Undertaking? Safe or legal?

Marcus.Aurelius

If you find yourself behind a car in the fast lane, and there is a lot of distance before the next car in the slow lane, but the car ahead does not move into the slow lane (as he/she is legally required to do so), is it illegal to undertake him by using the slow lane? If it is, is there a legal way to indicate to him/her that they are abusing the fast lane?

I've often wondered about the actual legality of the situation, but feel it is best answered in the Motors forum. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

maoleary

Wossack

Undertaking is illegal afaik. You can let them know you are behind them by flashing your lights a couple of times from a safe distance. Dont tailgate. You may be up against a 'fast-lane vigilante' though, in which case nothing will work.

jhegarty

maoleary wrote:

If you find yourself behind a car in the fast lane, and there is a lot of distance before the next car in the slow lane, but the car ahead does not move into the slow lane (as he/she is legally required to do so), is it illegal to undertake him by using the slow lane? If it is, is there a legal way to indicate to him/her that they are abusing the fast lane?

I've often wondered about the actual legality of the situation, but feel it is best answered in the Motors forum. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

maoleary

Not legal.. not safe....

Seth Brundle

Before someone else comes on and says it:
undertaking is legal in slow moving traffic and if traffic in the *overtaking* lane is moving slower than the *driving* lane.

Although not adequately defined, after speaking to a garda on this, it seems that the garda line is that if traffic isn't crawling along then you can't do it.

Marcus.Aurelius

jhegarty wrote:

Not legal.. not safe....

I agree completely, but sometimes, it seems to be the only way to get ahead of a possibly dangerous situation when the individual in front is a twat. :rolleyes:

We've all been though it, a 100 kph car in a 120 zone in the overtaking lane with no cars in the slow lane for miles. Can you use the slow lane at the speed limit and overtake just by cruising at your normal pace? Does the slow lane have to move as slowly as the fast lane? A strange practice?

Anan1

It's not legal and it's not entirely safe, but I really don't see any alternative in this country. Be sure to use the horn when undertaking, to make them aware of your presence - the kind of driver who sits in the overtaking lane is quite capable of changing lanes at any time without looking.

Marcus.Aurelius

Anan1 wrote:

It's not legal and it's not entirely safe, but I really don't see any alternative in this country. Be sure to use the horn when undertaking, to make them aware of your presence - the kind of driver who sits in the overtaking lane is quite capable of changing lanes at any time without looking.

Fully agree, they are usually not the best drivers.

Henry Ford III

maoleary wrote:

I agree completely, but sometimes, it seems to be the only way to get ahead of a possibly dangerous situation when the individual in front is a twat. :rolleyes:

We've all been though it, a 100 kph car in a 120 zone in the overtaking lane with no cars in the slow lane for miles. Can you use the slow lane at the speed limit and overtake just by cruising at your normal pace? Does the slow lane have to move as slowly as the fast lane? A strange practice?

Nope. Your best best is to be patient, stay in the overtaking lane, and politely bring the errant lane discipline to the attention of the driver. Don't get mad as it will not help.

Stark

Anan1 wrote:

It's not legal and it's not entirely safe, but I really don't see any alternative in this country. Be sure to use the horn when undertaking, to make them aware of your presence - the kind of driver who sits in the overtaking lane is quite capable of changing lanes at any time without looking.

But surely the same risk applies when overtaking on the right, that someone could change lanes without looking?

I've done it a few times where I'd be happily driving along in the driving lane at 100kph/120kph(depending on whether it was dual carriageway or motorway) and there was a convoy of cars in the overtaking lane ahead doing well under the speed limit so I just continued on my way. Seemed like an acceptable risk to be clear of them at the time.

I do it most often on the N7, where it seems easier to continue on in the far left lane than to try and swing into the overtaking lane and then back into the far left lane when you encounter someone in the middle lane doing below the speed limit.

Mitch Connor

If you are already in the driving lane, and approach someone going under the speed limit in the overtaking lane, do you have to slow down to their speed, regardless of the empty road ahead of you, and current speed limit?

This happened to me a few weeks ago; when i got up alongside the guy (which i possibly shouldn't have done anway) he sped up to the correct speed so we were traveling side by side, he then tried to change into my lane with me beside him - which forced me partially on to the hard shoulder until he actually heard my car horn and pulled back into the overtaking lane (where he proceeded to hammer it up the motorway at well above the limit)

ambro25

maoleary wrote:

Can you use the slow lane at the speed limit and overtake just by cruising at your normal pace?

Yes according to

kbannon wrote:

Before someone else comes on and says it:
undertaking is legal in slow moving traffic and if traffic in the *overtaking* lane is moving slower than the *driving* lane.

Although not adequately defined, after speaking to a garda on this, it seems that the garda line is that if traffic isn't crawling along then you can't do it.

No according to

Henry Ford III wrote:

Nope. Your best best is to be patient, stay in the overtaking lane, and politely bring the errant lane discipline to the attention of the driver. Don't get mad as it will not help.

I wouldn't stay in the driving lane, I'd make sure I come into the overtaking lane behind the other car first, then invite the driver to move over, in order to permit a legal manoeuver.

I just undertake if the guy is proving to be an overtaking lane vigilante (after very numerous and docile invitations to shift, please). But then the advice is to drop one and floor it, you want to spend as little time as possible alongside the other car - in that respect, I'm not too worried about the guy pulling across, thx to Mr WRX

Stark

Tauren wrote:

If you are already in the driving lane, and approach someone going under the speed limit in the overtaking lane, do you have to slow down to their speed, regardless of the empty road ahead of you, and current speed limit?

Legally you should. Although when I do that, I try and keep a bit behind them to the left, so they can pull in if they choose to and I avoid driving in their blind spot.

Mitch Connor

Stark wrote:

Legally you should. Although when I do that, I try and keep a bit behind them to the left, so they can pull in if they choose to and I avoid driving in their blind spot.

fair enough - obviously the rule would be perfect if everyone was able to drive according to the rule (as there would be no need, nor chance, to undertake) but the idiots on the road make drving a lot more irritating then it needs to be.

rockbeer

maoleary wrote:

If you find yourself behind a car in the fast lane,

Which is the fast lane?

maoleary wrote:

and there is a lot of distance before the next car in the slow lane,

Which is the slow lane??

Get your terminology sorted out and you will have your answer.

Mitch Connor

rockbeer wrote:

Which is the fast lane?



Which is the slow lane??

Get your terminology sorted out and you will have your answer.

the fast lane is the one on the right, the slow lane is the one on the left. If the people in charge of the roads use these terms (and i see it a lot on the 6.1) I see no reason why people have to make a big deal regarding posters using them.

Lemming

Tauren wrote:

the fast lane is the one on the right, the slow lane is the one on the left.

And you'd have failed a driving test if such a question was asked (oh dear god I wish it was)

This is partly the reason why there are so many people in this country unable to use carriage-ways & motorways correctly. The mentality behind the use of lanes is implied by the language used to refer to them.

So everyone thinks "if I sit in the Fhhhhhest lane I'll get there quicker" :rolleyes:

The right lane is *not* the "fhhhhest" lane. it's the "over-taking" lane. In otherwords you're not meant to be in it unless you're performing an overtaking maneuver, not just "driving fhhhhhest".

fletch

I used to get enraged by this behaviour but now I just do as suggested above, make my presence known by indicating right/flashing full beams(short flash), if I get no reaction, I undertake as quick as I can giving a short beep of the horn as I pass.

Henry Ford III

ambro25 wrote:

I wouldn't stay in the driving lane, I'd make sure I come into the overtaking lane behind the other car first, then invite the driver to move over, in order to permit a legal manoeuver.

That's exactly what I meant :rolleyes:

rockbeer

Tauren wrote:

the fast lane is the one on the right, the slow lane is the one on the left.

Totally wrong. Nil points and back to driving school for you.

Tauren wrote:

If the people in charge of the roads use these terms (and i see it a lot on the 6.1) I see no reason why people have to make a big deal regarding posters using them.

Because they're incorrect. As lemming says, this contributes to the mass incomprehension in this country of how people should be driving on these roads.

Henry Ford III

Tauren wrote:

If you are already in the driving lane, and approach someone going under the speed limit in the overtaking lane, do you have to slow down to their speed, regardless of the empty road ahead of you, and current speed limit?

Yes.

DublinDilbert

At the moment it is illegal in Ireland to undertake.... in most other countries that have a far better record on road safety and driver training it is not illegal to undertake, i'm talking about the likes of canada where its not illegal to undertake. If you drive around toronto you could have 10 lanes at some points going in the same direction, now which is the fast / slow lane?

The reason this is going to have to change is soon we will have roads with 4 or more lanes going to the one direction... now which is the fast / slow lane?? what happens if 2 lanes on the right are splitting off to merge with another road, are these still considered the fast lane?? As the number of lanes increase this rule makes less and less sense...

For anyone who thinks it's dangerous, it's not, you should always check your blind spots when changing lanes, no matter if your moving from the "fast lane" into the "slow lane"... They only way an accident can happen is if someone doesn't check their blind spots which they should always do.

On a 2 lane road, even when your driving in the "fast" lane you should check your blind spots, as someone could come on from a slip road doing exactly the same speed as you, hence end up beside you, they haven't broken the law and are entitled to merge and drive at the same speed as your vehicle.

Mitch Connor

rockbeer wrote:

Totally wrong. Nil points and back to driving school for you.



Because they're incorrect. As lemming says, this contributes to the mass incomprehension in this country of how people should be driving on these roads.

But why make an issue of it? I know what they are supposed to be called, and i know when i am to use them. Calling them the slow and fast lane is hardly making me a poorer driver, and i don't think the idiots who don't know how to use them would be any better if you told them what the lanes are called (i'd actually be surprised if they didn't know anyway)

Lemming

Tauren wrote:

But why make an issue of it? I know what they are supposed to be called, and i know when i am to use them. Calling them the slow and fast lane is hardly making me a poorer driver, and i don't think the idiots who don't know how to use them would be any better if you told them what the lanes are called (i'd actually be surprised if they didn't know anyway)

Why make an issue of it? So that f*cktards the length and breadth of this country eventually have the message drilled into the back of their skulls (preferably by having someone jump up and down on their heads) on how to actually use these lanes.

And at the back of your mind ... regardless of how good you think you are (and everyone think's they're good) ... the mental note on the roads is attached to the language used.

is_that_so

I would tend to carry on in the driving lane. If the road is empty in front of me why would I pull out? The M1 in the mornings baffles me , where you can find over 50% of the traffic in the overtaking lane, overtaking traffic that is up to 400 metres ahead of it.

cooperguy

As a matter of interest what is the middle lane called? How are you supposed to use a 3 lane road? Iv only ever been on the widened motorway once (im from Limerick where the widest road is the Ennis bypass dual carriageway)

Lemming

is_that_so wrote:

I would tend to carry on in the driving lane. If the road is empty in front of me why would I pull out? The M1 in the mornings baffles me , where you can find over 50% of the traffic in the overtaking lane, overtaking traffic that is up to 400 metres ahead of it.

And this is what pretty much underscores the back-of-the-mind comment I made. Otherwise competent drivers still don't know how to use these roads and think that by staying in the over-taking lane they'll get past traffic 400m ahead in the driving lane "fhhhheeshter", because they're in the "fhhheest" lane.

LFCFan

The misuse of the terms Fast/Slow lanes only contributes to the already pathetic road behaviour in this country. I've seen plenty of cars hogging the 'Overtaking' lane despite no cars in the 'driving' lane. I flash them to pull over, they do, and then they pull back out to the overtaking lane again. The kind of mentality is the mentality that we have to wipe out if we're ever going to have a decent safety record on our roads.

Mitch Connor

Lemming wrote:

Why make an issue of it? So that f*cktards the length and breadth of this country eventually have the message drilled into the back of their skulls (preferably by having someone jump up and down on their heads) on how to actually use these lanes.

And at the back of your mind ... regardless of how good you think you are (and everyone think's they're good) ... the mental note on the roads is attached to the language used.

So, if I followed one of these overtaking lane muppets til the pulled in somewhere, and said "Excuse me, but the lane you might know as the fast lane is actually called the overtaking lane, and the lane known as the slow lane is actually the driving lane" they will then never misuse the overtaking lane again, will they what! The people that do this are poor drivers and i doubt the language they use to describe the roads has any eral impact on their crapness.

As for considering myself a good drvier, I don't. I consider myself a fairly safe driver (as in I am unlikely to kill anyone by losing control of the car) but little more, but i do not drive beyond where i feel comfortable, and do not attempt manouvers that I do not think I have the skill to perform (such as parallel parking....:o )

Stark

cooperguy wrote:

As a matter of interest what is the middle lane called? How are you supposed to use a 3 lane road? Iv only ever been on the widened motorway once (im from Limerick where the widest road is the Ennis bypass dual carriageway)

"Keep left" rule applies. If the left lane is clear, you should drive in the left lane. The far right lane has the usual overtaking lane rules. If there is light traffic in the far left lane that is moving more slowly than you, you're allowed stay in the middle lane. You don't have to move into the gaps in the far left lane traffic like you would in the far right overtaking lane.

DublinDilbert

Stark wrote:

"Keep left" rule applies. If the left lane is clear, you should drive in the left lane. The far right lane has the usual overtaking lane rules. If there is light traffic in the far left lane that is moving more slowly than you, you're allowed stay in the middle lane. You don't have to move into the gaps in the far left lane traffic like you would in the far right overtaking lane.

Does this "rule" scale well on larger roads? parts of the M50 are going to be 4 lanes wide once the upgrade is complete... Also from some of the diagrams there will be multiple lanes merging and leaving the main carriage ways...

Stark

Well the 4th lane on the M50 is going to be separate to the main 3 traffic lanes. It'll only be used by traffic going directly between adjacent major interchanges (such as the N4 and the N7 interchanges).

Curran

I've heard of a few people getting done by the Guards for misuse of the overtaking lane. I know of one person that was driving in the overtaking lane on the M50, no cars near him whatsoever, seen a car in the distance behind him - when he got to the end of the M50 the car began to close up to him in the driving lane - was the cops - pull him in for driving the whole way in the overtaking lane even though there wasnt a sinner about!!!

This is great to see - about time the Guards "got the finger out" and also great to see them doing people for tailgating as mentioned on the forum earlier!!!
If they keep it up - slowly but surely the standard of driving in this country may improve!!

Marcus.Aurelius

The names of the lanes (nice rhyme ) is not all that important folks, but does bring out an important point. If we refer to them as the driving lane and the overtaking lane, it becomes obvious as to how they should be used, the latter is only to be used to overtake traffic, and then you are required to resume in the driving lane. This simple system cannot be followed here, not because of its complexity but because many Irish people are thick, selfish and have a twisted sense of begrudgery to anyone overtaking them in any circumstances, this was highlighted in recent threads.

I will admit that I often undertake cars on the M50 and the N11 dual carriageway, out of frustration, yes. Out of neccessity, sometimes; so many of them are dangerous to be behind. I don't like having to do it, but sometimes it seems to be the only way to make some progress at the posted speed limit.

Zascar

I undertake all the time. I know its wrong and also can be dangerous, but if every Irish driver used correct lane positioning in the first place I would not have to undertake at all - I would prefer it that way, but I cannot see it happening any time soon.

I Always see drivers sitting in the overtaking lane doing 80-90KPH, whether there is anyone in the outside lane or not. I undertake cause if they are senseless enough to be sitting in the overtaking lane unaware that their road position is incorrect, they are often not bothered with checking their rear view mirror too often either. I always drive with my lights on, and I find that if you approach quickly (but not sit on their a*s or tailgate), they are more likely to move over when you appear in their rear view mirror. Hopefully they will move over, but if they do not move over I might give them a little flash of the lights, however I prefer not to do it, chances are they will not see you or will just ignore you - I find it easier to nip into the outside lane quickly pass them. It's less intrusive than forcing them to change position on the road. Most drivers on Irish roads are simply not confident in their driving. I am and I'd prefer to manoeuvre out of their way and just get past them and out of their way.

This is absolutely my main gripe about Irish Driving. In any other European countries I have driving in this is not a problem. In the UK try sitting in the overtaking lane for more than 15 seconds and you will be flashed and beeped off the road! They do not put up with bad positioning over there and neither should we! We are too polite on the road. It think if we encouraged more flashing and beeping it would let people know when they are driving badly and hopefully help to curtail the problem. We have a few road safety ads on TV but we need far more adds explaining correct lane positioning.

I don’t think this is something that the Gardai enforce, I’ve never had a run in and I do it all the time. Has anyone here been stopped for Undertaking?

Marcus.Aurelius

Zascar wrote:

This is absolutely my main gripe about Irish Driving. In any other European countries I have driving in this is not a problem. In the UK try sitting in the overtaking lane for more than 15 seconds and you will be flashed and beeped off the road! They do not put up with bad positioning over there and neither should we! We are too polite on the road. It think if we encouraged more flashing and beeping it would let people know when they are driving badly and hopefully help to curtail the problem. We have a few road safety ads on TV but we need far more adds explaining correct lane positioning.

I don’t think this is something that the Gardai enforce, I’ve never had a run in and I do it all the time. Has anyone here been stopped for Undertaking?

A revolution is afoot methinks!

I don't think I have (personally) heard of anyone being stopped for undertaking, perhaps the Gardaí are as sick of it as we are? :mad:

The_Op

Folks an awful lot of what been suggested on here has been laughable and ridiculous.

First of all motorways (also even dual carriageways) in Ireland result in fewer deaths proportionality than other roads so for getting a bee in your bonnet about people undertaking is probably using your energy in a way that could be better vented.

Secondly it is not clear whether it is illegal to undertake on a motorway or not. Part of our law says you shouldn't accelerate when someone is overtaking you and part of law says if traffic on an outside lane(yes I'm calling it an outside lane, for all those who were an*l enough to point out it's an overtaking lane, it is only technically an overtaking lane on a motorway, point me to where it says anywhere than it's an overtaking lane on a dual carriageway and I'll apologise) is sufficiently slow then you may overtake. Unfortunately the law as relates (to driving in particular) tells you what you can't do and not what you can, so it's up to interpretation of the law. It doesn't really matter what the gardai think to be honest, it'll be ajudge who decides.

Thirdly in my opinion, blocking an outside lane while not overtaking traffic shows more ignorance, thoughtlessness and carelessness that is indicative of the way a large number of people in Ireland drive then actually undertaking. In any other country in the world you would be driven off the road if you attempted to block a lane as such.

Marcus.Aurelius

Well, Gardaí could prosecute for:

Driver found to be driving carelessly (introduced 4 June 2004) Mandatory court appearance, 5 pts and Court Fine

Dangerous overtaking, 2 pts on ticket, €80, €120 in second 28 day period and 5 pts on conviction

Driving without reasonable consideration 2 pts on ticket, €80, €120 in second 28 day period and 4 pts on conviction

I know that there are a lot of Gardaí who wouldn't bother with a motorist passing out in this manner so long as he had no other choice and did so carefully. Perhaps this outdated law on undertaking should be abolished in line with some of our European and further abroad neighbours

patsyh

Not legal, do it all the time though if they dont move after flashing them.

Its amazing how much speed you lose having to slow down for muppets who sit on the OVERTAKING lane and then get aggressive when you flash the lights at them to move.

Henry Ford III

The_Op wrote:

Secondly it is not clear whether it is illegal to undertake on a motorway or not. Part of our law says you shouldn't accelerate when someone is overtaking you and part of law says if traffic on an outside lane(yes I'm calling it an outside lane, for all those who were an*l enough to point out it's an overtaking lane, it is only technically an overtaking lane on a motorway, point me to where it says anywhere than it's an overtaking lane on a dual carriageway and I'll apologise) is sufficiently slow then you may overtake. Unfortunately the law as relates (to driving in particular) tells you what you can't do and not what you can, so it's up to interpretation of the law. It doesn't really matter what the gardai think to be honest, it'll be ajudge who decides.

I think the legal position is quite clear. Keep left and overtake on the right.

"Using lanes properly

It is very important that you understand the purpose of each lane on a motorway. To help explain how and when to move from one lane to another, each lane is given a number. The picture below shows that lane 1 is the lane nearest the hard shoulder. This is also known as the inside lane. On a two-lane motorway, the lane nearest the central median is lane 2 (also called the outside lane). On a three-lane motorway, this lane is lane 3.

Motorway lanes

Lane 1

The normal 'keep left' rule applies. Stay in this lane unless you are overtaking.

Lane 2

On a two-lane motorway, use this for overtaking only and move back into lane 1 when you have finished. You may also use this lane to accommodate traffic merging from the left.

On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1.

Lane 3

If you are travelling on a three-lane motorway, you must use this lane only if traffic in lanes 1 and 2 is moving in queues and you need to overtake or accommodate merging traffic. Once you�ve finished overtaking, move back to your left and allow faster traffic coming from behind to pass by.

You must not use the lane nearest the central median (lane 2 or lane 3, depending on the motorway width) if you are driving:

* a goods vehicle with a design gross vehicle weight of more than 3,500 kilograms,
* a passenger vehicle with seating for more than 8 passengers (aside from the driver), or
* a vehicle towing a trailer, horsebox or caravan.

You may use it, however, in exceptional circumstances when you cannot proceed in the inner lane because of a blockage ahead. You may also use it if you are at a location on a motorway where a speed limit of 80km/h or less applies."

and.....

"Overtaking

Overtake only on the right, unless traffic is travelling in slow moving queues and the traffic queue on your right is travelling more slowly than you are. If you intend to move from a slower lane to a faster lane, adjust your speed first.

Before you start to overtake, remember 'mirror, signal, mirror, manoeuvre', and look in your blind spots. Check that the way is clear (behind and ahead) and signal well in advance.

Remember that traffic will be travelling a lot faster than on ordinary roads. Be particularly careful at dusk, during darkness, and in poor weather conditions when it is more difficult to judge speed, distance and stopping distance. Signal and return to your original lane as soon as possible."

Whilst I agree a lot of people use the outside or overtaking lane as a "quicker" lane, undertaking is merely falling to their level of poor driving.

The_Op

maoleary wrote:

Well, Gardaí could prosecute for:

Driver found to be driving carelessly (introduced 4 June 2004) Mandatory court appearance, 5 pts and Court Fine

Dangerous overtaking, 2 pts on ticket, €80, €120 in second 28 day period and 5 pts on conviction

Driving without reasonable consideration 2 pts on ticket, €80, €120 in second 28 day period and 4 pts on conviction

I know that there are a lot of Gardaí who wouldn't bother with a motorist passing out in this manner so long as he had no other choice and did so carefully. Perhaps this outdated law on undertaking should be abolished in line with some of our European and further abroad neighbours

Again though this is all based on a conviction and/or can be appealed to a judge. Anyone who doesn't have a record, presents a reasonable case with a decent barristor/solicitor with a judge would have a decent chance of getting no punishment for undertaking. So id reiterate it's a judge who decides.


There is no law that says definitively "it is against the law to undertake in all circumstances", in the same way that there is no law that says "it is legal to undertake". The law is at best vague and contradictory in this regard and states indirectely that it may be legal and that it may also be illegal. It would take a test case with no extenuating circumstances before you could be definite even then not really. I don't know enough about court history to say either way.

If you asked a solicitor whether is was legal or not I doubt they could tell you, so for people on here to say it's definetely illegal shows a complete arrogance and ignorance.

Reform is badly needed to our driving laws to be honest they're a farce.

Henry Ford III

Driving laws are fine. It's (some of) the drivers and the lack of even enforcement that's are the issues.

Standards are frighteningly low.

The_Op

Henry Ford III wrote:

Driving laws are fine. It's (some of) the drivers and the lack of even enforcement that's are the issues.

Standards are frighteningly low.

Well i don't think they're fine, they haven't been reformed properly in years...

I would agree with you driver attitude is the main problem...although an inconsistant law is never "fine".

Enforcement
Education(in schools particualrly from the age of 14,15, 16)
Engineering(there shouldn't be accident blackspots, if it happened in Germany for example a road that has more accidents then others is closed off and "fixed" until further notice).

These are the only three factors which consistanly have reduced deaths on roads in other countries. Scaremongering ads have little if any eveidence either way of effectivity. Anyway I'm gone off the point and gone into a rant i'll leave it alone.

unkel

First, let's clear one thing up: undertaking on the motorway is illegal in every situation except when both lanes are crawling, e.g. queuing up for the toll bridge on the M50

Zascar wrote:

This is absolutely my main gripe about Irish Driving. In any other European countries I have driving in this is not a problem. In the UK try sitting in the overtaking lane for more than 15 seconds and you will be flashed and beeped off the road!

Totally agree. You would in most European countries on the continent too. Try it in Italy and you'll literally be driven off the road

I've never undertaken in any other European country apart from Ireland. Over here I used to just keep politely flashing from a safe distance, but in the vast majority of cases this changed nothing. I reckon most drivers don't hog the overtaking lane on purpose, they just haven't a clue what's happening around them and don't even notice being flashed

More aggressive flashing from a less safe distance had a slightly better result, but I consider undertaking less unsafe than that. I don't want to frighten the lane hogger. You can usually undertake without the lane hogger even noticing until you're well passed. I do not use my horn during this for the same reason: it might frighten the lane hogger into doing something stupid

DublinDilbert

A point that many people are making is that it's about driver education, which i agree with... but a driving instructor in ireland is not allowed take an L-Driver on a motor way to teach them how to drive, so how are people supposed to learn?? Also none of the driving test is done on the motorway.

In other country's which are much more pro-active about driver training, an instructor can take a student onto a motor way, when the instructor feels that the student is capable of handling a car properly. Also the instructor will tell the student if they are merging too slowly onto the motor way... but in ireland it's a free for all, pass a theory test then drive anywhere you want by yourself...

This is why our driving licensing / testing system needs a serious over-haul, so we can actually teach young people how to drive!

sorry about the rant, i know it's kinda off the point!

rockbeer

unkel wrote:

I reckon most drivers don't hog the overtaking lane on purpose, they just haven't a clue what's happening around them

I agree - I think people genuinely don't understand - and this is directly related to the 'fast lane - slow lane' mentality.

I did a straw poll around my office. 6 of the 8 people, all fully licensed and experienced drivers, did not know that the outside lane is for overtaking only. They honestly thought it was fine to sit there as long as they were driving 'fast'. In fact, the two of us who understand how it's supposed to work had a tough time convincing them of the truth.

It's the same thing as when you flash somebody hogging the overtaking lane and they slam on the brakes in rebuke - they really and truly think they're driving properly. They obviously think it's somehow my problem if I don't like them sitting out there.

Driver ignorance - and nothing is being done about it. That's why I'm relentless about correcting the misnaming of the lanes, here and in other places, and I won't apologize for that. If one person reading this thread gets the facts into their head, that's one less muppet hogging the overtaking lanes on the N7 every morning.

rockbeer

rockbeer wrote:

Totally wrong. Nil points and back to driving school for you.



Because they're incorrect. As lemming says, this contributes to the mass incomprehension in this country of how people should be driving on these roads.

Well if people were told for years thats what they were whats the point in ramming down their throats what the technically correct term is.

I'd be more concerned that they have good lane discipline than what they choose to call it.

Lemming

ronoc wrote:

Well if people were told for years thats what they were whats the point in ramming down their throats what the technically correct term is.

Actually, if people were being "told" for years (and I question the source of that statement) then this is exactly the time to start ramming it down their throats. What's the alternative? Politely inform them? Wait for them all to die off?

lets look at this another way ... people drank and drove for years .... *cough*

I'd be more concerned that they have good lane discipline than what they choose to call it.

And good lane discipline comes, in part, from education. Education is not the silver bullet, but it is the foundation.

The_Op

unkel wrote:

First, let's clear one thing up: undertaking on the motorway is illegal in every situation except when both lanes are crawling, e.g. queuing up for the toll bridge on the M50

Again though thats your intepretation it doesnt actually say this anywhere. Show me the text that says this exactly? Define crawling.. for example is 5 mph crawling, is 10? is 15? is 20? what about 35? who decides at what point crawling becomes driving slowly. It's not defined. "Common sense" makes a nonsense out of the law and leaves it completely under the interpretation of a judge.

unkel

The_Op wrote:

Again though thats your intepretation it doesnt actually say this anywhere

Yep, you're right. It's not adequately defined as kbannon posted at the start of this thread. Perhaps you'll take his word for it though (or mine) that undertaking is illegal except in crawling traffic.

Gerry

Why can't they make tv ads showing correct lane discipline? They've no issue with making loads of scaremongering ads..
Its bloody ridiculous. I've been guilty of undertaking a bit on the motorway. I don't exceed the speed limit while doing it. I've tried flashing and indicators, but they never work. The only thing that works is aggressive tailgating, and thats not a brilliant idea. Theres plenty of people doing 80-90 km/h on 120 km/h sections of the m50, and you'll see a few people doing 50-60, they always look shocked when you pass them.

ambro25

DublinDilbert wrote:

In other country's which are much more pro-active about driver training, an instructor can take a student onto a motor way, when the instructor feels that the student is capable of handling a car properly.

FYI, motorway tuition is a compulsory portion of the driver training syllabus in France since, well... at least 1988 when I did it (but probably much longer before that).

From my now very hazy recollection, it comprised at least 7 essential learning points:
(i) how to accelerate on slipway to merge at traffic speed
(ii) periodically checking blind spot
(iii) constantly adjust to traffic speed without using breaks
(iv) lane discipline and motorway overtaking (keep right, pass left principle (LHD driving))
(v) use of lights and indicators on motorway (e.g. indication whilst overtaking (both sides - before, during, after; no full beams ever so long as there are cars in front of you on your side or across; etc.)
(vi) motorway exiting
(vii) and use of the hard shoulder (emergencies only, don't stay in the car, put up triangle, etc, etc)

Nearly 20 years ago.