Penalty Fares in CIE

Victor

sikes wrote:

By reading letters in newspapers etc, it is clear that its not the policy that's annoying people, its the sudden implementation and fining that is.

You knew about the letters in the papers and there were new signs at the stations. I have no sympathy for you.

sikes

Victor wrote:

You knew about the letters in the papers and there were new signs at the stations. I have no sympathy for you.

I know about the letters in the paper becuase they appeared after this happened. Also there is no fixed signage at the DART detailing this bye law and I am unusure if the one temporary sign located was in place at the time becuase I didnt have time to read as I was in the queue with the poster obscure from view.

What good would your sympathy be to me? I can't believe you came on here and after reading the thread decide whether I deserve your sympathy or not. This is acutally hilarious and while I might be slighty tipsy, I am sure I will get a chuckle from this in the morning.

This is not a situation that needs sympathy. However, I would never want sympathy from someone I didn't know. Its not the 50e thats the problem or the cost of getting legal advice on the matter. The problem lies in the fact that the decision makers in the public sector continue to show a lack of understanding for simple concepts that govern their trade and a total lack of common sense and rationality.

sikes

kearnsr wrote:

Sikes did you see the Indo today?

no I didn't. Any chance you could give me the gist of it?

Cheers

Ham'nd'egger

sikes wrote:

Well they have auto ticket checkers there now at conolloy and tara. Not a Pearse though.

However, if this problem is really that severe, where everyday loads of people will be attempting to buy tickets then the really need to look at their system. However, usually it will be one or two at most per train with the old policy, obviously now it wont happen anymore. In the past I would wait for a minute for the influx of people to die down before attempting to buy my ticket.

But moving the queue to that end is better becuase they have higher capacity and the delay to the traveller is much less.

Funny how the people ahead of you in the queue didn't think of your solution of not waiting; see how far it got them, Sikes!

Simple fact here is, you COULD readily have got a ticket but chose NOT to and got caught doing so. You really are as well to pay the fine and be done with it; by all means try and take it to the district court if you genuinely feel hard done by. For the price of a decent solicitor, you are still costing yourself a small fortune to maybe get off on this (Remember, the State won't cover your fees in this case if it gets this far) or possibly get a criminal record if it comes out badly for you.

sikes

Hamndegger wrote:

Funny how the people ahead of you in the queue didn't think of your solution of not waiting; see how far it got them, Sikes!

Another gentleman also went through the gate and got the same fine. I am regretting that I didnt get his info at the time but he was dealt with a different person at the desk.

With this new policy, it depends on the situation wether it is worth the individuals time to go through the gate and get a 50e fine. There is obviously an hourly pay-rate that exists where taking the fine is the correct course of action. However, in the example where we think about a 15 minute delay, I wouldnt consider a 200e hourly rate to be the threshold, it would be lower. As not only are we kicking 50e into the ineffeicient and over-staff CIE, but the remainder has greater money making ability, expect in the hands of overpayed Execs of whom you might find in, i dont know, CIE? You know the whole multiplier thingie which I seem to remember hearing about in 5th year in school.

However, I am a student and as such have a responsibility to every tax payer to take my studies seriously. I suppose I would have to think the situation in more detail before coming up with a solution to this problem. I would estimate that certainly where examinations are taking place I should take the 50e fine, as the results of my tuition are heavily biased at that time, and so should the hourly cost of my tuition is also biased to that time. In fact I should probably take the fine in all situations to be honest, regardless of the time of year, unless I am out of study.

Hamndegger wrote:

Simple fact here is, you COULD readily have got a ticket but chose NOT to and got caught doing so.

No i couldnt as has been mentioned why above. I dont see why this is so hard for people to get. I can now get a ticket easily because i have made 2 adjustments as a result of the old solution being ruled out. I now go to where there is 2 servers, reducinng the liklihood of delay and have also increased the time I have allowed to get to the station

Hamndegger wrote:

You really are as well to pay the fine and be done with it; by all means try and take it to the district court if you genuinely feel hard done by. For the price of a decent solicitor, you are still costing yourself a small fortune to maybe get off on this (Remember, the State won't cover your fees in this case if it gets this far) or possibly get a criminal record if it comes out badly for you.

I am undecided what to do at the moment. I am thinking of TPing their offices, though its just a number of options available. For some reason I cant get through to Mr Gilligan.

markpb

sikes wrote:

How am I meant to know that it is up to me to have a valid ticket if this has been the practice and never once being told? [...]
By reading letters in newspapers etc, it is clear that its not the policy that's annoying people, its the sudden implementation and fining that is.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Yes you were in the wrong but the way Irish Rail have dealt with the entire situation is a joke. For years it was perfectly acceptable to pay at your destination. Now (quite correctly) they have decided to fix this and start enforcing the rules. There's nothing wrong with that but they should have publicised it before they started. Lots of notices up at all stations, a message on their website and 2-3 weeks where they warn people instead of fining them.

Then, when the message is out there and people have heard about it, they could have started enforcing the rules without exception (unless you're travelling from Broombridge ). As usual customer service is completely missing from Irish Rail - you don't deserve any, you're only the passenger afterall.

Victor

markpb wrote:

Lots of notices up at all stations, a message on their website and 2-3 weeks where they warn people instead of fining them.

That would merely give people 2-3 weeks to not pay fares.

markpb

Victor wrote:

That would merely give people 2-3 weeks to not pay fares.

After not fining people for years, what difference would 2-3 weeks make?

No-one is disputing the rules, they're claiming they didn't know they were suddenly being enforced.

sikes

Victor wrote:

That would merely give people 2-3 weeks to not pay fares.

I wonder how many people who were fined had no intention of paying the fare, bearing in mind that Pearse have had ticket checks since the beginning of man.

sikes

markpb wrote:

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Yes you were in the wrong but the way Irish Rail have dealt with the entire situation is a joke. For years it was perfectly acceptable to pay at your destination. Now (quite correctly) they have decided to fix this and start enforcing the rules. There's nothing wrong with that but they should have publicised it before they started. Lots of notices up at all stations, a message on their website and 2-3 weeks where they warn people instead of fining them.

This is the point. I have no problem ensuring I have a ticket now when the station is open. However, they do still need to address the problem at the north bound platform. A simple,

"Hi, welcome to Pearse DART. Unfortunately you are reuqired by law to have a valid ticket when travelling on our service. This time you may pay the normal fare, but we will take your name and address and if this happens again you will be liable to a penalty fare."

"Ok so."

How simple is that?

Mizu_Ger

meanmachine3 wrote:

i've heard quite alot of stories where train stations have been closed and passengers have been fined for fare evasion when arriving into connolly stn. i know of one stn in dublin where it is both unmanned and does not have any ticket machines.

I assume this is Broombridge station. Looks like something out of Mad Max!

I used the trains for 6yrs to get to work. I usually had a weekly ticket, so didn't make any difference when there was no one in the station (which happened from time to time), but when I didn't have a ticket I still got on and paid the inspector without any hassle. From CIE's side they are probably cracking down on people deliberately dodging the fare, which I saw a lot on the train too (even had one guy ask me for the price of the fare when the inspector came along, guess what I told him...). The inspectors can't tell who is genuine and who isn't, so have to treat all the same.

dowlingm

Is there a "help" button on TVMs so you can speak to an operator so you can report it's busted?

godtabh

sikes wrote:

no I didn't. Any chance you could give me the gist of it?

Cheers

Basicly giving more publicity to whats going on at the moment.

I dont have a link for the article i'm afraid.

icdg

Mizu_Ger wrote:

I assume this is Broombridge station. Looks like something out of Mad Max!

Indeed Broombridge station is NEVER manned, and has no facilities for purchasing tickets at any time (not so much as a portacabin). The only thing people using this station can do to comply is buy a ticket at another station!

Also, most Maynooth line stations are unmanned after 19:00 or so and some weekends, and the ticket machines are locked into the buildings where you cannot access them.

I agree with CIE's policy on prosecuting fair evaders, however allowances must be made for a completely unmanned station without ticket machines.

godtabh

I've a annual ticket but haven't been used it much.

Last night I got the train in town with a friend.

He went to get a ticket. The station wasn't manned and locked so that the electronic ticket machines couldn't be accessed.

Got to the end of the line and they took his money.

Even if the station was closed could they not put the ticket machines so that they can be accessed even if the station is closed?

Question has to be asked as why is it like this in the day but different at the weekends?

Victor

dowlingm wrote:

Is there a "help" button on TVMs so you can speak to an operator so you can report it's busted?

No. Although one would hope that the TVM would have the diagnostics to know it is busted and the central server would get a message to send a service / repair team.

ciaran76

I got the train from Clonsilla to Pearse on Sat. afternoon at about 4.20pm and the station was closed so had no access to the machines to buy a ticket.

Took a chance and took the train to Pearse where the guy was happy enough to take my fare.

I had read all the threads about this but still took the chance as I have always been lucky with the guys at the other stations taking my fare.

MarkoP11

Firstly forget all the intimidating crap Irish Rail is coming out with.

If you board at an unstaffed station without a ticket, they can't fine you, you have a right enshrined in the bye laws

Where the Board gives notice that a station is unattended or the booking office is closed, or where any person is instructed by an authorised person to board a train at a station without purchasing a ticket at the booking office so as not to delay the departure of the train from the station, any person not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel may enter a vehicle at that station for the purpose of travelling but that person must obtain a ticket or other authority from an authorised person on the train as soon as practicable after entering any vehicle or from an authorised person on arrival at the station to which such person is travelling by the train.

Only the Minister for Transport can change the rules. I have boarded at unstaffed stations serveral times in recent months, no trouble getting a ticket, I haven't heard of anyone who boarded at an unstaffed station and got fined.

Be interesting legal case if in the unstaffed booking office case they refused to sell you a ticket, because you have done nothing wrong

KC61

People do seem to be getting confused.

The rule is very simple:

If the facility to purchase a ticket is available at the station that you board the train, you must use it and purchase the ticket before boarding the train.

If it is not available (e.g. station is unstaffed, booking office is closed), then you can board the train without a ticket and you can pay at the destination.

I don't think that IE anywhere suggested that they were trying to fine people who boarded at stations that were either unstaffed or where the booking office was closed (excepting the situation in Coolmine where the second booking office was shut - and we're not opening that hornets' nest again).

How else could people boarding at those stations have a valid ticket (excepting multi-journey tickets)?

godtabh

How can you or they prove you got on a station when there wasnt a ticket machine available?

Ham'nd'egger

kearnsr wrote:

How can you or they prove you got on a station when there wasnt a ticket machine available?

I would assume that the ticket inspectors would know if there is a ticket machine handy or a ticket office that would be likely to closed; also if your story was true, there would be possibly other passengers to settle their fares.

Cathmandooo

I got a fine in the post this morning for €50, I went to pay at Pearse and was 'caught', hardly fare evasion when you're looking to pay! Anyway I'm not dragging up all that people have made the same points. However I was told over the weekend that the reason theyre clamping down on this is because the ticket checkers were pocketing the fares that they received by ppl paying at the end of their journey. Hardly fair at all to people like me who pay on average €800 a year on tickets and have never not paid my fare, whether it be before or after the travel. There's a simple solution, put ticket machines and booths before the ticket collectors in Pearse/Tara Street/Connolly. When it's a choice between staying at your station and missing your train in order to queue for longer, or getting your train and wasting 5 mins queueing at a booth, i'll choose to queue at the end every time. If someone still tries to walk through the barrier without a ticket by all means fine them. Irish rail are a pure disgrace the way they're treating their customers. In the future I'll make sure they hear every complaint I have about their delays and cancellations and after collapsing twice due to overcrowding and no air conditioning turned on they'll be sure to get a good ear bashing off me. You have to give and take to make worklife more bareable. They've gone too far now.

sikes

Good point about the ticket machines at the destination to pay for a fare.

Anyway, I am paying the fare after talking to a number of people, it came down to the fact that my day is worth more than 50e to me. I am however paying the fare in coins no higher than 10c. Which should be fun I doubt they have an auto coin counter at CIE. So how long will it take these idiots to count 1000 coins?

Victor

Cathooo wrote:

There's a simple solution, put ticket machines and booths before the ticket collectors in Pearse/Tara Street/Connolly.

Wouldn't it be better to have more / more available machines at the originating station?

sikes wrote:

Anyway, I am paying the fare after talking to a number of people, it came down to the fact that my day is worth more than 50e to me. I am however paying the fare in coins no higher than 10c. Which should be fun I doubt they have an auto coin counter at CIE. So how long will it take these idiots to count 1000 coins?

:rolleyes: 1,000 x 10c = 100 euro Pay them more if you wish.

mikemac

sikes wrote:

I am however paying the fare in coins no higher than 10c. Which should be fun I doubt they have an auto coin counter at CIE. So how long will it take these idiots to count 1000 coins?

I raised this on the legal forum months ago for a different scenario.
In any transaction, the person recieving the money only has to accept 50 coins.
They may accept it but even then you're just making life difficult for some junior staff member, not management. They are perfectly entitled to tell you to get lost too.
Pretty childish tbh.

And it won't take long as you can gurantee any office handling sums of cash every day will have a coin counter.

Ham'nd'egger

micmclo wrote:

I raised this on the legal forum months ago for a different scenario.
In any transaction, the person recieving the money only has to accept 50 coins.
They may accept it but even then you're just making life difficult for some junior staff member, not management. They are perfectly entitled to tell you to get lost too.
Pretty childish tbh.

And it won't take long as you can gurantee any office handling sums of cash every day will have a coin counter.

The relevant law is the ECONOMIC AND MONETARY UNION BILL, 1998, Chapter 3...

"[SU10] 10.—(1) No person, other than the Central Bank of Ireland and such persons as may be designated by the Minister by order, shall be obliged to accept more than 50 coins denominated in euro or in cent in any single transaction."

Put the Piggie Bank back on the shelf, Sikes

godtabh

Cathooo wrote:

There's a simple solution, put ticket machines and booths before the ticket collectors in Pearse/Tara Street/Connolly.

People can evade fares this way.

The simplest solution would be arrive in plenty of time for your journey and extra ticket machines at each station

sikes

Victor wrote:

Wouldn't it be better to have more / more available machines at the originating station?:rolleyes: 1,000 x 10c = 100 euro Pay them more if you wish.

Why do you continue to humiliate yourself on a public forum? Read it again.

sikes wrote:

however paying the fare in coins no higher than 10c.

sikes

micmclo wrote:

I raised this on the legal forum months ago for a different scenario.
In any transaction, the person recieving the money only has to accept 50 coins.
They may accept it but even then you're just making life difficult for some junior staff member, not management. They are perfectly entitled to tell you to get lost too.
Pretty childish tbh.

And it won't take long as you can gurantee any office handling sums of cash every day will have a coin counter.

It would be very childish, but I wanted to restort to their level!

Cheers for the advice re the law. Kind of sucks.

sikes

Hamndegger wrote:

Put the Piggie Bank back on the shelf, Sikes

I have this huge coca cola bottle full of crappy coins, guess its going to have to stay there a little longer.

Cheers for the law reference, there could have been egg on my face!