Greatest Irishman: Michael Collins or Eamon de Valera?

Time Magazine

Well who would you vote for as the greatest Irishman of all time? One brought the British Empire to its knees and had been the Minister for Finance before his death at 33, the other is the only man to have been both Taoiseach and President and is responsible for our constitution.

Simple enough, really.

Steve_o

I'm not getting into this Collins vs. Dev arguement so i'm gonna say the greatest irishman was Wolfe Tone.

Plug

Eamon de Valera

Eamon de Valera jst wanted publicity:rolleyes:
Micheal collins was a true hero, we could do with more people like him nowadays.
*edit* @Steve_o, im listening to the wolfe tones right now!

Time Magazine

Eamon de Valera

Steve_o wrote:

I'm not getting into this Collins vs. Dev arguement so i'm gonna say the greatest ever irishman was Wolfe Tone.

There's an Atari Jaguar option, but let's not name anyone else to keep this on-topic. I wouldn't vote for that Trinity Proddie personally anyway.

nice1franko

Dan Breen

jameshayes

Both were just as important, without either we probably would not be where we are today.

_blank_

Atari Jaguar

Collins was nothing but a sell out.

What he did was a direct cause of the troubles in the Northern part of this divided island.

DeValera sent his best man to do the job, the brits were running scared of him, and what does he do? Gives them the North? Spineless fúcker tbh.

Dev ftw. (not DeVore...DeValera)

bill_ashmount

Eamon de Valera

This thread is going to decend into a farce pretty quickly.

Anyway I voted Collins.
Can't wait for the discussion to turn to Roy Keane

Steve_o

Ibid wrote:

Proddie

Lets keep words like that to ourselves shall we....

mikemac

Eamon de Valera

Brian Boru ftw
Drove the Vikings from our shores.

Collins will win this poll and the reason is many think the Neil Jordan film is all true factually:eek:

experiMental

What are you all on about, people?

Henry Ford must surely be one of the greatest Irishmen ever!
Just think of what would we be diving if he wouldn't revolutionise mass production and design of cars...

gimmick

Why has Roy Keane not been mentioned? Greatet Irish man to ever live.

humanji

Watching Reeling in the Years last night and they went on about DeValera's funeral. What I found a bit sad was that they said he died in a nursing home. It's not exactly how I'd expect someone who'd be Taoiseach and President to go out.

Anyway, I voted for Collins. I never really liked Devalera, and as my History teacher often told us, "The reason there's no roads named after DeValera is that there's no road long enough and crooked enough." And besides, after watching the Michael Collins film, I realised that DeValera was the same guy who tried to Kill Robin Hood and tried blowing up the Nakatomi Building! How can he be trusted?

Rosita

Atari Jaguar

There is no comparison and there should be no comparison between Dev and Collins. One gave his the longest career ever in government and the other was someone who arranghed guerilla attacks and then attacked those who he had previously been involved with and was never part of what one could call a regular government. Only in Ireland would Collins be regarded as greater by people who would slate the modern IRA who merely did the same thing. Bizarre.

grahamo

Eamon de Valera

Shane McGowan, closely followed by Roy Keane. Greatest honorary Irishman = Jackie charlton

county

experiMental wrote:

What are you all on about, people?

Henry Ford must surely be one of the greatest Irishmen ever!
Just think of what would we be diving if he wouldn't revolutionise mass production and design of cars...

his father was irish not him

raido9

gimmick wrote:

Why has Roy Keane not been mentioned? Greatet Irish man to ever live.

+1

humanji

Rosita wrote:

There is no comparison and there should be no comparison between Dev and Collins. One gave his the longest career ever in government and the other was someone who arranghed guerilla attacks and then attacked those who he had previously been involved with and was never part of what one could call a regular government. Only in Ireland would Collins be regarded as greater by people who would slate the modern IRA who merely did the same thing. Bizarre.

The modern IRA are drug dealers and gun runners. They're hardly the same as the IRA of the time (or was it IRB then?).

chillywilly

Eamon de Valera

experiMental wrote:

What are you all on about, people?

Henry Ford must surely be one of the greatest Irishmen ever!
Just think of what would we be diving if he wouldn't revolutionise mass production and design of cars...

henry ford was american, only of irish descent;)

anyway id say collins....because of what he might have achieved if he didnt get shot

The_B_Man

grahamo wrote:

Shane McGowan, closely followed by Roy Keane. Greatest honorary Irishman = Jackie charlton

What about St Patrick?!?! without him, we'd be all crawlin with snakes and be all atheist swines!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Steve_o

The_B_Man wrote:

What about St Patrick?!?! without him, we'd be all crawlin with snakes and be all atheist swines!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

St. Patrick was Welsh....I think.

humanji

And we'd have nothing to do on Paddy's Day!

Mushy

Eamon de Valera

DesF wrote:

Collins was nothing but a sell out.

What he did was a direct cause of the troubles in the Northern part of this divided island.

DeValera sent his best man to do the job, the brits were running scared of him, and what does he do? Gives them the North? Spineless fúcker tbh.

Dev ftw. (not DeVore...DeValera)

Hope you're joking? Are you?

Dev didnt go to England for the negotiations cos he knew he wouldnt be able to win independence for Ireland. He kept his own hands clean, and sent Collins and others over to take the blame when they'd return. Genius move by him actually.

And sure Collins and the others were facing the people who negotiated the Paris Peace Settlement, pretty much professionals against amateurs in negotiating. Not even Dev could have won the North to make a Republic of Ireland at that stage.

Pigman II

gimmick wrote:

Why has Roy Keane not been mentioned?

Because he's a traitor.

_blank_

Atari Jaguar

Mushy wrote:

Hope you're joking? Are you?

Dev didnt go to England for the negotiations cos he knew he wouldnt be able to win independence for Ireland. He kept his own hands clean, and sent Collins and others over to take the blame when they'd return. Genius move by him actually.

And sure Collins and the others were facing the people who negotiated the Paris Peace Settlement, pretty much professionals against amateurs in negotiating. Not even Dev could have won the North to make a Republic of Ireland at that stage.

I'm not joking. I'm quite serious as it happens.

If this was the early 20s, and we were actually chatting face to face and not on the internet, and I had a gun, I'd shoot you.

Your opinion is flawed by watching too many films.

The Brits were scared of Collins. Dev knew this. He sent Collins to get the republic from a country that was running scared. If Collins had have had a bit of backbone, we'd be living in a 32 county republic now, not still waiting on the 'stepping stone' of partition as Collins called it.

Hrududu

Eamon de Valera

Hope you're joking? Are you?

Dev didnt go to England for the negotiations cos he knew he wouldnt be able to win independence for Ireland. He kept his own hands clean, and sent Collins and others over to take the blame when they'd return. Genius move by him actually.

And sure Collins and the others were facing the people who negotiated the Paris Peace Settlement, pretty much professionals against amateurs in negotiating. Not even Dev could have won the North to make a Republic of Ireland at that stage.

Agreed. Dev didnt go because he didnt want to be the bad guy coming back. Nobody could have gotten a 32 county republic at that stage.

If this was the early 20s, and we were actually chatting face to face and not on the internet, and I had a gun, I'd shoot you.

I take it you're a child then?

_blank_

Atari Jaguar

Hrududu wrote:

Agreed. Dev didnt go because he didnt want to be the bad guy coming back. Nobody could have gotten a 32 county republic at that stage.

Wrong. Collins was supposed to be Dev's right hand man, and his Ace Card.

Perhaps a mistake Dev made was playing his top trump too early, but that's a different argument. Dev had tried the softly softly approach with the Brits and it didn't work. He sent his best man, his wingman, who the brits were AFRAID of.

Collins bottled it. End of.

Just like that other Cork traitor years later after him.

Mushy

Eamon de Valera

DesF wrote:

I'm not joking. I'm quite serious as it happens.

If this was the early 20s, and we were actually chatting face to face and not on the internet, and I had a gun, I'd shoot you.

Your opinion is flawed by watching too many films.

The Brits were scared of Collins. Dev knew this. He sent Collins to get the republic from a country that was running scared. If Collins had have had a bit of backbone, we'd be living in a 32 county republic now, not still waiting on the 'stepping stone' of partition as Collins called it.

Oh, I know that'd happen:p

I didnt watch any films(apart from the one time I saw Michael Collins, back when it came out), just paid attention in history class all off three months ago. At the time, Ireland were never in a position to gain a republic, and as I said, not even Dev could have won it. Why would the British be scared of Collins? He posed no threat to them. When the inevitable negotiations started, Lloyd George was always going to wipe the floor with the irish delegates. Dev tried sly tactics by gettting them to go back to him for any decisions, but in the end it didnt work. IMO, Dev is glorified as a greater Irishman because he was the one who went to town in destroying the links with Britain. But what must be remembered is that this was only possible because the Pro-Treaty Party were in power when the Statute of Westminster came in, therefore allowing him remove all past links. This was after Collins' death though, but with his death brought greater support for that party.

humanji

DesF wrote:

The Brits were scared of Collins. Dev knew this. He sent Collins to get the republic from a country that was running scared. If Collins had have had a bit of backbone, we'd be living in a 32 county republic now, not still waiting on the 'stepping stone' of partition as Collins called it.

Granted, it's been 10 years since I did Irish history, but wasn't Collins sent to discuss Home Rule, not becoming a republic? I thought that idea didn't come till later? But then again, as I said, it's been awhile since I did history

And regardless, what about Richard Harris? The man was a legend. There were so many brilliant stories about the man, like the time he went out on the piss for several days without telling his wife where he was. When he finally got home, she appeared at the door, understandably angry, and he looked her in the eye and said "Why didn't you pay the ransom?" Class

Hogmeister B

Atari Jaguar

Oops, i accidentally voted Dev. I'll never live it down.

As any history of his life shows, the man was the ultimate control freak and a rampant egoist who was obsessed with being seen as the figurehead of the Irish struggle.

As for the idea that Collins was the best man for the negotiations, that's utterly preposterous. He was a soldier; Dev was the man for the job. But several months of correspondence with Lloyd George ensured that Dev knew damn well there would be no Republic and 26 counties only. As far as LG was concerned they were discussing Dominion status for Ireland, not independence.

Rob_l

Eamon de Valera

gimmick wrote:

Why has Roy Keane not been mentioned? Greatet Irish man to ever live.

didn't he play for a foreign team:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Gingervitis

humanji wrote:

And besides, after watching the Michael Collins film, I realised that DeValera was the same guy who tried to Kill Robin Hood and tried blowing up the Nakatomi Building! How can he be trusted?

Defo, how could you go against the Big Man, who incidently, also saved over a thousand Jews in WW2, was a powerful Jedi, and...em... was Aslan?
Michael Collins ftw!!:D

anthony4335

Dev sent Collins, so he did not have to compromise his position. In doing so he never had to accept any British rule. Collins was a casualty of a political war. The war of Independence was actually a war of self rule, if I remember right ,a war which was a result of a broken promise after 1916, of self rule for ending the campaign while WW1 was going on. Dev was a Politician, I don't think that he would top the bill if we were to look at the politicians of Ireland ,I think that O'Connell would beat him by a mile.
As for my suggestion of a potential candidate of greatest Irish man, is the guy from Braveheart. Lets be serious no one man can be singled out as the greatest. If you start a tread about the worst you might have a chance.

bill_ashmount

Eamon de Valera

DesF wrote:

Just like that other Cork traitor years later after him.

lol, and we have a winner. Don't let the bitterness eat up your sad empty life.

humanji

Hogmeister B wrote:

As any history of his life shows, the man was the ultimate control freak and a rampant egoist who was obsessed with being seen as the figurehead of the Irish struggle.

And he lured children into his gingerbread house! :eek:

stipey

DesF wrote:

The Brits were scared of Collins. Dev knew this. He sent Collins to get the republic from a country that was running scared. If Collins had have had a bit of backbone, we'd be living in a 32 county republic now, not still waiting on the 'stepping stone' of partition as Collins called it.

Actually.... de Valera’s gaol was that of ‘external association’ whereby a self-governing Ireland would be voluntarily associated with the Britain for purposes of common concern, and as such would recognise the authority of the Crown as head of that association. Lloyd George was adamant that Ireland remain an integral part of the British political superstructure and was not going to budge on this front as he was already under pressure for even negotiating with the Irish. Essentially he feared that conceding on this point would be the straw that broke the camel's back and see him lose power.

It was an ingenious idea on the part of deV. It was just ahead of its time - it anticipated aspects of the future developments and the emergence of the British Commonwealth. deV never expected a United Irish republic. He knew it was too much to ask but, as has already been pointed out by other posters, he used it as a political tool in the aftermath.


[Edit]By the way, Lloyd George presented Griffith and Collins with an ultimatum to either sign the treaty or face a return to armed hostilities. At the time, the Irish had neither the weapons nor ammunition to last another month - and who knows what would have happened then[/Edit]

neil_hosey

Atari Jaguar

James Connolly...

Then Jim Larkin.

..Dev was born in America.

Mr. Presentable

Arthur Wesley - The Duke of Wellington

George Bernard Shaw

James Larkin

neil_hosey

Atari Jaguar

Gráinne Mhaol

gimmick

Rob_l wrote:

didn't he play for a foreign team:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

After he played for Cobh Ramblers yes, but he also played for Celtic, and in some muppets eyes, thats as good as playing for Ireland.

Re subject of the thread, anyone who says Dev is a great man obviously has a bias against Cork.

Ishmael

I would have said Robert Boyle or Nicholas Callan.

But hey, obviously crooked politicians and warmongers are more important!

_blank_

Atari Jaguar

gimmick wrote:

Re subject of the thread, anyone who says Dev is a great man obviously has a bias against Cork.

Nail on the head there man.

You can take yer people's republic and sail off with it. Go on, we don't want yiz in anyway, we'll do fine without yiz biy.

Zambia

Eamon de Valera

All films aside Dev was basically an American who interfered with Irish politics with terrible consequences.

De valera should in the very least laid clear and concise instructions as to what was not acceptable to him/the state.

In the same line of thought Collins should have obtained clear direction from Dev and not given in before signing. But his is the lesser of the two mistakes.

In essence like all enterprises the buck stops at the top. He mucked up big time in all the history I have learnt about Dev he did little to ease the suffering of this island in his lifetime.

However the past is the past may they both rest in peace

mikemac

Eamon de Valera

neil_hosey wrote:

James Connolly...

Then Jim Larkin.

..Dev was born in America.

True but James Connolly was born in Scotland and James Larkin was born in Liverpool.

So none of them were Irish
Edit: Maybe you knew this already Neil

gimmick

Des F wrote:

Nail on the head there man.

You can take yer people's republic and sail off with it. Go on, we don't want yiz in anyway, we'll do fine without yiz biy.

If I had my way i would angle grind the Peoples Republic off the rest of the country, ye dont want us, we dont need the rest of the country.

The sun always shines in Cork.

Rob_l

Eamon de Valera

gimmick wrote:

After he played for Cobh Ramblers yes, but he also played for Celtic, and in some muppets eyes, thats as good as playing for Ireland.

Re subject of the thread, anyone who says Dev is a great man obviously has a bias against Cork.

which muppet?

kermit perhaps?

is that your eyes because i have not stated it as so and so are you said muppet?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Rob_l

Eamon de Valera

gimmick wrote:

If I had my way i would angle grind the Peoples Republic off the rest of the country, ye dont want us, we dont need the rest of the country.

The sun always shines in Cork.

and it was in the munster republic you lot shot michael collins

_blank_

Atari Jaguar

I'll come down to give you a hand.

I know a good place to hire machinery and all.

Nothing good ever came out of Cork. Apart from the road to Dublin.

PROC = Bitter
Roy Keane = Quitter
Michael Collins = Britter
Sonia O'Sullivan = Shítter

sioda

Eamon de Valera

Dev made Charlie Haughy look straight. He was a coward and a liar.

Collins on the other hand was what Ireland needed at the time someone who showed that Irish resolve could not be broken. The fact that he got tarred for the treaty just showed how manipulative Dev was.

chopperbyrne

Bill O'Herlihy.

That is all.

Terry

Fionn mac Cumhaill