Undertaking? Safe or legal?

whosedaddy?

saobh_ie wrote:

Try a short blast of nice friendly orange right indicator.

BostonB wrote:

That because they think you are indicating to undertake and they move over to cut you off.

Using right indicator on the M7 surely means overtaking!!!


Some things on driving on European motorways, well German motorways.

Habit 1: Rules have to be adhered to.. Meaning you will have drivers driving on the overtaking lane at speed limit - to educate the speeding drivers! That is their purpose in life make other people not break the law! Now remember there are lots of areas where there is no speed limit, but a recommended speed of 130 kph. There they still enforcing their speed on the overtaking lane.....

Habit 2: if someone breaks the law certain people will bring you to justice! I know a guy that was driving behind one of those guys for 2 hours (from 2am onwards) - no traffic - finally he undertook him. And the other driver called the police and reported the undertaking.

Habit 3: if you are going fast use indicator as mentioned by saobh_ie. if you are driving Merc, BMW, Porsche just leave the indicator on all the time and flahs people with your high beam... common and annoying practice.

Similar to the debate whether calling the overtaking lane fast lane, thus hammering home the wrong message, German automotive groups proclaimed "Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger" (Unrestricted driving for "free" citizens) in protest against the introductioin of speed limits. With the result that some people think they are still above the law and other that think they are the enforcers of same.

Stark

whosedaddy wrote:

Meaning you will have drivers driving on the overtaking lane at speed limit - to educate the speeding drivers!

Idiots. I've seen people post here before with that attitude. My response was that it's not just speeders who are being inconvenienced by people hogging the overtaking lane, people who want to overtake slow moving traffic ahead can become trapped in the driving lane by people driving alongside them in the overtaking lane.

Hotblack Desiato

BostonB wrote:

I generally just stay along side these people and match their speed. They always do something, either pull ahead, or drop back. I might inch ahead very slowly.

Really bad idea. It maximises the time you're exposed to danger. Either stay behind, or pass decisively.

hobochris

em.. KEEP LEFT RULE ANYONE?

In a situation where it is just you and another car who is hoging the overtaking lane doing say 60km in a 100km zone..

surely its perfectly legal to observe the keep left rule in advance before you meet this car, if you pass this car within the speed limit while observing the keep left rule, is it not the driver hoggng the overtaking lane who is in the wrong for not observing this rule..


I mean your perfectly intitled to drive within the speed limit in the inner lane.

obviously if you come up to the slower moving car and make it obvious that you wish to pass then undertake its fair game for what ever gard catches you.

Capt'n Midnight

ninja900 wrote:

Either stay behind, or pass decisively.

sounds like a plan.

In the UK how they have prosecuted people travelling above the speed limit for obstruction for not moving out of the way. Which is worse in the eyes of the law - obstruction ( travelling 10Km below the speed limit in the outside lane when there is space to the left ) or undertaking said motorist ?

Mitch Connor

hobochris wrote:

em.. KEEP LEFT RULE ANYONE?

In a situation where it is just you and another car who is hoging the overtaking lane doing say 60km in a 100km zone..

surely its perfectly legal to observe the keep left rule in advance before you meet this car, if you pass this car within the speed limit while observing the keep left rule, is it not the driver hoggng the overtaking lane who is in the wrong for not observing this rule..


I mean your perfectly intitled to drive within the speed limit in the inner lane.

Nope, apparently you are not. Stupidly.

BostonB

ninja900 wrote:

Really bad idea. It maximises the time you're exposed to danger. Either stay behind, or pass decisively.

On a multi lane road in heavy traffic you can be along side people for an hour or more without much of a problem so I don't get why undertaking illegally is better. Its illegal for a reason. In my experience when you pull along side people they are more bothered by it than if you stay behind. They usually zoom off into the distance or slow down and pull out of the overtaking lane. I've never had anyone who continued to stay along side.

TBH when I see someone hogging the overtaking lane someone always comes up being me going much fast and I pull over, and usually they'll clear the way be whatever means. Did this once on the M50 when a car transporter stayed in the overtaking lane doing about 80km/h despite many signals to pull over. Most cars were pulling into the slow lane and creeping past. I pulled over to let a boy racer type of saloon by. He pulled up behind the truck. Car transporter refused to let him by, then a set of flashing blue lights came on and it turns out boy racer is a cop car. Car transporter pulls over into slow lane, but no, boy racer/undercover cop pulls him over to the hard shoulder. Great stuff!

Hotblack Desiato

BostonB wrote:

On a multi lane road in heavy traffic you can be along side people for an hour or more without much of a problem so I don't get why undertaking illegally is better.

Well I did say either stay behind, or pass decisively. We all know undertaking is illegal, but that doesn't mean in a particular circumstance that it is unsafe or not. IF you're going to undertake then get it over with.

What I call "flying in formation" is dangerous as you're in the blind spot of the other driver for a long time. Also few car drivers look directly alongside them before changing lane. So either get ahead of them, or hang back so they can see you in mirrors (and you've some chance to react if they pull across in front of you without using them.)

I ride a bike mostly, but drive a car too, in car or bike I try to avoid hanging around in another drivers blind spot whenever possible.

Passing (left side or right side) by inching along means you're in the other vehicle's danger zone for a long time. Either p*ss or get off the pot imho

BostonB

A blind spot is usually the 3/4 quarter view from a car. Though with these idiots its everything except straight ahead. In Europe and the US you're often on 3, and even 4 lane motorways/highways for hours. I can see your point but regardless its still illegal, and I pay enough insurance. I've really only had it happen once or twice here, I use the motorway's so rarely.

dave2pvd

So if you're driving on a 3 lane motorway in the leftmost lane and pass by someone driving slowly in the rightmost, what can be wrong with this?

IMO, the no undertaking rule is impractical once the number of lanes exceed 2 in each direction.

Hotblack Desiato

That's only because we don't enforce the most basic rule of the road, "Keep Left" !

Sean Kinvarra

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The_Op wrote:

Secondly it is not clear whether it is illegal to undertake on a motorway or not. Part of our law says you shouldn't accelerate when someone is overtaking you and part of law says if traffic on an outside lane(yes I'm calling it an outside lane, for all those who were an*l enough to point out it's an overtaking lane, it is only technically an overtaking lane on a motorway, point me to where it says anywhere than it's an overtaking lane on a dual carriageway and I'll apologise) is sufficiently slow then you may overtake. Unfortunately the law as relates (to driving in particular) tells you what you can't do and not what you can, so it's up to interpretation of the law. It doesn't really matter what the gardai think to be honest, it'll be ajudge who decides.

I think the legal position is quite clear. Keep left and overtake on the right.

"Using lanes properly

It is very important that you understand the purpose of each lane on a motorway. To help explain how and when to move from one lane to another, each lane is given a number. The picture below shows that lane 1 is the lane nearest the hard shoulder. This is also known as the inside lane. On a two-lane motorway, the lane nearest the central median is lane 2 (also called the outside lane). On a three-lane motorway, this lane is lane 3.

Motorway lanes

Lane 1

The normal 'keep left' rule applies. Stay in this lane unless you are overtaking.

Lane 2

On a two-lane motorway, use this for overtaking only and move back into lane 1 when you have finished. You may also use this lane to accommodate traffic merging from the left.

On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1.

Lane 3

If you are travelling on a three-lane motorway, you must use this lane only if traffic in lanes 1 and 2 is moving in queues and you need to overtake or accommodate merging traffic. Once you�ve finished overtaking, move back to your left and allow faster traffic coming from behind to pass by.

You must not use the lane nearest the central median (lane 2 or lane 3, depending on the motorway width) if you are driving:

* a goods vehicle with a design gross vehicle weight of more than 3,500 kilograms,
* a passenger vehicle with seating for more than 8 passengers (aside from the driver), or
* a vehicle towing a trailer, horsebox or caravan.

You may use it, however, in exceptional circumstances when you cannot proceed in the inner lane because of a blockage ahead. You may also use it if you are at a location on a motorway where a speed limit of 80km/h or less applies."

and.....

"Overtaking

Overtake only on the right, unless traffic is travelling in slow moving queues and the traffic queue on your right is travelling more slowly than you are. If you intend to move from a slower lane to a faster lane, adjust your speed first.

Before you start to overtake, remember 'mirror, signal, mirror, manoeuvre', and look in your blind spots. Check that the way is clear (behind and ahead) and signal well in advance.

Remember that traffic will be travelling a lot faster than on ordinary roads. Be particularly careful at dusk, during darkness, and in poor weather conditions when it is more difficult to judge speed, distance and stopping distance. Signal and return to your original lane as soon as possible."

Whilst I agree a lot of people use the outside or overtaking lane as a "quicker" lane, undertaking is merely falling to their level of poor driving.

It says "overtake only on the right unless traffic is moving in slow moving queues........." (advisory)
It does not say you MUST overtake only on the right...... Surely by now you should know and understand the wordings used in the Rules of the Road

Sean Kinvarra

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The_Op wrote:

Secondly it is not clear whether it is illegal to undertake on a motorway or not. Part of our law says you shouldn't accelerate when someone is overtaking you and part of law says if traffic on an outside lane(yes I'm calling it an outside lane, for all those who were an*l enough to point out it's an overtaking lane, it is only technically an overtaking lane on a motorway, point me to where it says anywhere than it's an overtaking lane on a dual carriageway and I'll apologise) is sufficiently slow then you may overtake. Unfortunately the law as relates (to driving in particular) tells you what you can't do and not what you can, so it's up to interpretation of the law. It doesn't really matter what the gardai think to be honest, it'll be ajudge who decides.

I think the legal position is quite clear. Keep left and overtake on the right.

"Using lanes properly

It is very important that you understand the purpose of each lane on a motorway. To help explain how and when to move from one lane to another, each lane is given a number. The picture below shows that lane 1 is the lane nearest the hard shoulder. This is also known as the inside lane. On a two-lane motorway, the lane nearest the central median is lane 2 (also called the outside lane). On a three-lane motorway, this lane is lane 3.

Motorway lanes

Lane 1

The normal 'keep left' rule applies. Stay in this lane unless you are overtaking.

Lane 2

On a two-lane motorway, use this for overtaking only and move back into lane 1 when you have finished. You may also use this lane to accommodate traffic merging from the left.

On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1.

Lane 3

If you are travelling on a three-lane motorway, you must use this lane only if traffic in lanes 1 and 2 is moving in queues and you need to overtake or accommodate merging traffic. Once you�ve finished overtaking, move back to your left and allow faster traffic coming from behind to pass by.

You must not use the lane nearest the central median (lane 2 or lane 3, depending on the motorway width) if you are driving:

* a goods vehicle with a design gross vehicle weight of more than 3,500 kilograms,
* a passenger vehicle with seating for more than 8 passengers (aside from the driver), or
* a vehicle towing a trailer, horsebox or caravan.

You may use it, however, in exceptional circumstances when you cannot proceed in the inner lane because of a blockage ahead. You may also use it if you are at a location on a motorway where a speed limit of 80km/h or less applies."

and.....

"Overtaking

Overtake only on the right, unless traffic is travelling in slow moving queues and the traffic queue on your right is travelling more slowly than you are. If you intend to move from a slower lane to a faster lane, adjust your speed first.

Before you start to overtake, remember 'mirror, signal, mirror, manoeuvre', and look in your blind spots. Check that the way is clear (behind and ahead) and signal well in advance.

Remember that traffic will be travelling a lot faster than on ordinary roads. Be particularly careful at dusk, during darkness, and in poor weather conditions when it is more difficult to judge speed, distance and stopping distance. Signal and return to your original lane as soon as possible."

Whilst I agree a lot of people use the outside or overtaking lane as a "quicker" lane, undertaking is merely falling to their level of poor driving.

It says "overtake only on the right unless traffic is moving in slow moving queues........." (advisory)
It does not say you MUST overtake only on the right...... Surely by now you should know and understand the wordings used in the Rules of the Road

Wossack

holy thread revival batman

Alanstrainor

Sean Kinvarra wrote: »

It says "overtake only on the right unless traffic is moving in slow moving queues........." (advisory)
It does not say you MUST overtake only on the right...... Surely by now you should know and understand the wordings used in the Rules of the Road

Is this a new record? 11 years old!