If you were manager of Dublin Bus...

Chillwithcian

It seems ironic that in countries like Estonia and Slovakia (which are very poor) they can afford to have over 200 bus routes going at the same time with people not waiting more then 15 mins for a bus. In Ireland on the other hand... well lets just say I once waited 1hr40 for a 17!!!

There has to be a better way to run the inefficent bus network better then the moment put simply.... If I was the DB bus manager....

1.Buy more buses (obious but something the goverment dosnt seem bothered about at the moment) and get all over the longer bus routes like the 75 and 17 up to the same standard as that of the 46A, considering they are used more because they are longer distances and used by more people they need to be better serviced then the current timetable which just dosn't work. In this day and age you shouldnt have to wait more then 20 mins max for a bus

2.Scrap the routes that only have one or two buses operating on them per day, incorperate the areas missing out by these one or two services per day in a longer more regular service...(whats the point in having one bus in the morning and one at 5, thats NOT a proper service!)

3. Design new orbital routes to tie in with point 1. (EG have two branches of the 75, one to dundrum and one from there to tallaght) if more orbital routes were used the satellite areas of dublin would be better serviced and longer routes would be more eiffecent in frequency

4.Re-route the routes so they dont go through unnessesary traffic lights/road jams.:)

Wishbone Ash

Chillwithcian wrote:

countries like Estonia and Slovakia (which are very poor)

If you describe Estonia and Slovakia as "very poor", how would you describe Angola or Chad?

they can afford to have over 200 bus routes going at the same time

One can't make comparisons without knowing how much Government subsidies there are in those countries.

1.Buy more buses

Not a decision that a DM manager can make. It's up to the Government.

2.Scrap the routes that only have one or two buses operating on them per day,

Don't those passengers matter?

whats the point in having one bus in the morning and one at 5, thats NOT a proper service!)

Many parts of Ireland have no bus service!

3. Design new orbital routes

Again, not within the remit of a DB manager.

4.Re-route the routes so they dont go through unnessesary traffic lights/road jams.:)

And again, DB can only operate the routes that they have a licence for.

I don't think you would make a very good DB manager.

KC61

Chillwithcian wrote:

1.Buy more buses (obious but something the goverment dosnt seem bothered about at the moment) and get all over the longer bus routes like the 75 and 17 up to the same standard as that of the 46A, considering they are used more because they are longer distances and used by more people they need to be better serviced then the current timetable which just dosn't work. In this day and age you shouldnt have to wait more then 20 mins max for a bus

The 17 and 75 carry nowhere near the same numbers of passengers as the 46A. There are times that the services needs to be improved, such as the early morning westbound on the 75 (BIG time!!), but I would think that the off-peak service on these routes is about right for the demand that is there. At the moment these routes operate roughly every 30 minutes during the day and every 50-60 minutes at night. There is not the demand for a higher frequency than that.

Chillwithcian wrote:

2.Scrap the routes that only have one or two buses operating on them per day, incorperate the areas missing out by these one or two services per day in a longer more regular service...(whats the point in having one bus in the morning and one at 5, thats NOT a proper service!)

Most of these routes are peak-hour only and are there to provide a specific service. They are mainly operated by drivers on a 12-hour spreadover duty, which means they must finish within 12 hours of starting in the morning, with an extended break in between.

Chillwithcian wrote:

3. Design new orbital routes to tie in with point 1. (EG have two branches of the 75, one to dundrum and one from there to tallaght) if more orbital routes were used the satellite areas of dublin would be better serviced and longer routes would be more eiffecent in frequency

I would be in favour of perhaps adding extra peak services in this way, but not affecting existing buses. As an example, what about all the people who travel from Firhouse/Rathfarnham/Ballinteer to Sandyford and Stillorgan on the 75? Are you advocating that they have to take 2 buses whereas now they take 1? There is potential for variants on the existing routes, with perhaps a 75A running from Dundrum via the Green Route to Tallaght, but I think that existing routes should be maintained.

Chillwithcian wrote:

4.Re-route the routes so they dont go through unnessesary traffic lights/road jams.:)

Most of these routes go where there is peak demand, and with the exception of adding peak time extras I cannot see re-routing them being viable.

markpb

That's not up to your usual helpful standard Wishbone, it's almost trolling :P He did say that it was the government's fault DB didn't have more buses and it's clearly a 'what if' thread so the nitty gritty details aren't all that important.

Every one of Chillwithcian's points are correct and it's sad to know that all of those problems come from the government and DoT Sad state of affairs when a city bus agency has no control over its buses or its routes.

KC61 wrote:

The 17 and 75 carry nowhere near the same numbers of passengers as the 46A. There are times that the services needs to be improved, such as the early morning westbound on the 75 (BIG time!!), but I would think that the off-peak service on these routes is about right for the demand that is there. At the moment these routes operate roughly every 30 minutes during the day and every 50-60 minutes at night. There is not the demand for a higher frequency than that.

I've heard that argument before (no demand = no service) but with a lot of the orbital routes in Dublin, it's more true to say crappy service = no passengers. If a bus isn't reliable (first and foremost) no-one is going to use it. I'm very fortunate to live on the 17A which is possibly the only reliable orbital route in the city and even it's poor enough outside of rush hour. My experiences with the 220 weren't fun and I've never met a happy 17 or 18 customer yet.

There's a huge demand for orbital and local services. Both of the last two DB reports said so but between a lack of action by QBN and DB's apparent disinterest in operating anything that isn't an inbound/outbound rush hour service, people are forced to drive.

loyatemu

2 measures that would speed up all routes.

1. reduce the number of bus-stops - some of them are ridiculously close together.

2. simplify the fare structure and put basic ticket-machines at all stops (ie you put in a euro, you get a single fare ticket out) along with more detailed timetable and routing information

even on the QBCs buses get seriously slowed down by passengers getting on, fumbling for change, asking "do you go past X" etc.

markpb

loyatemu wrote:

even on the QBCs buses get seriously slowed down by passengers getting on, fumbling for change, asking "do you go past X" etc.

This is one of my biggest gripes with DB and it's entirely their own fault. How the hell do I find a bus that serves a particular road in Dublin?

The little booklets they sell (yes sell!) aren't much use since you have to already have one for the area you're going to, it won't tell you connections and afaik you can only buy them from DB HQ.

The website is completely useless, it's not searchable, doesn't have route maps and doesn't list the street names each bus serves. (I know this is being worked on but it shouldn't have taken so long.)

Unlike most American cities there's no freephone number I can ring to ask them. I could probably ring the DB HQ, if it was during their extremely limited opening hours and I found someone who happened to know the route already since they have no better tools than I do.

Calina

loyatemu wrote:

2 measures that would speed up all routes.

1. reduce the number of bus-stops - some of them are ridiculously close together.

2. simplify the fare structure and put basic ticket-machines at all stops (ie you put in a euro, you get a single fare ticket out) along with more detailed timetable and routing information

even on the QBCs buses get seriously slowed down by passengers getting on, fumbling for change, asking "do you go past X" etc.

I absolutely agree with this.

KC61

markpb wrote:

This is one of my biggest gripes with DB and it's entirely their own fault. How the hell do I find a bus that serves a particular road in Dublin?

The little booklets they sell (yes sell!) aren't much use since you have to already have one for the area you're going to, it won't tell you connections and afaik you can only buy them from DB HQ.

The website is completely useless, it's not searchable, doesn't have route maps and doesn't list the street names each bus serves. (I know this is being worked on but it shouldn't have taken so long.)

Unlike most American cities there's no freephone number I can ring to ask them. I could probably ring the DB HQ, if it was during their extremely limited opening hours and I found someone who happened to know the route already since they have no better tools than I do.

A complete overhaul of the Dublin Bus passenger information is required. There are local service guides with local maps available free at Head Office (they sell them elsewhere) and periodically there is a full network map issued but this is currently out of print. The trouble with this is that Dublin Bus change route timetables on a route-by-route basis and not en masse. This can render the local guides out of date within weeks of being issued.

In my own opinion they need to provide "spider" maps similar to those in London at all bus shelters in place of the accessible services map. These show where every bus goes from that area (not just that stop) and have a good A-Z index.

As for the timetable format - this is a major problem that DB face. There is a need for at a minimum city centre departure times on cross-city routes. As it is the 16/16A swap last buses around between Monday/Friday and Saturday and Sunday southbound. I have no idea when the 2nd last bus leaves O'Connell Street even though it is officially timed from there!! Full working timetables for all routes need to be developed which would show reasonably accurate timings at intermediate points en route. Even where this is done at them moment there are some glaring errors - I am thinking of the 75 where it is impossible for the 0650 service ex-Dun Laoghaire to get from Stillorgan to Dundrum via Sandyford Industrial Estate in 10 minutes and then from Dundrum to Nutgrove in 5 minutes!!!! Similarly, services from Tallaght in the evening on the 75 between 1600 and 2020 are given anything from 5 to 20 minutes to get to Knocklyon Road, with the shortest times in peak hour!!!! It takes a minimum of 15 minutes to do this trip at any time!

The effort at providing intermediate journey times on all route timetables while a welcome step forward needs several refinements:
1) Split between peak and off-peak (they usually are totally different).

2) Recognise that journey times in one direction are different to the other. Every public transport company (rail and road) will include "recovery" time in the schedule to take account of delays en route and this will be towards the end of the route. While DB have done this in the times outbound, they use exactly the same journey times inbound!!! It only takes a 14/14A 5-10 minutes to get from Dundrum to Ballinteer and not 20 minutes as shown in the timetable.

The problem with most of this is that the whole passenger information system (if I can use that) lacks any proper customer focus.

Developing stop specific timetables is also a pre-requisite and this would then ignore buses on a particular route that do not serve that stop. All of these are small detailed measures that would vastly improve the information that passengers are provided with!

To get more accurate information I would always advocate ringing the garage - the controllers will always know where each route goes! The number is at the bottom of each route's timetable - hey a piece of relevant information!!! Incredible!

markf909

How the hell do I find a bus that serves a particular road in Dublin?

This really should be a solved problem by now, had to go to Templeville Rd last week and trying to figure if the 15 was a good alternative to the 54A took a good 45 minutes of research.

We need an online journey planner for public transport in this city.

gazzer

One thing I would like to see would be a circle route bus that would go from The Halfway House on the Navan Road to the city centre and back again.. that way the other buses that use that route 37,38,39A/B/C,70 would not have to stop on the Navan Road. Also when they are coming from town they would not be picking up passengers that where only going as far as say Stoneybatter or any of the stops before the Halfway House.

Last night I got the 38A home. I got on the bus on O'Connell St and it was standing room only. There was people at the next stop who wanted to go to Damastown but the bus was full. Yet by the time we got to the Maple Centre at the junction of Navan/Cabra Road about 20 people had gotten off the bus.

KC61

gazzer wrote:

One thing I would like to see would be a circle route bus that would go from The Halfway House on the Navan Road to the city centre and back again.. that way the other buses that use that route 37,38,39A/B/C,70 would not have to stop on the Navan Road. Also when they are coming from town they would not be picking up passengers that where only going as far as say Stoneybatter or any of the stops before the Halfway House.

Last night I got the 38A home. I got on the bus on O'Connell St and it was standing room only. There was people at the next stop who wanted to go to Damastown but the bus was full. Yet by the time we got to the Maple Centre at the junction of Navan/Cabra Road about 20 people had gotten off the bus.

There is already that bus - it's the 122, albeit to Ashington.

FlutterinBantam

I'd sack the fcukers who were constantly "sick"

mick.fr

We do not need buses in Dublin, we need a Metro.
We only need buses to go out of Dublin or get in from outside Dublin.

Calina

mick.fr, all cities need a bus system if only to complement a metro system. It is not an either or set up. Every city with a metro system complements it with buses, and often, also with trams.

Slice

Going back to the opening post; I'd say that DB should change all routes so they travel through the city centre as oppose to terminating in the city centre. This would reduce both traffic and pedestrian congestion in the city centre while saving a lot of people a lot of time. Also a live-timetable should also be in place especially on routes where services are not as frequent.

Pre-boarding ticket machines should also be in place at stops and or smart-ticketing.

Where lots of busses congregate because of convergence of routes or convergence of termini there should be dedicated bus stations constructed instead of these busses being made to all sit around in public spaces a la the north Quays which causes a visual barrier.

All these strategies are already implemented in London - some of them are around a long time.

dowlingm

It should be DB's job to provide a map of their routes to DTA and DTA's to produce the map including DB, BE sub, Aircoach, DART/Suburban, LUAS.

A map of DB's routes alone is insufficient - although better than nowt, as owt usually is.

Chillwithcian

RE: Wishbone's comment: Its only suggestions (obiously Angola would be poorer), no need to take them so seriously:cool:

Getting back to the point: WHY havn't live timetable been introduced at major stops that could be automaticaly updated to tell commuters exactly when the next bus is coming, it makes sense and it cant be that expensive....

shltter

FlutterinBantam wrote:

I'd sack the fcukers who were constantly "sick"

Yes sacking people with serious illness would definitely improve the traffic situation in this city. Once that was achieved traffic congestion and various other problems would sort themselves out.

Wishbone Ash

markpb wrote:

That's not up to your usual helpful standard Wishbone, it's almost trolling

Chillwithcian wrote:

RE: Wishbone's comment: Its only suggestions (obiously Angola would be poorer), no need to take them so seriously

Apologies Chillwithcian - on mature reflection I realise that I could have been much more constructive and less petty. No offense intended.

Flukey

Lots of good ideas here, many of which keep on coming up on this forum over and over again. They are common sense, which makes you wonder at times why Dublin Bus doesn't act on some of them.

Instead of thinking of what we'd do if we managed Dublin Bus, we should mount a coup!

KC61

Chillwithcian wrote:

Getting back to the point: WHY havn't live timetable been introduced at major stops that could be automaticaly updated to tell commuters exactly when the next bus is coming, it makes sense and it cant be that expensive....

I'd refer you to the 15X thread elsewhere (link below) and the specific post that I made in respect of this, which I've copied below:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055058303

Due to a lack of government investment, the only way that Dublin Bus controllers can tell where a bus is at any particular point in time is by calling the driver over the radio. They have no visual display of where any of their fleet of buses are. A new GPS tracking system is now (at last) being developed, to be completed within 30 months (mid-2009), which will then lead onto Real Time Passenger Information at bus stops to be rolled out across the network by early 2011. The combination of both of these will result in far greater control of buses with a controller becoming aware of any problems far more quickly than heretofore and being able to take action to correct it.

Alek correctly points out that the old AVM system was withdrawn leaving everyone really at a loss to know where any buses are!!

Basically it is the politicians' fault for withholding the funding for this - Dublin Bus would love to have it now!

Victor

... I'd suggest to drivers not to stop for the pedestrian lights at the corner of Molesworth Street and Kildare Street, especially if they've spotted a ministerial party leaving Transport House.

John R

Chillwithcian wrote:

RE: Wishbone's comment: Its only suggestions (obiously Angola would be poorer), no need to take them so seriously:cool:

The ex-Communist countries you mentioned might be poor now in comparison to Ireland but for the last 60 years they had totalitarian regimes that controlled all the wealth. One of the few advantages of that was the amount of investement in infrastructure and public services.

Until 10/15 years ago Ireland was a dirt-poor hole run by greedy corrupt scum that pocketed what little wealt their was while the general population had to resort to emigration to earn a living.

Yes, many of our public services are bad in comparison to other countries but the blame and the responsibility to change that lies with central government.

Chillwithcian wrote:

Getting back to the point: WHY havn't live timetable been introduced at major stops that could be automaticaly updated to tell commuters exactly when the next bus is coming, it makes sense and it cant be that expensive....

Several hundred/thousand digital displays for bus stops, monitoring equipment for 1200 buses, central control to calculate and relay the data, staff on-call to repair the equipment when the city's large scum population take to stoning/shooting/setting-on-fire the displays on a nightly basis. Oh I think it is going to be plenty expensive.

Of course it should be done, DB started a pilot scheme on the 78A and 25/66/67 corridors over 5 years ago but the funding to roll it out across the network was denied by the FF/PD government while they bickered over public/private ideologies.


This thread should be renamed "If you were Minister for Transport..." because 90% of the suggestions in it are not under control of the bus company at all.

bk

KC61 wrote:

Alek correctly points out that the old AVM system was withdrawn leaving everyone really at a loss to know where any buses are!!

Ironically the government withholding funding will likely lead to a much better and more accurate system, as a GPS system will work much better then an AVM based system.

London bus is currently planning to change over from AVM to a GPS system.

John R wrote:

Several hundred/thousand digital displays for bus stops, monitoring equipment for 1200 buses, central control to calculate and relay the data, staff on-call to repair the equipment when the city's large scum population take to stoning/shooting/setting-on-fire the displays on a nightly basis. Oh I think it is going to be plenty expensive.

I'd assume displays will only be in the city centre and on busy QBC stops.

I assume all other bus stops will have a unique ID on them that you can enter in a web browser (on PC or phone) or a text message and get the estimated arrival time of the next bus.

By 2011 most people will have a mobile phone that has web access (iPhone, etc.), so there really isn't a need to have displays at every stop.

I also assume that such a system will be used to build up more accurate stop timetables.

GUIGuy

Don't underestimate how much money the public sector could throw away on a live GPS style tracking system. Just look at how much they've spent on integrated ticking with few results.

Another simple suggestion to improve efficiency is to have bus stops that are close to traffic lights just at them. How many times does a bus stop for 2-3 minutes, pull out for a few meters and then have to stop at the lights as well. Considering that the average double decker has circa 80 passengers it would be far more efficient to let them control the lights electronically. In rush hour I doubt 80 cars get through an interval. Traffic management should be about moving people most efficiently... making buses more efficient does this.

Also I'd talk to the bus drivers who refuse to drive in bus lanes. So many times in the west of the city they just crawl along in traffic when there is a bus lane (not hard shoulder). Although they might have a good reason. The bus lanes are interupted so often that the drivers have to go back and forth between main lane & bus lane... car drivers generally don't want to give an inch to anyone.

I heard rumours that O2 proposed tracking dublin buses for free using GSM. This was a 3-4 years ago. The signal is good enough to get a pretty good triangulation on buses... don't know why that never got off the ground. Maybe DB want to be in control of the system... or maybe the unions didn't like the idea of tracking.

vandermeyde

GUIGuy wrote:

Don't underestimate how much money the public sector could throw away on a live GPS style tracking system. Just look at how much they've spent on integrated ticking with few results.

In fairness, the problems with Integrated ticketing have more to do with turf wars than anything particularly technical....

Fitting a GPS to most buses is pretty straight forward and if you check the tender document they are looking for an out of the box solution from vendors with proven expertise in the area...

it should be pretty straight-forward although it'll be a year or two after implementation before customers see the benefit from a passenger information point of view...In the short term, it's benefits will be for internal tracking/control purposes...

KC61

bk wrote:

Ironically the government withholding funding will likely lead to a much better and more accurate system, as a GPS system will work much better then an AVM based system.

London bus is currently planning to change over from AVM to a GPS system.

I do not for one minute dispute any of that. But to have NO system is just incredible in my opinion. Over the last 10 year period there has been little or no proper regulation of buses by controllers, and a controller has no idea where a bus actually is at any point in time aside from calling the driver via the radio!!!! How can you run an urban bus system effectively in that scenario? It is no way to run such a system and to a great degree removes any ability of a controller to make rapid INFORMED decisions.

Metrobest

ATTITUDE

I would stop playing the victim card and build a good relationship with the government. I would stop whingeing for more subsidies and realise that I am operating in an almost unique city environment where there is a smorgasbord of high volume routes that would be serviced by tram or metro in other cities. The profits I generate from these high volume routes will allow me to operate PSO routes at minimal or zero subsidy.

TIMETABLES

Radically redraw routes and timetables to reflect changes in demand patterns, introduce new night buses on key corridors and clockface timetables on all QBCs so passengers never have to check timetables.

COMPETITION

Agree to end the Dublin Bus monopoly on bus transport in the city, happily allowing competitition into the market. Use the competion as a motiviation for my company to raise its game.

TICKETING

Agree with my CIE sisters Irish Rail and DART a single ticket fare structure, simplifying arrangements for passengers.

Draft a simple new zonal fare structure for bus journeys.

Migration to smart cards and pre-pay over cash fare achieved by heavy discounting of these tickets.

"Pre-pay only" on QBCs at peak time with ticket machines in the city centre termini and at key stops along the QBC corridors.

OPERATIONS

Concentrate operations on high-demand routes and maintain high all-day frequencies on these routes.

No more drivers taking breaks in the city centre; breaks to be taken at the depot or outer termini.

No more buses parked up in the city centre on layovers; as soon as buses complete the inbound leg they must immediately allow passengers for the outbound leg to board the bus, like the Luas does.

Radical change to city centre bus termini - with a focus on Stephen's Green, Merrion Square and Parnell Square.

A diversion of routes away from the O'Connell Bridge bottleneck.

CUSTOMER SERVICE

Linking of subsidy level to results of an independent customer satisfaction survey.

Regular "mystery shopping" checks to monitor driver behaviour/professionalism.

Transport infoline where customers can plan a trip, find out about a delay, make a complaint or report a dirty bus.

I COULD GO ON.

AlekSmart

Quote [bk]

"I assume all other bus stops will have a unique ID on them that you can enter in a web browser (on PC or phone) or a text message and get the estimated arrival time of the next bus."

This particular aspect has already been completed.
If you check at the top of each Bus Stop,just beneath the headplate you will find a small metal plate with a serial number thereon.
This allows each stop to be referenced for route signage,type of display or any other info necessary.
It also of course facilitates the Pocket PC or mobile phone user in their quest for info.

My point about the AVM however still stands.

The London system has performed well and has had the benefit of constant upgrading as well as being an integrated part of Londons GENERAL Traffic Control system via CentreComm and the Metropolitan Police Control Centre.

The London Administrative authorities had the sense to accept that a fleet of nearly 8,000 buses had a requirement for active management and assistance as a standard operating procedure.

Dublin City`s Authorities only nod in that direction was to disconnect the Bus Garages live feed from it`s Traffic Control Cameras when Dublin Bus wouldnt pay a newly introduced fee some genius came up with.

Until somebody actually recognises that having a City Authority and its Primary Public Transport provider singing from a selection of different hymn sheets is essentially suicide in Public Transport terms then we shall remain in the stagnated state we appear to enjoy. :cool:

dowlingm

there used to be a call for next bus system in Toronto called timeline but it wouldn't support Y2K and there wasn't the divs to replace it.
http://spacing.ca/wire/?p=1475

Victor

GUIGuy wrote:

or maybe the unions didn't like the idea of tracking.

The unions haven't expressed a problem with tracking. In fact tracking has a substantial safety upside.

Metrobest how much of you post is actuall in hte control of DB?

Metrobest wrote:

ATTITUDE

I would stop playing the victim card and build a good relationship with the government. I would stop whingeing for more subsidies and realise that I am operating in an almost unique city environment where there is a smorgasbord of high volume routes that would be serviced by tram or metro in other cities. The profits I generate from these high volume routes will allow me to operate PSO routes at minimal or zero subsidy.

TIMETABLES

Radically redraw routes and timetables to reflect changes in demand patterns, introduce new night buses on key corridors and clockface timetables on all QBCs so passengers never have to check timetables.

COMPETITION

Agree to end the Dublin Bus monopoly on bus transport in the city, happily allowing competitition into the market. Use the competion as a motiviation for my company to raise its game.

TICKETING

Agree with my CIE sisters Irish Rail and DART a single ticket fare structure, simplifying arrangements for passengers.

Draft a simple new zonal fare structure for bus journeys.

Migration to smart cards and pre-pay over cash fare achieved by heavy discounting of these tickets.

"Pre-pay only" on QBCs at peak time with ticket machines in the city centre termini and at key stops along the QBC corridors.

OPERATIONS

Concentrate operations on high-demand routes and maintain high all-day frequencies on these routes.

No more drivers taking breaks in the city centre; breaks to be taken at the depot or outer termini.

No more buses parked up in the city centre on layovers; as soon as buses complete the inbound leg they must immediately allow passengers for the outbound leg to board the bus, like the Luas does.

Radical change to city centre bus termini - with a focus on Stephen's Green, Merrion Square and Parnell Square.

A diversion of routes away from the O'Connell Bridge bottleneck.

CUSTOMER SERVICE

Linking of subsidy level to results of an independent customer satisfaction survey.

Regular "mystery shopping" checks to monitor driver behaviour/professionalism.

Transport infoline where customers can plan a trip, find out about a delay, make a complaint or report a dirty bus.

Metrobest

It's wrong of you to put a line through my points, which are ALL valid.

I was careful to only include things that are controlled by DB management, directly or indirectly.

For example, Dublin Bus has taken upon itself to introduce its own cheapo smartcards which won't be compatible with RPA or IE. You can be damn sure the DoT didn't want that to happen.

As for competion, it's Dublin Bus that is blocking that.

Useless at so many things, plagued by inertia, Dublin Bus management gets very feisty when its own interests are threatened.

Enough of the pro Dublin Bus propaganda on this forum, it's really starting to annoy me.

The dogs on the street know Dublin Bus is not meeting the city's expectations or needs.

People have to stop being apologists for Dublin Bus's terrible management - why are these buffoons getting paid their fat salaries if they can't run a proper city bus service like every other city?

And if the Department of Tranport controls these issues, which is most certainly doesn't, then why don't we rename Dublin Bus "Bus Atha Cullen"? :cool:

Chillwithcian

Metrobest wrote:

It's wrong of you to put a line through my points, which are ALL valid.

As for competion, it's Dublin Bus that is blocking that.

Enough of the pro Dublin Bus propaganda on this forum, it's really starting to annoy me.

People have to stop being apologists for Dublin Bus's terrible management - why are these buffoons getting paid their fat salaries if they can't run a proper city bus service like every other city?
:cool:

You make a good point!

AlekSmart

Quote [Metrobest]:

Enough of the pro Dublin Bus propaganda on this forum, it's really starting to annoy me. [End]

Ah here now Metrobest a chara,...let`s keep a perspective on this.
After all this IS a forum where interested individuals can Post,Discuss and DISAGREE with various points of view.

To suggest that there is a Dublin Bus "Propaganda" element at work on Boards.ie is.....well.....Kinda meglomaniac...?

Victors magic pencil obviously raised your hackles somewhat but it`s use was valid nonetheless.

Bus Atha Cliath is a creature of the State and is at all times under the direct remit of the Dept of Transport.

Today,to a far greater extent than ever before,the Dept of Transport keeps a VERY close rein on the operations of Bus Atha Cliath.
Often this rein is in DIRECT conflict with passenger requirements as your hitlist of BAC management "shortcomings" tends to show.
Timetable.
Ticketing
Competition
Operations
Four areas where BAC are totally at the mercy of Departmental whimsy to an extent which many fail to appreciate.

Any variation to a pre-existing timetable must be submitted to the Department for its approval as it appears now to be regarded as a material alteration to a route licence.

The Department of Transport has already been thoroughly indicted by the Comptroller and Auditor General on at least 2 occasions now in relation to the so called "Smart Card" tendering fiasco.

The "Cheapo Smart Card" you speak of will be far superior to the present Mag Stripe system which is on it`s last legs.
This "Cheapo" system will also be infinitely preferable to the current alternatives on offer,which amount to....?.....Well...Nothing !
The current situation whereby some €16 Million has been spent with NOTHING to show for it has absolutely NOTHING to do with Bus Atha Cliath management.
Perhaps MetroB could seek clarification as to why the Dept of Transport failed to fund the "Electronic Purse" cards after the initial EU funded trials some 10 years ago or is that a BAC management Failing also ?

I fail to see any apologists for BAC management here on this board,I do see those who have an understanding of the reality being at 6`s & 7`s with those who have expectations of vast improvements made overnight.

Sorry MetroB but your anti-BAC rhetoric although based on genuine observations is also evidence of "Propaganda" at work and serves to do little only allow the real Power Brokers to slip away into the dark night.

Anyway I hope your annoyance level has`nt become too extreme for now !!!!

Capt'n Midnight

Metrobest wrote:

ATTITUDE

I would stop playing the victim card and build a good relationship with the government. I would stop whingeing for more subsidies and realise that I am operating in an almost unique city environment where there is a smorgasbord of high volume routes that would be serviced by tram or metro in other cities. The profits I generate from these high volume routes will allow me to operate PSO routes at minimal or zero subsidy.

IIRC Dublin bus claim that the subsidy the government give them is about the same amount as the revenue they loose due to congestion.

So since the Goverment hasn't given them the buses to sort out the traffic or otherwise reduce it, it's not really a subsidy. Most of the rest of the problems are Gov't related, if by omission.

Subsidy levels are very low compared to other countries, city buses on the continent are very cheap compared to here. I would not like us to be like the UK where operators sell on buses to the next guy down the chain and where you have instances where 10% of buses in one northern-midlands city where deemed so unsafe that the bus wasn't allowed to procced further. The private buses down the country have been great, and the few private ones that run to the airport seem fine, but I fear a race to the bottom with private operators, or judged by the governments handling of other private ventures a screw up on the original proposal so that they have to close the stable door or do damage limitation after another Eircom, M50 toll bridge, BUPA etc,

Later buses would be an idea - but the problem there is the passengers in many areas.

Better policing of buses, increase fines so that policing isn't so costly or otherwise allocate the cost to keep the beancounters happy - less vandalism . Or try the approach they used in New York, they arrested any ticket evaders on the subway and processed (fingerprint ?) them while they had them, picked up a lot of people for other more serious stuff.

Better ticket options - Travel 90 isn't great, maybe travel 120 so you can complete a two bus journey during rush hour or in the evenings

Bus routes - ( assuming there are more buses provided ) less routes that go to O'Connell street , so people don't have to change and less congestion in the city centre - more suburban routes.

Change planning permission laws so that when a bus shelter is in front of a wall it doesn't need to be made of glass.

Get SDCC to sort out their bus lanes 80% of the commuters in Lucan/Clondalkin work out side the area, so while the bus routes to town are good, people going elsewhere, even only a few miles away, rely a lot on cars because to get a bus connection takes ages during rush hour
FFS - don't paint BUS LANE on roads if there aren't any buses !
Nangor road, newlands road, outer ring road = 3 QBC's = one LUAS
One Luas = several hundred million to build.
instead it's solid traffic at rush hour ( ok cars only use the bus lanes on part of the outer ring road but still..)
The whole Idea of a QBC is that you don't get stuck in traffic, it's a key to getting people out of their cars.


Provide Schoolbuses (funding would have to come from govt. )
http://roads.southdublin.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=228&Itemid=272

The increased use of the car on the school runs contributes to peak hour traffic congestion, local pollution, the lack of fitness in children, and road safety hazards near school entrances. It is estimated that 20% of all car journeys during the morning peak hour are related to the school run.

Don't forget that 20% of journeys probably translates into more than 20% traffic since a good few parents will have to double back or divert. By comparison adding an extra lane to the M50 could provide up to 33% more capacity if there was no bottle neck on the link roads. Building the port tunnel has reduced traffic by 20% ?? Buying the M50 Bridge will speed up traffic by ??
Banning unlicensed drivers and providing schoolbuses could free up more space on our roads than than the big construction projects and at a tiny faction of the cost.

markpb

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Better policing of buses, increase fines so that policing isn't so costly or otherwise allocate the cost to keep the beancounters happy - less vandalism . Or try the approach they used in New York, they arrested any ticket evaders on the subway and processed (fingerprint ?) them while they had them, picked up a lot of people for other more serious stuff.

Definitely. Could not agree more. One of the problems with travelling DB is the unsavoury characters who populate upstairs on several routes.

Better ticket options - Travel 90 isn't great, maybe travel 120 so you can complete a two bus journey during rush hour or in the evenings

You know the 90 minute ticket means you must start your last journey no later than 90 minutes after your first one? You can remain on the bus(es) more than 90 minutes perfectly legally.

Red Alert

The 'cheapo' smart card system will be environmentally unfriendly as the cards (which DB has insisted are disposable / not rechargeable) will not be as easily recyclable. The Mag Stripe system is only on its last legs because they didn't do the TGX interface to it properly and it's not very robust (although since the latest update it doesn't seem to be that bad at all). In fact I think the RPA's smartcard (which conforms to the ITSO standard) should be rolled out on the buses - by government mandate if DB refuse. The Wayfarer TGX has support for it and the readers are on the buses, so DB can't claim a technological problem.

The AVM system seeminly was a wonder in its time, but GPS and other technologies have appeared. Nevertheless it should have been kept going until a replacement system was there to replace it.

markpb

Red Alert wrote:

The 'cheapo' smart card system will be environmentally unfriendly as the cards (which DB has insisted are disposable / not rechargeable) will not be as easily recyclable.

I never understood why they wanted a disposable smartcard, especially considering the cost (relative to magstripe). It would be relatively simple to change weekly, monthly and annual cards to smartcard and let owners reload them with a single type of ticket. Even changing these people to smartcard should have a huge effect on dwell times.

In fact I think the RPA's smartcard (which conforms to the ITSO standard) should be rolled out on the buses - by government mandate if DB refuse. The Wayfarer TGX has support for it and the readers are on the buses, so DB can't claim a technological problem.

The RPA smartcard? The one that doesn't exist?

AlekSmart

One of the least savoury aspects of the present impasse is that each operator has,in the absence of ANY clear guidance or direction from above,embarked upon their own version of ticketing.

For example I have only recently learned that Mortons Circle Line services did not issue ordinary tickets at all !
However,it now appears that following complaints from a small number of customers and a swift reaction from an ever-vigilant Dept of Transport,Circle Line passengers MUST now be in possession of a Ticket valid for the journey they are making.

ANY ticketing system intended for use on a major urban system MUST be easily understandable and flexible in its use.
What we have at the moment is a total mess,developed in a Vacuum left by Political infighting over Dogma.

However as the recent London developments show it`s not only ourselves that fight over this stuff.
The roll out of Oyster card on the London National Rail network only became possible after considerable (and expensive) horse-trading between Mayor Livingston and the Rail Operators.
It also appears that the format of Smart Card was/is(?) also an issue there which remains clouded to some extent.

Red Alert

The LUAS smart card (what i meant by RPA one- sorry) is here already and technically can be read by the equipment on-board buses.

Seen as martin cullen/dept of transport is running both the high-level LUAS operation and dublin bus, why has nobody sat the two of them down and decreed a solution which they both must implement.

Victor

markpb wrote:

The RPA smartcard? The one that doesn't exist?

It works on Luas and Mortons.

markpb

Red Alert wrote:

The LUAS smart card (what i meant by RPA one- sorry) is here already and technically can be read by the equipment on-board buses.

Ah, sorry :-) I'm curious, is the card a proper ITSO card or is it just a stored-cash card? It would be fairly difficult to make a stored-cash card work on Dublin Bus without requiring the driver to be involved or switching to a tap-on, tap-off mode which would aggravate the awful dwell times we already have.

AlekSmart

AFAIK The Mortons/RPA Card is a stored value card.
The ONLY way forward here is for the Government to IMMEDIATELY sanction a single Flat Bus Fare for BAC services.

The current Fare/Stage setup predates Bianconi and is no longer relevant to the travelling needs of the GREATER number of Bus Users.

The setting of a Flat Fare does NOT impede the use of a lesser special short Central Zone fare which could easily be accomodated by the current TGX machine with only minimal driver input required.

It ALL about Revenue allocation which REMAINS the reserved function of the Dept of Transport.....over to you Martin ..!!!

bk

While less flexible, even a stored value card system could work on DB.

Have the person tag on as they get on the bus and tag off again as they get off. If they don't tag off,then they are charged the full fear. The location of the bus would be calculated by the buses GPS system.

Of course the disadvantage of this is that it would reduce disembark times. However this problem could be reduced by allowing people tag off, before the bus stops (charge them up as far as the next stop) and also put tag off/on machines in the city centre and other busy locations (along QBC's etc.).

Obviously a single fare would be preferable. Something like London, say €3 for all cash fares and €1 for all smart card fares. It would have the advantage of attracting people to using the smartcard.

Having said all that, there is absolutely no excuse for the weekly, monthly, yearly and multi trip not to be on smart cards and there is no excuse for this not being shared with Dart, commuter rail and luas.

markpb

bk wrote:

Have the person tag on as they get on the bus and tag off again as they get off. If they don't tag off,then they are charged the full fear. The location of the bus would be calculated by the buses GPS system. Of course the disadvantage of this is that it would reduce disembark times.

It's hardly an optimal solution Dwell times are pretty brutal as it stands without making things worse. And you _know_ there'll be plenty of bats who put their ticket at the bottom of their bag and won't be able to find it.

However this problem could be reduced by allowing people tag off, before the bus stops (charge them up as far as the next stop) and also put tag off/on machines in the city centre and other busy locations (along QBC's etc.).

Without more inspectors I can't see them going for this because people would tag off as soon as they get on.

Obviously a single fare would be preferable. Something like London, say €3 for all cash fares and €1 for all smart card fares. It would have the advantage of attracting people to using the smartcard.

Having said all that, there is absolutely no excuse for the weekly, monthly, yearly and multi trip not to be on smart cards and there is no excuse for this not being shared with Dart, commuter rail and luas.

Zing and Zing. In the real world, both of these would be done as part of the rollout of a smartcard ticket. In Dublin....

bk

markpb wrote:

It's hardly an optimal solution Dwell times are pretty brutal as it stands without making things worse. And you _know_ there'll be plenty of bats who put their ticket at the bottom of their bag and won't be able to find it.

Typically people make two types of trips, into town and out of town.

Travelling into town there would be no increase in dwell times, it might actually decrease.

Tag on getting onto the bus, same or likely quicker then the current card system.

When you arrive in the city centre, get straight off the bus and tag off on street side tag off machines.

Travelling out of town there would be some increase.

Tag on getting onto the bus, same or likely quicker then the current card system.

Tag off on the bus when getting off the bus. This would increase dwell times, but wouldn't be that bad as typically only a few people get off at each stop and they could tag off as they wait for the bus to stop.

It would be doable, but it is obviously less then optimal and would probably confuse a lot of people and not really work well.

markpb wrote:

Without more inspectors I can't see them going for this because people would tag off as soon as they get on.

The tag off would be across from the driver and make a loud buzz, so he could watch out for fare evaders.

markpb wrote:

Zing and Zing. In the real world, both of these would be done as part of the rollout of a smartcard ticket. In Dublin....

Of course this would be the best solution.

Capt'n Midnight

On some Italian buses the validating machines are not right at the door, so everyone gets on, the bus pulls away, and then you validate the ticket before the bus gets to the next stop. It's a ticket only system so driver doesn't have to have cash etc.


Maybe have express buses that DON'T take cash. Ticket only. But you would need to spend a lot on an ad campaign so even thick people would know not to waste time trying to get on them.

mickoneill30

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Maybe have express buses that DON'T take cash. Ticket only. But you would need to spend a lot on an ad campaign so even thick people would know not to waste time trying to get on them.

Wouldn't work. I get an express buss home every day and even when the driver shouts that he's only going to stop at certain stops we still get one or two thickos every night insisting the bus stops where they want it.

markpb

mickoneill30 wrote:

Wouldn't work. I get an express buss home every day and even when the driver shouts that he's only going to stop at certain stops we still get one or two thickos every night insisting the bus stops where they want it.

That happens when I get the express buses too but the drivers flatly refuse to stop which is fair enough. On the other hand, expresso bus stops should have route maps showing the stops so people don't have to ask the driver before they get on or get a surprise when they can't get off. It's mostly down to the DB's usual rubbish level of communication with its customers.

And yes, they should definitely be ticket only.

Metrobest

mickoneill30 wrote:

Wouldn't work. I get an express buss home every day and even when the driver shouts that he's only going to stop at certain stops we still get one or two thickos every night insisting the bus stops where they want it.

Pre-pay only buses are being rolled out in Sydney and they are going down a treat.

The route 380 to Bondi Beach has some of the worst dwell times in the city with tourists asking the driver half a million questions every time the bus stops.

The new limited stops pre-pay only route 333 plies this route - the destination board at the front of the bus is unmistakenly clear - "PRE PAY ONLY" written in huge letters. The numbers 333 also makes it clear this is a special route.

It's marvellous, and regular commuters are loving the faster journey time. While the elongated bendy bus is never quite full, I've watched demand on this route go from a trickle into a stream.

And as they watch the pre-pay bus whizz by, passengers without prepaid tickets are spurred into action to stop paying cash on board.

tamburlaine

No need for timetables at stops at all. It's risible. It's fooling the punter when the bus arrives an hour after it was timetalbled. The fookin gall.