the system brings. And anyway, as its a privately run system, the profits aren't going to pay back the states costs anyway

stovelid

Trinity College

Binomate wrote: »

I know a good few people in Trinity, and trust me, they are far from our greatest minds.

Why on earth would the bright ones associate with you?

Driver 8

Trinity College

Simce when have the Leaving Cert results been a measure of the quality of students? Learning things by rote is hardly a full picture of the intellectual ability of a person.

Reku

Trinity College

Dublin bus should get more IMO:
1. Dublin bus have never "appropriated" land from TCD, TCD took the bus lane from Pearse St. for their new sports hall.
2. Dublin bus has far more customers who will benefit than TCD has students and staff.
3. Dublin bus doesn't discriminate against people in order to restrict access.

Terry

Trinity College

farohar wrote: »

Dublin bus should get more IMO:
1. Dublin bus have never "appropriated" land from TCD, TCD took the bus lane from Pearse St. for their new sports hall.
2. Dublin bus has far more customers who will benefit than TCD has students and staff.
3. Dublin bus doesn't discriminate against people in order to restrict access.

Number 3 is the clincher.

You don't need a certain amount of points to get a bus. All you need is your fare.

Thirdfox

Terry wrote: »

Number 3 is the clincher.

You don't need a certain amount of points to get a bus. All you need is your fare.

Trinity Access Programme - www.tcd.ie/Trinity_Access/

Driver 8:
Believe me - the Leaving Cert is not about learning by rote (you want to see real rote learning try China).

In fact I don't think students learn enough things off by heart - grammar, equations etc. and instead relying on calculators, log books...

L1011

Thirdfox wrote: »

Trinity Access Programme - www.tcd.ie/Trinity_Access/

Driver 8:
Believe me - the Leaving Cert is not about learning by rote (you want to see real rote learning try China).

In fact I don't think students learn enough things off by heart - grammar, equations etc. and instead relying on calculators, log books...

Right, lets correct this - Dublin Bus doesn't make you have a certain number of points or wait some years (well, thats arguable) and jump through hoops to get in.

The_Conductor

Trinity College

I really do not understand where you are coming from with this one. Trinity College provides an education to a small number of students- while Dublin bus delivers over 50 times more people to and from work (and elsewhere) on a daily basis. Its like asking which is better value- an apple or credit for my phone- they are both providing a service worthy of subvention.

Of far more interest would be something along the lines of comparing the core funding and subvention per student of the different universities to each other- and then drawing up a table denoting the order of merit in which the money is better spent (from a relative perspective).

Central government funding of the 7 universities reached €1.4 billion in 2004- of which Trinity’s cut was €126.7m, with UCC (which has a little over 31% more students) receiving €121.558m and DCU (with 18% less students than TCD) a comparatively paltry €51.6m.

Curiously- the Provost of Trinity, along with the heads of the other universities all received salary packages exceeding those of the Taoiseach/senior government ministers (when you factor in rent free accommodation on Grafton Street, those Jack B Yeats paintings and the butler- the Provost of Trinity's remuneration package approaches 700k per annum.......)

Is this value for money?

Reku

Trinity College

smccarrick wrote: »

Curiously- the Provost of Trinity, along with the heads of the other universities all received salary packages exceeding those of the Taoiseach/senior government ministers (when you factor in rent free accommodation on Grafton Street, those Jack B Yeats paintings and the butler- the Provost of Trinity's remuneration package approaches 700k per annum.......)

Is this value for money?

This is something I think should be fixed, I mean what are they doing that makes them deserve THAT much for an annual salary?

Terry

Trinity College

Thirdfox wrote: »

Trinity Access Programme - www.tcd.ie/Trinity_Access/

Driver 8:
Believe me - the Leaving Cert is not about learning by rote (you want to see real rote learning try China).

In fact I don't think students learn enough things off by heart - grammar, equations etc. and instead relying on calculators, log books...

I could go across the road and get the 11.45 66A into the city centre.
I doubt I would then be allowed to just walk into Trinity and start a course.

Dublin bus is readily available to anyone in the greater Dublin area.
Trinity college is not.

Unshelved

Curiously- the Provost of Trinity, along with the heads of the other universities all received salary packages exceeding those of the Taoiseach/senior government ministers (when you factor in rent free accommodation on Grafton Street, those Jack B Yeats paintings and the butler- the Provost of Trinity's remuneration package approaches 700k per annum.......)

The paintings are hardly his to take home after his term is up. They're as much his as the paintings in the National Gallery are mine.

Central government funding of the 7 universities reached €1.4 billion in 2004- of which Trinity’s cut was €126.7m, with UCC (which has a little over 31% more students) receiving €121.558m and DCU (with 18% less students than TCD) a comparatively paltry €51.6m.

Overheads are different in different institutions. For example, the Library in Trinity is the only one on this island with UK copyright, so it is far, far more expensive to run and staff than any other Library in the country. That's just an example - but to compare the two is back to your analogy of an apple or phone credit.

JIZZLORD

Atari Jaguar

why is this thread just about trinity, ffs, all our universities and it's deserver more money than they're currently getting, and where can this money come from? Research. Being dependent on the state is an outdated view for colleges. Competitive research funding is the way forward.

I'm guessing the op is a trinner, i'm not, i'm in nuig. But i dont see why this should be solely a trinity needs money more than everyone else.

NADA

I'm in trinity. It's the most over rated place in this country. It's just like any other University except older. And I second the point about trinity not caring about it's students! It's more interested in tourists and postgrads to be honest!

Voipjunkie

Trinity College

Ibid wrote: »

I can read, thanks. You seem not to have read my comment about derailing the thread, though.


From The Competition Authority


Dublin Bus refers to all of their services as community ventures. The European Commission's definition of a community venture is one which would not be provided by the private sector, i.e. unprofitable. So either Dublin Bus are lying about all of their routes being community ventures (which has serious implications about the subsidies they receive) or none of their routes are profitable. If none of their routes are profitable, then aside from serious questions about their efficiency, they are being subsidised on each route. This does not mean they make money. It means the government are willing to subsidise these routes. Which is the definition of a grant. Which is what this thread is about.

And well done on completely pissing over this thread by mentioning the figure of €69.8m - the subsidy Dublin Bus received from the State in their latest accounts. Their grant exceeded the deficit and there was a positive residual. If you receive a grant of €69m and have a surplus of €4m, I can't see how you can claim to be making money and not laugh your face off.

I suggest you ask one of your lecturers at TCD to explain the concept of a PSO payment it is not a grant it is a PUBLIC SERVICE OBLIGATION payment.

Dublin bus the same as any other company private or semi state is entitled to be compensated for providing an obligatory public service.

And trying to count the payment for carrying passengers with free social welfare passes as a grant is ridiculous particularly because that payment is nowhere near the actual cost of providing the free travel scheme.
Is the payment to Eircom or BT for the Free phones scheme a Government grant.




honestly talk about clutching at straws.

An Citeog

Trinity College

farohar wrote: »

3. Dublin bus doesn't discriminate against people in order to restrict access.

Dublin Bus actually actively practices price discrimination by applying different fares to different socio-economic groups.

Trinity College is an important educational institution in Ireland but I don't see it as more deserving of state funding than any of our other third level institutions. It doesn't actually provide any service that isn't readily available in UCD, DCU or DIT.

Dublin Bus, on the other hand, is the sole provider of a vital service in the countries capital and runs at a loss. State intervention is needed to keep this service operational.

Tigger

Atari Jaguar

An Citeog wrote: »

Dublin Bus actually actively practices price discrimination by applying different fares to different socio-economic groups.

Snip

.

whast art tho jabbering of

seriously how so?

The_Conductor

Trinity College

An Citeog wrote: »

Trinity College is an important educational institution in Ireland but I don't see it as more deserving of state funding than any of our other third level institutions. It doesn't actually provide any service that isn't readily available in UCD, DCU or DIT.

Subvention on a per student basis is over twice as high in TCD as in the NUI colleges. So- we do actively discriminate in favour of Trinity. Why? The original argument was to preserve the protestant ethos of Trinity (the NUI colleges were presumed to have a "Catholic" ethos), but that argument can hardly hold in today's world. UCD and TCD were very almost merged in the early 1960's- you know it might not have been a bad idea if it had happened.

Ps- Can you still buy your Masters in TCD?

An Citeog

Trinity College

rbd wrote: »

whast art tho jabbering of

seriously how so?

Children's fare, adult's fare and no charge for OAPs.

http://www.answers.com/topic/price-discrimination?cat=biz-fin

smccarrick wrote:

Subvention on a per student basis is over twice as high in TCD as in the NUI colleges. So- we do actively discriminate in favour of Trinity. Why? The original argument was to preserve the protestant ethos of Trinity (the NUI colleges were presumed to have a "Catholic" ethos), but that argument can hardly hold in today's world. UCD and TCD were very almost merged in the early 1960's- you know it might not have been a bad idea if it had happened.

That's what i said, you just expanded on it!

smccarrick wrote:

Ps- Can you still buy your Masters in TCD?

I don't know if that was directed at me but you did quote my post. I wouldn't have a clue, I'm actually a DCU student (well, kind of)!

Setun

Binomate wrote:

I know a good few people in Trinity, and trust me, they are far from our greatest minds.

+1

A few bavs at the pav does not necessarily constitute genius :rolleyes:

Tigger

Atari Jaguar

An Citeog wrote: »

Children's fare, adult's fare and no charge for OAPs.

Thats not different socio-economic groups thats different age-groups

since you like using definations:

Definition:
UK method of classifying individuals used by the Registrar General in the analysis of Census of Population material, based entirely on information about the job of the person classified.

and before you stsrt streching the defination please tell me what is the issue of using age as a method for pricing
kids 1/2 price seems fare (sic) as they can't earn
adults full price as they are adults
and then OAPs free when the busses aren't full as sure thery're old and stuff :rolleyes:

An Citeog

Trinity College

rbd wrote: »

Thats not different socio-economic groups thats different age-groups

Yeah, my bad. In my defence, I'm not up very long!

rbd wrote:

and before you stsrt streching the defination please tell me what is the issue of using age as a method for pricing
kids 1/2 price seems fare (sic) as they can't earn
adults full price as they are adults
and then OAPs free when the busses aren't full as sure thery're old and stuff :rolleyes:

I never claimed to take any issue with it. I was merely responding to your point about Trinity restricting access. Trinity restricts access to entrants in the same way as every other third level institution in the state so it's not exactly a fair point to make.

Tigger

Atari Jaguar

An Citeog wrote: »

Yeah, my bad. In my defence, I'm not up very long!



I never claimed to take any issue with it. I was merely responding to your point about Trinity restricting access. Trinity restricts access to entrants in the same way as every other third level institution in the state so it's not exactly a fair point to make.

i didn't but thats grand

i just was csurprised that dub bus was getting away with a wierd un-equallity scheme like the social and fás etc

Corruptedmorals

Afaik, you can only buy your Masters in Trinity if you get First Class Honours in your degree, and apparently it can be from either Trinity, Oxford or Cambridge. Or is it an M.Phil? And I'm pretty sure it's €543.

Tigger

Atari Jaguar

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Afaik, you can only buy your Masters in Trinity if you get First Class Honours in your degree, and apparently it can be from either Trinity, Oxford or Cambridge. Or is it an M.Phil? And I'm pretty sure it's €543.

thats crazy

The_Conductor

Trinity College

rbd wrote: »

thats crazy

It may be crazy- but thats why an NUI masters is always far more valuable to an employer- there is always a question mark over whether a Trinity one was simply bought. Its been that way for longer than I can remember. The NUI colleges had a similar scheme when entering college, where you could pay IR£200 to buy your Matriculation exams if you had gotten above a certain grade in your leaving cert (they did away with it in 1995). Eventually they stopped holding the exam at all- simply charged the IR£200, then they stopped and absorbed the IR£200 into the annual fees.

Its just a scheme for raising money- but it does devalue the qualification for those who go to a lot of trouble to earn it in what would be presumed the normal manner.

Time Magazine

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Afaik, you can only buy your Masters in Trinity if you get First Class Honours in your degree, and apparently it can be from either Trinity, Oxford or Cambridge. Or is it an M.Phil? And I'm pretty sure it's €543.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

If you have reached the standing of bachelor (undergraduate degree) and have been of good standing for at least three years since the time of conferral, you may proceed to receive your MA. Any of these "bought" degrees are MA (all "earned" ones are M.Sc/M.Phil/M.Litt etc.) and are easily discernible, so you're wrong in your assertion that there is any doubt about Trinity postgraduate qualifications, smccarrick. The reason for the progression is very simple. When you register as an undergraduate in Trinity you're essentially registering for a four-year degree, what was once considered a masters' level. You study for four years and get a masters. Just like in the NUI you can study for three, do one year postgrad and get a masters. It's not "buying a masters", nor is it a money making scheme as the €500 is the commencement fee (it's about €300 for undergraduate commencements). Anyone who says such doesn't understand its purpose - internal College bureaucracy. Those who throw the arms up in the air are doing just that.

And no, you can't receive it from either of the Oxbridge universities. They're from the University of Dublin.

Unshelved

It seems illogical doesn't it? Trinity's point is - I think - that they (along with Oxford, Cambridge and some other universities) offer a four-year arts degree, where technically you can claim your degree at the end of the third year, but you stay on for an extra year, specialise in one subject and write a dissertation. That therefore qualifies you for the additional Master's degree - after you've paid your money. It's the equivalent of doing a taught Master's degree in an NUI college, following a three-year arts degree cycle. I'm not sure whether this holds true for other TCD degrees.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, that's just how things have evolved. In reality not that many students opt for buying the Master's degree.

Trinity do offer Master's degrees in Arts subjects but they're called M.Litt degrees instead.

Edit:
And I see that Ibid has beaten me to the punch, with an explaination of the same thing!

The_Conductor

Trinity College

Ibid wrote: »

Just like in the NUI you can study for three, do one year postgrad and get a masters.

Thats only the case with arts degrees in the NUI. All science/engineering/med/vet/architecture/ag etc degrees are 3 years for a basic degree, 4 years for an honours degree, and a further 2 years for a masters (there are some taught masters that are 1 year, but not many). I had to write a dissertation for my B.Sc. which I then had to defend to a panel of external experts. Thats for my undergrad degree- not a masters.

There is a question mark over some qualifications- I have been involved in recruitment of a number of staff and have had to try to determine where they were on the NQAI scale, as saying you have a degree or a masters in blah now means virtually nothing.