If you were manager of Dublin Bus...

Metrobest

It's wrong of you to put a line through my points, which are ALL valid.

I was careful to only include things that are controlled by DB management, directly or indirectly.

For example, Dublin Bus has taken upon itself to introduce its own cheapo smartcards which won't be compatible with RPA or IE. You can be damn sure the DoT didn't want that to happen.

As for competion, it's Dublin Bus that is blocking that.

Useless at so many things, plagued by inertia, Dublin Bus management gets very feisty when its own interests are threatened.

Enough of the pro Dublin Bus propaganda on this forum, it's really starting to annoy me.

The dogs on the street know Dublin Bus is not meeting the city's expectations or needs.

People have to stop being apologists for Dublin Bus's terrible management - why are these buffoons getting paid their fat salaries if they can't run a proper city bus service like every other city?

And if the Department of Tranport controls these issues, which is most certainly doesn't, then why don't we rename Dublin Bus "Bus Atha Cullen"? :cool:

Chillwithcian

Metrobest wrote:

It's wrong of you to put a line through my points, which are ALL valid.

As for competion, it's Dublin Bus that is blocking that.

Enough of the pro Dublin Bus propaganda on this forum, it's really starting to annoy me.

People have to stop being apologists for Dublin Bus's terrible management - why are these buffoons getting paid their fat salaries if they can't run a proper city bus service like every other city?
:cool:

You make a good point!

AlekSmart

Quote [Metrobest]:

Enough of the pro Dublin Bus propaganda on this forum, it's really starting to annoy me. [End]

Ah here now Metrobest a chara,...let`s keep a perspective on this.
After all this IS a forum where interested individuals can Post,Discuss and DISAGREE with various points of view.

To suggest that there is a Dublin Bus "Propaganda" element at work on Boards.ie is.....well.....Kinda meglomaniac...?

Victors magic pencil obviously raised your hackles somewhat but it`s use was valid nonetheless.

Bus Atha Cliath is a creature of the State and is at all times under the direct remit of the Dept of Transport.

Today,to a far greater extent than ever before,the Dept of Transport keeps a VERY close rein on the operations of Bus Atha Cliath.
Often this rein is in DIRECT conflict with passenger requirements as your hitlist of BAC management "shortcomings" tends to show.
Timetable.
Ticketing
Competition
Operations
Four areas where BAC are totally at the mercy of Departmental whimsy to an extent which many fail to appreciate.

Any variation to a pre-existing timetable must be submitted to the Department for its approval as it appears now to be regarded as a material alteration to a route licence.

The Department of Transport has already been thoroughly indicted by the Comptroller and Auditor General on at least 2 occasions now in relation to the so called "Smart Card" tendering fiasco.

The "Cheapo Smart Card" you speak of will be far superior to the present Mag Stripe system which is on it`s last legs.
This "Cheapo" system will also be infinitely preferable to the current alternatives on offer,which amount to....?.....Well...Nothing !
The current situation whereby some €16 Million has been spent with NOTHING to show for it has absolutely NOTHING to do with Bus Atha Cliath management.
Perhaps MetroB could seek clarification as to why the Dept of Transport failed to fund the "Electronic Purse" cards after the initial EU funded trials some 10 years ago or is that a BAC management Failing also ?

I fail to see any apologists for BAC management here on this board,I do see those who have an understanding of the reality being at 6`s & 7`s with those who have expectations of vast improvements made overnight.

Sorry MetroB but your anti-BAC rhetoric although based on genuine observations is also evidence of "Propaganda" at work and serves to do little only allow the real Power Brokers to slip away into the dark night.

Anyway I hope your annoyance level has`nt become too extreme for now !!!!

Capt'n Midnight

Metrobest wrote:

ATTITUDE

I would stop playing the victim card and build a good relationship with the government. I would stop whingeing for more subsidies and realise that I am operating in an almost unique city environment where there is a smorgasbord of high volume routes that would be serviced by tram or metro in other cities. The profits I generate from these high volume routes will allow me to operate PSO routes at minimal or zero subsidy.

IIRC Dublin bus claim that the subsidy the government give them is about the same amount as the revenue they loose due to congestion.

So since the Goverment hasn't given them the buses to sort out the traffic or otherwise reduce it, it's not really a subsidy. Most of the rest of the problems are Gov't related, if by omission.

Subsidy levels are very low compared to other countries, city buses on the continent are very cheap compared to here. I would not like us to be like the UK where operators sell on buses to the next guy down the chain and where you have instances where 10% of buses in one northern-midlands city where deemed so unsafe that the bus wasn't allowed to procced further. The private buses down the country have been great, and the few private ones that run to the airport seem fine, but I fear a race to the bottom with private operators, or judged by the governments handling of other private ventures a screw up on the original proposal so that they have to close the stable door or do damage limitation after another Eircom, M50 toll bridge, BUPA etc,

Later buses would be an idea - but the problem there is the passengers in many areas.

Better policing of buses, increase fines so that policing isn't so costly or otherwise allocate the cost to keep the beancounters happy - less vandalism . Or try the approach they used in New York, they arrested any ticket evaders on the subway and processed (fingerprint ?) them while they had them, picked up a lot of people for other more serious stuff.

Better ticket options - Travel 90 isn't great, maybe travel 120 so you can complete a two bus journey during rush hour or in the evenings

Bus routes - ( assuming there are more buses provided ) less routes that go to O'Connell street , so people don't have to change and less congestion in the city centre - more suburban routes.

Change planning permission laws so that when a bus shelter is in front of a wall it doesn't need to be made of glass.

Get SDCC to sort out their bus lanes 80% of the commuters in Lucan/Clondalkin work out side the area, so while the bus routes to town are good, people going elsewhere, even only a few miles away, rely a lot on cars because to get a bus connection takes ages during rush hour
FFS - don't paint BUS LANE on roads if there aren't any buses !
Nangor road, newlands road, outer ring road = 3 QBC's = one LUAS
One Luas = several hundred million to build.
instead it's solid traffic at rush hour ( ok cars only use the bus lanes on part of the outer ring road but still..)
The whole Idea of a QBC is that you don't get stuck in traffic, it's a key to getting people out of their cars.


Provide Schoolbuses (funding would have to come from govt. )
http://roads.southdublin.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=228&Itemid=272

The increased use of the car on the school runs contributes to peak hour traffic congestion, local pollution, the lack of fitness in children, and road safety hazards near school entrances. It is estimated that 20% of all car journeys during the morning peak hour are related to the school run.

Don't forget that 20% of journeys probably translates into more than 20% traffic since a good few parents will have to double back or divert. By comparison adding an extra lane to the M50 could provide up to 33% more capacity if there was no bottle neck on the link roads. Building the port tunnel has reduced traffic by 20% ?? Buying the M50 Bridge will speed up traffic by ??
Banning unlicensed drivers and providing schoolbuses could free up more space on our roads than than the big construction projects and at a tiny faction of the cost.

markpb

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Better policing of buses, increase fines so that policing isn't so costly or otherwise allocate the cost to keep the beancounters happy - less vandalism . Or try the approach they used in New York, they arrested any ticket evaders on the subway and processed (fingerprint ?) them while they had them, picked up a lot of people for other more serious stuff.

Definitely. Could not agree more. One of the problems with travelling DB is the unsavoury characters who populate upstairs on several routes.

Better ticket options - Travel 90 isn't great, maybe travel 120 so you can complete a two bus journey during rush hour or in the evenings

You know the 90 minute ticket means you must start your last journey no later than 90 minutes after your first one? You can remain on the bus(es) more than 90 minutes perfectly legally.

Red Alert

The 'cheapo' smart card system will be environmentally unfriendly as the cards (which DB has insisted are disposable / not rechargeable) will not be as easily recyclable. The Mag Stripe system is only on its last legs because they didn't do the TGX interface to it properly and it's not very robust (although since the latest update it doesn't seem to be that bad at all). In fact I think the RPA's smartcard (which conforms to the ITSO standard) should be rolled out on the buses - by government mandate if DB refuse. The Wayfarer TGX has support for it and the readers are on the buses, so DB can't claim a technological problem.

The AVM system seeminly was a wonder in its time, but GPS and other technologies have appeared. Nevertheless it should have been kept going until a replacement system was there to replace it.

markpb

Red Alert wrote:

The 'cheapo' smart card system will be environmentally unfriendly as the cards (which DB has insisted are disposable / not rechargeable) will not be as easily recyclable.

I never understood why they wanted a disposable smartcard, especially considering the cost (relative to magstripe). It would be relatively simple to change weekly, monthly and annual cards to smartcard and let owners reload them with a single type of ticket. Even changing these people to smartcard should have a huge effect on dwell times.

In fact I think the RPA's smartcard (which conforms to the ITSO standard) should be rolled out on the buses - by government mandate if DB refuse. The Wayfarer TGX has support for it and the readers are on the buses, so DB can't claim a technological problem.

The RPA smartcard? The one that doesn't exist?

AlekSmart

One of the least savoury aspects of the present impasse is that each operator has,in the absence of ANY clear guidance or direction from above,embarked upon their own version of ticketing.

For example I have only recently learned that Mortons Circle Line services did not issue ordinary tickets at all !
However,it now appears that following complaints from a small number of customers and a swift reaction from an ever-vigilant Dept of Transport,Circle Line passengers MUST now be in possession of a Ticket valid for the journey they are making.

ANY ticketing system intended for use on a major urban system MUST be easily understandable and flexible in its use.
What we have at the moment is a total mess,developed in a Vacuum left by Political infighting over Dogma.

However as the recent London developments show it`s not only ourselves that fight over this stuff.
The roll out of Oyster card on the London National Rail network only became possible after considerable (and expensive) horse-trading between Mayor Livingston and the Rail Operators.
It also appears that the format of Smart Card was/is(?) also an issue there which remains clouded to some extent.

Red Alert

The LUAS smart card (what i meant by RPA one- sorry) is here already and technically can be read by the equipment on-board buses.

Seen as martin cullen/dept of transport is running both the high-level LUAS operation and dublin bus, why has nobody sat the two of them down and decreed a solution which they both must implement.

Victor

markpb wrote:

The RPA smartcard? The one that doesn't exist?

It works on Luas and Mortons.

markpb

Red Alert wrote:

The LUAS smart card (what i meant by RPA one- sorry) is here already and technically can be read by the equipment on-board buses.

Ah, sorry :-) I'm curious, is the card a proper ITSO card or is it just a stored-cash card? It would be fairly difficult to make a stored-cash card work on Dublin Bus without requiring the driver to be involved or switching to a tap-on, tap-off mode which would aggravate the awful dwell times we already have.

AlekSmart

AFAIK The Mortons/RPA Card is a stored value card.
The ONLY way forward here is for the Government to IMMEDIATELY sanction a single Flat Bus Fare for BAC services.

The current Fare/Stage setup predates Bianconi and is no longer relevant to the travelling needs of the GREATER number of Bus Users.

The setting of a Flat Fare does NOT impede the use of a lesser special short Central Zone fare which could easily be accomodated by the current TGX machine with only minimal driver input required.

It ALL about Revenue allocation which REMAINS the reserved function of the Dept of Transport.....over to you Martin ..!!!

bk

While less flexible, even a stored value card system could work on DB.

Have the person tag on as they get on the bus and tag off again as they get off. If they don't tag off,then they are charged the full fear. The location of the bus would be calculated by the buses GPS system.

Of course the disadvantage of this is that it would reduce disembark times. However this problem could be reduced by allowing people tag off, before the bus stops (charge them up as far as the next stop) and also put tag off/on machines in the city centre and other busy locations (along QBC's etc.).

Obviously a single fare would be preferable. Something like London, say €3 for all cash fares and €1 for all smart card fares. It would have the advantage of attracting people to using the smartcard.

Having said all that, there is absolutely no excuse for the weekly, monthly, yearly and multi trip not to be on smart cards and there is no excuse for this not being shared with Dart, commuter rail and luas.

markpb

bk wrote:

Have the person tag on as they get on the bus and tag off again as they get off. If they don't tag off,then they are charged the full fear. The location of the bus would be calculated by the buses GPS system. Of course the disadvantage of this is that it would reduce disembark times.

It's hardly an optimal solution Dwell times are pretty brutal as it stands without making things worse. And you _know_ there'll be plenty of bats who put their ticket at the bottom of their bag and won't be able to find it.

However this problem could be reduced by allowing people tag off, before the bus stops (charge them up as far as the next stop) and also put tag off/on machines in the city centre and other busy locations (along QBC's etc.).

Without more inspectors I can't see them going for this because people would tag off as soon as they get on.

Obviously a single fare would be preferable. Something like London, say €3 for all cash fares and €1 for all smart card fares. It would have the advantage of attracting people to using the smartcard.

Having said all that, there is absolutely no excuse for the weekly, monthly, yearly and multi trip not to be on smart cards and there is no excuse for this not being shared with Dart, commuter rail and luas.

Zing and Zing. In the real world, both of these would be done as part of the rollout of a smartcard ticket. In Dublin....

bk

markpb wrote:

It's hardly an optimal solution Dwell times are pretty brutal as it stands without making things worse. And you _know_ there'll be plenty of bats who put their ticket at the bottom of their bag and won't be able to find it.

Typically people make two types of trips, into town and out of town.

Travelling into town there would be no increase in dwell times, it might actually decrease.

Tag on getting onto the bus, same or likely quicker then the current card system.

When you arrive in the city centre, get straight off the bus and tag off on street side tag off machines.

Travelling out of town there would be some increase.

Tag on getting onto the bus, same or likely quicker then the current card system.

Tag off on the bus when getting off the bus. This would increase dwell times, but wouldn't be that bad as typically only a few people get off at each stop and they could tag off as they wait for the bus to stop.

It would be doable, but it is obviously less then optimal and would probably confuse a lot of people and not really work well.

markpb wrote:

Without more inspectors I can't see them going for this because people would tag off as soon as they get on.

The tag off would be across from the driver and make a loud buzz, so he could watch out for fare evaders.

markpb wrote:

Zing and Zing. In the real world, both of these would be done as part of the rollout of a smartcard ticket. In Dublin....

Of course this would be the best solution.

Capt'n Midnight

On some Italian buses the validating machines are not right at the door, so everyone gets on, the bus pulls away, and then you validate the ticket before the bus gets to the next stop. It's a ticket only system so driver doesn't have to have cash etc.


Maybe have express buses that DON'T take cash. Ticket only. But you would need to spend a lot on an ad campaign so even thick people would know not to waste time trying to get on them.

mickoneill30

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Maybe have express buses that DON'T take cash. Ticket only. But you would need to spend a lot on an ad campaign so even thick people would know not to waste time trying to get on them.

Wouldn't work. I get an express buss home every day and even when the driver shouts that he's only going to stop at certain stops we still get one or two thickos every night insisting the bus stops where they want it.

markpb

mickoneill30 wrote:

Wouldn't work. I get an express buss home every day and even when the driver shouts that he's only going to stop at certain stops we still get one or two thickos every night insisting the bus stops where they want it.

That happens when I get the express buses too but the drivers flatly refuse to stop which is fair enough. On the other hand, expresso bus stops should have route maps showing the stops so people don't have to ask the driver before they get on or get a surprise when they can't get off. It's mostly down to the DB's usual rubbish level of communication with its customers.

And yes, they should definitely be ticket only.

Metrobest

mickoneill30 wrote:

Wouldn't work. I get an express buss home every day and even when the driver shouts that he's only going to stop at certain stops we still get one or two thickos every night insisting the bus stops where they want it.

Pre-pay only buses are being rolled out in Sydney and they are going down a treat.

The route 380 to Bondi Beach has some of the worst dwell times in the city with tourists asking the driver half a million questions every time the bus stops.

The new limited stops pre-pay only route 333 plies this route - the destination board at the front of the bus is unmistakenly clear - "PRE PAY ONLY" written in huge letters. The numbers 333 also makes it clear this is a special route.

It's marvellous, and regular commuters are loving the faster journey time. While the elongated bendy bus is never quite full, I've watched demand on this route go from a trickle into a stream.

And as they watch the pre-pay bus whizz by, passengers without prepaid tickets are spurred into action to stop paying cash on board.

tamburlaine

No need for timetables at stops at all. It's risible. It's fooling the punter when the bus arrives an hour after it was timetalbled. The fookin gall.

KC61

tamburlaine wrote:

No need for timetables at stops at all. It's risible. It's fooling the punter when the bus arrives an hour after it was timetalbled. The fookin gall.

There are certain routes with serious issues currently regarding timekeeping (the 39 being a prime example), but it certainly is not the case that every route in Dublin has problems such as you suggest. I can think of the 14/14A/48A which have too much running time, resulting in buses having 20 minute waits after each trip at the terminus, resulting in virtually every departure being on time!!!

However, Dublin Bus needs to vastly improve the length of time taken to address these issues. It takes far too long for new schedules to be drawn up - it is currently done on an ad hoc basis and really should switch to a quarterly system - all changes take place on specific dates four times a year.

There is also a definite need for:
1) A GPS controlled Passenger Information System at major stops
2) Stop specific timetables that delete buses not serving that stop
3) Improved maps showing where buses go from major stops - similar to the spider maps in London (examples are at the links below).
4) Improved integration of groups of bus routes to achieve clockface timetables, regular intervals between buses and intermediate timing points (example-Lucan QBC routes 25/A, 26, 66/A/B, 67/A all integrated so that no two buses depart at the same time and that they are all timed at intermediate stops inbound to provide an regular interval level of service).
5) More accurate intermediate times - recognising that there is always recovery time in a schedule (hence inbound/outbound times between the first two timing points at either end will differ on outbound/inbound journeys).

All of this was included in the recent study commissioned by Dublin Bus and are essential if the communication with customers is to improve.

Examples of the Spider Maps:
Minor location - Tufnell Park:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/buses/spiders/pdf/tufnellpark-10905.pdf

Major location - Trafalgar Square
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/buses/spiders/pdf/trafalgarsquare-2262.pdf

AlekSmart

Metrobest wrote:

Pre-pay only buses are being rolled out in Sydney and they are going down a treat.

The route 380 to Bondi Beach has some of the worst dwell times in the city with tourists asking the driver half a million questions every time the bus stops.

The new limited stops pre-pay only route 333 plies this route - the destination board at the front of the bus is unmistakenly clear - "PRE PAY ONLY" written in huge letters. The numbers 333 also makes it clear this is a special route.

It's marvellous, and regular commuters are loving the faster journey time. While the elongated bendy bus is never quite full, I've watched demand on this route go from a trickle into a stream.

And as they watch the pre-pay bus whizz by, passengers without prepaid tickets are spurred into action to stop paying cash on board.

NOW...At last some diesel is being sucked.
This is EXACTLY the type of action which Dublin Bus/Dept of Transport needs to impliment PDQ.

Dublin Bus still operates a fare/stage arrangement unchanged since the days of the Dalkey Tram and Nelsons Pillar.
Hence the preoccupation with the short-hop fare (Currrently one of the cheapest in the EC).
Back in those dark grey 1950`s days we had sod all folks commuting from Blanchardstown,Bray,Blessington or similar and the concept of living in NAVAN and working in Dublin was one of Alchemy and Wizardry.

Sadly the Australian ability to call a spade a spade,and in BIG LETTERS,is currently not on our menu.
Dublin Bus and it`s Shareholder are fixated with making everything as fuzzy and flexible as possible in some high liberal minded attempt to cater for ALL of the Community.
This,of course results in the company actually catering for very few at all.

Some senior official buried deep within Kildare St would take offence at the notion of BIG,CLEAR signage and the notion of a route number such as 666 might just prove a digit too far.

Next time you`re in town MetroB have a close look at the Expresso`services and note just how many Drivers make PERSONAL efforts to display their own signage outlining the Minimum Far/Limited Stop element of their journey.

Then perhaps an enquiring mind might also ask why the Company specify a state-of-the-art digital on-bus destination system and flatly refuse to display Information upon it..?

MetroB....If You get an opportunity pleae post a few Pics of the 333 so that I can have them blown-up,mounted upon a mobile advertising truck and driven up and down Kildare St every day until some dopey 2nd deputy assistant secretary (temporary) bothers to look out of their office window !! :eek:

shltter

I would not have had a bank Holiday on the saturday when 250,000 people are trying to get into town to view the parade and then have the full service out on Monday when everyone is enjoying the bank holiday.

SickCert

However, Dublin Bus needs to vastly improve the length of time taken to address these issues. It takes far too long for new schedules to be drawn up

A new schedule has been drawn up for the 46a/b/746 but has been withheld due to the Div Man moving to HQ and a junior manager moving to DBK to be Div Man again. So any changes will be held back months because of these two fools are changing shoes.

Heart

Hi SickCert,

Regarding the new bill, do you have an idea if its just a new timetable or will we be seeing more 746's? a Sunday service on the 46B? 46B extension to Belermine full time?

Thanks,
H

AlekSmart

Heart,a chroi......I cant answer the Sunday service ? but I can confirm that the 46B will be extended full time to serve Carrickmines (Presumably Belarmine,although the savage Speed Control Measures along the distributor road are becoming an issue).
Word of mouth suggests the 746 will be doubling in frequency to every 30 mins.

However,any further Airport Bus Service improvements may well be thwarted by the Dublin Airport Authority which has had a flash of lunacy and wishes to charge the various Bus operators for the use of it`s property. :rolleyes:

KC61

shltter wrote:

I would not have had a bank Holiday on the saturday when 250,000 people are trying to get into town to view the parade and then have the full service out on Monday when everyone is enjoying the bank holiday.

What a sensible post!!!!

I really think this whole area of public/bank holiday services needs to be looked at again. I would suggest the following:

St. Patrick's Day/October Bank Holiday
- Saturday service specially amended to take account of diversions

Good Friday
- Saturday service

Other Bank/Public Holidays
- Amended Sunday service with early morning services from 0630 on all QBCs at an increased frequency.

St Stephen's Day
- Sunday service

Remainder of Christmas Week
-Saturday service all week

Red Alert

I'm baffled as to how they felt the need to change the fonts on all the signage, when there were so many more serious matters to be attended to.

markpb

AlekSmart wrote:

However,any further Airport Bus Service improvements may well be thwarted by the Dublin Airport Authority which has had a flash of lunacy and wishes to charge the various Bus operators for the use of it`s property. :rolleyes:

Oh. My. God.

I'm beginnging to think this country is a success by accident. Adam Smith might have argued that countries operate best by doing the best for themselves but I don't think he meant different parts of the government should battle amongst themselves like we do

Why on earth would DAA think it would be a good idea to charge ops for bringing people to the airport? I can see them having some minor objections to Aircoach and Bus Eireaan using the airport as a transport hub for non-airport related operations but surely they can see the foley of charging DB.

Calina

actually I think it would be beneficial for public transport as a whole if BE and Aircoach did use Dublin Airport for some hub purposes.

But that requires some long term joined up thinking on the part of a body slightly above the Dublin Airport Authority in terms of national strategic planning, I guess.