Penalty Fares in CIE

sikes

I got a penalty fare on the dart a couple of weeks ago. Not going into detail, however there is only oner machine on the northbound station. Which is not sufficient to deal with the demand that can be created. So i did what i have done a lot in the past and went to pay at the destination and I get a penalty fare, instead of allowing me to pay as has always been the case.

Obviously I am challenging that. However, going on the dart last night I was greeted by nothing but a sign that said i had to buy a ticket before travelling or I WILL be liable to a penalty fare. All the ticket machines we closed and so was the booth.

It now seems that fares have increased from 2e one way to 50e one way at night.

CIE we salute you, you couldnt run a bath.

penexpers

sikes wrote:

I got a penalty fare on the dart a couple of weeks ago. Not going into detail, however there is only oner machine on the northbound station. Which is not sufficient to deal with the demand that can be created. So i did what i have done a lot in the past and went to pay at the destination and I get a penalty fare, instead of allowing me to pay as has always been the case.

It's your responsibility to make sure you have a valid ticket for your journey. Simple as. If you don't have enough time to get a ticket, you should arrive at the station earlier.

Obviously I am challenging that. However, going on the dart last night I was greeted by nothing but a sign that said i had to buy a ticket before travelling or I WILL be liable to a penalty fare. All the ticket machines we closed and so was the booth.

It now seems that fares have increased from 2e one way to 50e one way at night.

CIE we salute you, you couldnt run a bath.

Did you get fined last night?

godtabh

sikes wrote:

So i did what i have done a lot in the past and went to pay at the destination and I get a penalty fare, instead of allowing me to pay as has always been the case.

Its always been the case that you have a valid ticket for travel

Ham'nd'egger

sikes wrote:

I got a penalty fare on the dart a couple of weeks ago. Not going into detail, however there is only oner machine on the northbound station. Which is not sufficient to deal with the demand that can be created. So i did what i have done a lot in the past and went to pay at the destination and I get a penalty fare, instead of allowing me to pay as has always been the case.

Obviously I am challenging that.

On what basis are you challenging your knowingly and blatantly dodging the €2 fare?

meanmachine3

sikes does have a point
i've heard quite alot of stories where train stations have been closed and passengers have been fined for fare evasion when arriving into connolly stn. i know of one stn in dublin where it is both unmanned and does not have any ticket machines.

tampopo

kearnsr wrote:

Its always been the case that you have a valid ticket for travel

NOt true, you've been able to pay at the end of your journey for decades.

One of the charming quirks of living in Ireland.

godtabh

tampopo wrote:

NOt true, you've been able to pay at the end of your journey for decades.

One of the charming quirks of living in Ireland.

I think if you look up Irish Rails By-Laws they'll say that you do.

It was only by the grace of the staff at the other end that you could pay

penexpers

meanmachine3 wrote:

sikes does have a point
i've heard quite alot of stories where train stations have been closed and passengers have been fined for fare evasion when arriving into connolly stn. i know of one stn in dublin where it is both unmanned and does not have any ticket machines.

What station?

dodgyme

right one sat clonsilla station had one ticket machine working with only cc and the other one looked fine but didnt accept change, just kept spitting it out. Now if you didnt have a cc or were unwilling to use a cc to pay for a 2 euro ticket you were screwed. Also the other machine looked ok but didnt work. My problem is that it would then be up to the descretion of CIE to fine you or not. That is wrong. I dont agree with fare avasion but at least give people a fare chance to pay for the journey.

Enigma365

If there are no staff and no working ticket machines, I hardly see how a fine is reasonable.

If your complaint is not enough ticket machines, that is something that should be improved, but is not a valid reason for having no ticket.

Integrated/smart-card ticketing really needs to be applied across all Dublin's public transportation systems. It would alleviate delays at ticket machines and would generally improve the overall public transportation experience.

I see no good reason for the delay on this. It has been in the plans for years.

sikes

penexpers wrote:

It's your responsibility to make sure you have a valid ticket for your journey. Simple as. If you don't have enough time to get a ticket, you should arrive at the station earlier.

I was never told this on the multiple occasions I paid at my destination, and I certainly never noticed the signs that are now present at the stations at the time. When introducing a new policy you should introduce it and realise that people will have to make adjustments.

penexpers wrote:

Did you get fined last night?

No i didnt, i paid the fare at the other end, which i think is very interesting considering there is absolutely no information at my dart station that this is the practice and is in fact totally opposite to the publications being handed out. Thus it is up to the consumer to use common sense, which i also did on the morning in question.

sikes

kearnsr wrote:

Its always been the case that you have a valid ticket for travel

no it hasn't, for the reasons I outlined above regarding the poor system in place.

sikes

Hamndegger wrote:

On what basis are you challenging your knowingly and blatantly dodging the €2 fare?

That post is retarded. I had every intention of paying the €2 and wasnt "dodging" it.

sikes

kearnsr wrote:

I think if you look up Irish Rails By-Laws they'll say that you do.

It was only by the grace of the staff at the other end that you could pay

This is true the decision is up to the staff at the other end. But not anymore it would seem. I can only assume that this is due to the powers that be lacking confidence in their staff to make rational decisions, which would also lead me to believe they promote staff to their level of incompetence.

sikes

Enigma365 wrote:

If there are no staff and no working ticket machines, I hardly see how a fine is reasonable.

If your complaint is not enough ticket machines, that is something that should be improved, but is not a valid reason for having no ticket.

Integrated/smart-card ticketing really needs to be applied across all Dublin's public transportation systems. It would alleviate delays at ticket machines and would generally improve the overall public transportation experience.

I see no good reason for the delay on this. It has been in the plans for years.

This is a good post. However, I do believe that the fact there is only 1 ticket machine coupled with the fact it has been accepted practice for so long to pay at your destination as a valid reason for having no ticket.

Also as everyone is aware ticket checks operate in Pearse and have done for as long as I remember. There was no chance I was never going to pay the ticket.

godtabh

Just because it was an accepted practice it doesnt mean you are correct in what you are doing.

There is a lot of accepted practices that can get you in trouble.

I'm sure its also common knowledge that these stations are busy at certain times etc etc and it would be up to you to get there on time to get a ticket before boarding a train.

Its your responsibility to have a valid ticket for your travel. Not Irish Rails.

sikes

kearnsr wrote:

Just because it was an accepted practice it doesnt mean you are correct in what you are doing.

There is a lot of accepted practices that can get you in trouble.

It was Irish rail that was facilitating this accepted practice.

kearnsr wrote:

I'm sure its also common knowledge that these stations are busy at certain times etc etc and it would be up to you to get there on time to get a ticket before boarding a train.

Sometimes the server is broken and I would have to make a 5 minute journey to get one from the otherside. Thats not acceptable if its going to cost me 15 minutes on my journey.

kearnsr wrote:

Its your responsibility to have a valid ticket for your travel. Not Irish Rails.

It's Irish Rails responsibilty to ensure that I can purchase a valid ticket. So at night it seems its acceptable to get on the dart without a ticket becuase the delay to my journey might be 11 hours, however its not acceptable when my delay is perhaps 15 minutes. So is there a hidden threshold somewhere?

Ham'nd'egger

sikes wrote:

That post is retarded. I had every intention of paying the €2 and wasnt "dodging" it.

Why so?

You had a ticket machine available to pay for a ticket, you decided you didn't have time to pay for a ticket (for whatever reason, however genuine) and somehow it is not your fault that you didn't have a valid ticket. How retarded is that, or are you leaving out a few lines of the tale here?

godtabh

sikes wrote:

It was Irish rail that was facilitating this accepted practice.

The facilitate it yes but it is also their right not to facilitate this. Its up to you to have a valid ticket.

sikes wrote:

Sometimes the server is broken and I would have to make a 5 minute journey to get one from the otherside. Thats not acceptable if its going to cost me 15 minutes on my journey.

If this form of travel isnt acceptable why not use a form of travel that is acceptable?

sikes wrote:

It's Irish Rails responsibilty to ensure that I can purchase a valid ticket. So at night it seems its acceptable to get on the dart without a ticket becuase the delay to my journey might be 11 hours, however its not acceptable when my delay is perhaps 15 minutes. So is there a hidden threshold somewhere?

Irish Rail give you every opertunity to buy a ticket be it single, return, daily, weekly, monthly, yearly tickets. Its not there fault you havent used any of these when its up to you to have a valid ticket

sikes

Hamndegger wrote:

Why so?

Your post was retarded becuase it said I was dodging the fare, or for a better way of putting it, avoiding having to pay. Thats not the case, I was delaying payment till my destination for reasons previously mentioned. At Peasre they check tickets all the time and I declare if i dont have a ticket and pay the normal fare.

Hamndegger wrote:

You had a ticket machine available to pay for a ticket, you decided you didn't have time to pay for a ticket (for whatever reason, however genuine) and somehow it is not your fault that you didn't have a valid ticket. How retarded is that, or are you leaving out a few lines of the tale here?

The 1 ticket machine was not available for the time I was waiting. I arrived at the station with 4 minutes until the next train. That should be plenty of time to purchase a ticket except in some of the most severe circumstances like the one outlined in this scenario. If you have no concept of queues and the effect only one server has on the ability to serve customers especially considering the down time of the electronic ones, then perhaps this isn't the place for you to pass judgement.

This seems to be the article relating to this issue.

132.—(1) Every passenger of a railway undertaking shall, on request by an officer or employee of a railway undertaking, produce, and if so requested, deliver up to the officer or employee a ticket showing that his or her fare is paid and, if the fare has not been paid, shall upon request—

(a) pay, to the officer or employee—
(i) his or her fare from the place where he or she started
the journey by railway, or
(ii) such other fare for non-payment of a fare as fixed by
the undertaking,
as the officer or employee decides, or

(b) give the officer or employee his or her name and address.

Clearly in the past they have had confidence in their employees to make rational decisions, sadly this isnt the case anymore.

sikes

kearnsr wrote:

The facilitate it yes but it is also their right not to facilitate this. Its up to you to have a valid ticket.

How am I meant to know that it is up to me to have a valid ticket if this has been the practice and never once being told? Am i meant to know the every byelaw before using anything in this country? There must be some kind of threshold of time becuase I didnt need a valid ticket last night to use the dart. I payed at the destination.

I enjoy dicussing matters like this, but I seem to be going around in circles.

kearnsr wrote:

If this form of travel isnt acceptable why not use a form of travel that is acceptable?

I never said the form of travel is unacceptable, it was there solution to the problem that has increased the probability of delay due to their lack of understanding of basic queueing principles that is unacceptable.

By reading letters in newspapers etc, it is clear that its not the policy that's annoying people, its the sudden implementation and fining that is. You have to understand that most people get far too emotional on these issues. While I may come up with my own rational solution, in this case its not to enter the north bound entrance anymore, instead use the southbound entrance with 2 servers, many get annoyed and jump into their cars, swearing never to use CIE again.

I have no problem ensuring I have a ticket before travelling if that is their new policy, but fining someone who has no idea that this is the new line is retarded. You have to give time to people to adjust and also ensure there are adequate provisions to purchase these tickets.

kearnsr wrote:

Irish Rail give you every opertunity to buy a ticket be it single, return, daily, weekly, monthly, yearly tickets. Its not there fault you havent used any of these when its up to you to have a valid ticket

Im not repeating myself however, they didnt give me every opportunity to buy a ticket. Your point about multitrip tickets is irrelevant. If this is their new policy, everytime a person enters a station they must be able to purchase a ticket. This is not the case.

I just got back from the dart station. The person was gone and everyone was instructed to use the automatic machines, or be liable to a 50e penalty fare. There was a school child there who tried to buy a ticket. However you can't buy school tickets on the electronic machines. What does he do in this situation? Phone mummy to bring 50e to his destination to pay for his transport?

Zaph

While I do sympathise that somebody decided to change what was "accepted practise", had there not been a working machine at the station, regardless of how inconvenient it may be for you, you'd have a case. If the station was unmanned and there were no working machines anywhere, well then you could not have been reasonably expected to hop out at the next manned station to buy a ticket and hop back on, and the only logical thing to do would be for Irish Rail to accept the fair at the destination. However, there was a machine, and despite the inconvenience that was the your opportunity to buy a ticket, so while queueing to use it may cause you to miss the train and have to wait for the next one, them's the breaks. Nobody said it was fair, especially as you weren't trying to dodge paying, but life's like that sometimes. Chalk it down to experience and arrive at the station in plenty of time to get a ticket in future.

sikes

But that solution of costing me 15mins is costing the economy money. We shouldnt allow retardation have anymore adverse effects on the economy than is absolutely necessary.

Obviously I have changed my ways now, however this would also be accomplished by informing me on my first offense. How simple is that?

It is my honest opinion that people who come up with these contradicting policies should be brought to light and paraded around with their pants down so we can shout and abuse them for being under qualified for their jobs. We should also ensure that more money is pumped into their offsprings education.

KC61

sikes wrote:

How am I meant to know that it is up to me to have a valid ticket if this has been the practice and never once being told? Am i meant to know the every byelaw before using anything in this country?

Unfortunately yes, in law, by using the train service you are deemed to have accepted the terms and conditions that apply to it.

The rules are very simple, and are covered under CIE bye-laws from 1984 as follows:

3. Except as provided in Bye-Law No. 4, no person other than an authorised person shall—

(1) enter any lift or pass any ticket barrier unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling the holder to enter such lift or pass such barrier; and such ticket or other authority shall be produced on demand to any authorised person; or

(2) enter any vehicle for the purpose of travelling unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling him or her to travel therein.

The Board shall be entitled to recover the full fare for the distance actually travelled by the offender without a ticket or other authority.

4. Where the Board gives notice that a station is unattended or the booking office is closed, or where any person is instructed by an authorised person to board a train at a station without purchasing a ticket at the booking office so as not to delay the departure of the train from the station, any person not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel may enter a vehicle at that station for the purpose of travelling but that person must obtain a ticket or other authority from an authorised person on the train as soon as practicable after entering any vehicle or from an authorised person on arrival at the station to which such person is travelling by the train.


In other words if there is the facility to purchase a ticket at the station you are boarding the train at then you MUST use it, irrespective of the length of queue etc.

If you are unable to purchase a ticket at the station you are boarding the train at then (and only then) are you permitted to pay at the destination.

What has happened is that IE were not as thorough as maybe they should have been in their application of these rules and are now clamping down on it. Similarly Dublin Bus seemed to have increased the number of ticket inspections on board buses. This should not have happened, but it did and both companies appear to be getting tough on the rules concerning possession of a valid ticket.

However, to say that you were unaware of the rules is stretching it a bit, as there have been regular poster campaigns (on trains and in stations) reminding everyone to have a valid ticket. My advice is chalk it down to experience.

sikes

KC61 wrote:

In other words if there is the facility to purchase a ticket at the station you are boarding the train at then you MUST use it, irrespective of the length of queue etc.

Im not really sure how you managed to get that conclusion from the byelaw above. However, queue length is a valid reason to pay at your destination.

ireland.com wrote:

DART fare-evasion case dropped as court told of queues for tickets

A DART passenger has beaten a prosecution for fare-evasion after telling a judge of archaic ticket sale conditions at his local rail station.

Mr Bertrand Boisse, Portmar- nock, Co Dublin, told Dublin District Court yesterday of his astonishment at receiving a €25 bill and being accused of fare- evasion after he was unable to buy a ticket at Portmarnock DART station because the only ticket outlet was a small wooden hut operated by one man.

He was travelling to work at 7.15 a.m. on May 26th when a large queue had formed at the hut and the train was arriving.

"I had the choice of being an hour late for work by waiting for the next train or getting on board and paying at the other end," said Mr Boisse, who added that the DART serving Malahide and Portmarnock was much more infrequent than those between Howth and Bray.

He decided to get on board without a ticket and went to an Irish Rail guard in Pearse Street to pay the fare and explain what happened. He was told he would receive a bill in the post for the "standard fare".

"I thought this meant I would receive a bill for €1.80 but I was astonished that it was for €25. When I rang up the only person appointed to deal with complaints in Irish Rail, a Phyllis Elder, I was twice told she was on another call and would ring me back.

"She never did and I forgot all about it until I got the summons to come to court."

Mr Boisse said in the last few years, the number of people using Portmarnock station had more than quadrupled due to the amount of housing development around it, but with no commensurate improvement in facilities for passengers.

"The man in the hut is there with his hands almost covered by his sleeves because there is only a small heater to keep him warm." Only now was Irish Rail in the process of upgrading the station, Mr Boisse said.

He also claimed that people were daily having to abandon the queue for tickets at Portmarnock. On previous occasions when he was unable to get a ticket because of the queue, he had been allowed to pay at the other end.

Mr David Cannon, an Irish Rail inspector, said there was a spot-check for fare-evaders in operation that day. He said Mr Boisse could have bought a seven-day ticket in advance if he wanted to avoid queuing.

Mr Boisse said there was no point in doing this as he did not use the train every day and sometimes got a lift to work.

Judge Michael O'Leary dismissed the case against Mr Boisse.

Zaph

sikes wrote:

Im not really sure how you managed to get that conclusion from the byelaw above.

I would have said these bits explain it quite clearly:

3. Except as provided in Bye-Law No. 4, no person other than an authorised person shall—

(2) enter any vehicle for the purpose of travelling unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling him or her to travel therein.

4. Where the Board gives notice that a station is unattended or the booking office is closed, or where any person is instructed by an authorised person to board a train at a station without purchasing a ticket at the booking office so as not to delay the departure of the train from the station, any person not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel may enter a vehicle at that station for the purpose of travelling but that person must obtain a ticket or other authority from an authorised person on the train as soon as practicable after entering any vehicle or from an authorised person on arrival at the station to which such person is travelling by the train.

The station may have been unattended and the booking office closed, but did someone at the station explicitly tell you it was ok to get on the train without a ticket?

sikes wrote:

However, queue length is a valid reason to pay at your destination.

To you, maybe, but not according to the rules. All that does is shift the queue from your station to the stations atthe other end.

sikes

Sorry I should have been clearer. These rules do not deal with the unmanned nature of the electronic machines as they are always unattended.

Also the case where the judge ruled that the queue length is a reason to not have a ticket, clearly contradicts this law.

sikes

zaph wrote:

All that does is shift the queue from your station to the stations atthe other end.

Which is obviously a better solution for a number of reasons.

Zaph

sikes wrote:

Sorry I should have been clearer. These rules do not deal with the unmanned nature of the electronic machines as they are always unattended.

I would assume that in the context of the bye-law a working ticket machine is considered to be the same as an open ticket office. I may of course be wrong and open to correction.

As regards the article, it doesn't actually say that the judge ruled that the queue length is a reason to not have a ticket, it says that the judge dismissed the case, but without saying why. It may have been because the customer was unable to properly go through the IR complaint procedure for all we know.

And for what number of reasons would it be better to shift the queue to the destination stations? Have you ever gone past the ticket inspector at Connolly or Tara Street after a busy train comes in? Occasionally a person pays the inspector and the queue either gets held up or streams through and no tickets are checked, neither of which acceptable. Now imagine if everyone on the train did that.

sikes

Well they have auto ticket checkers there now at conolloy and tara. Not a Pearse though.

However, if this problem is really that severe, where everyday loads of people will be attempting to buy tickets then the really need to look at their system. However, usually it will be one or two at most per train with the old policy, obviously now it wont happen anymore. In the past I would wait for a minute for the influx of people to die down before attempting to buy my ticket.

But moving the queue to that end is better becuase they have higher capacity and the delay to the traveller is much less.

godtabh

Sikes did you see the Indo today?