Digital Performer

Maccattack

I will be buying a recording set up next month. Want to go Pro Tools but am not happy with the quality of the mic pres and convertors on the 002/3.

So would have to buy extra pres and convertors.

Then I got to thinking that maybe I could use another application for tracking then drop it into PT for everything else.

Digital Performer looks good and there are no restrictions to which interface you can use. So rather than having to buy a digidesign interface plus extra pres and convertors i could just buy the pres i want.

Has anyone had any experience with DP?

sei046

i reccomend SX3 with a project mix. Brill setup for what you want

teamdresch

You could go into a 002/3 via ADAT or SPDIF.
Avoid the converters that way.

Maccattack

sei046 wrote:

i reccomend SX3 with a project mix. Brill setup for what you want

how so bro?

sei046

Cubase Sx is really the head Daw in that area. Very Flexible and very powerful. The projectmix integrates very well with it but i cant really vouch for the pres and Converters. Used it once and they seemed fine. as a controller it seems pretty good.

Baz_Masterplan

Logic Pro is the way to go.

sei046

I eat Logics for breakfast before heading out to do a good days work on SX

Baz_Masterplan

Whatever. Cubase is good enjoy it.

Logic rules my friend. The Nile is river in Egypt.

sei046

grammar. Logic had a good few endorsers throughout ireland until recently. Its not a bad program, it just isnt as user friendly or powerful as SX

jtsuited

are people really recommending someone to get cubase instead of protools?

That is honestly the biggest pile of ****e I've ever heard. The mic pres on the 002/003 are really quite good. Far better than anything else i've heard in the same price field.
Check out the mic pres and converters on the 002 again. I've a/b'd them with many other pres and converters (including the hd 192's) and there's not enough of a difference to even speak about.

A good quality mic into a 002 is not a million miles from the hd 192's.

sei046

The pres on the digi stuff are a good bit behind a dedicated pre to be fair. Ive found none of the pres on the PM, 002/003 or FW are really any better than each other. Its a great deal for the price but the ADDA and Pres are not great. And Le is lightyears behind SX. We all know that. Going from LE to SX is like gettin away from a thundering bit*h of a girlfriend!

sei046

i love the way people say PT and not PT LE! its so cute

jtsuited

sei046 wrote:

i love the way people say PT and not PT LE! its so cute

Erm have you used LE and HD side by side? Feck all difference apart from the power (obviously) and the plugin format.
I happen to have a hd system set up at home at the moment AND an LE and for all intents and purposes it really is not a big deal to not differentiate explicitly on a forum like this.

And are you really saying that Cubase SX is better than LE? Really?

You must be completely bloody deaf!!

sei046

Look in this guys situation his money would be better served with an SX or even Performer rig over the LE rig. Anyone who works with big projects involving lots of variables will have a pain in their ass with LE. No Delay Compensation? Forget it.

I could be wrong but does LE have a 24 track limit?

Baz_Masterplan

sei046 wrote:

grammar. Logic had a good few endorsers throughout ireland until recently. Its not a bad program, it just isnt as user friendly or powerful as SX

A few good endorsers throughout Ireland. Its hardly the Digital music hub of the world. Why would anyone care about that? Apple is underrepresented in Ireland except for pods ec.

It is more powerful and more flexible then SX but it like all things worthwhile takes a bit of getting used to.

Tis the pro choice for music creation (not recording, I know pro-tools). Read Sound on Sound, Future Music, Music Tech, Computer music. 9 out of 10 interviews with pros in these mags use Logic.

Anyway....

sei046

Whats so special about it? how come its so flexible? and some of its features? i only used it briefly so i must have overlooked it. and im not even being sarcastic!

cornbb

I'm a Cubase man myself so I'd go for that anyday over Logic Pro, which I used for a good few projects. But there were some things I preferred about Logic, I think the automation is friendlier than it is in Cubase for a start. But I don't trust its audio engine for one thing.

I never liked Pro Tools but I rarely do purely recorded audio stuff anyway. So I'll recommend Cubase too. But I've also heard good things about DP from friends who've used it.

Horses for courses I guess.

sei046

i have heard good things about all of them. What didnt you like about the automation? i actually really like it

cornbb

I do like the automation is cubase but I still preferred the automation in Logic. All the different parameter curves per track are superimposed and changed via a drop down as opposed to cubase's nested side-by-side automation. Also in cubase the various shapes (sine, triangle etc) are quite crude compared to the smooth curves that can be drawn in logic. But that is one of the few things I prefer about logic. I suspect it depends on what people are used to, to a large extent.

sei046

i like the sound of the superimposed jobby. IIt is a better idea alright, would take up less room. But you can use more shapes than what you were saying and can get more detailed curves in the fade menu. you can even make your own.

Baz_Masterplan

Spose at the end of the days lads they are all brushes and it depends on the artist. Both packages are more than capable of producing release quality music. Its the music that counts.

For me the plugins do it for me with Logic and I now like to restrict my options with Instruments so that the creative process is not lost in options. I know other people love Ableton for instance but all of the effects sound metalic to me. I few programs for sale if anyone wants them. They are on Adverts as I don't use them since getting Logic Pro.

Cheers.

sei046

well i love the way cubase deals with effects and instruments. The way it deals with Midi and Vst is top notch. They are Daws and i am not a huge believer in how Cubase SOUNDS or how Logic SOUNDS. thats pres and ADDA. I just like my DAW to be easy to use and help improve the workflow

jtsuited

Baz_Masterplan wrote:

Both packages are more than capable of producing release quality music. .

Cheers.

While that is true, Pro Tools LE, Logic and Ableton are the more commonly used programs for professional quality releases. Cubase is hardly used at all. Although it is very popular with amateur project studios.

And Sei, your 'sound' is actually very much determined by the sequencer you use simply because of the way the mix is summed by the program. Each sequencer has its own mixing algorithm- for instance ableton is regarded as an incredible production/composition tool, but when it comes to mixing it gets a bit muddy, hence the reason it's combined as a rewire slave for most commercial release productions.

I used SX about 5 months ago and it did not have in any way the same clarity as Pro Tools LE. I was using the exact same monitors and D/A's as i do with LE and to be honest it just had that horrible amateur sounding cubase sound (i was using cubase since the vst 5 version, and finally got away from it).

Now Sei, considering only recently you were asking what exactly the 002 was (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055103875), you seemed to have garnered an in-depth knowledge of the preamps and ADDA's in a matter of days.
Honestly you really can't underestimate the difference in actual sonic quality between the sequencers. As was posted somewhere above, some people regard ableton as sounding too metallic. And it does. Although i love it and tend to eq it all out in pro tools.

sei046

I have never come across a pro studio using LE. i mean actually pro. In fact its a bit crazy to even think about! I actually am not even sure you should be able to advertise yourself as a pro studio with LE.

I was looking at the Digis for a while and i tried a few other bits and bobs. Got a 002 for a while and decided in about a week it was not for me. I dont look my sequencer telling me what i can or cant do!

I think the sound of your seq is the least of your worries in that LE chain! Dont even get me started on the commonly used programs comment!

sei046

im not saying LE is useless. Its a good package with 002/003 but considering what this lad wants(which was the topic, before you got all tired and emotional) i just dont think its his best choice! I would use the LE in a live situation(well actually SX and a PM) but i can see its use there where you prob wont millions of tracks and latency is not an issue. In a studio where there is a large amount of work going with 50, 60+ tracks? Naw

Maccattack

jtsuited wrote:

are people really recommending someone to get cubase instead of protools?

What im considering is getting TWO. PTLE for editing etc.
And another programme: DP, SX3,Logic etc?? for getting the tracks in. via good pres and convertors. Use that for recording and PTLE for mixing editing etc.

The pres and convertors available for LE get a lot of negative press. They arent up to sctratch so i want to avoid having to buy a 002 or 3 at all.

sei046

Well its your call man. Just be very wary of the limited track count in PTLE and the lack of delay compensation! Im not sure LE is really doing you any favours there, Why do you really want LE? What is it about it that that you need?

and no one is reccomending SX over Pro Tools. just PTLE......BIG DIFFERENCE! Dont tell a Pro tools user that you use pro tools if its PTLE...They dont like it!

jtsuited

sei046 wrote:

I have never come across a pro studio using LE. i mean actually pro. In fact its a bit crazy to even think about! I actually am not even sure you should be able to advertise yourself as a pro studio with LE.

The fact is that LE integrates seamlessly with HD systems and as I've said having used both extensively, the difference between the two would be negligible to the average user.
Yes there's a max track count but without a shedload of Ram you'll never get near that anyway. The delay compensation issue is null and void because of the time adjuster plugin. Sorry, how long did you use protools LE for again?

The guy is looking for something exactly what protools LE mbox/digi002/003 was designed for. And if you are honestly saying the Cubase Sx route is the better option to go for you are either
1) Deluded
2)Deaf
3) neglecting the massive industry trend towards protools Le or Logic in all areas.
4)maybe a combination of all of the above.

Oh and by the way- have you ever used a protools hd system? Cause if you haven't you really are not in a position to be getting pedantic about the difference betweeen hd and LE.

I'd love to see someone bringing in a cubase SX session to a professional studio for mixing. It's a bloody nightmare of exporting individual files etc.

Whereas you bring in a PTLE session and your away before you can say the words 'compatibilaty convenience'!

jtsuited

sei046 wrote:

Dont even get me started on the commonly used programs comment!

Why exactly?

sei046

Because Pros dont use LE! Thats Why! I cant stick having to worry about something as fundamental to recording as a track count or my music being in time! I work with Protools engineers the entire time on 11 and 12 track albums!

Why......why would you offer someone a system with limitations like LE when you can offer them another daw like cubase or logic. From post one you got fairly personal and took an awful lot of offence to questioning so maybe you should step back a bit and offer some help to the topic or throw out some stats. Less emotion and a bit more common sense would be nice

sei046

i also dont get why you keep bringing up the idea that i must be deaf..... I could almost garuntee your signal chain is not clean enough for you to begin worrying about the summing stages of the daw

and cubase is considered to be one of the best summing stages along with logic i think





-No plugin delay comp
-real time audio bounces
-Plugin CPU useage
-PC compatability
-have to use digi hardware to use there software


Get it out of your head. Dont pay for a sub standard interface and a sub standard Daw when all you really need is one good decent daw. GET Pro Tools HD or Cubase or Logic

jtsuited

sei046 wrote:

Because Pros dont use LE!

Really? Well i happen to know the digidesign distributors for ireland and most people who would have bought hd systems say three years ago now buy LE systems due to Macs being able to provide the necessary processing power.

And I know many pros who use LE. In fact i can think of more who use LE than use logic, nuendo, and cubase put together.
If you want to look at stats (or something approaching that): the state radio broadcaster uses LE systems (and HD) as they were deemed the only system stable enough for outside recording. Lots of 'pros' there using LE.
Every professional studio that has a hd system in Ireland (which is nearly all of them), regularly work with LE sessions using HD.

Honestly man I see your point, I just think you are seriously underestimating LE.
And the general bad press about the 002 converters and pres is in my opinion a lot of internet smack talk because any respected audio engineering publication has had nothing but positive feedback.

At the AES there two months ago, the only DAWs been talked about (and remember this is a conference for professionals in the true sense) were Pro Tools (especially LE) and then a bit about Logic Pro.

You say 'i took offence to questioning'. What exactly were your questions?

Having taught Protools and having used cubase for years, I think i am in a better position to compare and contrast than someone who only a few days ago was wondering about the rudimentary characteristics of the 002.

You simply do not have enough practical experience with both to make such a black and white judgement.

sei046

Digidesign are not idiots. They need a very clear line between LE and HD. LE is in no way near the power of HD... For a reason. These guys know what they are doing.

Cubase is regarded to have the best summing algos

Digidesign jumped at the opportunity to make a stable native system when people were leaving Hard disk, they made the industry standard. Pro Tools Le is not by any manner or means the INDUSTRY STANDARD. Protools HD users do not consider LE Pro Tools.

It is a sad excuse for a daw.
Consider:
Digi 001, Cheap and Cheerful, has everything you need to get you going and gives you a taste of recording
002 Improved the sound quality
003 Did next to nothing! Introduced WC. Its exactly the same box. Same pres same ADA.


Why?
If LE Was any good why would you bother with HD?

Protools enforces only PROTOOLS HARDWARE! This is a joke for anyone if your not running apogees and lynx etc. This is another reason people are boycotting Digi.

Look at the stats. LE IS A RIPOFF! Its a way to get you into digi so you move up to HD. Simple as. Unless your going to HD, DONT BOTHER!

Why not get a Daw that can let you do everything you want much easier instead of dishing out cash for a package where everything is SUB PAR instead of focusing on getting some good stuff!


So please,
Give yoursef Room to work with different hardware...
Dont limit what you do with your music with track counts(spend have the day bouncing)
Dont jump on the LE boat at time (with the 003 release) when Digi users are giving them the fingers until they cop on and sort out the hardware and remove at least a few of the limitations in their software. Im getting calls every day from guys in the last few weeks looking for advice on where to go from LE as they had hoped the 003 would sort the whole lot out.

I am only echoing thousands of engineers when i say
LE IS NOT A PRO DAW!
Look into it. Its not considered one outside of Digis own hype.
Get off this LE hangup and you will see how much more free you are with a Daw that wont tell you how it wants to work or wont tease you with what costs 50 plus grand.

Any actual pro studio using pro tools is using HD... simple as. They wouldnt get very big clients on an LE system.

Digi are not stupid! LE IS NOT SUPPOSE TO BE GOOD!

jtsuited

sei046 wrote:

Why?


Look into it. Its not considered one outside of Digis own hype.

oh i will. it's not like i do this professionally and have worked extensively in HD based studios!

sei046

i just am finding it hard to understand why you would reccomend a daw with limits over one without any

jtsuited

sei046 wrote:

Protools HD users do not consider LE Pro Tools.

I do.

sei046 wrote:

LE IS NOT A PRO DAW!

And cubase sx is? You're getting silly now

sei046 wrote:

Any actual pro studio using pro tools is using HD... simple as. They wouldnt get very big clients on an LE system.

It's almost like you haven't been reading my posts when I said that

'MANY PRO TOOLS HD SESSIONS ARE DONE USING THE ORIGINAL SESSION FROM LE'. I've been there. I've seen it many times. I've done it many times. Are you listening?

The whole 003 thing was an entire farce and you are absolutely correct in what you say on it.

But can you please explain why LE is being used far more than cubase in the professional world? And i'm not going over how that is the case again. Remember my AES comments. If you were at the conference you would certainly not say that pro engineers do not consider LE a pro DAW.

This is really getting ridiculous.

sei046

jtsuited wrote:

But can you please explain why LE is being used far more than cubase in the professional world?

I was trying to take you seriously the last while but thats too far man. Im not sure if there is hope for you! One day maybe you will learn!

jtsuited

sei046 wrote:

i just am finding it hard to understand why you would reccomend a daw with limits over one without any

because unlike you, I have had extensive experience using cubase (vst/sx), sonar, logic, nuendo, and protools hd/le. And cubase and nuendo are an absolute nightmare compared to pro tools LE and Logic. The only problem with Logic is that the AU plugins available aren't quite as up to scratch as th RTAS.
However I haven't looked into this lately so i may be wrong.

The guy came on looking for advice and you started recommending cubase SX over the other (obviously better to anyone in the business) DAWs.

Back on topic, i think the OP should go along with LE and Logic/DP. Although i really don't think there are gonna be better converters and pres in his budget (presumably) that outperform the 002/mbox/whatever significantly enough to justify a second interface.

jtsuited

sei046 wrote:

I was trying to take you seriously the last while but thats too far man. Im not sure if there is hope for you! One day maybe you will learn!

that's a great way not to answer a majorly important question

sei046

"Me: LE IS NOT A PRO DAW
Him: And Cubase Sx Is?"

That is going straight up on the "Funniest Heard" on the Pro audio forums!

I love the way you discredited Nuendo as not being a pro daw.

Back on topic? you were never on topic!

I think the guys best choice is to go with some sort of setup that wont limit him too much. That way if you decide want to try something else or are not 100% happy your Hardware wont become obselete! be careful what you buy.

Go digi, your staying digi and will have to buy new hardware or get stuck with the ridiculous prices for upgrades. Its a big monopoly so ask around on the net and whatever studios you know and they will advise you on what to do if you are going to go digi. The only real viable route (money wise and in the long term) are some of the older systems or a HD system.

I would advise Logic, DP or Cubase. Dont bother with Nuendo if your not going to use much other media

jtsuited

and yet my question has still not been answered!

jtsuited

sei046 wrote:

Im just looking at alternatives to my Sx rig. The computer is not running the best for me at the mo. Has a lot of glitches. It restarts for no reason quite frequently. I am running 2 gigs of ram on a 2.6 p4 which is nothing amazing but without fail i run out of juice by the time i have used the plugins etc. I am messing with the buffers and everything now but to get a nice latency i am gettin a huge loss in CPU.

Still advising on cubase sx?

sei046

of couse i am. Whats changed?

sei046

the question about more pro studios using le than SX? i didnt think it need answering because it was such a crazy comment! Your the only person i have ever met who would claim that

sei046

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end-theory/134440-good-bye-pro-tools-hello-cubase.html

Talk about timing lol!

jtsuited

are you serious?
It's rare enough to see a professional studio with a windows pc in it. Maybe in the cheaper ones but the higher end studios are almost entirely mac based.
And cubase is not a quarter as popular on macs as LE is.

Maybe we've been in different studios but off the top of my head here are the studios that have/or had protools le and not cubase sx:

Windmill when it was open
All rte studios ( they do a lot of serious recording work in their with outside clients)
Grouse Lodge.

And that's just off the top of my head.
The most fequented pro audio shop in dublin does not even stock cubase. It does stock Logic, PTLE, DP and Ableton ( and of course the HD systems-the Venue, I-con, D-command, pro-control etc.)

sei046

of course it stocks PTLE! Everywhere has to! It sells like hot cakes!
I will actually be in grouse in a few weeks has been ages!

jtsuited

But why doesn't it sell cubase if it's more common in pro studios?

jtsuited

and are you going to name any pro studios with no LE and cubase SX?

sei046

Quinns Studio
Mark Cahill
That studio in Galway( i cant for the life of me remember the name...ran by frankie Coulohan)
Willy Muhawney
Dessie Sheerin

sei046

Why do those shops sell marhsall cheapo POS amps and not Diezel Amps?