Will Ahern become Taoiseach on June 14th?

Our man in Havana

irish1 wrote:

Lads Bertie is in hot water here have a read of http://www.planningtribunal.ie/images/SITECONTENT_578.pdf pages 30 to 35 make very interesting reading. It appears to me that Bertie told a lie when he said he did not deal in large transactions of US dollars, now obviously this is only an opening statment and his legal team will fight the charges put to him but if the tribunal's records of transactions at the banks concerned on the dates agreed with Bertie stack up he is in big trouble here. Biffo's odd's for next Taoiseach on Betfair are shortening.....

Have a read and let me know what you think.

Pretty damming alright.

mike65

Vincent Browns programme starts now, I wonder whats on the agenda.

Mike.

Crash

Keep us updated mike?

mike65

Sorry I lost the will to listen after 20 mins of discursive babble from Brown. He is a most frustrating broadcaster.

Mike.

Villain

Yea I was listening but turned to Q&A, Browne was trying to make up for his attack on Bertie, the re-construction was followed by the guests stating what most of us have said i.e. the bank records seem to show that Bertie's statement was incorrect.

Labour on Q&A in the shape of Joan Burton seem to distancing themselves from FF, the Greens are missing from the show and Finian McGrath seems to suggest he would support Enda Kenny in a vote.

Ms O'Malley is flustering but seems to saying the PD's are only up for supporting Bertie. I think the Greens may be thinking hard about what to do after the Mahon Tribunal today they can't call for ethic's at the same time supporting a Taoiseach who is being investigated at a tribunal and at least appears to still have questions to answer.

Queue Brian Cowen to court Trevor into joining HIM and FF into power with Bertie moving back to Finance and closing all accounts to deal in cash only

Dave!

Is it worth watching online irish1? I missed it tonight

Villain

Nothing too exciting, everyone is playing their cards very close to their chests, Joan Burton might put you alseep so if you are looking for a sleeping aid then maybe watch it.

LuckyLloyd

Bah. Relatively boring Q + A as compared to the pistols at Dawn between Rabbitte and Cowan last week. The best points on the show were made in relation to the Mahon tribunal - let it run it's full course before we start extrapolating any significance from all the evidence presented. Long way to go and much more to see as Myers indicated.

Lennoxschips

These tribunals run for years, letting it run its course is exactly what Bertie wants. The politicians and Kevin Myers are full of guff as usual and don't want to upset the apple cart.

What I want to know is why $45,000 lodged at AIB on 5/12/94 would equal IRP 28,772.90 exactly. To the penny.

Stark

Exchange commission I assume?

Probably need to account for AIB overcharging as well

Lennoxschips

According to the Mahon tribunal, who looked into that, if you walked into that AIB branch on that day and asked to exchange and deposit $45,000.00, they would have lodged IRP28,772.90 in your account. Which is the exact amount, to the penny, that ended up in Celia Larkin's account. Ahern told the tribunal that there were no dollars involved.

According to Ahern's statement, the tribunal are simply using the wrong exchange rate figures.

100gSoma

Ardent wrote:

"You get the government you deserve" seems really apt right now.

"Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve." George Bernard Shaw

jjbrien

For somebody who is an accountant by profession it would seem Bertie is doing his level best to hide the evidance. The Mahon tribunal will be replying to Berties council today I wonder what is going to come out :eek:

Bertie is beginning to sound like Father Ted "That money was just resting in my account before I moved it on"

DublinWriter

jjbrien wrote:

For somebody who is an accountant by profession it would seem Bertie is doing his level best to hide the evidance.

Bertie Ahern was never a Certified, Chartered or Public Accountant.

He worked for a number of years as an accounts clerk at the Mater Hospital. He is still officially on a career break from that job.

Heinrich

DublinWriter wrote:

Bertie Ahern was never a Certified, Chartered or Public Accountant.

He worked for a number of years as an accounts clerk at the Mater Hospital. He is still officially on a career break from that job.

I thought he attended the LSE. That seems to have been reported recently. Lots of grey areas there.

DublinWriter

Heinrich wrote:

I thought he attended the LSE. That seems to have been reported recently. Lots of grey areas there.

"...his attendance at both UCD and the LSE have never been proven and there is no documentary record of any qualifications from either institution." Lies, damned lies... and CVs – Irish Independent newspaper article 19 October 2006.

jjbrien

DublinWriter wrote:

Bertie Ahern was never a Certified, Chartered or Public Accountant.

He worked for a number of years as an accounts clerk at the Mater Hospital. He is still officially on a career break from that job.

he might be going back there soon if things keep up. I think the Mahon tribunal sshould have the power to remove any TD or senator from office if thier figures dont add up or they lie to the people or take bribes.

ednwireland

see berties lawyers went on the offensive trying to rubbish the tribunal and gilmartin's evidence (maybe he's telling the truth maybe not)
it just smells of hiding stuff whether bertie is or not
reminds me of lawlors challenges
the real problem is how long this has gone on for it should have been sorted years ago but i guess a lot of the delays have been due to people squirming
must admit i dont really know where it leaves bertie my gut feeling is he's hiding a lot but maybe he was just a really bad accountant

&#231

&#231 wrote: »

I get the feeling Akrasia was being sarcastic, and slightly taking the piss out of some of the hardcore Fianna Failers on here who fail to realise that the man has lied. In fact, he has now been caught in a lie, in that at least one of the bank lodgments CANNOT be attributed to the explanation he gave them.

The problem with that analysis is that the tribunal hasn't heard from Aherns baristers on the issue yet.
You may as well re convict the birmingham six tbh if you are going to declare a verdict from one side without hearing from the other.

But then why addresss such technicalities when we can continue with the kangeroo court...

Lennoxschips

No, I, for one, am very interested in Bertie's explanation.

Tar.Aldarion

Yes, as I can't think of a satisfactory one myself. Would like to hear what he has to say after they stop attacking the court.

gandalf

Tristrame wrote:

The problem with that analysis is that the tribunal hasn't heard from Aherns baristers on the issue yet.

Well we have heard from his legal team but all they have done is fire around wild allegations which I expect the judges to rebutt today. They did not address the issues and they did not address the basic fact that from the evidence gained Bertie purjured himself in a legal forum of the state.

All noise and no substance.

Villain

Tristrame I think most people accept that no facts have been proven yet however what I was commenting on was the information the tribunal set out yesterday which contradicts the statment Bertie made before the election. I also think it fair to assume that given the amount of information read into record by the tribunal yesterday the tribunal has bank records in its pocession which state that what Bertie said COULD NOT have happened.

Now if that is the case then for whatever reason known only to Bertie he lied to the public before the election in the written statement he released, his counter argument at the time was that if the correct exchange rate was applied to a sum of $45,000 it would not equate the sum lodged, a fair argument you would think hwoever he went on to say that the sum involved Sterling.

Now if we look at what the Tribunal says the bank records show it appears that the figure lodged matches exactly the sum of $45,000 using the rate applied to sums of money worth up to £2,500 punts, now obviously that is not the correct rate however anotehr transaction which was completed in sterling shows that the lower rate was used only for it to be crossed out and the higher rate used, so I think it is fair to say it is very possible that lower rate was used.

Leaving aside what rate was used the most damning part of the bank records show that on the day in question the 5th of December 1994 the amount of Sterling which was changed in the bank on that was 1,921.55 thus not allowing for what Bertie said to have taken place, the bank records for that day do however allow for a transaction of $45,000 to have taken place, while I haven't seen the bank records I think it would be fair to say a Tribunal setup by the state would not present such records without having proof.

gandalf

gandalf wrote:

Well we have heard from his legal team but all they have done is fire around wild allegations which I expect the judges to rebutt today. They did not address the issues and they did not address the basic fact that from the evidence gained Bertie purjured himself in a legal forum of the state.

All noise and no substance.

They have to address them though.It matters little that they didn't yesterday.
As for perjury that would have to be proven.

irish1 wrote:

Bertie he lied to the public before the election in the written statement he released, his counter argument at the time was that if the correct exchange rate was applied to a sum of $45,000 it would not equate the sum lodged, a fair argument

As regards dollar transactions,it's great fodder for the Bertie haters but WE are not in possession of all of the facts and WE are not mind readers in relation to the thrust of the course of the tribunals work.

It's very easy to start out from a position of guilty m'lud because he has to be.
I'd rather be the sheep that doesn't follow the (some) newspaper flock blindly convinced on this one.
My damning should the need arise will be based on the results of the tribunal and that damning mightn't necessarally be on Ahern given the one way information feast thrown at us currently.

Villain

Tristrame wrote:

As regards dollar transactions,it's great fodder for the Bertie haters but WE are not in possession of all of the facts and WE are not mind readers in relation to the thrust of the course of the tribunals work.

It's very easy to start out from a position of guilty m'lud because he has to be.
I'd rather be the sheep that doesn't follow the (some) newspaper flock blindly convinced on this one.
My damning should the need arise will be based on the results of the tribunal and that damning mightn't necessarally be on Ahern given the one way information feast thrown at us currently.

I'm not following any newspaper I think you will find my post was made yesterday before any newspaper covered the story I haven't even seen a paper yet today, I have however read the following http://www.planningtribunal.ie/images/SITECONTENT_578.pdf have a read and see for yourself what the tribunal has said the bank records show, not everyone follows the media some people actually look the information and make their own mind up, seriously have a read of the pdf above never mind whatever any paper say. My last post is based solely on what is in the PDF.

gandalf

Tristrame wrote:

They have to address them though.It matters little that they didn't yesterday. As for perjury that would have to be proven.

Well based on the transcripts from the tribunial matched up to what Bertie said I think the proof is there in Black and White.

This should now trigger a very low level trawl through this mans full financial dealings for all his time in the Dail.

is_that_so

It seems that there are inconsistencies to be cleared up and a need to establish if any wrongdoing has occurred. None has been proven to date. Yet as someone observed on Vincent Browne last night part of what Mahon is doing is following the money trail. If it transpires that Bertie's finances have no part of this then that will be it.
However questions have emerged over those finances and using your lawyer to shout down the tribunal set up by the Oireachtas because it is asking questions that you may not like does not strike me as the best way to go about it.

That said he has every right to defend himself but acting the victim is not the way to do it imo. Feeling aggrieved at the media is one thing but taking pot shots, by proxy, at a State appointed tribunal is hardly what one would expect from an incoming Taoiseach.

And in answer to the original question , yes I do believe he will be.

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote:

The problem with that analysis is that the tribunal hasn't heard from Aherns baristers on the issue yet.
You may as well re convict the birmingham six tbh if you are going to declare a verdict from one side without hearing from the other.

But then why addresss such technicalities when we can continue with the kangeroo court...

Except we have heard from Bertie and according to the tribunal evidence yesterday the statement bertie issued in the election is full of holes to say the least.


This is good for FG they really need to keep Labour and the Greens away from FF to increase the chance of a rainbow next time out which might not be 5 years if bertie is relying on JHR and Bev not too mention the couple of over 70s on his own benches.
A couple of by election losses and FF would be in big trouble for example if Bev was declared bankrupt enda could stand crusty the clown in Mayo and get him elected (sorry micheal ring is already elected there).
And not wishing it but with the few elders on the FF benches a few by elections could not be ruled out and while FF can muster 40%+ in a by election that will not be enough.

Bertie might be Taoiseach but how long it will last is the question?

Voipjunkie

gandalf wrote:

This should now trigger a very low level trawl through this mans full financial dealings for all his time in the Dail.

That is an interesting aspect the tribunal is only examining his finances for the time that Gilmartin alleges O'Callaghan paid Bertie 50,000 to change the tax designation of Blanchardstown SC to see if Bertie has any unexplained money which might have come from O'Callaghan.
When people ask us to wait for the Mahon Tribunal to finish they should remember that if the tribunal comes to the opinion that the monies Ahern had where not from O'Callaghan they will stop looking this is kind of like the Gardai raiding someones house looking for the proceeds of a bank robbery and finding a large stash of cocaine and giving the guy a clean bill of health because he is not a bank robber.

jjbrien

Voipjunkie wrote:

Bertie might be Taoiseach but how long it will last is the question?

It all depends on what the judges in the Mahon tribunal say. if there is enough holes found and if FF do form a goverment he could be out by xmas.