uk motorways

dak

craichoe wrote:

Aye, shouldn't undertake either lads, if someones infront of you and their in the overtaking lane, you should treat it as being behind them with no room to overtake.

Undertaking is dangerous too and you should not do it.

AFAIK, only time you can undertake is when turning onto a slip road a short distance ahead, or when traffic in the overtake lane is completely stopped.

Maybe I'm wrong but i think you can only undertake when traffic is stopped or undertake without changing lanes when the traffic on the outer lane is travelling less then 30mph.

Henry Ford III

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

TheBazman

First of all I agree that we shouldn't undertake, however I have done it on a rare occasion. The only reason is that when I travel to work the 3 lane Naas rd is generally fairly quite so I travel along in the inside/leftmost lane where possible. However I often come across slower middle lane hoggers sauntering along, and as a result I have to cross across two lanes to the outside and back in to the inside lane. It's just frustrating.

Also there is a hope that on the rare occasion that I do undertake that the person who is in the middle lane will have their attention brought to the fact that their is plenty of room on the inside lane and decide to use it. Alas, more often than not, as I look in my rear view mirror, the seem completely oblivious

MrPudding

Henry Ford III wrote:

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Enlighten us oh great one....

MrP

dak

craichoe wrote:

Aye, shouldn't undertake either lads, if someones infront of you and their in the overtaking lane, you should treat it as being behind them with no room to overtake.

Undertaking is dangerous too and you should not do it.

AFAIK, only time you can undertake is when turning onto a slip road a short distance ahead, or when traffic in the overtake lane is completely stopped.

Rules of the road allow you as an exception to undertake if the traffic in the inner lane is moving faster than the overtaking lane providing NB that the outer lane traffic is not moving at a normal speed.

Henry Ford III

MrPudding wrote:

Enlighten us oh great one....

MrP

Read your Rules of the Road.

Marcus.Aurelius

Henry Ford III wrote:

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Twice that is still very little knowledge. Undertaking is undesirable, but necessitated by the morons that are irish drivers.

Sorry

Henry Ford III

maoleary wrote:

Twice that is still very little knowledge. Undertaking is undesirable, but necessitated by the morons that are irish drivers.

Sorry

Interesting view.

Undertaking is illegal, not just undesirable. Just because some drivers perform badly doesn't give anyone the right to break the law to get past them.

R.O.R

maoleary wrote:

Twice that is still very little knowledge. Undertaking is undesirable, but necessitated by the morons that are irish drivers.

Sorry

Here here, now lets leave Henry doing 80kmph in the outside lane because the person in front won't move out of the way - while the rest of us make decent safe progress at a steady speed in the inside lane.

Henry Ford III

You forgot to add "whilst breaking the law!"

MrPudding

Henry Ford III wrote:

You forgot to add "whilst breaking the law!"

Not always. The law allows for passing on the left in certain circumstances. As far as I am concerned anytime you pass someone on the left your are undertaking them. Therefore undertaking is not alway illegal.

So if you are in the inside lane doing whatever speed and there is a muppet in the outside lane going slower what do you do?

MrP

dak

MrPudding wrote:

Not always. The law allows for passing on the left in certain circumstances. As far as I am concerned anytime you pass someone on the left your are undertaking them. Therefore undertaking is not alway illegal.

So if you are in the inside lane doing whatever speed and there is a muppet in the outside lane going slower what do you do?

MrP

I agree that that the law allows undertaking in certain circumstances. The rules of the road are not precise enough . You may undertake legally if the inner lane traffic is moving faster than the outer lane providing the outer lane traffic is not moving at its "normal" speed. "Normal " speed is not specified ...I thought the old rules of the road specified 30mph .Anyone got a copy of the old rules ?

Henry Ford III

MrPudding wrote:

Not always. The law allows for passing on the left in certain circumstances. As far as I am concerned anytime you pass someone on the left your are undertaking them. Therefore undertaking is not alway illegal.

So if you are in the inside lane doing whatever speed and there is a muppet in the outside lane going slower what do you do?

MrP

With respect your interpretation of the law is irrelevant.

IAM book says "poor lane discipline is probably the worst feature of motorway driving in Ireland...if you come up behind a lane hog who fails to move over when there is plenty of space available, do not resort to aggressive tactics or attempt to teach a lesson. Flashing headlight, tailgating, or sounding your horn is not the way to get lane hogs to move over, and can often make them more stubborn....making a point by slicing across a lane hog's bows after you eventually pass is silly, and overtaking on the inside is illegal".

MrPudding

Henry Ford III wrote:

With respect your interpretation of the law is irrelevant.

IAM book says "poor lane discipline is probably the worst feature of motorway driving in Ireland...if you come up behind a lane hog who fails to move over when there is plenty of space available, do not resort to aggressive tactics or attempt to teach a lesson. Flashing headlight, tailgating, or sounding your horn is not the way to get lane hogs to move over, and can often make them more stubborn....making a point by slicing across a lane hog's bows after you eventually pass is silly, and overtaking on the inside is illegal".

Very interesting. How about you answer my question.

MrP

seamus

dak wrote:

I agree that that the law allows undertaking in certain circumstances. The rules of the road are not precise enough . You may undertake legally if the inner lane traffic is moving faster than the outer lane providing the outer lane traffic is not moving at its "normal" speed. "Normal " speed is not specified ...I thought the old rules of the road specified 30mph .Anyone got a copy of the old rules ?

The actual requirement is that the traffic must be moving in queues. So if there is a queue in the overtaking lane (and not just a line of fastish-moving traffic), then you may overtake on the left.

MrP, although it seems ridiculous and painful, if you're in the left hand lane and come across someone in the overtaking lane moving slower than you, the legal requirement is that you pull into the overtaking lane behind them and wait for them to move over.

Henry Ford III

dak wrote:

I agree that that the law allows undertaking in certain circumstances. The rules of the road are not precise enough . You may undertake legally if the inner lane traffic is moving faster than the outer lane providing the outer lane traffic is not moving at its "normal" speed. "Normal " speed is not specified ...I thought the old rules of the road specified 30mph .Anyone got a copy of the old rules ?

No mention of 30 mph in ROTR.

Henry Ford III

MrPudding wrote:

Very interesting. How about you answer my question.

MrP

I just did.

You must stay behind the lane hog.

Henry Ford III

seamus wrote:

The actual requirement is that the traffic must be moving in queues. So if there is a queue in the overtaking lane (and not just a line of fastish-moving traffic), then you may overtake on the left.

MrP, although it seems ridiculous and painful, if you're in the left hand lane and come across someone in the overtaking lane moving slower than you, the legal requirement is that you pull into the overtaking lane behind them and wait for them to move over.

Agreed 100% Seamus.

faceman

in my experience its seems to be only be irish road users who dont know how to use any road with more than 2 lanes correctly.

How many people still say the "fast lane"?

cpoh1

seamus wrote:

MrP, although it seems ridiculous and painful, if you're in the left hand lane and come across someone in the overtaking lane moving slower than you, the legal requirement is that you pull into the overtaking lane behind them and wait for them to move over.

I was driving to Dublin with a garda friend for a game during the summer and came across this situation with a clear dual carriageway and a person driving in the overtaking lane. My garda friend told me to continue in the driving lane and to give a short beep as I was passing the other car to let him know I was there. He told no garda would pull you for doing this and that it was a quite acceptable manouvre to make. Make what you will of that.

faceman

seamus wrote:

The actual requirement is that the traffic must be moving in queues. So if there is a queue in the overtaking lane (and not just a line of fastish-moving traffic), then you may overtake on the left.

MrP, although it seems ridiculous and painful, if you're in the left hand lane and come across someone in the overtaking lane moving slower than you, the legal requirement is that you pull into the overtaking lane behind them and wait for them to move over.

that may be the case (altho i dont think it is), but no one does it and the gardai arent booking anyone for it. Therefore its an issue.

Wasnt there a thread recently about that awful ad on tv about overtaking? Most people agreed that the ad was poor but should have also covered dual carriageways and motorways. We need an educational campaign to get people to wise up!

seamus

Make what you will of that.

What the Gardai consider "acceptable" and what the law considers "legal" are often two very different things. This can indeed be a good thing as it allows for a certain blind-eye turning in cases where the law may be out of date for modern conditions.

faceman wrote:

that may be the case (altho i dont think it is),

It is. It's not specifically written anywhere, but the regulations specify three conditions where you may overtake on the left, and "When someone is hogging the overtaking lane" is not one of them. In all other cases you are required to overtake on the right. Pedantic? Yep. Painful? Yep. Does anyone do it? Rarely. I think I've done it once or twice.

Henry Ford III

cpoh1 wrote:

I was driving to Dublin with a garda friend for a game during the summer and came across this situation with a clear dual carriageway and a person driving in the overtaking lane. My garda friend told me to continue in the driving lane and to give a short beep as I was passing the other car to let him know I was there. He told no garda would pull you for doing this and that it was a quite acceptable manouvre to make. Make what you will of that.

Good post. I can fully understand why he would have said that.

Devil's advocate here though. Supposing the lane hog decided to pull back into the driving lane when you hooted and a crash ensued at high speed?

Apart from the possibilty of death or injury, I think it's entirely reasonable that a judge would have found you at least partially responsible for any damages. After all you shouldn't have been accelrating past on his/her left hand side.

Just teasing this issue out.

faceman

seamus wrote:

It is. It's not specifically written anywhere, but the regulations specify three conditions where you may overtake on the left, and "When someone is hogging the overtaking lane" is not one of them. In all other cases you are required to overtake on the right. Pedantic? Yep. Painful? Yep. Does anyone do it? Rarely. I think I've done it once or twice.

i havent read it in a while but isnt the wording along the lines of the traffic in the right hand lane is travelling slower than that of the left?

then again the rules of the road book is just an interpretation of the law

seamus

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html

10. (5) A driver may only overtake on the left—

( c ) in slow moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.

I always mix up the regs and the ROTR. The ROTR says "queues", this says "slow-moving traffic". The obvious interpretation of this is that the traffic is moving slowly (i.e. not moving at speeds >= 50km/h), and that there are multiple vehicles in the right-hand lane.

So theoretically if you come across a small convoy of vehicles on the M1, going 40km/h in the overtaking lane, you would be well within your rights to continue driving on past on the left.

However, the words "slow moving traffic" specifically imply that there is some degree of congestion. It's a matter of interpretation. I wonder is there any case law on this?

Henry Ford III

Driving in overtaking lane though, and then darting left into faster moving lane of traffic, only to pull back out again into overtaking lane if/when it eventually starts moving quicker is still undertaking though (in my view).

ambro25

jrar wrote:

I'm not sure if it's law in France, but it's certainly the etiquette on autoroutes to keep your indicator on if you intend to overtake more than one vehicle, and they ALL do it, from the driver of the humble Twingo to those driving powerful sports cars etc. ................and when they're finished overtaking, it's straight back in to the inside lane (bearing in mind most French autoroutes are only 2-lane) as they all seem to know better than to sit in the outside lane a moment longer than is necessary.

The (FR) Law is to keep your indicator on whilever you are overtaking cars (on single, dual and motorways). Points & fine if caught not indicating.

It is also (FR) Law to get back into the 'normal' lane (left for UK/IE) on dual/motorways once the overtaking manoeuver is completed. Points & fine if caught hogging.

Just so's you know

stratos

It's strange the way this turned into a legal argument.I don't like undertaking its risky and you really have to watch the body language of the other car, with a finger loosely on the horn button. But you really see some strange stuff out there and no rotr could cover it.

One of my personal favorites was the guy who walked between my van and the car in front in stationary traffic to cross the road. Now I have a habit of checking my left mirror when people do this as they can't see past my van. I quietly blipped my horn at him.

Luckily he stopped to give me the finger right up to my windscreen, as the motorcycle courier that would have pole axed him sped between me and the kerb, it was so close his clothes flapped. Boy did he look sheepish.

I suppose my point is, and many won't agree good driving is a mixture of rules of the road and common sense and sometimes the two differ.

Henry Ford III

stratos wrote:

It's strange the way this turned into a legal argument.I don't like undertaking its risky and you really have to watch the body language of the other car, with a finger loosely on the horn button. But you really see some strange stuff out there and no rotr could cover it.

One of my personal favorites was the guy who walked between my van and the car in front in stationary traffic to cross the road. Now I have a habit of checking my left mirror when people do this as they can't see past my van. I quietly blipped my horn at him.

Luckily he stopped to give me the finger right up to my windscreen, as the motorcycle courier that would have pole axed him sped between me and the kerb, it was so close his clothes flapped. Boy did he look sheepish.

I suppose my point is, and many won't agree good driving is a mixture of rules of the road and common sense and sometimes the two differ.

Top post.

maidhc

stratos wrote:

I suppose my point is, and many won't agree good driving is a mixture of rules of the road and common sense and sometimes the two differ.

Well said.

It isn't surprising common sense is so often ignored though when the powers that be (Gardai RSA) promote a blind adherence to rules.