Fee Paying Schools

dotsman

No

Dudess wrote: »

Don't teachers all receive the same training, irrespective of whether they work in private or public schools?
And of course those who go to private schools excel - their parents can afford to pay for grinds and revision courses in those money-grabbing "tuition centres".
I believe it boils down to the facilities on offer, and the individual. Non fee-paying schools can offer excellent facilities, and private schools can offer no facilities. E.g. I went to a non fee-paying girls school in Cork that has excellent facilities, and there is only one private all-girls school in Cork - total sh*t-box with no facilities. Where does the money go? And why don't parents refuse to send their daughters there? Because they're bloody snobs, it's the only private girls school in Cork city, and God forbid that they'd send their girls to non fee-paying schools. Admittedly, some people probably send their daughters there because of family tradition, or they may have ties to the place, or a parent might work there.
On the other hand, my brothers went to a private school because there weren't any public schools nearby with such good facilities. Well there was one but we were outside the catchment area. If we were within it though, they would definitely have gone there.

Back in my school days, I was friends with a lot of Scoil Mhuire girls, and very few were snobs. Every single one of them (of the ones I was friendly with) ended up working in top class professions (lawyers, doctors, dentists, pharmacists and accountants and even one actuary! etc)

You have to admit, there must be doing something right in the school...

To be honest, your description of them all as snobs says more about you than them:eek:

Oh, and they were (in my day anyway) the hottest girls school (followed closely by angelas across the road):D

Agree with the "total sh*t-box with no facilities" though;)

Sonnenblumen

No

nesf wrote: »

JC 2K3 asked about willing determined children, my point is that the bright ones will be fine. Most of the issues you are bringing up have more to do with the nature of school systems than anything about the public/private divide. There is some research that suggests that adolescence is as much a product giving teens only other teens as peers as anything else.

By the time the child gets to 'pick' LC subjects, he/she would have spent 10-11 years in school and with 2 more to go. By that stage any shortcomings will certainly have been well and truely manifested.

Environments have a huge bearing on individual development, school, home, neighbourhood etc etc. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the variance between growing up in a 'privileged' area versus an 'under-privileged' area. Arguing that gifted kids will excell no matter what the environment or conditions are like is besides the point. Exceptions do not make the rules.

What do you understand to be the public/private divide?

I would also like to know more about the 'school systems' you refer to.

Dudess

If it was the Atari Jaguar school.

dotsman wrote: »

To be honest, your description of them all as snobs says more about you than them

No, I know plenty of Scoil Mhuire girls and they're lovely. I'm referring to the parents though. As I said, unless you've ties to the school, a family history, you're working there etc, why on earth would you send your daughter to such a dump? Could it possibly be, I wonder, due to the fact that it's the only private girls school in Cork city and you COULDN'T be sending them to a non fee-paying school?!

Oh, and they were (in my day anyway) the hottest girls school (followed closely by angelas across the road)

Yeah, my brothers (Pres boys) used always say that. I went to St Al's - more known for its rough element! It still had excellent facilities though, and there were plenty of great girls in my year. It is a shame all right that it got a bad rep because of a small element, most of whom dropped out after third year anyway.

Dudess

If it was the Atari Jaguar school.

Yes I do - having money means upper-class :rolleyes: and upper-class means respectable, mannerly, incapable of being boorish, loutish, violent, aggressive. Of course. Only poor people fit into those categories. No Blackrock College boy has ever committed an act of violence...

Also, the use of the term "upper-class" - only the aristocracy are upper-class. Despite your delusions of grandeur, people who are rich but not lords, ladies etc are middle-class or upper middle-class.

Terry

Undecided

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Terry - stay on topic and let's have less of the emotive deflections.

The world would be better for children if more adults took more responsibility for their actions.

That's not an answer to my questions.

nesf

Undecided

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

I would also like to know more about the 'school systems' you refer to.

The article in Scientific American (I think?) talked about the idea of classes based on age and the difference in mentality between teenagers of the same age being essentially lumped in together versus more traditional societies where it's common for them to go working with adults and essentially socialise and act as adults because they are treated as such.

It's interesting to consider the question of whether keeping everyone in school until 15 or 18 is actually a good thing. It seems to just be assumed to be true by most people I've talked to. It leads to awkward questions like, is a plumber a better plumber because he studied Hamlet?

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

What do you understand to be the public/private divide?

The idea that kids whose parents can pay for private schools automatically receive a better education. Similar to how if you can afford health insurance that you get better healthcare.

Thankfully we're not in the situation where you would need to pay fees or buy health insurance for your kids to receive education or healthcare, which is worth keeping in mind.

Dudess

If it was the Atari Jaguar school.

So the only reason really for sending your kids to a private school is: you may as well pay for it if you have the money - yeah! Just think how rich you'll look to the neighbours!
As for the car analogy (which I think you got backwards): to me, a car is functional, so I'd just pay for whatever gets me from A to B. Better than blowing a fortune on something else that does the exact same thing.

nesf

Undecided

Dudess wrote: »

So the only reason really for sending your kids to a private school is: you may as well pay for it if you have the money - yeah! Just think how rich you'll look to the neighbours!

No, in fairness he said if you have the money then why not. Which is very different to the people who take out loans just so they can say their kid is in Blackrock or whatever.

Nuttzz

No

i went to davids in artane, an absolute sh1t hole, 2 weeks before the leaving cert 3 teachers told me not to attempt the honours papers i was studying as i wasnt up to it. Had i followed their advise i would have never have go into college (got a b2,c1 &d1 as it turned out) it will be fee paying for me even if it breaks me....

dotsman

No

Dudess wrote: »

Yeah, my brothers (Pres boys)

Pres boy as well:D

Dudess wrote: »

why on earth would you send your daughter to such a dump? Could it possibly be, I wonder, due to the fact that it's the only private girls school in Cork city and you COULDN'T be sending them to a non fee-paying school?!

I think the reason why (most) parents send their girls to that school was the same reason my parents sent my sisters to that school. Because of the environment - a child can still be a great student no matter what school they are in, but they are more likely to excel when surrounded by similar peers. For me, had I gone to another school (with, say, a worse reputation) I might still be where I am today, but there is also the chance that the friends I would have maid in said school would not have been as academic/ambitious and may have "dragged" me down to their level.

In going to Pres, I was surrounded, not by peers asking "will I do a 3rd level course?", but by peers asking "which top course am I aiming for?". I have to say that some teachers were great, some were poor - probably the same as most schools. The reason Pres has such a high record is because of the students themselves. The "peer pressure" (a term usually used to describe a bad thing) was to get the best results possible and to get into the course that you want - and not settle for "middle of the road".

The parents of all my friends (and my parents) had gotten to where they were in life (being able to pay the fees:D) by studying hard and working hard. This home environment, seconded by that school environment, was/is the most conducive to a kid excelling academically. To me, fee-paying schools are simply about increasing the chance of the kid ending up in college.

Oh and on a side note, I'm out of Pres 8 years, and people are amazed at how close I am still with my school buddies (i.e. very close with 9-10 and keep in touch with another 10-15). I know many people who within a year or 2 of leaving school, don't keep in contact with anyone!

Dudess

If it was the Atari Jaguar school.

'99 eh? Bet I know a rake of your mates (even though I was two years ahead of you). Ah, Cork's so bloomin' small.

nesf

Undecided

dotsman wrote: »

In going to Pres, I was surrounded, not by peers asking "will I do a 3rd level course?", but by peers asking "which top course am I aiming for?".

It was similar enough in my school (which was a rural community school) among the people who were academically inclined. Most of the others were asking "which trade are you aiming for?", which is an equally valid question in fairness. It's good to have a mix of academic and non-academically inclined kids in a school, you can't know for sure whether your child will be happy in a school that's purely one way or another. Putting a kid who is poor academically into a school that focuses strongly on academics is just not a good idea.

Dudess wrote:

'99 eh? Bet I know a rake of your mates (even though I was two years ahead of you). Ah, Cork's so bloomin' small.

Ditto.

timmywex

from my point of view, i go to a public school, and its in the top 10 schools in the country. So, i think it doesnt matter, in private schools, they work harder imo, because they are under pressure from parents etc, so generally they are smart going in.

it depends on your backround too, in my expirience, children form better off families do better in school, and better off families for some reason, like to send their children to fee paying schools

Sonnenblumen

No

Terry wrote: »

That's not an answer to my questions.

But I already had.

Your Q on abstinance/abortion is rhetorical and BTW there is also contraception is also widely available. Who should I decide what another should do - all I'd say is that they should think and act responsibily.

Leaving the extremes aside, it is also nonsense to suggest that having € 4k+ is entitles you to have babies.

People are assessed for many things few of which would carry similar responsibility to being a parent. There will be circumstances where this might change.

dame

If it was the Atari Jaguar school.

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Twisted logic, I never said that any child deserves to suffer. If the parents fail the child who's to blame? One's with money or those with no morals?
This country like England has for too long made it too possible for irresponsible people to have children. It is the Welfare State syndrome gone wrong, dreadfully wrong and children suffer as a result.

So having money equals having morals and deserving to have children, not having money means you automatically have no morals.

Who do you think you are implying that children suffer because their parents cannot afford or don't want to send their children to a fee-paying school? Do you realise that class sizes in "disadvantaged" schools are kept smaller than those in other schools, they get more resources than other schools, and there are more programs (breakfast clubs, homework clubs, etc) devised and implemented to help them do as well in life as they possibly can?

The children in a neighbourhood that you would consider completely beneath you and your moral standards are probably getting far more personal attention and specialist help (remedial etc as required) than your (future?) children who will be attending a fee-paying school where they are simply taught the same curriculum as every other child in the country. Other posters have already pointed out to you that all teachers are trained in the same way, to the same standards. It has been pointed out that actually teachers in some private schools are paid less than in a regular primary school, meaning that teachers will take a job there if they don't get a job somewhere else. Dudess and other's have pointed out that fee-paying does not mean better facilities.

Climb back down to earth sunshine. Money will not buy your child a better education than the poor misfortunates who are forced to attend regular schools.

In fact, your children might grow up spoilt and lazy, thinking that they are owed everything in life, so they'll never be any good at anything! Actually, I think it's a good thing that you'll be sending your children to a fee-paying school......have plenty of them......they'll help you waste your money away on things that are actually at least as good, for free!

nesf

Undecided

|Cookies wrote: »

If you have the money to send your kid to a good school which involves paying fees..why the hell not?

i dont get what your trying to say tbh.

She's getting at the kind of people who send their kids to private schools to show off that they have money.

Dudess

If it was the Atari Jaguar school.

But the point is constantly being made that you don't have to spend money to get a good education. And of course people send their kids to private schools to show off how much money they have. Or they don't believe their kids "belong" in commoner schools. The same kind of people who probably wouldn't dream of tipping a waiter 50 cent, or would run back into the newsagents if they've been shortchanged by 20 cent. But God forbid that they'd spare money when it comes to what school they'll send their offspring to.

Nesf quoting me wrote:

And, I knew a few guys from Pres from 99 from college.

Did I definitely say that? I can't recall it or find it.

nesf

Undecided

|Cookies wrote: »

i dout ANYONE does that.

if you wanted to show of your money you'd buy a 100k car.

I knew a few families back home who did it. It's not common but it exists. It is bloody weird though.

Dudess wrote: »

Did I definitely say that? I can't recall it or find it.

Fixed. I think I absent-mindedly typed what I was going to say in the quote tags and then agreed with it.

ejmaztec

No

I don't know why anyone in Ireland consider themselves to be in a different class to anyone else. There is no class structure in Ireland. I know many brand-new Beemer/Merc/Big House/blah blah people, who think that they are middle-class, simply because they've acquired a certain lifestyle. In reality, most of them are still the same uncouth knuckle-draggers that they were before they struck lucky.

It is true that some parents ship their children off to private school because of a family connection/tradition, whether that particular school is crap, or not.

I send my daughter to a private school, not to appear upper-crust to my neighbours, but to give my daughter a better chance than she was getting at our local secondary school. My neighbours don't know where she goes to school. I'm the tightest, meanest bas*tard that I know, and it grieves me to part with hard-earned money on anything, but even I think that, in my daughter's case, it's necesssary. I would never have sent her to some place that had an un-proven track record, no way!

I do find it amusing, however, when I count the pretentious big-knuckled biddies in their off-roaders, picking up their children at the end of the day.

I went to a private, Irish-priest-run school in the UK. Some local lads saw me in my new uniform, one that they hadn't seen before, then asked me if I went to one of those special schools for the mentally-retarded. There can be no possible delusion of superiority after a crack like that.

Sonnenblumen

No

dame wrote: »

So having money equals having morals and deserving to have children, not having money means you automatically have no morals.

Who do you think you are implying that children suffer because their parents cannot afford or don't want to send their children to a fee-paying school? Do you realise that class sizes in "disadvantaged" schools are kept smaller than those in other schools, they get more resources than other schools, and there are more programs (breakfast clubs, homework clubs, etc) devised and implemented to help them do as well in life as they possibly can?

The children in a neighbourhood that you would consider completely beneath you and your moral standards are probably getting far more personal attention and specialist help (remedial etc as required) than your (future?) children who will be attending a fee-paying school where they are simply taught the same curriculum as every other child in the country. Other posters have already pointed out to you that all teachers are trained in the same way, to the same standards. It has been pointed out that actually teachers in some private schools are paid less than in a regular primary school, meaning that teachers will take a job there if they don't get a job somewhere else. Dudess and other's have pointed out that fee-paying does not mean better facilities.

Climb back down to earth sunshine. Money will not buy your child a better education than the poor misfortunates who are forced to attend regular schools.

In fact, your children might grow up spoilt and lazy, thinking that they are owed everything in life, so they'll never be any good at anything! Actually, I think it's a good thing that you'll be sending your children to a fee-paying school......have plenty of them......they'll help you waste your money away on things that are actually at least as good, for free!

Your analysis is flawed very flawed. Your assertion that all teachers in this country are trained in the same way and to the same standard is also incorrect.
Your assertion that schools in disadvantage areas are doing well would be good news but I doubt it is true. In fact many schools are under pressure trying to provide places and for the last few years the DOE has been firefighting a gross capital underspend from previous years.

I have sufficient knowledge of private and state to know without knowing every single school that the Private school offers superior facilities in a superior environment.
Your poor choice of terms to identify pupils from either type reflects a prejudicial attitude and underlined by your insulting comments.

I have every confidence that my investment in my children's eduction is well spent and gladly. For what it is worth, your attitude re-affirms this longheld view.

I never said that money=morals or no money=no morals. What I did say was that parents with money were more likely to use money to provide a better education for their children.

Dudess

If it was the Atari Jaguar school.

nesf wrote:

Fixed. I think I absent-mindedly typed what I was going to say in the quote tags and then agreed with it.

Ah the power of mods - they can even put words in your mouth!;)

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Your assertion that all teachers in this country are trained in the same way and to the same standard is also incorrect.

Is it? How so? I don't profess to know a huge amount about the education system, but I've never heard anything to support your claim. My uncle is a secondary school vice-principal and according to him, all teachers receive the exact same training. Isn't there just one h. dip?

ejmaztec wrote: »

I do find it amusing, however, when I count the pretentious big-knuckled biddies in their off-roaders, picking up their children at the end of the day.

Yep. And to those who believe that you'll only be mixing with upper-class types in private schools - bollocks. There are also extremely wealthy new-monied knackers who are also snobbish and will also insist on sending their rough, scummy kids to private schools.
I think kids who went to private school up to around ten years ago, when there wasn't as much wealth around, might have been all right in general, but now, in materialistic Ireland?!

Terry

Undecided

|Cookies wrote: »

If you have the money to send your kid to a good school which involves paying fees..why the hell not?

i dont get what your trying to say tbh.

timmywex wrote: »

from my point of view, i go to a public school, and its in the top 10 schools in the country. So, i think it doesnt matter, in private schools, they work harder imo, because they are under pressure from parents etc, so generally they are smart going in.

it depends on your backround too, in my expirience, children form better off families do better in school, and better off families for some reason, like to send their children to fee paying schools

|Cookies wrote: »

because they can afford it.

they want their kid to get a good education, so they want to spend money on it.



i dout ANYONE does that.

if you wanted to show of your money you'd buy a 100k car.

I've just highlighted some of the grammatical errors and spelling errors in those posts.
Huzzah for the private school system.

Money well spent.

Dudess

If it was the Atari Jaguar school.

Tee hee

Terry

Undecided

Dudess wrote: »

Tee hee

What are you laughing at?

I can see your deleted post.

Sonnenblumen

No

Dudess wrote: »

Is it? How so? I don't profess to know a huge amount about the education system, but I've never heard anything to support your claim. My uncle is a secondary school vice-principal and according to him, all teachers receive the exact same training. Isn't there just one h dip

Well do you think you/your uncle could figure out that not all teachers working in Ireland are trained in Ireland? And would it be pushing the envelope too far to imagine that some of these might be trained to a different standard ie better than the h-dip??

Dudess

If it was the Atari Jaguar school.

Terry wrote: »

What are you laughing at?

I can see your deleted post.

Yeah, for some reason I quoted myself, meaning to quote you. Then I just couldn't be arsed quoting you, but I was referring to the grammar thingy. Weird isn't it, considering teachers in private schools RECEIVE BETTER TRAINING :rolleyes:

Dudess

If it was the Atari Jaguar school.

|Cookies wrote: »

God, your well funny aren't you?

It's you're.

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Well do you think you/your uncle could figure out that not all teachers working in Ireland are trained in Ireland? And would it be pushing the envelope too far to imagine that some of these might be trained to a different standard ie better than the h-dip??

Oh so private schools have a policy of ONLY employing teachers who trained abroad in countries that have a better system than the h. dip, and public schools don't employ such teachers.
Sorry, still nothing there to indicate that the teachers are better in private schools.

Terry

Undecided

|Cookies wrote: »

God, your well funny aren't you?

oh and FYI, timmywex went to a public school...smartass :rolleyes:

Hmm. Point and laugh at the additional grammatical errors, or give an infraction for personal abuse. What to do?
Screw it. I'll point and laugh.

Dudess wrote: »

Yeah, for some reason I quoted myself, meaning to quote you. Then I just couldn't be arsed quoting you, but I was referring to the grammar thingy. Weird isn't it, considering teachers in private schools RECEIVE BETTER TRAINING :rolleyes:

Ahh, Dudess. I was just having a laugh.
I could have been evil and put the post back up.

Dudess

If it was the Atari Jaguar school.

|Cookies wrote: »

And now your just being stupid.

But it's being argued that private schools have better teachers.

Sonnenblumen

No

Dudess wrote: »

It's you're.

Oh so private schools have a policy of ONLY employing teachers who trained abroad in countries that have a better system than the h. dip, and public schools don't employ such teachers.
Sorry, still nothing there to indicate that the teachers are better in private schools.

Dudess - why not go and talk nicely to your uncle, ask him to give you a reading lesson and then you might be better equipped to do some research. Come back when you have found something useful.