Dowsing rods, your opinions

sensitive_soul

I haven't posted on here in ages.

Bought ALOT of stuff on Toms Gadgets this year but most recently I just bought a pair of dowsing rods from them. I dont fully believe in the theory that they direct you to energy.... personally, my theory is that you make involuntary movements subconsciously which moves the rods, but we shall see...

Anyone have any experiences or theories they wanna share?

Steyr

My Opinion: Load of Bollix.

Stoner

If they work, I'd imagine that it would have something to do with electro magnetic fields caused by running water, or the swell of a natural source of water, i.e picking up on the movement of water and the energy it has. I don't think they would work over a stationary bath of water etc.

The fact that the old style used small branches goes against my theory though, the copper ones fit it better.

However the copper ones I saw recently were very free to spin on their handles, I found them hard to keep still to be honest, opening the whole thing up to their operation being almost a joke.

Crystals spinning on a string and free to spin lengths of copper etc are too susceptible to random movement and can be misinterpreted by the easily led who think that the random normal ambient conditions causing things to move , is in fact a paranormal experience. IMHO.

But I can still see a slight theory that would allow them to "work"

stevenmu

<Steyr banned>


I have tried a set before, I can't remember if they were copper or iron/steel but like Stoner they were free to move inside the handles which I felt made them move too easily. The one thing I'd add on that front was that there were some movements that I could definitely attribute to my own hands and the looseness of the rods, and some that I couldn't, but I couldn't be sure that they weren't also due to my own hand movements and the looseness of the rods.

I do agree that if they work, then the most likely explanation is that it's the user who actually detects and then their subconcious controls the rods.

There are some alternate possibilities though. Like Stoner mentioned electromagnetic fields could play some role. I think someone mentioned here before that running water underground can/may create a measurable electromagnetic field. I know certainly that running water can ionise air, which is why we feel like singing in the shower, the ions created by the running water make us happy . The problem is that as Stoner mentioned, wooden rods used to be used aswell.

Another possibility, albeit a very remote one, is that the rods could pick up on fluctuations in the earths gravity. The strength of gravity isn't constant across the earth, it varies depending on what lies underground, so it may be weaker at a point with a lot of water below. This would allow wooden as well as metal rods to work. The problem would be that I think the changes in gravity would be far far too small, they would be totally over shadowed by even the smallest of vibrations as we walk. Maybe someone who knows more can confirm or deny that ?


One more thing to add is that their use does seem to be quite common. I was stunned one day sitting on the bus looking out the window to see some council worker preparing to dig up a footpath, and one of them walknig around with a dowsing rod while another made notes, presumably trying to find pipes. I've since heard of this again anecdotally, and apparantly some building companies will use them on sites aswell.

sensitive_soul

Eh yeah.....I got them in the post today.....considering there's activity in my own house...they didnt impress me! Felt like a moron, walking about with two steel rods!

Havermeyer

Richard Dawkins set up an experiment to test if dowsing really worked. Basically, 6 buckets out of 36 (i think it was) had bottles of water and 30 had bottles of sand. The dowser nor the test supervisor knew which buckets had the sand in them and which had the water. The results were that each of the dowsers had done no better with their dowsing techniques than if they were just trying to guess where the bottles of water were. Yet they STILL believed that they could dowse and that something had gone wrong or the conditions on the day weren't good for them. I would keep an open mind if even a couple of them had done well, say 3 or 4 right. But not one of them managed to get more than 2. Some got one, and from what i recall i think one of them may have gotten none of them right.

In my opinion, it doesn't work. It failed scientific analysis. To believe in it would require blind faith, something I don't have too much faith in.

stevenmu

It was always my understanding that dowsing rods could be used to find large sources of water, but wouldn't be much use distinguishing between a bucket of water and a bucket of sand. Personally I'm not in the least surprised that the experiment failed, I'd never have thought it could possibly succeed in the first place.

On the one hand you might expect the people in question using the dowsing rods to know more about them then me, which would be a fair point of view, but on the other hand with theings like this there's generally no hard and fast rules available to discern exactly what is and isn't possible, many different people have many different ideas. That's a large peoblem with scientific investigation of the paranormal, often ideas that may seem similar can actually be radically different, and more often than not nomenclature is reused in confusing and incompatible ways. Ultimately all this experiment actually proves is that dowsing rods are not able to distinguish between buckets of water and buckets of sand.

Havermeyer

That's a large peoblem with scientific investigation of the paranormal

The problem is that it's always with the shady areas, like the paranormal and religion, that people just brush away the fact that nothing has been proven by science. If there's nothing to prove, you can't prove it. It's not there. People will have their beliefs and opinions, fair enough. But I need evidence to believe in something, and until I see it for myself I will remain a skeptic and a non believer.

Talliesin

Don't give a toss how it works. Handy when you want to know where to drop a well.

Havermeyer

Don't give a toss how it works. Handy when you want to know where to drop a well.

LOL

stevenmu

nummnutts wrote:

If there's nothing to prove, you can't prove it. It's not there.

Well it's equally true that just because you can't prove something is there, that doesn't mean that it's not actually there. Like many aspects of the paranoramal, the example above proves scientifically that dowsing rods do not work in a particular defined set of circumstances, but it does not prove that dowsing rods do not work at all.

Also if you have a link or reference to Dawkins' expermint I would like to see it, I've just noticed that you have made no mention of both the people involved in the experiment (i.e. were they capable of using dowsing rod correctly), and the exact methodology used (type of dowsing rods etc)

Havermeyer

It wasn't both people. There were a number of people, and they were ALL dowsers. They offered to take part in the experiment. These weren't just some randomers off the street asked to try and find the water. These were all self proclaimed dowsers.

It was part of a two part documentary Richard Dawkins did a few weeks ago on channel 4 called 'Enemies of Reason'. I can't remember if it was the first or second part, but both are worth a look. And, as far as I can remember they had different methods and NONE of them worked.

SkepticOne

Talliesin wrote:

Don't give a toss how it works. Handy when you want to know where to drop a well.

My theory on why dowsing appears to work is that is due to confirmational bias. When by chance a dowser hits ground water it is attributed to a succesful dowsing. When it fails, some excuse is made as to why it did not work on that occasion.

In the past, considering the amount of effort involved in sinking a well, it would be understandable if the likes of dowsers are employed to increase the percieved likelihood of hitting water.

AckwelFoley

Steyr wrote:

My Opinion: Load of Bollix.

Hahahahahahahaahahahaha!

lol, thanks fr the insight.


Im the worlds most skeptical person u are likely to meet.

As far as water diviners go, i once got a water diviner to search for a well on my property. Now ppl will say which is true that you will find water anywhere no matter where it is, all that is up for question is how deep. I got an old guy with an ash tree twig to divine my site. After about 20 min he picked a spot and said here. Drill 280 - 290 ft and u get a real good supply.

This was 100% accurate. Have him 50 quid.

tj-music.com

sensitive_soul wrote:

most recently I just bought a pair of dowsing rods from them.

I recently did a two day workshop on a farm in Devon and we worked with dowsing rods. They worked well for some people and not as good for others. Hard to say.

jawlie

I'm curious as to why you have bought these rods if you don't believe in the process of dousing.

As far as I know, some dousers believe the rods should swing "outwards", others believe they should swing "inwards" and yet more believe they should "cross", to indicate the presence of water.

Any trials that have taken place with those who claim to be able to do this have produced results such that the same douser doesn't find water a the same spot twice in the same field. A number of dousers, when asked to find water in the same field, all indicated it was to be found in different places.

Paranormal or the uri gellar effect?

Hagar

I can dowse water. I have now idea how or why. I've never bought any fancy kits, just used two bent welding rods stuck into empty biro tubes as handles. The rods cross in the presence of water. It's not a skill I have any use for. I just tried it out for a laugh with a few guys, one of whom claimed to be able to do it, but he couldn't do it well. I can trace the path of uderground streams etc by zig-zagging across a site and building up a "reaction" map. Most people who haven't seen it done scoff at the idea. I would too except I can do it. It's a very puzzling talent / ability.

dollydishmop

My OH is a water dowser...and he's never got it wrong yet.

He doesn't need *special* rods, bent coat hangers work just as well for him.

Just one of those things I guess, you either have it or you don't...I don't think its something that can be taught.

mossieh

snyper wrote:

Hahahahahahahaahahahaha!

lol, thanks fr the insight.


Im the worlds most skeptical person u are likely to meet.

As far as water diviners go, i once got a water diviner to search for a well on my property. Now ppl will say which is true that you will find water anywhere no matter where it is, all that is up for question is how deep. I got an old guy with an ash tree twig to divine my site. After about 20 min he picked a spot and said here. Drill 280 - 290 ft and u get a real good supply.

This was 100% accurate. Have him 50 quid.

There are very few places in this country where you can drill 300 feet into the ground without hitting the water table on the way. Just so you know.

jawlie

I guess like so many paranormal phenomenon, water dousing is a matter of belief. Some people swear by homoeopathy, some by astrology, others claim medals have miraculous powers while other believe in acupuncture, that the world is going to end on dates long gone, or that they have been abducted by little green men in spaceships or that the Phillipine healers really could perform operations without anaesthetic.

The only sensible course of action is to be sceptical of beliefs which seem incredible, and look for proof. Anecdotal proof is not proof and, for example, if someone with a cold claims a cure from homoeopathy or acupuncture, isn't it a more reasonable explanation that they would have got better in the way that millions do every year, with no intervention at all?

Personally, I am fascinated by paranormal or psychic phenomenon, and have long looked for evidence of its existence, but so far any tests I have seen have not produced proof.

An Ri rua

Steyr wrote: »

My Opinion: Load of Bollix.

Ah Steyr, give it a rest would ya? there's ample proof worldwide of military, industrial and government use of dowsing. British Army Engineers Corp, Roche Pharmaceuticals, US Marines in Vietnam..... etc etc.

Really, learn to use a browser and open your mind before using such foul language online about something that you clearly demonstrate that know absolutely nothing about.

An Ri rua

mossieh wrote: »

There are very few places in this country where you can drill 300 feet into the ground without hitting the water table on the way. Just so you know.

Just so you know Mossieh, for future reference, not all water is drinkable by humans. I would presume the poster was seeking drinking water and I can assure you that unless a dowser finds drinking water, (s)he admits defeat. Of course they DO find what they seek.

Just so you know....

6th

Can you post links to were these bodies officially say they use it?

Also, go easy on the lads the thread is almost a year old.

???

An Ri rua wrote: »

Ah Steyr, give it a rest would ya? there's ample proof worldwide of military, industrial and government use of dowsing. British Army Engineers Corp, Roche Pharmaceuticals, US Marines in Vietnam..... etc etc.

Really, learn to use a browser and open your mind before using such foul language online about something that you clearly demonstrate that know absolutely nothing about.

Fallacy. Argument from authority.
Wanna give some links anyway.


It's pretty much explained by the ideomoter effect and confirmation bias.

Give this a read for more.

lilRedSmurf

I teach workshops in dowsing and divination techniqes so I figure my two cents could make a little sense here...


The ability to dowse differs massively from person to person but it can come down to a lot of different factors. You can make rods give you the answer you think you should get. The ability to separate the ego from the subconscious is different from person to person. Also a MAJOR problem arises when you dont frame a question properly. Dowsing rods will react to just about anything if you give them free reign. But they are tools and should be used as such. Give them clear parameters and instruction and you can come up with some surprising results.

As someone mentioned here earlier, most theories pertaining to how dowsing works stem from our own subconscious ability to pick up on EM fields and the rods and pendulum are simply used to amplify the subconscious movement of the hands in reaction to these fields. Stretching from that theory the basis for a lot of spiritual dowsing work comes from the school of thought that all people have the ability to tap into their higher consciousness, some people say the acasic field or library of all knowledge. Depends on what you believe really but its something I've grown up using so i know it works for me.

I still use bent coat hangers! They've always given me the best results and its damn cheap too! I find the more elaborate carved handle etc. type are just unnecesary and counter productive because the are often weighted terribly and are far too sensitive to random EMF interferrence. Beginners get lost in the interference and often get so caught up in trying to figure out what the interference is that the question that they are asking gets lost and without clear focus on the question you're gonna get nowhere. A lot of practice is involved too. It can take years to get you skills honed properly and beginners often get disheartened and stop using them.

Oh and the wooden ones work on the principle that they are in a constant state of tension when held properly. This state of tension amplifies the reaction in the hands when you come in contact with whatever it is you're looking for. They're called spring rods or y rods. Often made from whalebone, thin metal strips or springy young branches of wood. (Not a fan myself... i get better directionality from angle rods and if you're not paying full attention and have dont quick hands getting hit in the face... and if you're a dude the nuts... every time you get big positive or negative reaction is not quite my cup of tea.:D) Works beautifully for some but not for others.


I'm open to any questions if anyone has some.

An Ri rua

??? wrote: »

Fallacy. Argument from authority.
Wanna give some links anyway.


It's pretty much explained by the ideomoter effect and confirmation bias.

Give this a read for more.

That's HOW dowsing instruments move, not how dowsing works. Google "British army", or US Marines, dowsing & falklands or Abbe Mermet and while you are at it, have a think as to how most substantial mineral deposits were uncovered before modern instruments and knowledge of geology etc. Also, cancer houses in Germany. Google it please, poster ??? I don't have time tonight to link for you.

I really don't understand why this forum doesn't also have a sceptic sub-forum for those who still believe in a flat earth. Or creationists for that matter. Or Santa or the tooth fairy. Do we really need to know the cause to believe in clearly correlated effects? Roche Pharmaceuticals say they don't. And they would seem to be scientific in general approach to their work (I really hope so, for the sake of their clients). Oops, did I reference a fact from an authority again? Is that a fallacy? I do apologise for my fallacious outburst, if that's how its phrased ;-) They should be a tad more careful in being quoted on such things all across the web and in dowsing books so.

So I hope we have clarified that the ideometer effect is clearly the WHAT aspect, not the HOW aspect. Its an amplifier, an aerial effect. But where does the "successful dowser" get their information? That is the question. We can all choose to believe or disbelieve. But for my money, the earth is round and many dowsers are as skilled as we read.

Could the moderator explore the possibility of having a sceptic sub-forum for every forum on Boards? Just in case there are many among us who have trouble with other areas of life that aren't 100% explained within our neat constructs?

Sorry to go on, but I'm not sure why a respected body of knowledge like dowsing, which admittedly has divergent views at the edges, keeps having to put up with nonsensical, half-baked, unresearched attacks. James Randi has been counter-challenged by many and not taken up the offer. Again, google it. Its all there. Lets not duplicate stuff here. Use the master web-crawler in our heads and make our own minds up. If its not for you, fine. But don't knock it when you only have read about it from a distance. That's not ethical at all

SkepticOne

An Ri rua wrote: »

I really don't understand why this forum doesn't also have a sceptic sub-forum for those who still believe in a flat earth. Or creationists for that matter.

There is a skeptic's subforum here if you want to discuss dowsing a less subjective way.

???

An Ri rua wrote: »

That's HOW dowsing instruments move, not how dowsing works.

Then what's the mechanism of operation? All the decent trials have shown dowsing gets the same as chance...

Google "British army", or US Marines, dowsing & falklands or Abbe Mermet and while you are at it, have a think as to how most substantial mineral deposits were uncovered before modern instruments and knowledge of geology etc. Also, cancer houses in Germany. Google it please, poster ??? I don't have time tonight to link for you.

Mosts substantial mineral deposits were discovered by the surface evidence, not people waving sticks. In England their were large amounts of surface coal that was mined away. When the industrial revolution came round they found that by digging the sites of surface coal they got underground mines. And it seems the marines did douse in the 'nam. Interesting but what does it prove? That marines are as likelt to believe in dowsing as everyone else is all that I can see!

I really don't understand why this forum doesn't also have a sceptic sub-forum for those who still believe in a flat earth. Or creationists for that matter. Or Santa or the tooth fairy.

What are you ranting about?

Do we really need to know the cause to believe in clearly correlated effects?

They are not clearly correlated, in fact no good study shows they are.
And yes we do. Otherwise how do we know it's a real effect rather than statistical fluctuations, or just bad research?

Roche Pharmaceuticals say they don't. And they would seem to be scientific in general approach to their work (I really hope so, for the sake of their clients).

I searched for Roche Pharmaceuticals and dowsing and this thread was top of the page. Gonna need links for that one mate!

Oops, did I reference a fact from an authority again? Is that a fallacy? I do apologise for my fallacious outburst, if that's how its phrased ;-) They should be a tad more careful in being quoted on such things all across the web and in dowsing books so.

Without support? Yes it was fallacious.

So I hope we have clarified that the ideometer effect is clearly the WHAT aspect, not the HOW aspect. Its an amplifier, an aerial effect. But where does the "successful dowser" get their information? That is the question. We can all choose to believe or disbelieve.

I prefer the phrasing: We can all choose to blindly accept something that has no method of operation and no supporting evidence or we can think about it.

But for my money, the earth is round and many dowsers are as skilled as we read.

English?

Could the moderator explore the possibility of having a sceptic sub-forum for every forum on Boards?

Ehh... I think the Paranormal area of the boards needs one, why would Driving need one?

Just in case there are many among us who have trouble with other areas of life that aren't 100% explained within our neat constructs?

That is a straw man. Did anyone ever say science explains everything 100% and neatly? Quit your anti-science babble.

Sorry to go on, but I'm not sure why a respected body of knowledge like dowsing, which admittedly has divergent views at the edges,

Respected by who? Dowsers and homeopaths?

keeps having to put up with nonsensical, half-baked, unresearched attacks.

I've typed in clear English, considered it and researched my 'attack'. Wan to provide all this wonderful research?

James Randi has been counter-challenged by many and not taken up the offer. Again, google it. Its all there

.

Anyone's free to apply to the million dollar challenge through the correct procedures. All the ranting by people who fail to agree on a test procedure with Randi is just pure rubbish.

Lets not duplicate stuff here. Use the master web-crawler in our heads and make our own minds up. If its not for you, fine. But don't knock it when you only have read about it from a distance. That's not ethical at all

What are you talking about? How is it unethical to make up your mind on something by researching it?

johnsix

Which way are the rods meant to go when your hit water?
Cross each other or diverge?

An Ri rua

johnsix wrote: »

Which way are the rods meant to go when your hit water?
Cross each other or diverge?

Hi, they will go whichever way you have programmed your subsconscious to make them go. You must always check each time you start dowsing that your yes and No responses are the same as you understand them to be. They can reverse or change completely. This accounts for many of the mistakes of amateur dowsers, which the sceptics naturally latch onto.
Despite what others here (who should be posting on the sceptic's sub-forum and not here) would have you believe, dowsing (not dousing, which is more related to Holy Water and theory-based Buffy fans) is moving towards being an organised body of knowledge based around agreed methodologies as to how its done (but not how it works. As with 'real science', even how stuff works sometimes changes and is accpeted. Research Einstein). Please google 'Letter to Robin' and you will get a pdf that explains how to programme your dowsing method to give the correct responses through the ideometer effect (deviceless dowsing may not always require the ideometer effect to be a factor at all). It would where one uses one's body or hands. It wouldn't where one uses an imaginary pendulum for instance.

Much of the mineral wealth until at the start of the industrial revolution was found by mineral dowsers. Google DE RE METALICA.

Can the sceptics please take their RANT up on the correct forum?

Well worth a read are the forums on www.britishdowsers.org and also www.canadiandowsers.org

Stoner

lilRedSmurf wrote: »

I teach workshops in dowsing and divination techniqes so I figure my two cents could make a little sense here...

I'm open to any questions if anyone has some.

I'm open to rods being used to find water as it has been done for years and I can put some sort to theory behind it, using them for all the other things they are used for though, I dont know.

Its down to this with me, they look for and find the water and usually have an idea about how deep, therefore I assume that the magantic field of the running water or something can be picked up on, I'm not saying this is what happens, I just see it as a possible reason. therefore at the end of the experiment if the water is there at a certain debth and if its a running spring well then you have a result to be argued with.

Asking rods if there are spirits around though, is another issue IMHO

lilRedSmurf are you saying that the rods are in some way linked to the EMF flieds (as I expect that they might be as a working theory), nice post BTW

It's people using them on paranormal investigations, or asking them questions etc that I have an issue with