Will Ahern become Taoiseach on June 14th?

Jonny Arson

Discrepancies in Ahern's account: Mahon

A barrister for the Mahon Tribunal has said he has uncovered discrepancies in the account given by Taoiseach Bertie Ahern concerning lodgements totalling over £100,000 pounds received in the 1990s.

The inquiry heard that one lodgement could not have been the result of a £30,000 sterling lodgement as claimed by Mr Ahern.

Bertie Ahern said the money lodged to the account of Celia Larkin in December 1994 came from £30,000 sterling in cash given to him by Manchester businessman Michael Wall.
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He said it was for structural work on the house in Drumcondra he was then renting from Mr Wall.

But Des O'Neill SC for the inquiry said today that the £28,777 lodged did not equate with the sterling exchange rate and that bank records showed there were no such sterling transactions that day.

There were however transactions in other currencies that day which would equate a payment of $45,000 dollars.

Another transaction said to have been a re-lodgement of savings by Mr Ahern was now discovered to have been the result of a sterling transaction. While another lodgement did not back up Mr Ahern's claim that he received £8,000 sterling from Manchester businessman.

Mr O'Neill also said there is very little documentary evidence to support Mr Ahern's about the source of the five lodgements totalling over £116,000.

The Mahon Tribunal resumed with the opening of the Quarryvale module after it was postponed for the duration of the General Election campaign.

The tribunal is investigating an allegation Mr Ahern received £80,000 from developer Owen O'Callaghan to block a tax deal for a rival shopping centre development.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0528/mahon.html

If this is just that start of what is expected to come out over the next weeks will what's left of the PDs, Greens, Labour, Sinn Féin, McGrath, Gregory even touch this guy?

jjbrien

This could trow a spanner in the works for Ahern. This might cause some TD's not to vote him in as Taoiseach. The independants and greens might not support him because of this.

Looks like there will be a very unstable dail no matter which side is in gorement.

gandalf

As I said in the thread in the Politics forum it doesn't bode well if the first day of the resumption of the Tribunial unearths information like this.

Ardent

"You get the government you deserve" seems really apt right now.

Tar.Aldarion

Well, did you not expect this? Maybe not in the first day!

Bertie never looked happy after the results. Strange for a leader that produced a record surprise result.

He knew storm clouds were brewing. He has also been mentioning Cowen qualities as leader recently. Strange that..

jjbrien

Ardent wrote:

"You get the government you deserve" seems really apt right now.

It just shows people would belive anything that comes out of that mans mouth. I just wonder what hes going to say next:rolleyes:

Crash

There is something seriously wrong with a people that continue to elect a man who has continuously lied to people, then lied in saying he never lied, then lied in saying he wouldnt do it again, then ....ad naeseum.

Heinrich

ronoc wrote:

Bertie never looked happy after the results. Strange for a leader that produced a record surprise result.

He knew storm clouds were brewing. He has also been mentioning Cowen qualities as leader recently. Strange that..

C'mon now lads, that will be explained in simple terms as soon as some yarn or other gets drummed up by the mates. Maybe the safe in St. Lukes was bigger than Bertie imagined.

FLAVIUS
Thou art a cobbler, art thou?
FLAVIUS
You're a cobbler, are you?

COBBLER
Truly, sir, all that I live by is with the awl. I meddle with no
tradesman's matters nor women's matters, but withal I am
indeed, sir, a surgeon to old shoes. When they are in great
danger, I recover them. As proper men as ever trod upon
neat's leather have gone upon my handiwork.
COBBLER
Sir, I make my living using an awl. I stick to my work; I don't meddle in politics or chase women. I'm a surgeon to old shoes. When they're endangered, I save them. The noblest men who ever walked on leather have walked on my handiwork.

FLAVIUS
But wherefore art not in thy shop today?
Why dost thou lead these men about the streets?
FLAVIUS
But why aren't you in your shop today? Why are you leading these men through the streets?

COBBLER
Truly, sir, to wear out their shoes to get myself into more
work. But indeed, sir, we make holiday to see Caesar and to
rejoice in his triumph.
COBBLER
Well, to wear out their shoes and get myself more work. Seriously, though, we took the day off to see Caesar, sir, and celebrate his triumph.

MURELLUS
Wherefore rejoice? What conquest brings he home?
What tributaries follow him to Rome
To grace in captive bonds his chariot wheels?
You blocks, you stones, you worse than senseless things,
O you hard hearts, you cruèl men of Rome,
Knew you not Pompey? Many a time and oft
Have you climbed up to walls and battlements,
To towers and windows, yea, to chimney tops,
Your infants in your arms, and there have sat
The livelong day with patient expectation
To see great Pompey pass the streets of Rome.
And when you saw his chariot but appear,
Have you not made an universal shout

Gosh

What's there today was probably known when Ahern called the election and almost immediately the tribunal was postponed until after the election. Before this postponement it was said the tribunal would stop 2 weeks before the election but it was just over 3 weeks - if there were discrepancies and these were known when the tribunal was postponed why was it postponed - the electorate had the right to know this then - all it got was Ahern's side of the story saying everything was above board. Doesn't matter now, whether he stays as Taoiseach or not FF have won the election and are here for another 5 years.

JerkyBoy

It is going to be nearly impossible for Ahern to form the next Government as Taoiseach...especially not with this breaking news:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0528/mahon.html

He can't even satisfy the tribunal with his accounts of payments to him from businessmen...how is he supposed to satisfy potential Government partners, now that McDowell isn't around to pretend these matters don't exist??

JerkyBoy

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0528/mahon.html

How is Bertie going to satisfy potential coalition members when he can't satisfy the Tribunal with his explanations of payments\lodgements from busniessmen?

The negotiations for new Government just got a lot more difficult...

Who is likely to just let this slide?
PDs? Can they get away with pretending these matters don't exist again?
Independents? Lowry and Flynn can't really talk...but Gregory etc might have a problem?

Greens and Labour certainly can't do a deal with Bertie now...

Any predictions?

Akrasia

&#231 wrote: »

There is something seriously wrong with a people that continue to elect a man who has continuously lied to people, then lied in saying he never lied, then lied in saying he wouldnt do it again, then ....ad naeseum.

NO No No No, you can't say he lied, that is an opinion, not a fact. The money must have been a sterling exchange transaction from his future landlord to renovate a house he didn't even own, the bank records must be wrong, Bertie said so.
Are you biased against FF? You must be, you've already condemned him before every single last scrap of evidence is out (and the only evidence that counts are statements from Ahern which must be taken at face value at all times) Why do you hate democracy?

We must give Berturde the benefit of the doubt, there are perfectly reasonable explanations for why hardly any of his public statements have been corroborated by any evidence and in fact contradicted by financial records and testimony from those involved.

jjbrien

Akrasia wrote:

NO No No No, you can't say he lied, that is an opinion, not a fact. The money must have been a sterling exchange transaction from his future landlord to renovate a house he didn't even own, the bank records must be wrong, Bertie said so.
Are you biased against FF? You must be, you've already condemned him before every single last scrap of evidence is out (and the only evidence that counts are statements from Ahern which must be taken at face value at all times) Why do you hate democracy?

We must give Berturde the benefit of the doubt, there are perfectly reasonable explanations for why hardly any of his public statements have been corroborated by any evidence and in fact contradicted by financial records and testimony from those involved.

Hes had his chance to come clean. He didnt. How many more biscuit tins of cash does he have stored away.

jjbrien

Tread running already http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055099250

Uuuh Patsy

Akrasia wrote:

NO No No No, you can't say he lied, that is an opinion, not a fact. The money must have been a sterling exchange transaction from his future landlord to renovate a house he didn't even own, the bank records must be wrong, Bertie said so.
Are you biased against FF? You must be, you've already condemned him before every single last scrap of evidence is out (and the only evidence that counts are statements from Ahern which must be taken at face value at all times) Why do you hate democracy?

We must give Berturde the benefit of the doubt, there are perfectly reasonable explanations for why hardly any of his public statements have been corroborated by any evidence and in fact contradicted by financial records and testimony from those involved.

I'm still in shock as to why half of the population didnt see that this was coming. I have no doubt now that are large proportion of our population treat party politics as if it were a sport. That you support your side no matter how sh!t they seem regardless of anything else.

gandalf

Threads merged.

Gosh

Caveat Suffragator - no point in bleating about it now -

Crash

I get the feeling Akrasia was being sarcastic, and slightly taking the piss out of some of the hardcore Fianna Failers on here who fail to realise that the man has lied. In fact, he has now been caught in a lie, in that at least one of the bank lodgments CANNOT be attributed to the explanation he gave them.

Therefore there is no way that anyone can say anything other than this: Bertie Ahern, our Taoiseach, has lied about money recieved. Simply put.

Personally I think its around this point the Irish people should be marching up to the door and demanding a resignation, but hey, like that one'll work.

Inquitus

It's all about alternatives.

A gifted, albeit perhaps corrupt leader ,who commands respect on the international stage and has presided over unprecedented economic stability and growth versus a 3rd rate Enda Kenny who is clearly not capable of the job.

This is not a blind electorate, nor a stupid electorate, just one that had to make a choice of what was best for the country......were the alternative credible and viable I have no doubt it would have been elected, hell I only voted FF to keep Enda out....

Gosh

&#231 wrote: »

Personally I think its around this point the Irish people should be marching up to the door and demanding a resignation, but hey, like that one'll work.

Wouldn't make a difference, FF would still have 77 seats without Ahern - it's not really about Ahern - it's FF who are again in power. Unless .... get off your ar*e Kenny and fight the fight ....

Crash

Sorry but "wouldnt make a difference"? This doesnt come down to party politics, this comes down to the fact that we have a leader who has lied to the Irish people, and therefore should not be in power. It makes every bit of a difference.

nacho libre

Uuuh Patsy wrote:

I'm still in shock as to why half of the population didnt see that this was coming. I have no doubt now that are large proportion of our population treat party politics as if it were a sport. That you support your side no matter how sh!t they seem regardless of anything else.

People are inherently selfish- and voting is a selfish act. Many intelligent people voted Fianna Fail, knowing full-well Bertie is dodgy, because they simply don't care about corruption.
"It's the economy, Stupid" As long as their pockets are filled that all that matters to them and in their minds Fianna Fail are the ones to ensure that continues. Granted there are people who swayed by parish pump politics- my father's father voted Fianna Fail and so must I.

The White Rose

I voted FF and this is a bombshell

Maybe I was naive or worse stupid but i did believe the payments were to do with his house (sort of)

If this is true, he has to go NOW and hand over to someone like Cowen or even better call another election

Smarmore

&#231 wrote: »

Therefore there is no way that anyone can say anything other than this: Bertie Ahern, our Taoiseach, has lied about money recieved. Simply put.

Des O'Neill SC, for the tribunal, said that no one should draw any conclusions from the figures and that there might be other explanations for them.

Is he allowed to say it?

Crash

He is. and there may be other explanations. However, its being shown now that the explanations that Bertie Ahern gave previously were NOT TRUE.

Therefore, that is a lie.

CerebralCortex

Inquitus wrote:

It's all about alternatives.

A gifted, albeit perhaps corrupt leader ,who commands respect on the international stage and has presided over unprecedented economic stability and growth versus a 3rd rate Enda Kenny who is clearly not capable of the job.

This is not a blind electorate, nor a stupid electorate, just one that had to make a choice of what was best for the country......were the alternative credible and viable I have no doubt it would have been elected, hell I only voted FF to keep Enda out....

Bertie wasn't always Taoiseach he had to start somewhere and Enda has been in politics a while according to himself. Secondly no man is an island Bertie doesn't rule the country with one hand and accept backhanders with the other he has plenty of minions to help him there. They way you talk you'd swear he was Die Führer. Therefore calling Enda 3rd rate is a little zealous considering Bertie hasn't even the balls to tell the US military that we are a neutral country or the vision considering ten years in government to provide affordable broadband to this a 1st world nation. Negative voting suggests fear and fear.......well fear is bad and breeds narrowness. I hope the next 5 years prove me wrong but I doubt it.

Smarmore

&#231 wrote: »

He is. and there may be other explanations. However, its being shown now that the explanations that Bertie Ahern gave previously were NOT TRUE.

Therefore, that is a lie.

He said there were discrepancies and a lot of it is to do with exchange rates. He also said there is not much documentary evidence on the 5 lodgements so maybe you should wait until Bertie gives his account before brandishing him a liar. Unless I'm mistaken the Mahon tribunal is an ongoing investigation and these kind of snippets should not really be leaked to the press. You don't see jurys casting their verdict half way through a trial, especially when the accused has not been given an opportunity to defend themselves.

endplate

CerebralCortex wrote:

Bertie wasn't always Taoiseach he had to start somewhere and Enda has been in politics a while according to himself. Secondly no man is an island Bertie doesn't rule the country with one hand and accept backhanders with the other he has plenty of minions to help him there. They way you talk you'd swear he was Die Führer. Therefore calling Enda 3rd rate is a little zealous considering Bertie hasn't even the balls to tell the US military that we are a neutral country or the vision considering ten years in government to provide affordable broadband to this a 1st world nation. Negative voting suggests fear and fear.......well fear is bad and breeds narrowness. I hope the next 5 years prove me wrong but I doubt it.

Clap Clap well said

Crash

smarmore wrote:

He said there were discrepancies and a lot of it is to do with exchange rates. He also said there is not much documentary evidence on the 5 lodgements so maybe you should wait until Bertie gives his account before brandishing him a liar. Unless I'm mistaken the Mahon tribunal is an ongoing investigation and these kind of snippets should not really be leaked to the press. You don't see jurys casting their verdict half way through a trial, especially when the accused has not been given an opportunity to defend themselves.

The verdict in the mahon tribunal won't be on whether he lied, it'll be on whether he took a brown envelope. Two very big differences. One shouldnt be answered until the mahon tribunal is finished, one is very easy to answer during proceedings.

We'll see what comes out when Berties defence makes a statement to the tribunal - which I think is supposed to be later today?

seamus

He may have been hoping that this could all come out after the next Government had formed.

As it is, it's on very shaky ground - if they do manage to form a Government with the Greens & Inds, further revelations could cause the Greens and/or independents to jump ship and cause FF to lose their majority.
Best course of action now would be to get Labour onside and sacrifice four or five ministries, as an carrot to keep Labour in government. Then Bertie should resign as party leader and hand the reigns over to Cowen. Thus any fallout will be minimised and FF protected from it.

Although we've seen him get out of tight scrapes. He's not called the "Teflon Taoiseach" for nothing...

Dave!

I wonder if before polling day the PDs had pulled out of government and went mental on Bertie, would people have had more respect for them and would they have gotten more than 2 seats? That was what I was thinking about today.

If anything comes out of Mahon that is REALLY damaging to the Taoiseach, then Enda could easily get the PDs to join the government with Greens, Labour, and independents, if he just makes a deal whereby Harney goes berzerk and condemns Bertie, thus resurrecting the idea that they're there to keep the government in check.

What would be interesting I think is if Bertie gets broken by Mahon, then Enda forms a government held together with blue-tack. FF revealed as crooks again, but the alternative (given the current seats) being ridiculously unstable. So Enda would probably be compelled to call another election, and the face of Irish politics could be quite drastically changed.

seamus

I guess it's no secret now anyway why Bertie went all cloak-and-dagger about calling the election, and then decided to go for last Thursday.

If he had called it a week later, the results may have been very different!

Lennoxschips

if bertie is found to have lied or is found guilty in any way then i think the people of ireland deserve another election.

Crash

DaveMcG wrote:

I wonder if before polling day the PDs had pulled out of government and went mental on Bertie, would people have had more respect for them and would they have gotten more than 2 seats? That was what I was thinking about today.

Personally I think so. they made a choice - pulling out of government would have probably ensured them more seats, but left them in opposition - I think they figured they wouldnt lose any seats, and would still be in power with FF after the elections as the main partner.

Lennoxschips

Lennoxschips wrote:

if bertie is found to have lied or is found guilty in any way then i think the people of ireland deserve another election.

Yeah. I wonder if there are bets going for another election before the end of the year?

Stark

DaveMcG wrote:

If anything comes out of Mahon that is REALLY damaging to the Taoiseach, then Enda could easily get the PDs to join the government with Greens, Labour, and independents, if he just makes a deal whereby Harney goes berzerk and condemns Bertie, thus resurrecting the idea that they're there to keep the government in check.

Harney did make a plee to be kept on as Health Minister if the alternative government got in, so I'd say she'd be willing if they asked her. I don't think Kenny has any plans to court the PDs though.

30txsbzmcu2k9w

Them shower of ****wits in RTE have decided to edit the story slightly, typical - RTE is riddled with FF bias, editors always trying to spare berties blushes

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0528/mahon.html

seamus

Stark wrote:

Harney did make a plee to be kept on as Health Minister if the alternative government got in, so I'd say she'd be willing if they asked her. I don't think Kenny has any plans to court the PDs though.

You never know without McDowell. Kenny's comments on McDowell's leaving indicated to me that they weren't very pally. That is, Kenny didn't out and out say "Good Riddance", but was more along the lines of, "Everyone else will miss his controversial character"

cast_iron

&#231 wrote: »

He is. and there may be other explanations. However, its being shown now that the explanations that Bertie Ahern gave previously were NOT TRUE.

Therefore, that is a lie.

Not necessarily. He may have been mistaken. A lie would imply it was deliberate - only the fullness of time will make that any clearer, ie. him getting a chance to explain himself to the Tribunal.

Akrasia

Smarmore wrote:

He said there were discrepancies and a lot of it is to do with exchange rates. He also said there is not much documentary evidence on the 5 lodgements so maybe you should wait until Bertie gives his account before brandishing him a liar. Unless I'm mistaken the Mahon tribunal is an ongoing investigation and these kind of snippets should not really be leaked to the press.

This wasn't a leak, it was evidence heard in open court this morning, and in response to these allegations, Bertie's lawyers went off on a rant about how the tribunal was anti Bertie and irresponsible in allowing leaks in the past (as usual, attacking the man not the ball. It's the strategy of people with a lot to hide)

Crash

Cast_Iron wrote:

Not necessarily. He may have been mistaken. A lie would imply it was deliberate - only the fullness of time will make that any clearer, ie. him getting a chance to explain himself to the Tribunal.

Thats a fair enough viewpoint - essentially though my patience with that man and my trust has been shot at this point really.

Heinrich

&#231 wrote: »

Thats a fair enough viewpoint - essentially though my patience with that man and my trust has been shot at this point really.

A lot of dosh to be mistaken about if you ask me!

Why should the integrity of a future Taoiseach be in question?

Akrasia

cast_iron wrote:

Not necessarily. He may have been mistaken. A lie would imply it was deliberate - only the fullness of time will make that any clearer, ie. him getting a chance to explain himself to the Tribunal.

He already had a chance to explain himself to the Irish public, even after the exchange discrepancies were brought to light, and he made 'a full explanation' subsequent to that, which was contradicted by the bank records and therefore a lie.

Crash

In fact, if you're going before a tribunal you ensure you have your facts straight on what you'll be questioned on. 1 discrepancy, maybe. multiple ones - thats a very different issue.

Villain

Lads Bertie is in hot water here have a read of http://www.planningtribunal.ie/images/SITECONTENT_578.pdf pages 30 to 35 make very interesting reading. It appears to me that Bertie told a lie when he said he did not deal in large transactions of US dollars, now obviously this is only an opening statment and his legal team will fight the charges put to him but if the tribunal's records of transactions at the banks concerned on the dates agreed with Bertie stack up he is in big trouble here. Biffo's odd's for next Taoiseach on Betfair are shortening.....

Have a read and let me know what you think.

endplate

My theory is that a FF spin doctor leaked the information about Bertie's finances before the election in order to divert attention away from the other parties. They realised that sympathy for the Taoiseach increased after the first leak last October and hey presto the same happened this time. I'm gonna wait and see if anybody is found responsible for the leak and if nobody is accused then it looks like a cover up IMO;)

cast_iron

Akrasia wrote:

He already had a chance to explain himself to the Irish public, even after the exchange discrepancies were brought to light, and he made 'a full explanation' subsequent to that, which was contradicted by the bank records and therefore a lie.

"Full" in the context of what he was accused of at the time. Not on the apparent "discrepancies" been talked about now. He has answered the selective leaks each time.

&#231 wrote: »

In fact, if you're going before a tribunal you ensure you have your facts straight on what you'll be questioned on. 1 discrepancy, maybe. multiple ones - thats a very different issue.

Indeed, but he hasn't been before the Tribunal yet to answer the accusations. He should be at least afforded this before we brand him a liar. Maybe he will have a credible reason, maybe he won't - I don't own a crystal ball.

gandalf

That looks fairly damning alright Irish1. The response from Berties legal team all bluster and no substance at all.

Crash

Very interesting read alright.

Agent Smith

Where wants to take my bet that there will be another election in the next 12 months?