Do you consider the term 'throwing a paddy' to be a racist slur?

Ickle Magoo

Alanna wrote:

I am a regular poster on a UK forum and debate is raging about this term there atm.
Before I moved to the UK I never really heard this phrase for describing a tantrum so I suspect it originated in the UK. I was wondering what the opinion is on here? I suspect the origin of this term stems from the opinion that the Irish over in the UK had a history of fighting and being physical but I could be totally wrong. I can't find the origin of it anywhere, so does anyone here know where it comes from, or care?

I'm from Scotland & I'd never heard the expression until I read your post...is it an English expression? Now look at who's throwing racial slurs about!

Dave!

Never heard the expression, but I'm not offended at all

Fratton Fred

latenia wrote:

The English still think they're superior to the rest of the world and using these words is just another way to help delude themselves. One of the first things they assign to any race is a derogotary nickname-think of Kraut, Frog, Paki Paddy, Sweaty etc. I know of no other culture that does this to this extent.

Err, isn't a sweeping derogatory generalisation of an entire nation racist?

By the way, we are superior, get over it;)

Alanna

LOL over on that forum they are being all sanctimonious about how it has nothing to do with the Irish and how people can choose to be offended at anything. And then there are about a hundred of them piling in saying that their granddad is irish and he uses the term and various other weak defences. I have actually given up and am not arguing it because I can't 'prove' where it comes from, OED is the only source they will accept and you can't access that online.

Anyhow, life is too short to get het up, I know. I just think that it is more than likely that this term did originate as a slur on the Irish and that it is convenient for folk in the UK to 'forget' where it came from.

tallus

Fratton Fred wrote:

has no one thought how Bernhard must feel about the way people use his name for gods sake.

people should have more respect for a golfer of his calibre.

When he missed a six foot putt in the Ryder Cup years back he had the nickname "the six foot langer"

Fratton Fred

latenia wrote:

The English still think they're superior to the rest of the world and using these words is just another way to help delude themselves. One of the first things they assign to any race is a derogotary nickname-think of Kraut, Frog, Paki Paddy, Sweaty etc. I know of no other culture that does this to this extent.

do you not read After Hours very much.

Just see how much hatred is shown to Travellers, Roma, the Poles and anyone else who isn't Irish.

Then think again.

Ireland is a far more racist country than England.

Fratton Fred

r3nu4l wrote:

How am I being sensitive? I stated some facts and made a summation on how that reflects on the meaning of the phrase based on the reaction of the English people around me. Nothing more. How is that being sensitive to anything? I think you're drawing a conclusion that isn't there Fred.

As it happens, the girl did not mean to be offensive so I wasn't offended but it does show that while the phrase may be bandied about a lot without much thought...English people in general DO understand what it means in relation to Irish people and do associate it with Irish people.

If I was sensitive to everything the English say and do I either wouldn't be living in Engerland or I'd have about a million posts here about it

Actually, reading that again, you are right, I think the people around you should be less sensitive.

I will gaurantee they did not associate the term with the Irish, I never have (But it's not a phrase I use very often) but their reaction was probably more hurtful than the phrase.

Alanna

Just found this
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/paddy_2?view=uk

Fratton Fred

Fratton Fred wrote:

do you not read After Hours very much.

Just see how much hatred is shown to Travellers, Roma, the Poles and anyone else who isn't Irish.

Then think again.

Ireland is a far more racist country than England.

I thought the majority of Travellers in Ireland were Irish?

Hagar

I've only ever heard the phrase on English TV, never in real life.

I don't think your average English guy is insensitive enough to cause offence bu using the phrase deliberately in front of an Irish person , but the fact that he would refrain from using the phrase is an acknowledgement of it racist overtones.

bill_ashmount

Fratton Fred wrote:

Ireland is a far more racist country than England.

:rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote:

It's not hard to believe that any negative stereotype, coming from the English, containing the word "Paddy", is a slur against the Irish race.

We are not your michievious tantrum throwing children, and we never were. Get over it.

This Article might be worth a read.

Did you notice that in that article, the author conveniently slips between English and British to avoid criticising the Welsh (It's written for a Welsh magazine).

One author's impression does not make a fact based arguement. Sure there used to be "No Black, No Irish" signs up in boarding houses, but do you really think that in Ireland today, if they could get away with putting up "No Poes, No Chinese" sign they would.

Do not criticise the spec in your neighbours eye, when you cannot see the moat in your own,

Fratton Fred

bill_ashmount wrote:

:rolleyes:

care to deny it?

latenia

Fratton Fred wrote:

do you not read After Hours very much.

Just see how much hatred is shown to Travellers, Roma, the Poles and anyone else who isn't Irish.

Then think again.

Ireland is a far more racist country than England.

Travellers are Irish; I've never heard any 'hatred' of Poles here and Roma are unpopular everywhere. In fact, many Eastern Europeans come here ahead of the UK because we are more welcoming. There is some disquiet over immigration and asylum seekers here but it's generally confined to a minority. Remember-the population of Ireland has increased by about 15% with foreigners in the last few years-the equivalent percentage increase in the UK would be about 8 million people. There are always a backward few who whinge louder than the majority but in general I would say the integration here has been remarkably smooth.

Contrast this with the hysterics in the mainstream British press. The 2 best selling papers in the UK are the Daily Mail and the Sun-they reflect the opinions of the masses. Only last week the Sun used the word 'Paki' in a headline.

We have no equivalent of the BNP in this country (well if we do it's 2 men and a dog, not elected officials.)

We do not start wars out of some deeply ingrained superiority complex.

I understand how you might get defensive about this but I'm afraid it's true. Before I would have rejected criticism of the English as outdated remnants of Irish republicanism and been embarassed by it. As I got older and more aware of the world and society I saw the huge flaws in Britain and in particular the English .

Exit

Fratton Fred wrote:

do you really think that in Ireland today, if they could get away with putting up "No Poes, No Chinese" sign they would.

Edgar Allen would be rolling in his grave.

Hagar

Fratton Fred wrote:

Did you notice that in that article, the author conveniently slips between English and British to avoid criticising the Welsh (It's written for a Welsh magazine).

He did mention the phrase "welshing on a bet" so I think the article in not entirely biased.

Fratton Fred wrote:

One author's impression does not make a fact based arguement. Sure there used to be "No Black, No Irish" signs up in boarding houses, but do you really think that in Ireland today, if they could get away with putting up "No Poes, No Chinese" sign they would.

Indeed it does not, you are quite correct. It does show that at least one author has done reseach and believes that there might be some truth to the premise that the phrase may be racist in origin.
Before I embrace your assumption that Irish boarding houses would put up such signs if they could I would ask you to justify the original signs in England.

The guy

Before this thread I never heard of it before.

Also, I don't find it offensive at all or a racist slur.

axer

It is a racist slur which I am not offended by. I do get a strong impression by the majority of English people I meet that the nation suffers from a superiority complex.

Terry

Fratton Fred wrote:

R3nual wrote:

Like the OP, I had never heard this term until moving to the UK. In fact I was here over a year before I heard it. A girl at work last February said it (a month after I started my current job). She immediately looked at me and threw her hand over her mouth in shock at her faux pas and then apologised.

The fact that everyone else who was there started to squirm and look red-faced tells me that the English know exactly what it means and use it in a derogatory manner in much the same way as they use 'the N-word' in private but not in public...

Therefore I view it as racist.

I think you need to be a little bit less sensitive.

Fratton Fred wrote:

Err, isn't a sweeping derogatory generalisation of an entire nation racist?

I think you need to be a little less sensitive.

Seems to me that all was well and good until the English were put under scrutiny.

If what was experienced by r3nu4l is any indication, then it seems some English people do use it and see it as a derogatory term in reference to Irish people.

Terry

axer wrote:

It is a racist slur which I am not offended by. I do get a strong impression by the majority of English people I meet that the nation suffers from a superiority complex.

Indeed.
I have an English friend who is convinced that the English (not british, Scottish or Welsh (He refers to Wales as "The insignificant country). Specifically the English) brought civilisation to the entire world and we would all still be living in mud huts were it not for them.
A similar view was expressed here a week or so ago by one of our esteemed users, albeit in a less obvious way.

eoin5

I think its more just slagging than racism. A bit like someone from Dublin making a Kerry man joke. Maybe someone has mentioned this before but it might be relating a tantrum to Irish dancing and nothing got to do with the Irish temper.

mike65

dublin slang

I have an English friend who is convinced that the English (not british, Scottish or Welsh (He refers to Wales as "The insignificant country). Specifically the English) brought civilisation to the entire world and we would all still be living in mud huts were it not for them.

Clearly thats nonsense, but you would be speaking French and shrugging in that insolent fashion. Which may be worse.

When someone does'nt know the origin of "kraut" one can only fear for the future of this country.

Anyways what about the Dutch? If there's a nation to feel offended its them - Dutch treat, Dutch auction, Dutch courage and there's proberly a few more.

Maybe Unkel can help

bill_ashmount

Fratton Fred wrote:

care to deny it?

I don't need to deny it. You come out with another random statement, which in any event can't be quantified. I'm going to leave you alone now, because your obviously not the most intelligent person out there.

Even if it was true, it would be funny coming from a person who hails from one of the most murderous nations that ever existed.

biko

If it weren't for the Russians we'd all be speaking German.

mike65

bill_ashmount wrote:

I don't need to deny it. You come out with another random statement, which in any event can't be quantified. I'm going to leave you alone now, because your obviously not the most intelligent person out there.

Even if it was true, it would be funny coming from a person who hails from one of the most murderous nations that ever existed.

Ohhhh someone to wind up.

bill_ashmount you'll like this read the entry for 28 Saturday I suggest sending a gunboat to Auckland.

biko, and if it was'nt for the USA we'd all be speaking Russian!

Mike.

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote:

I've only ever heard the phrase on English TV, never in real life.

I don't think your average English guy is insensitive enough to cause offence bu using the phrase deliberately in front of an Irish person , but the fact that he would refrain from using the phrase is an acknowledgement of it racist overtones.

I spoke to my wife about this, she lived with me in England for 7 years and heard the phrase a lot. When people used it and made no apologies she just presumed it had nothing to do with the irish and even started using it herself.

I had never conected to the Irish and I'm sure many other people do not.

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote:

He did mention the phrase "welshing on a bet" so I think the article in not entirely biased.

Indeed it does not, you are quite correct. It does show that at least one author has done reseach and believes that there might be some truth to the premise that the phrase may be racist in origin.
Before I embrace your assumption that Irish boarding houses would put up such signs if they could I would ask you to justify the original signs in England.

there is no justification, but

Latenia wrote:

I've never heard any 'hatred' of Poles here and Roma are unpopular everywhere. In fact, many Eastern Europeans come here ahead of the UK because we are more welcoming. There is some disquiet over immigration and asylum seekers here but it's generally confined to a minority. Remember-the population of Ireland has increased by about 15% with foreigners in the last few years-the equivalent percentage increase in the UK would be about 8 million people. There are always a backward few who whinge louder than the majority but in general I would say the integration here has been remarkably smooth.

is pretty much the same as 1950s/60 Britain. Unused to immigration and a fear of the unknown.

Fratton Fred

latenia wrote:

Travellers are Irish; I've never heard any 'hatred' of Poles here and Roma are unpopular everywhere. In fact, many Eastern Europeans come here ahead of the UK because we are more welcoming. There is some disquiet over immigration and asylum seekers here but it's generally confined to a minority. Remember-the population of Ireland has increased by about 15% with foreigners in the last few years-the equivalent percentage increase in the UK would be about 8 million people. There are always a backward few who whinge louder than the majority but in general I would say the integration here has been remarkably smooth.

I've already covered most of this, there was no difference in the UK, it is a fear of the unknown and outsiders.

latenia wrote:

Contrast this with the hysterics in the mainstream British press. The 2 best selling papers in the UK are the Daily Mail and the Sun-they reflect the opinions of the masses. Only last week the Sun used the word 'Paki' in a headline.

please do not judge an entire country by the tabloids. Try reading a few of the posts on these boards, there are many who are convinced of an attack here from Muslims.

latenia wrote:

We have no equivalent of the BNP in this country (well if we do it's 2 men and a dog, not elected officials.)

you do and yes, they are. England however does not elect terrorists to the house of commons, therefore can we presume that the whole of Ireland support the IRA? no? thought not.

latenia wrote:

We do not start wars out of some deeply ingrained superiority complex.

I understand how you might get defensive about this but I'm afraid it's true. Before I would have rejected criticism of the English as outdated remnants of Irish republicanism and been embarassed by it. As I got older and more aware of the world and society I saw the huge flaws in Britain and in particular the English .

fine, the only problem I have, is that in Ireland one story, or one incident is read, blown out of all proportion and used as yet another reason why the English are bad people.

gilroyb

is pretty much the same as 1950s/60 Britain. Unused to immigration and a fear of the unknown.

I'll be interested to see which major Irish politician gives an equivalent to the "Rivers of Blood" speech. A speech which was after all against a piece of anti discrimination law intended to support Commonwealth immigrants. It's a bit rich for Britain to have gone around the globe showing other countries how much better the British system was and then get upset when the locals in those countries start to turn up to see it for themselves.

you do and yes, they are. England however does not elect terrorists to the house of commons, therefore can we presume that the whole of Ireland support the IRA? no? thought not.

I'd say the UK has elected more terrorists to the house of commons than Ireland has to the Dail, the fact they chose to abstain is another matter. If you expand it out to all levels of government, within the UK there are definitely more terrorists in positions of power than there are in Ireland.



The point I'm trying to make is that point scoring is in the end fairly useless, it's always easy for someone to show that you're wrong. Wouldn't it be slightly more sensible to say that it doesn't matter who is the more racist, instead just try not to be racist at all?

The phrase "throwing a paddy" is quite likely a reference to the Irish, and even if it wasn't originally, with no other explanation it would likely be taken by Irish people as such a reference nowadays. I imagine people who use the phrase don't realise how it could be misconstrued, but that doesn't stop it from being racist. I've been living in the UK for a year now and haven't heard it, but I would think less of someone who I heard utter it.

Fratton Fred

gilroyb wrote:

The point I'm trying to make is that point scoring is in the end fairly useless, it's always easy for someone to show that you're wrong. Wouldn't it be slightly more sensible to say that it doesn't matter who is the more racist, instead just try not to be racist at all?

The phrase "throwing a paddy" is quite likely a reference to the Irish, and even if it wasn't originally, with no other explanation it would likely be taken by Irish people as such a reference nowadays. I imagine people who use the phrase don't realise how it could be misconstrued, but that doesn't stop it from being racist. I've been living in the UK for a year now and haven't heard it, but I would think less of someone who I heard utter it.

you are right and I have fallen into the trap of taking this down the route all these threads end up.

As an old teacher of mine usd to say, something is only offensive if it offends someone, but if it does offend someone, it is undeniably offensive.