Dowsing rods, your opinions

Oryx

ConsiderThis wrote: »

So, for example, aspirin works. It has been proven in clinical trials to work and no one needs to believe it works as we know it works.

In an interesting aside, did you know that branded aspirin and paracetamol has been shown to be more effective than generic? Even when the pills inside are identical?

I make this point to illustrate the power of the mind, which can do things like that, which we have yet to really understand. You make a very valid point about people clinging to their conviction rather than going for the evidence, but such is the mind, which can, based on our experiences, subconciously sway us in ways we dont realise.

What say you to any evidence that dowsing does work? I havent got any personally, but anecdotal evidence is evidence of a sort, even if its flimsy? Is that whole body of evidence simply flawed?

Darlughda

I came across an interesting chapter called 'The Water Diviner' in a book of folklore by Kevin Danaher, originally published in 1964.

He describes a local water diviner in his area, during the early 20th century, using a forked stick called a gabhlóg made of smooth hazel,.."the stem about half an inch in diameter and a foot long, and each of the branches about 18 inches long and not quite as thick as the stem."

Danaher also mentions the water diviner in Irish mythology, as the 17th Century writer Geoffery Keating chronicled: Cormac Mac Árt lay seige to the king of Munster, Fiachaidh Muilleathan, who then beseeched upon his druid Mogh Ruith, to find a source of pure water so the munstermen could quench their thirst.

By the middle ages, many were convinced the water diviner's power came from the devil, yet it was a practice so useful any demonic sources tended to be overlooked.

I particularly like this description:

"Perfectly honest and sincere diviners have described their experiences in the presence of water as curious sensations running over the body and down the arms like a series of small electric shocks, and causing the rod to turn upwards or downwards in the hands with such force that they cannot keep it from doing so. These sensations are sometimes so strong that people experiencing them for the first time have been badly frightened, or have even fainted. It is said, too, that many people, as many as one in every ten or so, have this power without knowing it."

SkepticOne

Oryx wrote: »

In an interesting aside, did you know that branded aspirin and paracetamol has been shown to be more effective than generic? Even when the pills inside are identical?

I think the placebo effect is fairly well known about even if its precise mechanism is not currently fully understood. Much effort is taken to eliminate it from drug tests. In the case of painkillers, there's a large subjective element to the perception of pain and knowledge of the brand could well be changing our subjective experience.

ozzirt

Over 40 years ago a local friend's family had a dowser in to try and find water on their block, after two previous, less than satisfactory tries. This dowser operates a drilling rig and works on the premise no cure no pay.

I arrived at the block after the dowser had gone and the block owners sons were all excited, giving me a pair of rods and saying have a go. Now this section of land is about 50 acres, so to simplify matters and stop me having to wander all over the place I was told to walk in a straight line towards a certain fence post and observe the rods for movement.

I took off across the paddock having no idea of what was going on and having no expectation of what was going to happen. after a hundred yards or whatever, I noticed that the rods were moving to one side without any input to myself nothing was said and I foung myself having to consciously move my wrists to get them pointing ahead again. I continued on and after several more yards the rods started moving again. This happened several more times before I reached the other side of the paddock when we got there i said , "What 's going on"? and was told to move up the fence line and head back to where I originally started which I did with similar results.

When we got back to our start point I was shown a section map upon which the dowswer had indicated where he thought there was water. The aquifer was exactly where I had the indications.

Now before anyone tells me I'm a looney, I don't care what you think, I don't pretend to understand it and it goes against everything I would normally believe in. But the fact remains, I have experienced it and seen others do it. I have never done it again, other than to show other persons what happens.

The site of the water bore was established and it was sunk, reaching water suitable for stock at a depth within several feet of where the dowser predicted. Exactly as he had predicted it would.

I am told by the son of the dowser, that there is more to it and many things can be deduced from the way the rods act, position, flow direction depth, and a good indication of water quality. The latter being very important here as there is plenty of water, but very little suitable for stock or home use.

MrMojoRisin

ConsiderThis wrote: »

It's fine to believe in something on the strength of one test, and anyone can choose to believe in anything they want to believe in.

It's different to prove that something works, as opposed to that we want to believe it works, and that's where the problem is for dowsers or homoeopaths etc.

When you go to turn on an electric light, you don't believe it is going to work. You know it's going to work and you can also explain why it is going to work.

Belief is necessary where there is doubt that something might work. So we say we "believe" homoeopathy works or we "believe" dowsers can find water or whatever it is they are looking for.

---The more we look at the evidence for psychic phenemona, the weaker it becomes, and that's why those who like to say they "believe" in the various psychic phenemona and dowsing and homoeopathy resist examining the evidence for their beliefs and generally reply on anecdote, avoiding considering any evidence which might disagree with their views.---

The double blind trial is one of the crowning achievements of reasoning and of being able to claim beyond doubt that a claim is accurate, and maybe that's why the homoeopathic industry, and dowsers, avoid it.

I've seen countless tests done with dowsers. At the outset the agree to a set of test conditions, and then when they can't find the water, they invariably search for reasons why it didn't work out as they had predicted. It seems their desire to want to believe it simply overrules any evidence to the contrary.

Yes, I believe this is known as 'confirmation bias'...

jojo1981

ConsiderThis wrote: »

There are a number of threads here which challenge beliefs in many things. Homoeopathy, Dowsing, God, Reiki, Aromatherapy etc etc. It's usually not possible to challenge a belief and, usually, not necessary to have to prove something which works.

So, for example, aspirin works. It has been proven in clinical trials to work and no one needs to believe it works as we know it works.

Those who believe in such things as dowsing and homeopathy don't know they work, and thus have to resort to believing they work.

The really interesting thing about belief is that no matter what evidence there is to show that dowsing or homeopathy or any of the alternative medicines don't "work", those who choose to believe it generally blithely ignore it and prefer to continue to believe in it rather than assess the evidence.

I really believe you speak rubbish,., I think others would agree. What you wrote hasn't any real signifigance or even any meaning.

Sorry thats just my opinion.

gerrycollins

My aunt in law is a dowser and its weird.

It came up in conversation one day(as you do) I think its because I was messing with a "Y" shaped branch of a tree where her house was been built.

She took it and said its runs on the female side of her family and showed us how she does it.

after asking a few more basic obvious questions my father asked her to try it on the grounds of her new house which was built on my fathers family land.

My father knew where there was a stream from years past and gave no hints or clues and sure enough she found it.

We all gave it a try and it worked for no one else.

ConsiderThis

Oryx wrote: »

In an interesting aside, did you know that branded aspirin and paracetamol has been shown to be more effective than generic? Even when the pills inside are identical?

I make this point to illustrate the power of the mind, which can do things like that, which we have yet to really understand. You make a very valid point about people clinging to their conviction rather than going for the evidence, but such is the mind, which can, based on our experiences, subconciously sway us in ways we dont realise.

What say you to any evidence that dowsing does work? I havent got any personally, but anecdotal evidence is evidence of a sort, even if its flimsy? Is that whole body of evidence simply flawed?

I am not surprised that branded aspirin or paracetamol has shown to be more effective, and this looks like its is down to the placebo effect. The placebo affect is well known, and the beauty of double blind trials is that if they are set up properly, it can take this into account, to make sure the product on trial has a real effect and not just a placebo effect.

Evidence is important, and its interesting to see that some here still think their beliefs are enough, and are not apparantly curious to search to see if their beliefs are backed up by reality, as opposed to anecdote.

ConsiderThis

SkepticOne wrote: »

I think the placebo effect is fairly well known about even if its precise mechanism is not currently fully understood. Much effort is taken to eliminate it from drug tests. In the case of painkillers, there's a large subjective element to the perception of pain and knowledge of the brand could well be changing our subjective experience.

It's simple to eliminate the effect of the placebo on a properly conducted trial. In a trial, the subjects don't know if they are being given the actul drug being tested, or the dummy one, and even those conducting the trial on the ground should not know which is which. Hence, the placebo effect should apply equally to both trial groups.

Fuinseog

sensitive_soul wrote: »

I haven't posted on here in ages.

Bought ALOT of stuff on Toms Gadgets this year but most recently I just bought a pair of dowsing rods from them. I dont fully believe in the theory that they direct you to energy.... personally, my theory is that you make involuntary movements subconsciously which moves the rods, but we shall see...

Anyone have any experiences or theories they wanna share?

some folk have the gift and i know it takes alot of focusing and really sapps the energy out of you. if you are trying it make sure not to wear anything like a ring or a watch which weaken your energy.

ConsiderThis

Fuinseog wrote: »

some folk have the gift and i know it takes alot of focusing and really sapps the energy out of you. if you are trying it make sure not to wear anything like a ring or a watch which weaken your energy.

It may well be that that's true. Or it may well be that you believe it to be true. Or both. Or neither.

We all have our own prejudices, which doesn't mean our prejudices mean something is factual.

To say some folks have "the gift" may well be true, but until they are able to demonstrate their ability, in a properly observed test, then their "gift" is merely a claim and a belief on the part of those who want to believe it.

It's curious to observe that many who claim to have a "gift" are also reticent to prove it.

We need proof, and belief simply is not enough.

blue42

to the beliver no proof is necssary...to the sceptic no proof will ever surffice!

spoofilyj

I'd normally be pretty skeptical about this too but my uncle has a well boring business and he used to Devine for the best place to drill for water wells in the country for new houses ect, He devined for our house and we have great water and others I know and when checked by more modern methods he has been proved correct 90% odf the time, he stopped a couple of years ago though as apparently over time it weakens your heart. Not sure how dousing rods work for paranormal things though!

ConsiderThis

blue42 wrote: »

to the beliver no proof is necssary...to the sceptic no proof will ever surffice!

Thats not true. To a cynic, perhaps, no evidence will ever suffice.

A sceptic is someone who needs evidence before believing something, and that seem to me to be the only sensible position to hold.

A believer wil lbelieve something no matter what evidence to the contrary is presented.

A cynic will disbelieve even in the face of being presented with real evidence.

The problem with this sort of subject is that we all have our own prejudices and firstly they are hard for us to identify, and secondly they are hard to give up when the evidence suggests they may not be correct.

Secondly, as spoofilyj demonstrates, and as so many on these sort of topics demonstrate, it seems that there are still many who believe something on the basis of anecdotal evidence, even though there is plenty of more comprehensive evidence to show that dowsing does not work when it tested.

blue42

if it dose not work....why has it being used by people for hundreds of years!
surely if it didnt work it would have died out by now.

ConsiderThis

blue42 wrote: »

if it dose not work....why has it being used by people for hundreds of years!
surely if it didnt work it would have died out by now.

Is your argument that, because it's been judged to have been used by people for hundreds of years, then thats enough proof for you, and the length of time something has been around equated to proof that it works?

If so, then I can't agree.

For me, I need actual proof that something works. Dowsing has been tested numerous times where dowsers have claimed to be able to find objects or water. I have never seen a test where they have successfully done that, and have seen many tests where they have not been able to do it.

OF course, that doesn't mean they were never able to succeed and live up to their claims, as chance plays some part, and I have never seen a test where any dowser was able to demonstrate that he or she was able live up to their claims beyond what was expected by chance.

I am a sceptic and require proof, which is the only intelligent position to hold. If you want to believe it works, then hold that belief and cherish it. But don't be fooled into thinking that belief means its true.

MrMojoRisin

ConsiderThis wrote: »

Is your argument that, because it's been judged to have been used by people for hundreds of years, then thats enough proof for you, and the length of time something has been around equated to proof that it works?

If so, then I can't agree.

For me, I need actual proof that something works. Dowsing has been tested numerous times where dowsers have claimed to be able to find objects or water. I have never seen a test where they have successfully done that, and have seen many tests where they have not been able to do it.

OF course, that doesn't mean they were never able to succeed and live up to their claims, as chance plays some part, and I have never seen a test where any dowser was able to demonstrate that he or she was able live up to their claims beyond what was expected by chance.

I am a sceptic and require proof, which is the only intelligent position to hold. If you want to believe it works, then hold that belief and cherish it. But don't be fooled into thinking that belief means its true.

Yeah like the Church murdered people for stupid reasons in the Middle Ages for years and years,but does that mean it was proven to be a good thing and should be done nowadays as well?? No

Dowsing rods are just bits of metal or wood that people enjoy holding in their hands