Digital Performer

Maccattack

cant remember now. it was about 8 years ago.

frobisher

Jtsuited: You're a breath away from a 2 week ban. You are entitled to your opinion but please be civil.

jtsuited

that is ridiculous. i was civil. if you want to ban me for trying to have my questions answered in a fairly reasonable discussion fair enough.

If you can point out 1 place where i was un'civil' where the point was irrelavant go ahead, I'll be quiet.
But any time that it was quite heated was because i felt that my points were not being rebutted in anyway.

frobisher

jtsuited wrote:

that is ridiculous. i was civil. if you want to ban me for trying to have my questions answered in a fairly reasonable discussion fair enough.

If you can point out 1 place where i was un'civil' where the point was irrelavant go ahead, I'll be quiet.
But any time that it was quite heated was because i felt that my points were not being rebutted in anyway.

Hhmm... Well I think you should reconsider. And for the record it's not about getting you to be quite. This is a discussion forum after all. It's about people being cool with each other. You don't get to break the rules of the charter just because you think your point is more relevant someone else's. If you think you do then just don't partake. With all the experience you tell us you have in pro-audio it'd be great to have you in our community here but the reality is that you're being very arrogant towards those who disagree with you. Feel free to take the warning to the powers that be in the feedback forum. Here are the examples you ask for:

are people really recommending someone to get cubase instead of protools? That is honestly the biggest pile of ****e I've ever heard.

And are you really saying that Cubase SX is better than LE? Really? You must be completely bloody deaf!!

And if you are honestly saying the Cubase Sx route is the better option to go for you are either
1) Deluded
2)Deaf
3) neglecting the massive industry trend towards protools Le or Logic in all areas.
4)maybe a combination of all of the above.

never heard of any of those studios. Case closed. Bye now!

Now let's get back on topic.....

jtsuited

fair enough but i still feel that those points were extremely relevant, even if they were admittedly phrased a bit strongly.
to be honest, as the discussion developed i felt that there were black and white statements about pro audio being made by someone who did not have near enough experience in pro audio to make such statements and offer them as advice.
surely you can see my point?

"but the reality is that you're being very arrogant towards those who disagree with you"

excuse me but i took issue with someone who was saying things that were simply not true.
On the whole, i took exception to someone saying 'protools users don't even consider LE as protools" (or something to that effect).

Now speaking as a HD user (and one who knows many others), I can categorically state that that is untrue.

it was not 'my opinion is more valid so listen', it was the fact that the other person was clearly out of his depth and offering unsound advice (by saying things that simply were not true to back up his argument).

While i would agree that it may come across as arrogance, that tends to be the way it comes across when arguing with someone who in reality does not have a fraction of the experience you do yet speaks as if they do.

and to be honest i'd rather not post here in the fear that i'll be issued with a ban for something that certainly does not warrant it. I'm not saying my behaviour was perfect but certainly did not warrant your threat.

Maccattack

Well I hope you continue to post here and believe frob is being a bit harsh.

Thanks for your input to date.

sei046

Jt to be fair you were a little arrogant and there was no real discussion going on there. You made a few comments that kind of hinted that you didnt have as much experience as you go on about.

From post 1 you didnt care so much about what the topic was about and cared more about trying to destroy anyone who tried to advise people in a direction you didnt take. Thats what annoyed me most. The fact that you would rather fight for LE than you would take into the guys question. I think we all were fairly lenient with the way you went on in the spirit of boards and I am prepared to forget the whole thing and just get on with it if you can admit that you were wrong (not about LE, thats your opinion against other peoples) but about the way you acted and your disregard for conduct or the Guys needs?

sei046

I dunno i dont think he is being harsh but its important that people are being picked up on this. It would be a shame if you stopped posting but you prob shouldnt have taken the arguement to a personal level im sure we both agree. Lets move on and worry about Pro Audio and nothing else

sei046

Mac did you think any more on it?
Baz has Logic Express on adverts. Any Good for you?

jtsuited

sei046 wrote:

Jt to be fair you were a little arrogant and there was no real discussion going on there. You made a few comments that kind of hinted that you didnt have as much experience as you go on about.

Example? Honestly I've got a lot more real world experience in this area than you ever will have.
So much so that I really don't think there's much point arguing with someone like you.

sei046 wrote:

From post 1 you didnt care so much about what the topic was about and cared more about trying to destroy anyone who tried to advise people in a direction you didnt take. Thats what annoyed me most.

No from post 1 I took offence to your patronizing attitude and misinformation. I'd say this is the first time i've ever gotten into such a heated debate on boards (in fact probably the first time i was in a serious debate on boards period).

Anyone reading this thread could see your rude attitude coming through in this thread. You also repeatedly ignored my questions yet still hammered your point home repeatedly after me categorically stating it was untrue.

I'm really done with this now, and that ban threat was so far out of line. I really am dissappointed that this forum would regard good manners so far above rational argument.

sei046

I have no idea what questions you keep saying i didnt answer. I was in no way patronizing and i never once misinformed anyone. I thin anyone reading the thread will see that. If you took offence from post 1 you shouldnt be on this board imo. Its not the type of board people should be able to take offence in. Audio matters, that is it. If i dont like PTLE i say it and am not gonna worry whether i am going to offend you or not.

Will you just suck it up and move one. Not being harsh but noone here wants you to stop posting. If i read your posts i will ignore the
"ive got more experience blah..." and focus on your recordings with different daws and hardware. You wont be annoying me. I love the way you made comments like that without knowing me which is why I didnt refer to them as an arguement.

So Let this be the final word. I would not be surprised if this thread gets locked. Its probably no harm and Let Mac start a new one letting us know how he got on

jtsuited

sei046 wrote:

I I love the way you made comments like that without knowing me

Anyone who didn't know what a 002 rack was 14 days ago, is not experienced enough to harp on about the downfalls of PTLE. Simple as that.
I think based on your previous threads it's very safe to say you don't have near enough experience to be saying what you were saying so authoritively.

sei046

if you plug in a POS hardware unit do you know its a POS?
If you are told straight off the bat that your track count is limited, there is no delay compensation, no bounce to disk features near other daws, very limited midi etc. do you not know its going to be a bad choice?

and what i said was not the be all and end all of Pro audio. i was forcing nothing down anyones throat. That was you. You really really need to move on. I have no idea what you can learn of other people with an attitude like this. Especially the "well my friends use this an this so there." mentality. Please for your sake and the forums. Move on

jtsuited

you're misquoting me now.

Macattack, my sincerest apologies in this hijacking of the thread, but i think there may have been some material in this debate that was useful, albeit a small amount.

cornbb

As I don't think this thread is going to get any closer to answering the OP's original question I'm going to lock it now. There is a new thread on DAW pros and cons now, everyone is free to post their opinions (and thats all they are guys, opinions) there in a mature and helpful manner.

cornbb

Thread re-opened at OP's request.

I'd like to remind everyone of the original topic entitled 'Digital Performer':

Macattack wrote:

I will be buying a recording set up next month. Want to go Pro Tools but am not happy with the quality of the mic pres and convertors on the 002/3.

So would have to buy extra pres and convertors.

Then I got to thinking that maybe I could use another application for tracking then drop it into PT for everything else.

Digital Performer looks good and there are no restrictions to which interface you can use. So rather than having to buy a digidesign interface plus extra pres and convertors i could just buy the pres i want.

Has anyone had any experience with DP?

Now please try to be helpful. Any further bickering will not be tolerated on this thread.

Maccattack

Thanks Corn. All on topic input has been very helpfull.

Im maybe more unsure than ever! but thats ok. I asked for opinions and got them.

Its a tough decision. Logic or DP seem to be great choices from music composition perspectives which would be very important to me.

I often write as i record.

But getting into PT(LE) would allow me to move towards a more pro set up. I was hoping there would be a way to avoid having o buy a digi interface. Seems not though.


Were all friends here.

cornbb

I must say I've never heard such an emotive debate over DAW preferences before Of course such serious debate is welcome here as long as it is relavant and civil.

I've never used PTLE so I won't offer an opinion of it. My experiences of using PT are limited compared to my experience with Cubase and Logic Pro but I got the impression that its geared heavily towards audio work and that the workflow around MIDI and composition work are secondary to this. I can however empathise with jsuited's point about pro studio compatibility. So I see Macattack's predicament. I guess it boils down to which is more important, decent composition/MIDI support or pro studio compatibility. At the end of the day, all DAWs mentioned here will get the job done, albeit in a different way.

Maccattack

How much weight do you put on the opinions of your heroes?

I'd never even heard of DP until last week. It was only when I was browsing Bob Mould's website that i saw he recommends it.

'If its good enough for Bob...' thought I.

I dont know. Im starting to think Logic might be the best option as I could be spending an unneccessary fortune on stuff I dont need (PTLE interface).

Logic is widely used by pro's. I also heard a rumour that Apple are gearing up to make Logic a PT killer. Doubtfull I know but at least I would be assured of its survival.

I dont know...

teamdresch

Having fun guys?

Anyway.

Seems to me that you're looking at two questions.

1. Hardware. You want to avoid using a 002/003 because of concerns with the conversion and preamps. But you want to have the option to use PTLE for mixing.
How many tracks do you expect to record at once? If it's 8 or less, then you could buy an 8-channel ADAT converter and some nice preamps. You'd be avoiding the audio end of the 002/3, while still having the option of tracking or mixing in PTLE.
Any other software like Logic, Cubase etc. can use the 002/3 just like it would any other interface. So you could buy Logic or whatever and use it on the 002/003 without the need to buy another interface.

2. Software
You know what I'd do? I'd try a bunch of different software packages and see what I like best. There's advantages and disadvantages to each one. Simple as that. Find the one that suits you best.

Maccattack

Interesting article on PT v Logic

frobisher

This thread has taken in alot of scope! Here's my tuppence worth.

There are people out there using every DAW's in the marketplace making great music every single day. It's a tool not an end product. The overwhelming consensus that I've come across on line and from talking to other users across a variety of DAW's is that the difference in sound quality between them is negligeble at this stage. I'm not saying that is the case personally as I haven't double blindtested every DAW in lab conditions, but it is what a lot of people think. Although it doesn't take a genius to guess that when you get beyond the pro-sumer products into the real high end gear you're going to hear improvements because like everything in life you get what you pay for. Products like these aren't designed to meet an ideal retail budget so they get to pay extra attention without cutting corners to important areas like summing. Does this mean that the DAW's aimed at pro-sumers aren't up the job? Absolutely not. PT has become industry standard for a variety of reasons but that doesn't mean that is the only one capable of producing high quality recorded music. You would be doing yourself a favour by using it, it's an immense product, but you wouldn't be letting yourself down at all by going with many of the others either.

I would go along with some of the above advice and trying out demo's and seeing how you feel about them and even if they sound different to you. At the end of the day it's your opinion that matters more than anyone elses. Here's an example: I go onto alot of the other pro-audio websites and I always laugh a little at people saying that POD's simply aren't good enough to be used for serious recording. It's completely untrue and I know that 100% because my ears tell me so. I don't care what anyone else says. Pro-audio is bombarded relentlessly with marketing and people who absolutely, completely, utterly, without doubt swearing that they know what sounds best (usually what they own at that particular time!). Do the best you can to ignore it (especially the digital end of things) and go with what works for you. You'll rarely go wrong and develop confidence in your own ears. I will add one caveat to this. If you wish to have a career as an engineer or producer then it's important to know PT. Even if you prefer using something else it's a must have in most pro engineers tool bags.

As a purely practical response to your question, I've no expereince with Digital Performer at all. I will say that the idea of tracking in one DAW and mixing in another seems a little unweildy to me (not to mention expensive!). Ever since moving from analouge to digital the line between when I track and when I mix has become very, very blurred and the benifits of this could be lost by moving from one paltform to another. As for hardware options, there's so much out there it's incredible. What's your budget? How many tracks do you need to record at once realistically?

Maccattack

Budget wise id have about 5k at the moment. For that i need to factor in the mac as well.

Inputs wise id only need two right now but that will change within a few months when i start recording a full band. But saying that i would probably have more money to spend as well.

artvandulet

I have a miniscule amount of experience compared to these guys but anyway...

I've been collaborationg with someone else. I use LE. He uses SX3. I only have an Mbox, he has a presonus firepod. He has more cash than I do:D
When we need a few tracks (more than 2) for live instrument recording we use SX. Do whatever needs to be done with it and save as an AAF project.
I take the AAF into LE using DigiTranslator. This way I can open this one AAF file and get all the channels of audio into LE without having to import seperate audio files. Its pretty cool.

So what Im saying is, if its any use, it really isnt that big an issue recording with something other than LE and then editing etc in LE.
But the reason I do it is more down to budget than anything else:D

This may not be relevant to you at all but just making you aware of AAF if you're not familiar.


Am I missing something here or can people using Cubase not just bring an AAF into all these PT only studios?

jtsuited

Maccattack wrote:

But getting into PT(LE) would allow me to move towards a more pro set up. I was hoping there would be a way to avoid having o buy a digi interface. Seems not though.

Macattack, Protools is **** with midi, however when used w/ableton it is an absolute monster. Check out my sig and you'll hear a track that was done in ableton and final mixing in protools (mastering etc.).

As an aside (but probably worth considerin) , ableton is the big one (apart from logic), used by the biggest names in many genres of electronic music and i think it'd be perfect for what you want.
As far as a digi interface goes, the mbox mini is pretty cheap and good. And if you want to record into ableton you can use a different interface. Then use ReWire to get the stuff into protools and away you go.
Like I say there's a rough demo mix on my myspace and there are no samples used whatsoever.

BTw, i think it's a fairly good guess to say that APple are going to really up Logic when leopard comes out.

jtsuited

since you mentioned your budget i'll make a suggestion

top of the range macbook pro (2.4ghz, 2Gb Ram) €2400
Mbox2 Mini (and all the software that comes with it- PTLE, ableton lite version)
€320
Upgrade to full version of ableton €230

Total 2950
That leaves you 2k to get a good set of monitors (the most important thing), other DAW if you want:) , a nice midi controller etc., and another interface if needed.

With this setup you'll be havin an identical setup (apart from the mbox) to a huge number of the biggest names in electronic music (Hawtin, Dj Shadow, Gary Numan!!!, even bloody carl cox has this setup), and have the perfect audio editor in PTLE.

Now I know the artists I've mentioned there might be a load of pants but they're all gazillionaires and are using a <5k setup at the core of their systems. You must wonder why. (Digidesign don't do endorsements with any of them)

Maccattack

thanks for the further input. artvan your post is very relevant. I didnt know that. thanks.

I should have mentioned that i dont need to factor monitors into my budget as i have that covered already as well as mics and a bit of outboard gear (comps etc)

You know the mbox mini is a very good idea! An interface that gets me into PTLE without wasting a load of dosh. Great suggestion. I could also use it to demo and stuff if im moving about.


Heres me thinking I would have to buy a 002 or 3 just to have LE. Why didnt I think of the Mbox before??? Why didnt anyone suggest it before??? Wow...

That would free up some cash for good pre amps. Yipee \0/.

---

Ableton: I was just reading a bit about it tonight. Not another option!!

I listened to your stuff the other day. Sounds great on my laptop but its just with the cr@ppy speakers. Still sounds excellent though.


What interfaces are those guys you mentioned using? Mostof there stuff is samples though isnt it?

jtsuited

Maccattack wrote:

Ableton: I was just reading a bit about it tonight. Not another option!!

I listened to your stuff the other day. Sounds great on my laptop but its just with the cr@ppy speakers. Still sounds excellent though.


What interfaces are those guys you mentioned using? Mostof there stuff is samples though isnt it?

oh if you want to check out 'proper' music go to myspace.com/jefftimoney. All done using those dodgy converters and pres that cause such a ruckos round here.

sorry for not mentionin the mbox thing before. They are bloody great. Personally if i was in your position i might get the mbox2 pro. Firewire and has a few more ins/outs.
oh and the mbox bundle gives you Reason adapted (which is like a stripped down version of reason but more than enough synths, drum machines etc.) aswell as the other stuff.

I could be completely wrong but I presume most of those guys are using the 002, but as you say a lot of their stuff is comin from inside the box etc. (not samples per se! ,[apart from shadow]). Also a lot of people get Apogee converters and different pres using the adat optical i/o on the 002. I did this last year for a big drum session using the apogee rosetta converter and neve 1081 (which are one of the less transparent neves) preamps and the difference was almost negligible. From just speaking to guys in the retail market(hearsay I know), I can assure you that a 002 has been in the signal path on a huge amount of records released in the past three years.

Also if you do move up to a 002 or whatever, you can be using your own fancy converters and pres (through the adat i/o) which means you'll be running a powerful rig (if you get the MBP-upgradeable to 4GB of RAm!!!) with a customisable signal path.

THere's a lot of bad press on internet forums about the quality of the 002 pres and converters but until you're using uber-expensive stuff like u-87's or DPA's and recording top of the range instruments in perfect rooms you needn't worry about such a relatively small issue.

Edit: Oh and the mbox2 pres are ever so slightly better than the 002. I was as surprised as you are. I have both sitting here beside me and I have a/b'd them a few times. I'd actually say I couldn't tell the difference blindfolded.

Maccattack

Ive just been watching the Live videos on the Ableton website. It looks excellent. Very smooth working environment. Very much geared towards helping the creative flow. I like what I see so far...

Maccattack

Hows this for a basic set up (to get started)

Macbook Pro
Mbox 2 (with PTLE)
Mackie Control Universal
Ableton Live - im very impressed.

Id have to get at least the Mbox 2 as the Mbox mini has no midi capabilities. The Mackie is useless without it.

use this to get started learning the programmes. I have pre recorded stuff i could work on.

Then a few months down the track start buying good convertors and pre amps.

What do you guys think? Am I forgetting something??