Greatest Irishman: Michael Collins or Eamon de Valera?

I'm not getting into this Collins vs. Dev arguement so i'm gonna say the greatest irishman was Wolfe Tone.

Both were just as important, without either we probably would not be where we are today.

There is no comparison and there should be no comparison between Dev and Collins. One gave his the longest career ever in government and the other was someone who arranghed guerilla attacks and then attacked those who he had previously been involved with and was never part of what one could call a regular government. Only in Ireland would Collins be regarded as greater by people who would slate the modern IRA who merely did the same thing. Bizarre.

experiMental wrote:

What are you all on about, people?

Henry Ford must surely be one of the greatest Irishmen ever!
Just think of what would we be diving if he wouldn't revolutionise mass production and design of cars...

his father was irish not him

Rosita wrote:

There is no comparison and there should be no comparison between Dev and Collins. One gave his the longest career ever in government and the other was someone who arranghed guerilla attacks and then attacked those who he had previously been involved with and was never part of what one could call a regular government. Only in Ireland would Collins be regarded as greater by people who would slate the modern IRA who merely did the same thing. Bizarre.

The modern IRA are drug dealers and gun runners. They're hardly the same as the IRA of the time (or was it IRB then?).

And we'd have nothing to do on Paddy's Day!

Hope you're joking? Are you?

Dev didnt go to England for the negotiations cos he knew he wouldnt be able to win independence for Ireland. He kept his own hands clean, and sent Collins and others over to take the blame when they'd return. Genius move by him actually.

And sure Collins and the others were facing the people who negotiated the Paris Peace Settlement, pretty much professionals against amateurs in negotiating. Not even Dev could have won the North to make a Republic of Ireland at that stage.

Agreed. Dev didnt go because he didnt want to be the bad guy coming back. Nobody could have gotten a 32 county republic at that stage.

If this was the early 20s, and we were actually chatting face to face and not on the internet, and I had a gun, I'd shoot you.

I take it you're a child then?

DesF wrote:

I'm not joking. I'm quite serious as it happens.

If this was the early 20s, and we were actually chatting face to face and not on the internet, and I had a gun, I'd shoot you.

Your opinion is flawed by watching too many films.

The Brits were scared of Collins. Dev knew this. He sent Collins to get the republic from a country that was running scared. If Collins had have had a bit of backbone, we'd be living in a 32 county republic now, not still waiting on the 'stepping stone' of partition as Collins called it.

Oh, I know that'd happen:p

I didnt watch any films(apart from the one time I saw Michael Collins, back when it came out), just paid attention in history class all off three months ago. At the time, Ireland were never in a position to gain a republic, and as I said, not even Dev could have won it. Why would the British be scared of Collins? He posed no threat to them. When the inevitable negotiations started, Lloyd George was always going to wipe the floor with the irish delegates. Dev tried sly tactics by gettting them to go back to him for any decisions, but in the end it didnt work. IMO, Dev is glorified as a greater Irishman because he was the one who went to town in destroying the links with Britain. But what must be remembered is that this was only possible because the Pro-Treaty Party were in power when the Statute of Westminster came in, therefore allowing him remove all past links. This was after Collins' death though, but with his death brought greater support for that party.