uk motorways

stratos

just back from a trip to England lots of motorway driving, what a great experience being in the company of people who know how to use motorways. Why oh why do irish motorways not work (dual carriageways) .
I used the m1 yesterday and cruised by about 10 cars. I WAS NOT IN THE OVERTAKING LANE.
Why can't we get it together. The English drivers are always one step ahead. If they are in the middle and you indicate they move over you over take move back in then they do too. its just so smooth effortless. God help us when we get 3 lanes on the m50 !

Anan1

I know, I know! Funnily enough, the Scots are just like us.

Hotwheels

When we get three lanes it should really be fun
yep the folks in GB know how to use M-ways, strangely enough most Irish drivers I came across in GB stuck to the left lane, unless overtaking. Perhaps its because they know the police are less tolerent of lane hoggers in England...:cool:

stratos

well I think the reason too is in the U.K. lane hogging isn't tolerated, if you do it you will be blown off the road. i have no idea why it's so tolerated here.

stratos

I honestly think the overtaking lane should have mandatory indicating on it. If your in the overtaking lane you should have your indicator on. Maybe at least would wake a few people up.

Greenman

Over here in Belgium you'll be run off the road if you don't move out the overtaking lane. I think driving on the motorways in Ireland requires lots of patience.

jrar

stratos wrote:

I honestly think the overtaking lane should have mandatory indicating on it. If your in the overtaking lane you should have your indicator on. Maybe at least would wake a few people up.

I'm not sure if it's law in France, but it's certainly the etiquette on autoroutes to keep your indicator on if you intend to overtake more than one vehicle, and they ALL do it, from the driver of the humble Twingo to those driving powerful sports cars etc. ................and when they're finished overtaking, it's straight back in to the inside lane (bearing in mind most French autoroutes are only 2-lane) as they all seem to know better than to sit in the outside lane a moment longer than is necessary.

Then again their country is spotless, their roads are a dream to drive on, their signage is second to none - let's face it, it's a cultural thing and some countries have it, and some like ourselves just don't !

Seth Brundle

It all comes down to driver education!

jrar

Hotwheels wrote:

When we get three lanes it should really be fun
yep the folks in GB know how to use M-ways, strangely enough most Irish drivers I came across in GB stuck to the left lane, unless overtaking. Perhaps its because they know the police are less tolerent of lane hoggers in England...:cool:

Yes, I've heard of drivers in the UK being pulled by the police for sitting in the middle lane when the nearside lane was empty etc. - can you imagine the number of charges they could issue here if our uneducated force were to implement something similar for both 2 and 3-lane m-ways ?? Travelling on the N7 between Nass and Newlands X is a joke - inside lane is frequently empty and you end up undertaking cars and trucks who just sit ignorantly in the middle lane (I know the gantries and signage don't help, but lots of the vehicles travel that road every day and thus KNOW that the inside lane is not about to disappear off at any junction prior to junc. 9 (Naas) when the M-way kicks in)

It's like the nearside lane was added for absolutely no reason despite the high cost, heavy workload, and severe upheaval involved in making it happen !!

stratos

U.K. motorways are just such a joy to use in ireland on the M1 you have to undertake maybe 3 or 4 dozzy idiots in a 15 mile motorway. In the u.k. I can travel 300 miles and undertake noone !

stratos

sorry my last post on this my personal rant.

One morning early i was on the new N2 I was in the slow lane no traffic on motorway, I was alone. In the distance 2 vehicles were in the slow lane ahead of me. As i approached them the lead vehicle indicated right and moved into the overtaking lane, bear in mind the motorway is empty. as I approached the rear vehicle and about to indicate to overtake him, he indicates and moves into the overtaking lane as well.

i undertook both of them, when I passed they both moved back into the left lane ???????????????????????????????????

How do you explain this behaviour ?

Atomic Pineapple

stratos wrote:

sorry my last post on this my personal rant.

One morning early i was on the new N2 I was in the slow lane no traffic on motorway, I was alone. In the distance 2 vehicles were in the slow lane ahead of me. As i approached them the lead vehicle indicated right and moved into the overtaking lane, bear in mind the motorway is empty. as I approached the rear vehicle and about to indicate to overtake him, he indicates and moves into the overtaking lane as well.

i undertook both of them, when I passed they both moved back into the left lane ???????????????????????????????????

How do you explain this behaviour ?

its the signs, the white ones, they appear to indicate that the left lane is for getting off at a certain destination, as if the left lane is about to peel off to a junction or something, there could be a white sign over the left lane saying blanchardstown and a blue one over the right lane saying m50, can see how people get confused

Kali

kbannon wrote:

It all comes down to driver education!

I seriously doubt it, there's nothing in the UK that tells people to get the hell out of the overtaking lane.. it just comes with experience when white-van men drive 2inchs away from your bumper (if you drive in Essex every third vehicle is a white-van!). Plus the fact that the average UK and European cars have bigger engines (tax/vrt/insurance all factors) means everyone floors it around
For instance I regularly hit over 85-90mph every morning on the way to work (UK dual carriage-way) and this is on the inside lane, with the typical mondeo/a4/passat diesel long-haulers thundering by over the ton. I've hit 115 on the M6 toll (4 in the morning mind you on probably the emptiest and finest stretch of motorway in the UK) with the odd car still flying by.. it's surreal.
Speeding on motorways and dual-carriageways is commonplace over there and for several reasons: the major roads are maintained to an extremely high standard, speed cameras are typically located ONLY in 30/40mph zones, MOT is yearly so cars (while older) are kept quite well and the traffic cops won't bother you unless you're doing 85+ and/or look like a hazard on the road.

Jumpy

draffodx wrote:

its the signs, the white ones, they appear to indicate that the left lane is for getting off at a certain destination, as if the left lane is about to peel off to a junction or something, there could be a white sign over the left lane saying blanchardstown and a blue one over the right lane saying m50, can see how people get confused

Its not the signs. We have the same thing in Australia and no-one gets confused.

RobAMerc

draffodx wrote:

its the signs, the white ones, they appear to indicate that the left lane is for getting off at a certain destination, as if the left lane is about to peel off to a junction or something, there could be a white sign over the left lane saying blanchardstown and a blue one over the right lane saying m50, can see how people get confused

I agree - I notice alot of drivers drive based on what the signs say and signage here is totally arsed up.
As draffodx says - if you were to follow them verbatim you would be in the right lane for going past the next exit and left only for getting off - its feckin stupid.

Blenchardstown M50
| | | |
| | | |
\ / \ /

So some drivers think "I am going straight on, I should stay right", thats why so many cars join the M50 go straight to the outside lane and only leave on the approach to their junction.

MrPudding

To be honest, the roads in the UK can be frustrating sometimes, but I think that might be because they are normally very good.

It is generally the case that cruising at 85mph on the motorway is OK. Most people will do this and I have passed several police cars doing that kind of speed with no issue.

As others have mentioned, drivers tend to be very good at moving to the left and things really do move a lot better. With the exception of when traffic is really heavy it is possible to make excellent progress more or less at you own pace. Driver over here realise that speed enforcement is for the police...

MrP

bazz26

Not surprised really. Remember this is the same country where you can do your driving test, fail it and still legally drive home.

Maybe motorway/dual carriageway testing should be added to the standard driving test? The driving test seems to be quite slow moving with the times since better quality roads such as motorways, etc are becoming more common now in post Celtic Tiger Ireland.

Of course not a total solution however as there are still thousands of people out there on full licences who simply don't have a clue.

R.O.R

I'd say it's mainly because motorways have been around in the UK for so much longer than over here. Like many British people, I grew up being ferried around the UK motorway network by my Dad and learnt how to drive on them from watching him. He probably did the same from his Dad - it just seems that most people started driving on them correctly from the day they were opened.

Think we'll have a good few problems in coming years here unless enforcement is put in place as youngsters start learning from their parents to sit in the overtaking lane on all the Motorways

Henry Ford III

stratos wrote:

sorry my last post on this my personal rant.

One morning early i was on the new N2 I was in the slow lane no traffic on motorway, I was alone. In the distance 2 vehicles were in the slow lane ahead of me. As i approached them the lead vehicle indicated right and moved into the overtaking lane, bear in mind the motorway is empty. as I approached the rear vehicle and about to indicate to overtake him, he indicates and moves into the overtaking lane as well.

i undertook both of them, when I passed they both moved back into the left lane ???????????????????????????????????

How do you explain this behaviour ?

No idea.

Undertaking isn't allowed either btw.

quarryman

Henry Ford III wrote:

No idea.

Undertaking isn't allowed either btw.

get off your high horse.

scaldybelt

I moved to the UK about 7 yrs ago as a young driver with a few years experience on irish roads. Had a 1.5 civic at the time and thought I could enjoy the outside lane of the M4 at 75-80mph each morning on the commute to work.

After a few experiences of larger, faster cars flashing me to get out the way of their 85mph+ speeds, I learned very quickly that the outside lane is only for overtaking and the faster motors in society over there.

Needless to say, I ended up buying a few tdi Passats and a 3.2 Honda Legend in the subsequent years so I could earn my place in the outside lane.

Now I'm home and miss that respected lane.:mad:

Alun

R.O.R wrote:

I'd say it's mainly because motorways have been around in the UK for so much longer than over here. Like many British people, I grew up being ferried around the UK motorway network by my Dad and learnt how to drive on them from watching him. He probably did the same from his Dad - it just seems that most people started driving on them correctly from the day they were opened.

Did anyone see the series of programs on BBC4 called "The Secret Life of the Motorway"? The first section of the M1 opened IIRC in 1959, and that very same year they already had leaflets explaining how to drive on them, a special supplement to the Highway Code called "Motorway Driving" or something like that, and TV ads explaining lane discipline!! That was nearly 50 years ago!

I wouldn't say motorway lane discipline in the UK was perfect by any means, but it's certainly a damn sight better than here, and you'll rarely find the dawdlers crawling along at 80km/h that you regularly come across here. Like others have said, 80-85mph is quite normal over there, and as long as you're driving carefully, your chances of being pulled over a pretty low.

jrar

Regarding motorway driving in Ireland, there's lots of driver-types being profiled here - David Attenboough would have a field dat putting names on them and describing their behaviour !

Anyone recognise this one ??

They sit in the overtaking lane although the road ahead is clear and the left-hand lane is empty

You approach from behind, but there's no movement

A quick flash of lights to wake them up, and they immediately pull into the l/h lane, no problem, no dirty looks, no fingers, no rage, etc.

As soon as you overtake them and move to the l/h lane, they're already back out in the overtaking lane having resumed their original position !!

Henry Ford III

quarryman wrote:

get off your high horse.

Not a chance. I don't undertake. Ever.

R.O.R

Henry Ford III wrote:

Not a chance. I don't undertake. Ever.

So, if you are on the inside lane on the M50 which starts moving and the outside is stopped - you'll sit where you are until the outside lane starts moving? Same difference in my opinion.

peasant

One thing that's scary about UK motorways though is how closely packed everybody zooms around on them ...safe distance ..whazzat?

Also on some motorways the lanes are very narrow, they barely accomodate a truck ...gets a bit scary when you find yourself in the middle lane wedged between two trucks ...either of them sneezes and you're history

Henry Ford III

R.O.R wrote:

So, if you are on the inside lane on the M50 which starts moving and the outside is stopped - you'll sit where you are until the outside lane starts moving? Same difference in my opinion.

No. I think you need to check the definition of undertaking, and perhaps alter your opinion.

kdouglas

R.O.R wrote:

So, if you are on the inside lane on the M50 which starts moving and the outside is stopped - you'll sit where you are until the outside lane starts moving? Same difference in my opinion.

Edit: beaten to it by Henry Ford

craichoe

Aye, shouldn't undertake either lads, if someones infront of you and their in the overtaking lane, you should treat it as being behind them with no room to overtake.

Undertaking is dangerous too and you should not do it.

AFAIK, only time you can undertake is when turning onto a slip road a short distance ahead, or when traffic in the overtake lane is completely stopped.

ballooba

Kali wrote:

I've hit 115 on the M6 toll (4 in the morning mind you on probably the emptiest and finest stretch of motorway in the UK) with the odd car still flying by.. it's surreal.

That's an eerily quiet motorway. It's like that film 28 Days Later sometimes.

dak

stratos wrote:

sorry my last post on this my personal rant.

One morning early i was on the new N2 I was in the slow lane no traffic on motorway, I was alone. In the distance 2 vehicles were in the slow lane ahead of me. As i approached them the lead vehicle indicated right and moved into the overtaking lane, bear in mind the motorway is empty. as I approached the rear vehicle and about to indicate to overtake him, he indicates and moves into the overtaking lane as well.

i undertook both of them, when I passed they both moved back into the left lane ???????????????????????????????????

How do you explain this behaviour ?

Maybe ZIG and ZAG were driving!!!:D

dak

craichoe wrote:

Aye, shouldn't undertake either lads, if someones infront of you and their in the overtaking lane, you should treat it as being behind them with no room to overtake.

Undertaking is dangerous too and you should not do it.

AFAIK, only time you can undertake is when turning onto a slip road a short distance ahead, or when traffic in the overtake lane is completely stopped.

Maybe I'm wrong but i think you can only undertake when traffic is stopped or undertake without changing lanes when the traffic on the outer lane is travelling less then 30mph.

Henry Ford III

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

TheBazman

First of all I agree that we shouldn't undertake, however I have done it on a rare occasion. The only reason is that when I travel to work the 3 lane Naas rd is generally fairly quite so I travel along in the inside/leftmost lane where possible. However I often come across slower middle lane hoggers sauntering along, and as a result I have to cross across two lanes to the outside and back in to the inside lane. It's just frustrating.

Also there is a hope that on the rare occasion that I do undertake that the person who is in the middle lane will have their attention brought to the fact that their is plenty of room on the inside lane and decide to use it. Alas, more often than not, as I look in my rear view mirror, the seem completely oblivious

MrPudding

Henry Ford III wrote:

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Enlighten us oh great one....

MrP

dak

craichoe wrote:

Aye, shouldn't undertake either lads, if someones infront of you and their in the overtaking lane, you should treat it as being behind them with no room to overtake.

Undertaking is dangerous too and you should not do it.

AFAIK, only time you can undertake is when turning onto a slip road a short distance ahead, or when traffic in the overtake lane is completely stopped.

Rules of the road allow you as an exception to undertake if the traffic in the inner lane is moving faster than the overtaking lane providing NB that the outer lane traffic is not moving at a normal speed.

Henry Ford III

MrPudding wrote:

Enlighten us oh great one....

MrP

Read your Rules of the Road.

Marcus.Aurelius

Henry Ford III wrote:

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Twice that is still very little knowledge. Undertaking is undesirable, but necessitated by the morons that are irish drivers.

Sorry

Henry Ford III

maoleary wrote:

Twice that is still very little knowledge. Undertaking is undesirable, but necessitated by the morons that are irish drivers.

Sorry

Interesting view.

Undertaking is illegal, not just undesirable. Just because some drivers perform badly doesn't give anyone the right to break the law to get past them.

R.O.R

maoleary wrote:

Twice that is still very little knowledge. Undertaking is undesirable, but necessitated by the morons that are irish drivers.

Sorry

Here here, now lets leave Henry doing 80kmph in the outside lane because the person in front won't move out of the way - while the rest of us make decent safe progress at a steady speed in the inside lane.

Henry Ford III

You forgot to add "whilst breaking the law!"

MrPudding

Henry Ford III wrote:

You forgot to add "whilst breaking the law!"

Not always. The law allows for passing on the left in certain circumstances. As far as I am concerned anytime you pass someone on the left your are undertaking them. Therefore undertaking is not alway illegal.

So if you are in the inside lane doing whatever speed and there is a muppet in the outside lane going slower what do you do?

MrP

dak

MrPudding wrote:

Not always. The law allows for passing on the left in certain circumstances. As far as I am concerned anytime you pass someone on the left your are undertaking them. Therefore undertaking is not alway illegal.

So if you are in the inside lane doing whatever speed and there is a muppet in the outside lane going slower what do you do?

MrP

I agree that that the law allows undertaking in certain circumstances. The rules of the road are not precise enough . You may undertake legally if the inner lane traffic is moving faster than the outer lane providing the outer lane traffic is not moving at its "normal" speed. "Normal " speed is not specified ...I thought the old rules of the road specified 30mph .Anyone got a copy of the old rules ?

Henry Ford III

MrPudding wrote:

Not always. The law allows for passing on the left in certain circumstances. As far as I am concerned anytime you pass someone on the left your are undertaking them. Therefore undertaking is not alway illegal.

So if you are in the inside lane doing whatever speed and there is a muppet in the outside lane going slower what do you do?

MrP

With respect your interpretation of the law is irrelevant.

IAM book says "poor lane discipline is probably the worst feature of motorway driving in Ireland...if you come up behind a lane hog who fails to move over when there is plenty of space available, do not resort to aggressive tactics or attempt to teach a lesson. Flashing headlight, tailgating, or sounding your horn is not the way to get lane hogs to move over, and can often make them more stubborn....making a point by slicing across a lane hog's bows after you eventually pass is silly, and overtaking on the inside is illegal".

MrPudding

Henry Ford III wrote:

With respect your interpretation of the law is irrelevant.

IAM book says "poor lane discipline is probably the worst feature of motorway driving in Ireland...if you come up behind a lane hog who fails to move over when there is plenty of space available, do not resort to aggressive tactics or attempt to teach a lesson. Flashing headlight, tailgating, or sounding your horn is not the way to get lane hogs to move over, and can often make them more stubborn....making a point by slicing across a lane hog's bows after you eventually pass is silly, and overtaking on the inside is illegal".

Very interesting. How about you answer my question.

MrP

seamus

dak wrote:

I agree that that the law allows undertaking in certain circumstances. The rules of the road are not precise enough . You may undertake legally if the inner lane traffic is moving faster than the outer lane providing the outer lane traffic is not moving at its "normal" speed. "Normal " speed is not specified ...I thought the old rules of the road specified 30mph .Anyone got a copy of the old rules ?

The actual requirement is that the traffic must be moving in queues. So if there is a queue in the overtaking lane (and not just a line of fastish-moving traffic), then you may overtake on the left.

MrP, although it seems ridiculous and painful, if you're in the left hand lane and come across someone in the overtaking lane moving slower than you, the legal requirement is that you pull into the overtaking lane behind them and wait for them to move over.

Henry Ford III

dak wrote:

I agree that that the law allows undertaking in certain circumstances. The rules of the road are not precise enough . You may undertake legally if the inner lane traffic is moving faster than the outer lane providing the outer lane traffic is not moving at its "normal" speed. "Normal " speed is not specified ...I thought the old rules of the road specified 30mph .Anyone got a copy of the old rules ?

No mention of 30 mph in ROTR.

Henry Ford III

MrPudding wrote:

Very interesting. How about you answer my question.

MrP

I just did.

You must stay behind the lane hog.

Henry Ford III

seamus wrote:

The actual requirement is that the traffic must be moving in queues. So if there is a queue in the overtaking lane (and not just a line of fastish-moving traffic), then you may overtake on the left.

MrP, although it seems ridiculous and painful, if you're in the left hand lane and come across someone in the overtaking lane moving slower than you, the legal requirement is that you pull into the overtaking lane behind them and wait for them to move over.

Agreed 100% Seamus.

faceman

in my experience its seems to be only be irish road users who dont know how to use any road with more than 2 lanes correctly.

How many people still say the "fast lane"?

cpoh1

seamus wrote:

MrP, although it seems ridiculous and painful, if you're in the left hand lane and come across someone in the overtaking lane moving slower than you, the legal requirement is that you pull into the overtaking lane behind them and wait for them to move over.

I was driving to Dublin with a garda friend for a game during the summer and came across this situation with a clear dual carriageway and a person driving in the overtaking lane. My garda friend told me to continue in the driving lane and to give a short beep as I was passing the other car to let him know I was there. He told no garda would pull you for doing this and that it was a quite acceptable manouvre to make. Make what you will of that.