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Dowsing rods, your opinions

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    #32
    johnsix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭johnsix


    An Ri rua wrote: »
    Despite what others here would have you believe, dowsing is moving towards being an organised body of knowledge based around agreed methodologies as to how its done (but not how it works. As with 'real science', even how stuff works sometimes changes and is accpeted. Research Einstein).
    When Einstein presented his theory he backed it up with logic and math and was later confirmed with evidence.
    An Ri rua wrote: »
    Please google 'Letter to Robin' and you will get a pdf that explains how to programme your dowsing method to give the correct responses through the ideometer effect (deviceless dowsing may not always require the ideometer effect to be a factor at all). It would where one uses one's body or hands. It wouldn't where one uses an imaginary pendulum for instance.
    I being to wonder if you know how the ideomotor effect actually works
    An Ri rua wrote: »
    Much of the mineral wealth until at the start of the industrial revolution was found by mineral dowsers. Google DE RE METALICA.
    Can you quote your source for this?


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    #33
    ???
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭???


    Please respond to my previous comments. This 'RANT' is allowed in this thread because the title is 'Dowsing Rods, your opinions'. Check the charter, if it asks for our opinions or evidence and the like we are allowed be sceptical.

    An Ri rua wrote: »
    They can reverse or change completely. This accounts for many of the mistakes of amateur dowsers, which the sceptics naturally latch onto.

    Ad homenin.
    Despite what others here (who should be posting on the sceptic's sub-forum and not here)

    No we shouldn't. Are you just using that to avoid our points?
    would have you believe, dowsing (not dousing, which is more related to Holy Water and theory-based Buffy fans) is moving towards being an organised body of knowledge based around agreed methodologies as to how its done (but not how it works.

    Strawman. Did we say dowsing isn't an organised body of work? I dissagreed with your statement that it's well respected.
    As with 'real science', even how stuff works sometimes changes and is accpeted. Research Einstein).

    Can one pseudoscience debate happen without the pseudoscientists comparing themselves to Einstein or Gallileo? And of course science changes and adapts. The whole point of science is that is a continuous;y evolving body of knowledge. It's a strength, not a weekness of it. Also, it's science, not 'real science'. There is science and pseudoscience. One is an accepted body of work the other....
    Much of the mineral wealth until at the start of the industrial revolution was found by mineral dowsers. Google DE RE METALICA.

    Googled it. No mention of dowsing in the wikipedia article.
    Can the sceptics please take their RANT up on the correct forum?

    Dodging again?



    Please respond to my previous post without dodging the issues.


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    #34
    lilRedSmurf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 170 ✭✭lilRedSmurf


    Stoner wrote: »
    I'm open to rods being used to find water as it has been done for years and I can put some sort to theory behind it, using them for all the other things they are used for though, I dont know.

    lilRedSmurf are you saying that the rods are in some way linked to the EMF flieds (as I expect that they might be as a working theory), nice post BTW

    It's people using them on paranormal investigations, or asking them questions etc that I have an issue with

    Cheers!

    Ok here's the general train of thought you'll find in the books from the original big boys in dowsing... Since almost everything creates an EM field and the rods/pendulum simply amplify the body's reaction to the EM fields that we come in contact with everyday you can look for almost anything.

    You can also use samples when dowsing. The Mermet pendulum is hollow and made of an alloy that is not really found in nature so you can put a sample (potable water/minerals/etc.) in it and use that as your reference point. You can use the same principle with the rods by holding a sample in your hand with them.
    You can have all kinds of problems if you're not careful here though. For instance if you have a gold coin as your sample, beginners and even the best of us sometimes end up finding every bottle cap or flat disk shaped object in the area.

    I've made rods for plumbers and electrician friends of mine so they can find leaky pipes and wiring etc. and they swear by them now, so dowsing can very practically be applied to everyday problems.

    As far as asking questions about the future goes, dowsing is a form of divination and if not used with some common sense is as subjective as the person asking the question. And they can only account for the factors present at the point in time when the question is asked. Answers change given time and changing circumstance. And asking anything about something as emotionally charged as your own love life is just asking for trouble because you'll end up with the answers you want rather then what may be true.

    Where paranormal investigation is concerned I know some good dowsers can pick up hotspots of activity. The theory goes that entities are a form of energy and as such emit energy and you can pick that up and amplify it with the rods or pendulum.

    There's a great book by Abbe Mermet called "The Principles and Practice of Radiesthesia". Its pretty technical but he's widely regarded as the father of modern dowsing and its where i send beginners with more technical questions about the in's and out's of how it all supposedly works.


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    #35
    ???
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭???


    I nearly cry every time I see physics being abused so badly.

    Firstly, electromagnetic fields are created by charged particles. The electric field by static charged particles and the magnetic field by moving current. Naturaly occuring emfs are tiny things and all around us. The air around us produces a greater emf, due to alpha, beta and gamma emmissions from the ground, than our bodies do. Water's emf is negligible compared to the air around it.

    Secondly, we cannot naturally detect emfs. It just doesn't happen. People who claim to have em sensitivity have been tested in double blinded trials to see if they could detect whether they were being expossed to an emf. They couldn't. While the trial was designed to investigate the viability of an em sensitivity syndrome, the test demonstrates that humans cannot even detect if they are being expossed to an emf, let alone differentiate the emf of water with that of the air arround it.


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    #36
    johnsix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭johnsix


    ??? wrote: »
    I nearly cry every time I see physics being abused so badly.

    Firstly, electromagnetic fields are created by charged particles. The electric field by static charged particles and the magnetic field by moving current. Naturaly occuring emfs are tiny things and all around us. The air around us produces a greater emf, due to alpha, beta and gamma emmissions from the ground, than our bodies do. Water's emf is negligible compared to the air around it.

    Secondly, we cannot naturally detect emfs. It just doesn't happen. People who claim to have em sensitivity have been tested in double blinded trials to see if they could detect whether they were being expossed to an emf. They couldn't. While the trial was designed to investigate the viability of an em sensitivity syndrome, the test demonstrates that humans cannot even detect if they are being expossed to an emf, let alone differentiate the emf of water with that of the air arround it.
    I'm going to get in before the believers and say: It's quantum mechanics!


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    #37
    ???
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭???


    Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! I was waiting for that!!! We've had quantum and Einstein. Only Gallileo and Hitler are left to be brought up now.


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    #38
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    An Ri rua wrote: »
    Despite what others here (who should be posting on the sceptic's sub-forum and not here) would have you believe,
    I have created a thread in that forum here.


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    #39
    blue42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭blue42


    a few years i worked in dublin city counsel...drains dept, and i can tell you the use very often.


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    #40
    jawlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 384 ✭✭jawlie


    See this youtube link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOsCnX-TKIY and make up your own minds about dowsing....I think dowsers are well meaning people, but its nonsense.


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    #41
    iamhunted
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    dowsing obviously cant work because theres people who think it cant work.

    in the real world though, when I needed a well a dowser sorted out a spot in the garden for me handy enough. a fresh spring no less, and this from walking around with some rods. obviously thats impossible to do so I just imagined it.

    silly though, I should have told them that if one dig anywhere long enough you'll hit a nice fresh collection of drinkable water. shoulda sent him on to the sceptics forum as he obviousl7y shouldnt be able to do such things as dowsing since, well ... it cant be done really. apparently . i know this because some people on the internet insist these things cant happen and who am I to argue eh!. :rolleyes:


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    #42
    mossieh
    Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭mossieh


    An Ri rua wrote: »
    Just so you know Mossieh, for future reference, not all water is drinkable by humans.

    Other than frozen , can you name me a type of water that is not drinkable?
    An Ri rua wrote: »
    I would presume the poster was seeking drinking water and I can assure you that unless a dowser finds drinking water, (s)he admits defeat.

    Let me get this straight, if they don't succeed, they admit defeat? That's big of them.
    An Ri rua wrote: »
    Of course they DO find what they seek.
    Just so you know....

    What they seek is money so I guess you're right there.


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    #43
    artieanna
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,139 ✭✭✭artieanna


    we got a local fella to dowse the farm land and marked each place where he said there was veins of waters suitable for a well. He could tell us the depth and strength of the spring too.:eek:

    We dug three of these wells and he was spot on every time.

    We couldn't fault it anyway....


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    #44
    mossieh
    Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭mossieh


    artieanna wrote: »
    we got a local fella to dowse the farm land and marked each place where he said there was veins of waters suitable for a well. He could tell us the depth and strength of the spring too.:eek:

    We dug three of these wells and he was spot on every time.

    We couldn't fault it anyway....

    Not being smart Artieanna, but what was the variance in depth between those wells? Very little, I'd say. Knowing the depth of the water table in a particular location (not difficult to work out) means that he could have picked out twenty spots where you could have drilled and hit water, he'd also have been able to predict the depth.


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    #45
    artieanna
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,139 ✭✭✭artieanna


    Well how come when we dug one well for cattle he said the spring was slow and wasen't great but would be enough to keep the cattle going in winter as long as the water wasn't ran for long. He was spot on cos if we run the tap long using alot of water it runs out and we have to leave it to fill and prime the pump. The depths were twelve foot for one, eighteen feet for slow one and about fourteen for two more.

    The only pity about it was he couldn't tell the quality of the water one spring was unusable because of iron deposits.

    If he could pick one of twenty spots how come he hit it right each time over a large land area???

    the wells are to be dug he said where there is a strong flow usually where veins of water cross each other.

    There is land few miles where there are no springs on the land and people have to carry water from elsewhere to their cattle. One fella got water by drilling down something like 200ft, dunno if a diviner had checked it first.

    It worked for us anyway.


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    #46
    CodeMonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭CodeMonkey


    artieanna wrote: »
    If he could pick one of twenty spots how come he hit it right each time over a large land area???
    There are probably subtle signs around the area like what type of soil and vegetation around the area that someone doing this long enough could sub-consciously pick up on and pick the right spot.

    And if you have been doing it long enough you'd know how these wells behave and so what he said about the water running out shouldn't be a surprise.

    Being a local fella like you said, I'd expect him to know where to dig for water especially if he's done a lot of dowsing before. His "believe" in his own "gift" just gives him the confidence to say dig here. I'd like to see how well he does in an area where he's not familiar with the soil, vegetation, knowledge of other springs and wells. I'd like to see him do the double blinded test.


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    #47
    iamhunted
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    or maybe he found them through dowsing?


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    #48
    CodeMonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭CodeMonkey


    iamhunted wrote: »
    or maybe he found them through dowsing?
    Or maybe the water fairy told him where to dig.


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    #49
    iamhunted
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    hahaha - you'd never know ....


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    #50
    foxshooter243
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭foxshooter243


    I browse this forum folks but this would be my first post on it, back in 1973 my father decided to sink a well in our rather large garden, so the services of a local dowser were employed and within 15 minutes he pointed out the spot at which to sink the well- the well was dug to 20 feet and hey presto there was plenty of water, the thing is that in 1976
    i think it was we had a very good summer with the result that everyone in the place had no water, there was only one spring in the area that continued to flow ,and our well never emptied..thats my only dealings with a dowser.


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    #51
    jojo1981
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭jojo1981


    can any one tell me were i could get some of these gadgets im living in Dublin. Thanks
    sensitive_soul wrote: »
    I haven't posted on here in ages.

    Bought ALOT of stuff on Toms Gadgets this year but most recently I just bought a pair of dowsing rods from them. I dont fully believe in the theory that they direct you to energy.... personally, my theory is that you make involuntary movements subconsciously which moves the rods, but we shall see...

    Anyone have any experiences or theories they wanna share?


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    #52
    lilRedSmurf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 170 ✭✭lilRedSmurf


    jojo1981 wrote: »
    can any one tell me were i could get some of these gadgets im living in Dublin. Thanks

    Before you go spending just wanted to let you know that dowsing rods are easy to make yourself. Just get 2 matching coat hangers with no kinks in the wire. Cut at one end of the long middle piece and then cut at the hook on remaining attached short end. You end up with an L shaped piece of wire when you straighten them out a little. Cut both hangers to match in length and you've got yourself a set of dowsing angle rods.

    Pendulums can be made with a nice piece of crystal, wood, brass or glass about a half ounce(10grams) in weight. Just hang whatever you decide to use on a piece of string or chain about a foot long. Most alternative shops stock crystal pendulums these days too.

    The best book out there for a beginner IMHO is one by Tom Graves called "Dowsing : Techniques and Applications. There's a similar one by the same author called "The Diviners Handbook; A Guide to the Techniques and Applications of Dowsing", its a later print but pretty much the same book so its just as good if you can find it. There are usually plenty on amazon.


    Happy Dowsing!


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    #53
    jojo1981
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭jojo1981


    Cheers 4 taking the time to explain all that, can I ask u one more thing though, I am new to this site & I dont know how to start a thread or even answer to other one's all I can do is multi quote or pm, how do u just write something that involves everyone not just one person like I am now writing to you..,
    Thanks


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    #54
    An Ri rua
    Registered Users Posts: 4,485 ✭✭✭An Ri rua


    johnsix wrote: »
    When Einstein presented his theory he backed it up with logic and math and was later confirmed with evidence.


    I being to wonder if you know how the ideomotor effect actually works

    Can you quote your source for this?

    De re metallica. Not only can you not spell (being) but you also cannot read my previous post. Take off the sceptic's clouded glasses, my little friend. The ideometer effect is rather simple. I understand it perfectly well, from a fully grounded scientific viewpoint. It's description points simply to the fact that the rods / pendulum are an amplifying device, an aerial if you will, resonating minute muscle twitches . But amplifying what? Most dowsers accept the ideometer effect. Its never been the issue at all? Are you still stuck on that minor point?

    It is startling to find such resistance to dowsing. If its not for you, no big deal. And p.s. Einstein's 'proof' as you call it is about as substantial as most dowsing theories and has long since been 'disproved' by quantum theorists. And so the saga rolls on. Of course, dowsing and many other phenomenon are difficult to pin down within the context of current science. But it is through mavericks and intuitive input into scientific arena that advances are always made.

    You should open your mind a little. The worst that can happen is that you find what doesn't work or doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Yes, double-blind experiments are ideal but even without that comfort zone, its obvious through many psi experiments, that SOMETHING is afoot, non-fraud mind you, and warrants further research. Galileo was almost executed for his theories and proclamations. Marconi's friends tried to have him committed when he said he could transfer voices across the 'ether', as they called it. The MDs who suggested a fibre-rich diet in the 1920's were pariahs of their profession and were only seen in a better light recently. It cannot hurt to explore dowsing's results. How it works is usually of little or no interest to dowsers or their benefactors such as Lilly Pharmaceuticals, you will find. Its much more important THAT it works. Not scientific, but practical and of commercial value it seems.

    If someone says that fairies are telling them things, of course that's something that sceptics should jump to attention to. But if exploration companies, Russian state, swiss quarters and other eminent bodies such as UK water authorities actually 'employ' dowsers, then some slack must be given and an effort made to accept that something is afoot. Difficult to identify it but most definitely there is some knowledge and awareness capacity that competent dowsers ably demonstrate in commercial real-world conditions. Lab conditions are not such (not a cop-out, dowsing must be sincerely requested, that's historically anecdoted among sceptics over 3 centuries, some who 'converted'). Get some reading into you. ;)


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    #55
    An Ri rua
    Registered Users Posts: 4,485 ✭✭✭An Ri rua


    foxshooter243 wrote: »
    I browse this forum folks but this would be my first post on it, back in 1973 my father decided to sink a well in our rather large garden, so the services of a local dowser were employed and within 15 minutes he pointed out the spot at which to sink the well- the well was dug to 20 feet and hey presto there was plenty of water, the thing is that in 1976
    i think it was we had a very good summer with the result that everyone in the place had no water, there was only one spring in the area that continued to flow ,and our well never emptied..thats my only dealings with a dowser.

    Well said, Foxshooter (hope the name's only a joke?)

    The usual cry levelled at dowsers is that of course there is water anywhere you choose to drop a well in Ireland. Not so.

    A dowser will be required to pick a spot that has potable water and in our vexatious modern times that will include non-bug infected water also. That is the task of a dowser. Drinking water at set amount flow, or gold at set extraction rate or oil at set extraction rate etc. Otherwise, companies would not hire them. yes, there are many amateur dowsers, just as there were many cowboy builders in the last decade. That does not mean that there are not craftspeople in both trades.

    UK water companies are using more and more dowsing services now. Its there for the googlers.


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    #56
    An Ri rua
    Registered Users Posts: 4,485 ✭✭✭An Ri rua


    CodeMonkey wrote: »

    Being a local fella like you said, I'd expect him to know where to dig for water especially if he's done a lot of dowsing before. His "believe" in his own "gift" just gives him the confidence to say dig here. I'd like to see how well he does in an area where he's not familiar with the soil, vegetation, knowledge of other springs and wells. I'd like to see him do the double blinded test.

    Yes, sometimes very experienced and commercially popular dowsers will make mistakes, based on pre-conceptions about a landscape. See here for an example of that.


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    #57
    An Ri rua
    Registered Users Posts: 4,485 ✭✭✭An Ri rua


    I searched for Roche Pharmaceuticals and dowsing and this thread was top of the page. Gonna need links for that one mate!

    Strange, when I googled it, this came out on top as well and then this link was 3 down? Boards.ie is very well optimised but you do know how to use Google, don't you?

    http://books.google.ie/books?id=2TAZrJi2vC4C&pg=PR25&lpg=PR25&dq=roche+pharmaceuticals+dowsing&source=web&ots=diyk2cNbqN&sig=vkLxF5-w2_ReDQtjZmDKU3LWnR8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

    Enough said. Believe if you want. Or take your teenage rebellious angst somewhere else. Why such demonising of other belief systems? Take a chill pill and choose a better pseudonym while you're at it. Yours makes it seem as though you've got no answers for anything at all............


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    #58
    An Ri rua
    Registered Users Posts: 4,485 ✭✭✭An Ri rua


    I searched for Roche Pharmaceuticals and dowsing and this thread was top of the page. Gonna need links for that one mate!

    Strange, when I googled it, this came out on top as well and then this link was 3 down? Boards.ie is a very well optimised website; but you do know how to use Google now, don't you???

    http://books.google.ie/books?id=2TAZrJi2vC4C&pg=PR25&lpg=PR25&dq=roche+pharmaceuticals+dowsing&source=web&ots=diyk2cNbqN&sig=vkLxF5-w2_ReDQtjZmDKU3LWnR8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

    Enough said. Believe if you want. Or take your teenage rebellious angst somewhere else. Why such demonising of other belief systems? Take a chill pill and choose a better pseudonym while you're at it. Yours makes it seem as though you've got no answers for anything at all............


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    #59
    ConsiderThis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 230 ✭✭ConsiderThis


    There are a number of threads here which challenge beliefs in many things. Homoeopathy, Dowsing, God, Reiki, Aromatherapy etc etc. It's usually not possible to challenge a belief and, usually, not necessary to have to prove something which works.

    So, for example, aspirin works. It has been proven in clinical trials to work and no one needs to believe it works as we know it works.

    Those who believe in such things as dowsing and homeopathy don't know they work, and thus have to resort to believing they work.

    The really interesting thing about belief is that no matter what evidence there is to show that dowsing or homeopathy or any of the alternative medicines don't "work", those who choose to believe it generally blithely ignore it and prefer to continue to believe in it rather than assess the evidence.


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    #60
    Nehaxak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭Nehaxak


    Hmm, dunno about that belief thing you're talking about. If you've tried it and it works for you, you physically feel the thing moving in your hands of it's own accord - that's the type of thing that would make you believe in it.


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    #61
    ConsiderThis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 230 ✭✭ConsiderThis


    Nehaxak wrote: »
    Hmm, dunno about that belief thing you're talking about. If you've tried it and it works for you, you physically feel the thing moving in your hands of it's own accord - that's the type of thing that would make you believe in it.

    It's fine to believe in something on the strength of one test, and anyone can choose to believe in anything they want to believe in.

    It's different to prove that something works, as opposed to that we want to believe it works, and that's where the problem is for dowsers or homoeopaths etc.

    When you go to turn on an electric light, you don't believe it is going to work. You know it's going to work and you can also explain why it is going to work.

    Belief is necessary where there is doubt that something might work. So we say we "believe" homoeopathy works or we "believe" dowsers can find water or whatever it is they are looking for.

    The more we look at the evidence for psychic phenemona, the weaker it becomes, and that's why those who like to say they "believe" in the various psychic phenemona and dowsing and homoeopathy resist examining the evidence for their beliefs and generally reply on anecdote, avoiding considering any evidence which might disagree with their views.

    The double blind trial is one of the crowning achievements of reasoning and of being able to claim beyond doubt that a claim is accurate, and maybe that's why the homoeopathic industry, and dowsers, avoid it.

    I've seen countless tests done with dowsers. At the outset the agree to a set of test conditions, and then when they can't find the water, they invariably search for reasons why it didn't work out as they had predicted. It seems their desire to want to believe it simply overrules any evidence to the contrary.


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