Undertaking? Safe or legal?

Curran

I've heard of a few people getting done by the Guards for misuse of the overtaking lane. I know of one person that was driving in the overtaking lane on the M50, no cars near him whatsoever, seen a car in the distance behind him - when he got to the end of the M50 the car began to close up to him in the driving lane - was the cops - pull him in for driving the whole way in the overtaking lane even though there wasnt a sinner about!!!

This is great to see - about time the Guards "got the finger out" and also great to see them doing people for tailgating as mentioned on the forum earlier!!!
If they keep it up - slowly but surely the standard of driving in this country may improve!!

Marcus.Aurelius

The names of the lanes (nice rhyme ) is not all that important folks, but does bring out an important point. If we refer to them as the driving lane and the overtaking lane, it becomes obvious as to how they should be used, the latter is only to be used to overtake traffic, and then you are required to resume in the driving lane. This simple system cannot be followed here, not because of its complexity but because many Irish people are thick, selfish and have a twisted sense of begrudgery to anyone overtaking them in any circumstances, this was highlighted in recent threads.

I will admit that I often undertake cars on the M50 and the N11 dual carriageway, out of frustration, yes. Out of neccessity, sometimes; so many of them are dangerous to be behind. I don't like having to do it, but sometimes it seems to be the only way to make some progress at the posted speed limit.

Zascar

I undertake all the time. I know its wrong and also can be dangerous, but if every Irish driver used correct lane positioning in the first place I would not have to undertake at all - I would prefer it that way, but I cannot see it happening any time soon.

I Always see drivers sitting in the overtaking lane doing 80-90KPH, whether there is anyone in the outside lane or not. I undertake cause if they are senseless enough to be sitting in the overtaking lane unaware that their road position is incorrect, they are often not bothered with checking their rear view mirror too often either. I always drive with my lights on, and I find that if you approach quickly (but not sit on their a*s or tailgate), they are more likely to move over when you appear in their rear view mirror. Hopefully they will move over, but if they do not move over I might give them a little flash of the lights, however I prefer not to do it, chances are they will not see you or will just ignore you - I find it easier to nip into the outside lane quickly pass them. It's less intrusive than forcing them to change position on the road. Most drivers on Irish roads are simply not confident in their driving. I am and I'd prefer to manoeuvre out of their way and just get past them and out of their way.

This is absolutely my main gripe about Irish Driving. In any other European countries I have driving in this is not a problem. In the UK try sitting in the overtaking lane for more than 15 seconds and you will be flashed and beeped off the road! They do not put up with bad positioning over there and neither should we! We are too polite on the road. It think if we encouraged more flashing and beeping it would let people know when they are driving badly and hopefully help to curtail the problem. We have a few road safety ads on TV but we need far more adds explaining correct lane positioning.

I don’t think this is something that the Gardai enforce, I’ve never had a run in and I do it all the time. Has anyone here been stopped for Undertaking?

Marcus.Aurelius

Zascar wrote:

This is absolutely my main gripe about Irish Driving. In any other European countries I have driving in this is not a problem. In the UK try sitting in the overtaking lane for more than 15 seconds and you will be flashed and beeped off the road! They do not put up with bad positioning over there and neither should we! We are too polite on the road. It think if we encouraged more flashing and beeping it would let people know when they are driving badly and hopefully help to curtail the problem. We have a few road safety ads on TV but we need far more adds explaining correct lane positioning.

I don’t think this is something that the Gardai enforce, I’ve never had a run in and I do it all the time. Has anyone here been stopped for Undertaking?

A revolution is afoot methinks!

I don't think I have (personally) heard of anyone being stopped for undertaking, perhaps the Gardaí are as sick of it as we are? :mad:

The_Op

Folks an awful lot of what been suggested on here has been laughable and ridiculous.

First of all motorways (also even dual carriageways) in Ireland result in fewer deaths proportionality than other roads so for getting a bee in your bonnet about people undertaking is probably using your energy in a way that could be better vented.

Secondly it is not clear whether it is illegal to undertake on a motorway or not. Part of our law says you shouldn't accelerate when someone is overtaking you and part of law says if traffic on an outside lane(yes I'm calling it an outside lane, for all those who were an*l enough to point out it's an overtaking lane, it is only technically an overtaking lane on a motorway, point me to where it says anywhere than it's an overtaking lane on a dual carriageway and I'll apologise) is sufficiently slow then you may overtake. Unfortunately the law as relates (to driving in particular) tells you what you can't do and not what you can, so it's up to interpretation of the law. It doesn't really matter what the gardai think to be honest, it'll be ajudge who decides.

Thirdly in my opinion, blocking an outside lane while not overtaking traffic shows more ignorance, thoughtlessness and carelessness that is indicative of the way a large number of people in Ireland drive then actually undertaking. In any other country in the world you would be driven off the road if you attempted to block a lane as such.

Marcus.Aurelius

Well, Gardaí could prosecute for:

Driver found to be driving carelessly (introduced 4 June 2004) Mandatory court appearance, 5 pts and Court Fine

Dangerous overtaking, 2 pts on ticket, €80, €120 in second 28 day period and 5 pts on conviction

Driving without reasonable consideration 2 pts on ticket, €80, €120 in second 28 day period and 4 pts on conviction

I know that there are a lot of Gardaí who wouldn't bother with a motorist passing out in this manner so long as he had no other choice and did so carefully. Perhaps this outdated law on undertaking should be abolished in line with some of our European and further abroad neighbours

patsyh

Not legal, do it all the time though if they dont move after flashing them.

Its amazing how much speed you lose having to slow down for muppets who sit on the OVERTAKING lane and then get aggressive when you flash the lights at them to move.

Henry Ford III

The_Op wrote:

Secondly it is not clear whether it is illegal to undertake on a motorway or not. Part of our law says you shouldn't accelerate when someone is overtaking you and part of law says if traffic on an outside lane(yes I'm calling it an outside lane, for all those who were an*l enough to point out it's an overtaking lane, it is only technically an overtaking lane on a motorway, point me to where it says anywhere than it's an overtaking lane on a dual carriageway and I'll apologise) is sufficiently slow then you may overtake. Unfortunately the law as relates (to driving in particular) tells you what you can't do and not what you can, so it's up to interpretation of the law. It doesn't really matter what the gardai think to be honest, it'll be ajudge who decides.

I think the legal position is quite clear. Keep left and overtake on the right.

"Using lanes properly

It is very important that you understand the purpose of each lane on a motorway. To help explain how and when to move from one lane to another, each lane is given a number. The picture below shows that lane 1 is the lane nearest the hard shoulder. This is also known as the inside lane. On a two-lane motorway, the lane nearest the central median is lane 2 (also called the outside lane). On a three-lane motorway, this lane is lane 3.

Motorway lanes

Lane 1

The normal 'keep left' rule applies. Stay in this lane unless you are overtaking.

Lane 2

On a two-lane motorway, use this for overtaking only and move back into lane 1 when you have finished. You may also use this lane to accommodate traffic merging from the left.

On a three-lane motorway, you may stay in this centre lane while there is slower moving traffic in lane 1.

Lane 3

If you are travelling on a three-lane motorway, you must use this lane only if traffic in lanes 1 and 2 is moving in queues and you need to overtake or accommodate merging traffic. Once you�ve finished overtaking, move back to your left and allow faster traffic coming from behind to pass by.

You must not use the lane nearest the central median (lane 2 or lane 3, depending on the motorway width) if you are driving:

* a goods vehicle with a design gross vehicle weight of more than 3,500 kilograms,
* a passenger vehicle with seating for more than 8 passengers (aside from the driver), or
* a vehicle towing a trailer, horsebox or caravan.

You may use it, however, in exceptional circumstances when you cannot proceed in the inner lane because of a blockage ahead. You may also use it if you are at a location on a motorway where a speed limit of 80km/h or less applies."

and.....

"Overtaking

Overtake only on the right, unless traffic is travelling in slow moving queues and the traffic queue on your right is travelling more slowly than you are. If you intend to move from a slower lane to a faster lane, adjust your speed first.

Before you start to overtake, remember 'mirror, signal, mirror, manoeuvre', and look in your blind spots. Check that the way is clear (behind and ahead) and signal well in advance.

Remember that traffic will be travelling a lot faster than on ordinary roads. Be particularly careful at dusk, during darkness, and in poor weather conditions when it is more difficult to judge speed, distance and stopping distance. Signal and return to your original lane as soon as possible."

Whilst I agree a lot of people use the outside or overtaking lane as a "quicker" lane, undertaking is merely falling to their level of poor driving.

The_Op

maoleary wrote:

Well, Gardaí could prosecute for:

Driver found to be driving carelessly (introduced 4 June 2004) Mandatory court appearance, 5 pts and Court Fine

Dangerous overtaking, 2 pts on ticket, €80, €120 in second 28 day period and 5 pts on conviction

Driving without reasonable consideration 2 pts on ticket, €80, €120 in second 28 day period and 4 pts on conviction

I know that there are a lot of Gardaí who wouldn't bother with a motorist passing out in this manner so long as he had no other choice and did so carefully. Perhaps this outdated law on undertaking should be abolished in line with some of our European and further abroad neighbours

Again though this is all based on a conviction and/or can be appealed to a judge. Anyone who doesn't have a record, presents a reasonable case with a decent barristor/solicitor with a judge would have a decent chance of getting no punishment for undertaking. So id reiterate it's a judge who decides.


There is no law that says definitively "it is against the law to undertake in all circumstances", in the same way that there is no law that says "it is legal to undertake". The law is at best vague and contradictory in this regard and states indirectely that it may be legal and that it may also be illegal. It would take a test case with no extenuating circumstances before you could be definite even then not really. I don't know enough about court history to say either way.

If you asked a solicitor whether is was legal or not I doubt they could tell you, so for people on here to say it's definetely illegal shows a complete arrogance and ignorance.

Reform is badly needed to our driving laws to be honest they're a farce.

Henry Ford III

Driving laws are fine. It's (some of) the drivers and the lack of even enforcement that's are the issues.

Standards are frighteningly low.

The_Op

Henry Ford III wrote:

Driving laws are fine. It's (some of) the drivers and the lack of even enforcement that's are the issues.

Standards are frighteningly low.

Well i don't think they're fine, they haven't been reformed properly in years...

I would agree with you driver attitude is the main problem...although an inconsistant law is never "fine".

Enforcement
Education(in schools particualrly from the age of 14,15, 16)
Engineering(there shouldn't be accident blackspots, if it happened in Germany for example a road that has more accidents then others is closed off and "fixed" until further notice).

These are the only three factors which consistanly have reduced deaths on roads in other countries. Scaremongering ads have little if any eveidence either way of effectivity. Anyway I'm gone off the point and gone into a rant i'll leave it alone.

unkel

First, let's clear one thing up: undertaking on the motorway is illegal in every situation except when both lanes are crawling, e.g. queuing up for the toll bridge on the M50

Zascar wrote:

This is absolutely my main gripe about Irish Driving. In any other European countries I have driving in this is not a problem. In the UK try sitting in the overtaking lane for more than 15 seconds and you will be flashed and beeped off the road!

Totally agree. You would in most European countries on the continent too. Try it in Italy and you'll literally be driven off the road

I've never undertaken in any other European country apart from Ireland. Over here I used to just keep politely flashing from a safe distance, but in the vast majority of cases this changed nothing. I reckon most drivers don't hog the overtaking lane on purpose, they just haven't a clue what's happening around them and don't even notice being flashed

More aggressive flashing from a less safe distance had a slightly better result, but I consider undertaking less unsafe than that. I don't want to frighten the lane hogger. You can usually undertake without the lane hogger even noticing until you're well passed. I do not use my horn during this for the same reason: it might frighten the lane hogger into doing something stupid

DublinDilbert

A point that many people are making is that it's about driver education, which i agree with... but a driving instructor in ireland is not allowed take an L-Driver on a motor way to teach them how to drive, so how are people supposed to learn?? Also none of the driving test is done on the motorway.

In other country's which are much more pro-active about driver training, an instructor can take a student onto a motor way, when the instructor feels that the student is capable of handling a car properly. Also the instructor will tell the student if they are merging too slowly onto the motor way... but in ireland it's a free for all, pass a theory test then drive anywhere you want by yourself...

This is why our driving licensing / testing system needs a serious over-haul, so we can actually teach young people how to drive!

sorry about the rant, i know it's kinda off the point!

rockbeer

unkel wrote:

I reckon most drivers don't hog the overtaking lane on purpose, they just haven't a clue what's happening around them

I agree - I think people genuinely don't understand - and this is directly related to the 'fast lane - slow lane' mentality.

I did a straw poll around my office. 6 of the 8 people, all fully licensed and experienced drivers, did not know that the outside lane is for overtaking only. They honestly thought it was fine to sit there as long as they were driving 'fast'. In fact, the two of us who understand how it's supposed to work had a tough time convincing them of the truth.

It's the same thing as when you flash somebody hogging the overtaking lane and they slam on the brakes in rebuke - they really and truly think they're driving properly. They obviously think it's somehow my problem if I don't like them sitting out there.

Driver ignorance - and nothing is being done about it. That's why I'm relentless about correcting the misnaming of the lanes, here and in other places, and I won't apologize for that. If one person reading this thread gets the facts into their head, that's one less muppet hogging the overtaking lanes on the N7 every morning.

rockbeer

rockbeer wrote:

Totally wrong. Nil points and back to driving school for you.



Because they're incorrect. As lemming says, this contributes to the mass incomprehension in this country of how people should be driving on these roads.

Well if people were told for years thats what they were whats the point in ramming down their throats what the technically correct term is.

I'd be more concerned that they have good lane discipline than what they choose to call it.

Lemming

ronoc wrote:

Well if people were told for years thats what they were whats the point in ramming down their throats what the technically correct term is.

Actually, if people were being "told" for years (and I question the source of that statement) then this is exactly the time to start ramming it down their throats. What's the alternative? Politely inform them? Wait for them all to die off?

lets look at this another way ... people drank and drove for years .... *cough*

I'd be more concerned that they have good lane discipline than what they choose to call it.

And good lane discipline comes, in part, from education. Education is not the silver bullet, but it is the foundation.

The_Op

unkel wrote:

First, let's clear one thing up: undertaking on the motorway is illegal in every situation except when both lanes are crawling, e.g. queuing up for the toll bridge on the M50

Again though thats your intepretation it doesnt actually say this anywhere. Show me the text that says this exactly? Define crawling.. for example is 5 mph crawling, is 10? is 15? is 20? what about 35? who decides at what point crawling becomes driving slowly. It's not defined. "Common sense" makes a nonsense out of the law and leaves it completely under the interpretation of a judge.

unkel

The_Op wrote:

Again though thats your intepretation it doesnt actually say this anywhere

Yep, you're right. It's not adequately defined as kbannon posted at the start of this thread. Perhaps you'll take his word for it though (or mine) that undertaking is illegal except in crawling traffic.

Gerry

Why can't they make tv ads showing correct lane discipline? They've no issue with making loads of scaremongering ads..
Its bloody ridiculous. I've been guilty of undertaking a bit on the motorway. I don't exceed the speed limit while doing it. I've tried flashing and indicators, but they never work. The only thing that works is aggressive tailgating, and thats not a brilliant idea. Theres plenty of people doing 80-90 km/h on 120 km/h sections of the m50, and you'll see a few people doing 50-60, they always look shocked when you pass them.

ambro25

DublinDilbert wrote:

In other country's which are much more pro-active about driver training, an instructor can take a student onto a motor way, when the instructor feels that the student is capable of handling a car properly.

FYI, motorway tuition is a compulsory portion of the driver training syllabus in France since, well... at least 1988 when I did it (but probably much longer before that).

From my now very hazy recollection, it comprised at least 7 essential learning points:
(i) how to accelerate on slipway to merge at traffic speed
(ii) periodically checking blind spot
(iii) constantly adjust to traffic speed without using breaks
(iv) lane discipline and motorway overtaking (keep right, pass left principle (LHD driving))
(v) use of lights and indicators on motorway (e.g. indication whilst overtaking (both sides - before, during, after; no full beams ever so long as there are cars in front of you on your side or across; etc.)
(vi) motorway exiting
(vii) and use of the hard shoulder (emergencies only, don't stay in the car, put up triangle, etc, etc)

Nearly 20 years ago.

LFCFan

ambro25 wrote:

FYI, motorway tuition is a compulsory portion of the driver training syllabus in France since, well... at least 1988 when I did it (but probably much longer before that).

From my now very hazy recollection, it comprised at least 7 essential learning points:
(i) how to accelerate on slipway to merge at traffic speed
(ii) periodically checking blind spot
(iii) constantly adjust to traffic speed without using breaks
(iv) lane discipline and motorway overtaking (keep right, pass left principle (LHD driving))
(v) use of lights and indicators on motorway (e.g. indication whilst overtaking (both sides - before, during, after; no full beams ever so long as there are cars in front of you on your side or across; etc.)
(vi) motorway exiting
(vii) and use of the hard shoulder (emergencies only, don't stay in the car, put up triangle, etc, etc)

Nearly 20 years ago.

Yeah, but we know how to reverse around a corner

ambro25

LFCFan wrote:

Yeah, but we know how to reverse around a corner

Two Irish learner drivers discuss the driving test failure of one of them.

The first learner goes - "I just don't get it, I did everything right! So, we approach this roundabout and there's this '30' sign before it, so off I go and lap the roundabout 30 times, right?!?"

The second learner goes - "And he failed you? Did he at least tell you by how many laps you got it wrong?"

Stark

/tumbleweed

ambro25

I'll get me coat

Bah! Ye still can't drive to save yer life anyways

JHMEG

The answer to the original question, straight from the Rules of the Road:

"REMEMBER
You must normally overtake on the right. However, you are allowed to overtake on the left in the situations listed below.

You may overtake on the left when:
- You want to go straight ahead when the driver in front of you has moved out and signalled that they intend to turn right.
- You have signalled that you intend to turn left.
- Traffic in both lanes is moving slowly and traffic in the left-hand lane is moving more quickly than the traffic in the right-hand lane."

The only fuzzy bit there is how slow is slowly.

Capt'n Midnight

I'm tired of people driving at 60-70kph with an empty lane beside them in an 80kph zone. Sort of thing you just don't see abroad, or when you do then they generally have the indicator going and pop back in whenever there is a decent gap.

But it's worse on the N4 heading from the M50 to Lucan - they sit in the middle lane. to pass them legally you have to move two lanes to your right, overtake and then back over two lanes.

We don't have Fast Lanes in this country.
We don't have Freeways here either (where you are free to drive at any speed in any lane)

You are supposed to drive on the left, not as close to the middle of the road as you can. Most of our urban link roads are wasted. They are wide enough for cars to overtake provided everyone stays to the left. Most drivers don't so you can't over take and the wide lanes encourage lazy drivers.

Anyone got that sign from Oz - keep left - penalty $1000 ?

unkel

ambro25 wrote:

FYI, motorway tuition is a compulsory portion of the driver training syllabus in France since, well... at least 1988 when I did it (but probably much longer before that).

From my now very hazy recollection, it comprised at least 7 essential learning points:
(i) how to accelerate on slipway to merge at traffic speed
(ii) periodically checking blind spot
(iii) constantly adjust to traffic speed without using breaks
(iv) lane discipline and motorway overtaking (keep right, pass left principle (LHD driving))
(v) use of lights and indicators on motorway (e.g. indication whilst overtaking (both sides - before, during, after; no full beams ever so long as there are cars in front of you on your side or across; etc.)
(vi) motorway exiting
(vii) and use of the hard shoulder (emergencies only, don't stay in the car, put up triangle, etc, etc)

Nearly 20 years ago.

Exactly. With (i) by far the most difficult to become competent and confident in

My experience is nearly identical to yours, although it was a couple of years before yours and in another EU country. At least a third of all driving lesson time was spent on motorways, including joining and exiting them

saobh_ie

You definitely don't observe people sitting in overtaking lanes in Europe as Cap'n Midnight said, well not usually. There was one occasion where I was travelling at a sedate 160km/h in the driving lane of a French motorway when I spotted a dot ahead in the distance.

Five minutes later I came upon an Irish Registered car, bimbling along at a mere 120kmh (may as well have been stopped) in the overtaking lane with not a car in sight for five miles ahead and not one in sight for five miles behind.

I under took and gestured furiously for them to move over to the driving lane but was steadfastly ignored... I moved away apace lest a French national come cruising along at 200kmh and happen upon that stupid soul disgracing and bringing ridicule upon our nation.

As for flashing headlights at cars ambling along in the overtaking lane, chill out!!! Try a short blast of nice friendly orange right indicator. Three flashes, off for six seconds and three more flashes as you approach. I’ve observed it working wonders, especially on the M7. Even the BMW drivers doing 140 see you coming in their mirrors and get the flock out of the way. Ditto the Ford Focus 120 people and the Opel drivers at 100.

The odd time you’ll get somebody who just doesn’t look in his or her mirrors. They’re best undertaken as fast as you can possibly go after observing their behaviour and flashing your indicator on and off for a few minutes. Change to the driving lane, drop one or two gears and floor it.

BostonB

Tauren wrote:

If you are already in the driving lane, and approach someone going under the speed limit in the overtaking lane, do you have to slow down to their speed, regardless of the empty road ahead of you, and current speed limit?

This happened to me a few weeks ago; when i got up alongside the guy (which i possibly shouldn't have done anway) he sped up to the correct speed so we were traveling side by side, he then tried to change into my lane with me beside him - which forced me partially on to the hard shoulder until he actually heard my car horn and pulled back into the overtaking lane (where he proceeded to hammer it up the motorway at well above the limit)

Oh for James Bonds Aston Martin DB5 and its tyre shredding hub-caps.

I generally just stay along side these people and match their speed. They always do something, either pull ahead, or drop back. I might inch ahead very slowly.

BostonB

saobh_ie wrote:

...
As for flashing headlights at cars ambling along in the overtaking lane, chill out!!! Try a short blast of nice friendly orange right indicator. Three flashes, off for six seconds and three more flashes as you approach. I’ve observed it working wonders, especially on the M7.....

That because they think you are indicating to undertake and they move over to cut you off. Leaving the lane free to overtake. Nice reverse Psychology.