Greatest Irishman: Michael Collins or Eamon de Valera?

Gingervitis · 31-08-2007 10:28AM

humanji wrote:

And besides, after watching the Michael Collins film, I realised that DeValera was the same guy who tried to Kill Robin Hood and tried blowing up the Nakatomi Building! How can he be trusted?

Defo, how could you go against the Big Man, who incidently, also saved over a thousand Jews in WW2, was a powerful Jedi, and...em... was Aslan?
Michael Collins ftw!!:D

anthony4335 · 31-08-2007 10:28AM

Dev sent Collins, so he did not have to compromise his position. In doing so he never had to accept any British rule. Collins was a casualty of a political war. The war of Independence was actually a war of self rule, if I remember right ,a war which was a result of a broken promise after 1916, of self rule for ending the campaign while WW1 was going on. Dev was a Politician, I don't think that he would top the bill if we were to look at the politicians of Ireland ,I think that O'Connell would beat him by a mile.
As for my suggestion of a potential candidate of greatest Irish man, is the guy from Braveheart. Lets be serious no one man can be singled out as the greatest. If you start a tread about the worst you might have a chance.

bill_ashmount · 31-08-2007 10:29AM

Eamon de Valera

DesF wrote:

Just like that other Cork traitor years later after him.

lol, and we have a winner. Don't let the bitterness eat up your sad empty life.

humanji · 31-08-2007 10:35AM

Hogmeister B wrote:

As any history of his life shows, the man was the ultimate control freak and a rampant egoist who was obsessed with being seen as the figurehead of the Irish struggle.

And he lured children into his gingerbread house! :eek:

stipey · 31-08-2007 10:36AM

DesF wrote:

The Brits were scared of Collins. Dev knew this. He sent Collins to get the republic from a country that was running scared. If Collins had have had a bit of backbone, we'd be living in a 32 county republic now, not still waiting on the 'stepping stone' of partition as Collins called it.

Actually.... de Valera’s gaol was that of ‘external association’ whereby a self-governing Ireland would be voluntarily associated with the Britain for purposes of common concern, and as such would recognise the authority of the Crown as head of that association. Lloyd George was adamant that Ireland remain an integral part of the British political superstructure and was not going to budge on this front as he was already under pressure for even negotiating with the Irish. Essentially he feared that conceding on this point would be the straw that broke the camel's back and see him lose power.

It was an ingenious idea on the part of deV. It was just ahead of its time - it anticipated aspects of the future developments and the emergence of the British Commonwealth. deV never expected a United Irish republic. He knew it was too much to ask but, as has already been pointed out by other posters, he used it as a political tool in the aftermath.

[Edit]By the way, Lloyd George presented Griffith and Collins with an ultimatum to either sign the treaty or face a return to armed hostilities. At the time, the Irish had neither the weapons nor ammunition to last another month - and who knows what would have happened then[/Edit]

neil_hosey · 31-08-2007 10:36AM

Atari Jaguar

James Connolly...

Then Jim Larkin.

..Dev was born in America.

Mr. Presentable · 31-08-2007 10:42AM

Arthur Wesley - The Duke of Wellington

George Bernard Shaw

James Larkin

neil_hosey · 31-08-2007 10:45AM

Atari Jaguar

Gráinne Mhaol

gimmick · 31-08-2007 10:45AM

Rob_l wrote:

didn't he play for a foreign team:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

After he played for Cobh Ramblers yes, but he also played for Celtic, and in some muppets eyes, thats as good as playing for Ireland.

Re subject of the thread, anyone who says Dev is a great man obviously has a bias against Cork.

Ishmael · 31-08-2007 10:50AM

I would have said Robert Boyle or Nicholas Callan.

But hey, obviously crooked politicians and warmongers are more important!

_blank_ · 31-08-2007 10:50AM

Atari Jaguar

gimmick wrote:

Re subject of the thread, anyone who says Dev is a great man obviously has a bias against Cork.

Nail on the head there man.

You can take yer people's republic and sail off with it. Go on, we don't want yiz in anyway, we'll do fine without yiz biy.

Zambia · 31-08-2007 10:57AM

Eamon de Valera

All films aside Dev was basically an American who interfered with Irish politics with terrible consequences.

De valera should in the very least laid clear and concise instructions as to what was not acceptable to him/the state.

In the same line of thought Collins should have obtained clear direction from Dev and not given in before signing. But his is the lesser of the two mistakes.

In essence like all enterprises the buck stops at the top. He mucked up big time in all the history I have learnt about Dev he did little to ease the suffering of this island in his lifetime.

However the past is the past may they both rest in peace

mikemac · 31-08-2007 10:57AM

Eamon de Valera

neil_hosey wrote:

James Connolly...

Then Jim Larkin.

..Dev was born in America.

True but James Connolly was born in Scotland and James Larkin was born in Liverpool.

So none of them were Irish
Edit: Maybe you knew this already Neil

gimmick · 31-08-2007 10:59AM

Des F wrote:

Nail on the head there man.

You can take yer people's republic and sail off with it. Go on, we don't want yiz in anyway, we'll do fine without yiz biy.

If I had my way i would angle grind the Peoples Republic off the rest of the country, ye dont want us, we dont need the rest of the country.

The sun always shines in Cork.

Rob_l · 31-08-2007 11:02AM

Eamon de Valera

gimmick wrote:

After he played for Cobh Ramblers yes, but he also played for Celtic, and in some muppets eyes, thats as good as playing for Ireland.

Re subject of the thread, anyone who says Dev is a great man obviously has a bias against Cork.

which muppet?

kermit perhaps?

is that your eyes because i have not stated it as so and so are you said muppet?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Rob_l · 31-08-2007 11:03AM

Eamon de Valera

gimmick wrote:

If I had my way i would angle grind the Peoples Republic off the rest of the country, ye dont want us, we dont need the rest of the country.

The sun always shines in Cork.

and it was in the munster republic you lot shot michael collins

_blank_ · 31-08-2007 11:05AM

Atari Jaguar

I'll come down to give you a hand.

I know a good place to hire machinery and all.

Nothing good ever came out of Cork. Apart from the road to Dublin.

PROC = Bitter
Roy Keane = Quitter
Michael Collins = Britter
Sonia O'Sullivan = Shítter

sioda · 31-08-2007 11:11AM

Eamon de Valera

Dev made Charlie Haughy look straight. He was a coward and a liar.

Collins on the other hand was what Ireland needed at the time someone who showed that Irish resolve could not be broken. The fact that he got tarred for the treaty just showed how manipulative Dev was.

chopperbyrne · 31-08-2007 11:15AM

Bill O'Herlihy.

That is all.

Terry · 31-08-2007 11:19AM

Fionn mac Cumhaill

rossie1977 · 31-08-2007 11:20AM

Eamon de Valera

Hmmmm let me think; a man who fought and died to gain and perserve Ireland's freedom or an american who treated Ireland as his own personal plaything and kept the population living in the dark ages until his death.

gimmick · 31-08-2007 11:21AM

Rob_l wrote:

and it was in the munster republic you lot shot michael collins

Thats was Devs militia

which muppet?

kermit perhaps?

is that your eyes because i have not stated it as so and so are you said muppet?

Touchy aren't we. I didn't actually mention you in this thread. So you took offence to something which wasn't even directed at you.

gimmick · 31-08-2007 11:25AM

DesF wrote:

I'll come down to give you a hand.

I know a good place to hire machinery and all.

Nothing good ever came out of Cork. Apart from the road to Dublin.

PROC = Bitter
Roy Keane = Quitter
Michael Collins = Britter
Sonia O'Sullivan = Shítter

Apart from consistent success

PROC = Bitter? No, just superior.

Roy Keane = Quitter? Just becase the rest of the country accepts mediocrity and being also rans (Dubs should know all about the plenty promise little delivery adage), doesn't mean us Cork folk do.

Michael Collins = Britter? Thats just wrong, but as my history aint what it was Im not able to elaborate

Sonia O Sullivan = ****ter? Why do you think we sent her to exile? She was an embarrassment to Cork glorious progeny.

scruff321 · 31-08-2007 11:33AM

im not voting, arguements for either,one thing for sure is that they are both 2 of the greatest irishmen who ever lived

TheJoker · 31-08-2007 11:37AM

Eamon de Valera

Greatest Irishman?

I am!

storyhorse · 31-08-2007 11:40AM

Liam Lawlor. He didn't let what society thought stop him from doing what he wanted. Ditto Ray Burke.

rebelcork · 31-08-2007 11:42AM

Eamon de Valera

Dev was a foreign coward who showed the yankee passport to dodge the bullet when real Irish patriots died for what they believed in.The biggest mistake was that his mother didn't f*ck him out the porthole on the way from America.
Collins was a man of substance who was sent to do a fools errand.

A-Train · 31-08-2007 11:50AM

Eamon de Valera

Collins defo Dev the man held this country back so many years with his vision of
Diddly Eye crap with maids dancing at the crossroads wouldnt expect anything more off an American.

Steve_o · 31-08-2007 11:51AM

chopperbyrne wrote:

Bill O'Herlihy.

That is all.

Good call, he is one of the greats alright......live.....

Ruu_Old · 31-08-2007 11:52AM

Eamon de Valera

Bono. \o/

/me hides from angry mob

Greatest Irishman: Michael Collins or Eamon de Valera?

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