Do you consider the term 'throwing a paddy' to be a racist slur?

Alanna

I am a regular poster on a UK forum and debate is raging about this term there atm.
Before I moved to the UK I never really heard this phrase for describing a tantrum so I suspect it originated in the UK. I was wondering what the opinion is on here? I suspect the origin of this term stems from the opinion that the Irish over in the UK had a history of fighting and being physical but I could be totally wrong. I can't find the origin of it anywhere, so does anyone here know where it comes from, or care?

looksee

I have been familiar with that expression all my life and until I read your post it never occured to me to make an Irish connection.

Alanna

I am very happy to be wrong on this one but suspect I'm not

Fratton Fred

Is this a new olympic event, like Dwarf throwing?

bill_ashmount

Never heard of this term, and either way I don't find it racist.

The Bollox

if it is refering to Irish people then I think it's hilarious. I never knew we were known for tantrums

rubyred

My family is English even though I was born and raised over here (in my mind I'm Irish) and I grew up hearing that phrase a lot. But never connected it to the Irish.

Pighead

Pighead would have thought that 'throwing a Maddy' would be a more fitting term to describe somebody who was losing it.

KilbarrackBlows

Alanna wrote:

I am a regular poster on a UK forum and debate is raging about this term there atm.
Before I moved to the UK I never really heard this phrase for describing a tantrum so I suspect it originated in the UK. I was wondering what the opinion is on here? I suspect the origin of this term stems from the opinion that the Irish over in the UK had a history of fighting and being physical but I could be totally wrong. I can't find the origin of it anywhere, so does anyone here know where it comes from, or care?

For some reason i get really pissed off when i hear an english person
calling an irish guy a paddy or irish people paddy's i find it offensive.
Ive talked to british troops and some british people online or ran across them on some other sites and they use it in a derogatory way so i do find it racist :mad:

zuutroy

never heard of it, but I refer to Irish as Paddies regularly.

The Bollox

pfft just call them cheese eating surrender monk... oh wait that the French... call them buck tooth'd tea drinkers

Fratton Fred

KilbarrackBlows wrote:

For some reason i get really pissed off when i hear an english person
calling an irish guy a paddy or irish people paddy's i find it offensive.
Ive talked to british troops and some british people online or ran across them on some other sites and they use it in a derogatory way so i do find it racist :mad:

I can understand that, but I hear more Irish people use the term Paddy than English.

As for throwing a paddy, I had never associated with the Irish before, but I'm pretty sure the two are not connected.

BTW, did you know that the term berk is short for the cockney rhyming slang of Berkley Hunt. So when you call someone a berk, you are actually calling them a cu*t.

No, but as long as Irish emigrants are working like blacks I don't see why they should be offended.

simu

I never heard of this particular phrase before but for the word paddy in general, it all depends on the context.

Steez

Pighead wrote:

Pighead would have thought that 'throwing a Maddy' would be a more fitting term to describe somebody who was losing it.

ROFL

tbh

I think the origin could be seen as racist by todays standards, but obviously it's ridiculous to judge the actions of the past by todays standards. I would imagine that it's lost it's meaning today - most English people probably just think of 'paddy' in this context as meaning a tantrum, with no connection to ireland - like the 'paddy' in 'paddy' fields. It's an interesting one, I've never heard the expression before, but I wouldn't be too worried about it.



edit: it would seem they are in fact connected:

From the twelfth century, when Gerald of Wales described the Irish as "a filthy people, wallowing in vice," to the nineteenth century, when Thomas Carlyle called Ireland a "human swinery", and well into the next, the Irish have were viewed as an inferior race by the British. Declan Kiberd, in ‘Inventing Ireland – The Literature Of The Modern Nation’ argues that Ireland was pressed into service as a foil to set off English virtues.

‘Victorian imperialists attributed to the Irish all those emotions and impulses which a harsh mercantile code had led them to suppress in themselves. Thus, if John Bull was industrious and reliable, Paddy was held to be indolent and contrary;if the former was mature and rational, the latter must be unstable and emotional;if the English were adult and manly, the Irish must be childish and feminine.’ (Page 34)

The English, then, projected onto the Irish all the feelings and behaviour that they couldn’t face in themselves and, argues Kiberd, Ireland became England’s subconscious. Traces of this persist to the present day – Leeds, where I now live, is one of the most violent cities in the UK, yet people here still refer to someone losing their temper as ‘Throwing a Paddy” (and, of course, people still continue to use the expression “to welsh on a deal”).

http://www.rayfrench.com/We've Been here before.htm

Cuddlesworth

Won't somebody think of the children, for the love of god think of the children!!!

ejmaztec

Throwing a paddy is no worse than zip up yer mickey!

r3nu4l

tbh wrote:

I would imagine that it's lost it's meaning today - most English people probably just think of 'paddy' in this context as meaning a tantrum, with no connection to ireland

Like the OP, I had never heard this term until moving to the UK. In fact I was here over a year before I heard it. A girl at work last February said it (a month after I started my current job). She immediately looked at me and threw her hand over her mouth in shock at her faux pas and then apologised.

The fact that everyone else who was there started to squirm and look red-faced tells me that the English know exactly what it means and use it in a derogatory manner in much the same way as they use 'the N-word' in private but not in public...

Therefore I view it as racist.

The Bollox

r3nu4l wrote:

Like the OP, I had never heard this term until moving to the UK. In fact I was here over a year before I heard it. A girl at work last February said it (a month after I started my current job). She immediately looked at me and threw her hand over her mouth in shock at her faux pas and then apologised.

The fact that everyone else who was there started to squirm and look red-faced tells me that the English know exactly what it means and use it in a derogatory manner in much the same way as they use 'the N-word' in private but not in public...

Therefore I view it as racist.

in the same way you wouldn't say "working like a black" infront of a black person

Fratton Fred

r3nu4l wrote:

Like the OP, I had never heard this term until moving to the UK. In fact I was here over a year before I heard it. A girl at work last February said it (a month after I started my current job). She immediately looked at me and threw her hand over her mouth in shock at her faux pas and then apologised.

The fact that everyone else who was there started to squirm and look red-faced tells me that the English know exactly what it means and use it in a derogatory manner in much the same way as they use 'the N-word' in private but not in public...

Therefore I view it as racist.

I think you need to be a little bit less sensitive.

tallus

ejmaztec wrote:

Throwing a paddy is no worse than zip up yer mickey!

Does anyone know if the original version of the twink thing is doing the rounds?
I dont find the term "throwing a paddy" offensive, who gives a toss tbh.

Fratton Fred

ejmaztec wrote:

Throwing a paddy is no worse than zip up yer mickey!

has no one thought how Bernhard must feel about the way people use his name for gods sake.

people should have more respect for a golfer of his calibre.

The Bollox

the first time I saw his name on the tv I thought someone was having a laugh

Hagar

It's not hard to believe that any negative stereotype, coming from the English, containing the word "Paddy", is a slur against the Irish race.

We are not your michievious tantrum throwing children, and we never were. Get over it.

This Article might be worth a read.

AlmightyCushion

I don't find the term in the slightest bit offensive and I thing anyone who does is far too sensitive for their own good.

r3nu4l

Fratton Fred wrote:

I think you need to be a little bit less sensitive.

How am I being sensitive? I stated some facts and made a summation on how that reflects on the meaning of the phrase based on the reaction of the English people around me. Nothing more. How is that being sensitive to anything? I think you're drawing a conclusion that isn't there Fred.

As it happens, the girl did not mean to be offensive so I wasn't offended but it does show that while the phrase may be bandied about a lot without much thought...English people in general DO understand what it means in relation to Irish people and do associate it with Irish people.

If I was sensitive to everything the English say and do I either wouldn't be living in Engerland or I'd have about a million posts here about it

Alanna

Look I know it is not up there with the most offensive things that can be said and I know that English people generally don't mean it to be a racial slur BUT it does contribute to the low-level pervasive prejudice that the Irish suffer in the UK.
I didn't have a clue about it until I lived here for a few years and it does bother me, not a huge amount but enough to argue about it on the internet for most of the day:rolleyes:

Having googled it a few times there is no real 'proof' that it has an anti-irish sentiment but that is the general asumption. I think the fact that it is a term rarely used in Ireland is quite significant too.

So just in case you didn't realise, you too can be offended when you next hear it:D

latenia

The English still think they're superior to the rest of the world and using these words is just another way to help delude themselves. One of the first things they assign to any race is a derogotary nickname-think of Kraut, Frog, Paki Paddy, Sweaty etc. I know of no other culture that does this to this extent.

The Bollox

apart from being a dergoratory German name, what is a kraut?

Alanna

It's a cabbage I think, as in saurkraut.

Ickle Magoo

Alanna wrote:

I am a regular poster on a UK forum and debate is raging about this term there atm.
Before I moved to the UK I never really heard this phrase for describing a tantrum so I suspect it originated in the UK. I was wondering what the opinion is on here? I suspect the origin of this term stems from the opinion that the Irish over in the UK had a history of fighting and being physical but I could be totally wrong. I can't find the origin of it anywhere, so does anyone here know where it comes from, or care?

I'm from Scotland & I'd never heard the expression until I read your post...is it an English expression? Now look at who's throwing racial slurs about!

Dave!

Never heard the expression, but I'm not offended at all

Fratton Fred

latenia wrote:

The English still think they're superior to the rest of the world and using these words is just another way to help delude themselves. One of the first things they assign to any race is a derogotary nickname-think of Kraut, Frog, Paki Paddy, Sweaty etc. I know of no other culture that does this to this extent.

Err, isn't a sweeping derogatory generalisation of an entire nation racist?

By the way, we are superior, get over it;)

Alanna

LOL over on that forum they are being all sanctimonious about how it has nothing to do with the Irish and how people can choose to be offended at anything. And then there are about a hundred of them piling in saying that their granddad is irish and he uses the term and various other weak defences. I have actually given up and am not arguing it because I can't 'prove' where it comes from, OED is the only source they will accept and you can't access that online.

Anyhow, life is too short to get het up, I know. I just think that it is more than likely that this term did originate as a slur on the Irish and that it is convenient for folk in the UK to 'forget' where it came from.

tallus

Fratton Fred wrote:

has no one thought how Bernhard must feel about the way people use his name for gods sake.

people should have more respect for a golfer of his calibre.

When he missed a six foot putt in the Ryder Cup years back he had the nickname "the six foot langer"

Fratton Fred

latenia wrote:

The English still think they're superior to the rest of the world and using these words is just another way to help delude themselves. One of the first things they assign to any race is a derogotary nickname-think of Kraut, Frog, Paki Paddy, Sweaty etc. I know of no other culture that does this to this extent.

do you not read After Hours very much.

Just see how much hatred is shown to Travellers, Roma, the Poles and anyone else who isn't Irish.

Then think again.

Ireland is a far more racist country than England.

Fratton Fred

r3nu4l wrote:

How am I being sensitive? I stated some facts and made a summation on how that reflects on the meaning of the phrase based on the reaction of the English people around me. Nothing more. How is that being sensitive to anything? I think you're drawing a conclusion that isn't there Fred.

As it happens, the girl did not mean to be offensive so I wasn't offended but it does show that while the phrase may be bandied about a lot without much thought...English people in general DO understand what it means in relation to Irish people and do associate it with Irish people.

If I was sensitive to everything the English say and do I either wouldn't be living in Engerland or I'd have about a million posts here about it

Actually, reading that again, you are right, I think the people around you should be less sensitive.

I will gaurantee they did not associate the term with the Irish, I never have (But it's not a phrase I use very often) but their reaction was probably more hurtful than the phrase.

Alanna

Just found this
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/paddy_2?view=uk

Fratton Fred

Fratton Fred wrote:

do you not read After Hours very much.

Just see how much hatred is shown to Travellers, Roma, the Poles and anyone else who isn't Irish.

Then think again.

Ireland is a far more racist country than England.

I thought the majority of Travellers in Ireland were Irish?

Hagar

I've only ever heard the phrase on English TV, never in real life.

I don't think your average English guy is insensitive enough to cause offence bu using the phrase deliberately in front of an Irish person , but the fact that he would refrain from using the phrase is an acknowledgement of it racist overtones.

bill_ashmount

Fratton Fred wrote:

Ireland is a far more racist country than England.

:rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote:

It's not hard to believe that any negative stereotype, coming from the English, containing the word "Paddy", is a slur against the Irish race.

We are not your michievious tantrum throwing children, and we never were. Get over it.

This Article might be worth a read.

Did you notice that in that article, the author conveniently slips between English and British to avoid criticising the Welsh (It's written for a Welsh magazine).

One author's impression does not make a fact based arguement. Sure there used to be "No Black, No Irish" signs up in boarding houses, but do you really think that in Ireland today, if they could get away with putting up "No Poes, No Chinese" sign they would.

Do not criticise the spec in your neighbours eye, when you cannot see the moat in your own,

Fratton Fred

bill_ashmount wrote:

:rolleyes:

care to deny it?

latenia

Fratton Fred wrote:

do you not read After Hours very much.

Just see how much hatred is shown to Travellers, Roma, the Poles and anyone else who isn't Irish.

Then think again.

Ireland is a far more racist country than England.

Travellers are Irish; I've never heard any 'hatred' of Poles here and Roma are unpopular everywhere. In fact, many Eastern Europeans come here ahead of the UK because we are more welcoming. There is some disquiet over immigration and asylum seekers here but it's generally confined to a minority. Remember-the population of Ireland has increased by about 15% with foreigners in the last few years-the equivalent percentage increase in the UK would be about 8 million people. There are always a backward few who whinge louder than the majority but in general I would say the integration here has been remarkably smooth.

Contrast this with the hysterics in the mainstream British press. The 2 best selling papers in the UK are the Daily Mail and the Sun-they reflect the opinions of the masses. Only last week the Sun used the word 'Paki' in a headline.

We have no equivalent of the BNP in this country (well if we do it's 2 men and a dog, not elected officials.)

We do not start wars out of some deeply ingrained superiority complex.

I understand how you might get defensive about this but I'm afraid it's true. Before I would have rejected criticism of the English as outdated remnants of Irish republicanism and been embarassed by it. As I got older and more aware of the world and society I saw the huge flaws in Britain and in particular the English .

Exit

Fratton Fred wrote:

do you really think that in Ireland today, if they could get away with putting up "No Poes, No Chinese" sign they would.

Edgar Allen would be rolling in his grave.

Hagar

Fratton Fred wrote:

Did you notice that in that article, the author conveniently slips between English and British to avoid criticising the Welsh (It's written for a Welsh magazine).

He did mention the phrase "welshing on a bet" so I think the article in not entirely biased.

Fratton Fred wrote:

One author's impression does not make a fact based arguement. Sure there used to be "No Black, No Irish" signs up in boarding houses, but do you really think that in Ireland today, if they could get away with putting up "No Poes, No Chinese" sign they would.

Indeed it does not, you are quite correct. It does show that at least one author has done reseach and believes that there might be some truth to the premise that the phrase may be racist in origin.
Before I embrace your assumption that Irish boarding houses would put up such signs if they could I would ask you to justify the original signs in England.

The guy

Before this thread I never heard of it before.

Also, I don't find it offensive at all or a racist slur.

axer

It is a racist slur which I am not offended by. I do get a strong impression by the majority of English people I meet that the nation suffers from a superiority complex.

Terry

Fratton Fred wrote:

R3nual wrote:

Like the OP, I had never heard this term until moving to the UK. In fact I was here over a year before I heard it. A girl at work last February said it (a month after I started my current job). She immediately looked at me and threw her hand over her mouth in shock at her faux pas and then apologised.

The fact that everyone else who was there started to squirm and look red-faced tells me that the English know exactly what it means and use it in a derogatory manner in much the same way as they use 'the N-word' in private but not in public...

Therefore I view it as racist.

I think you need to be a little bit less sensitive.

Fratton Fred wrote:

Err, isn't a sweeping derogatory generalisation of an entire nation racist?

I think you need to be a little less sensitive.

Seems to me that all was well and good until the English were put under scrutiny.

If what was experienced by r3nu4l is any indication, then it seems some English people do use it and see it as a derogatory term in reference to Irish people.

Terry

axer wrote:

It is a racist slur which I am not offended by. I do get a strong impression by the majority of English people I meet that the nation suffers from a superiority complex.

Indeed.
I have an English friend who is convinced that the English (not british, Scottish or Welsh (He refers to Wales as "The insignificant country). Specifically the English) brought civilisation to the entire world and we would all still be living in mud huts were it not for them.
A similar view was expressed here a week or so ago by one of our esteemed users, albeit in a less obvious way.