If you were manager of Dublin Bus...

Chillwithcian

It seems ironic that in countries like Estonia and Slovakia (which are very poor) they can afford to have over 200 bus routes going at the same time with people not waiting more then 15 mins for a bus. In Ireland on the other hand... well lets just say I once waited 1hr40 for a 17!!!

There has to be a better way to run the inefficent bus network better then the moment put simply.... If I was the DB bus manager....

1.Buy more buses (obious but something the goverment dosnt seem bothered about at the moment) and get all over the longer bus routes like the 75 and 17 up to the same standard as that of the 46A, considering they are used more because they are longer distances and used by more people they need to be better serviced then the current timetable which just dosn't work. In this day and age you shouldnt have to wait more then 20 mins max for a bus

2.Scrap the routes that only have one or two buses operating on them per day, incorperate the areas missing out by these one or two services per day in a longer more regular service...(whats the point in having one bus in the morning and one at 5, thats NOT a proper service!)

3. Design new orbital routes to tie in with point 1. (EG have two branches of the 75, one to dundrum and one from there to tallaght) if more orbital routes were used the satellite areas of dublin would be better serviced and longer routes would be more eiffecent in frequency

4.Re-route the routes so they dont go through unnessesary traffic lights/road jams.:)

Wishbone Ash

Chillwithcian wrote:

countries like Estonia and Slovakia (which are very poor)

If you describe Estonia and Slovakia as "very poor", how would you describe Angola or Chad?

they can afford to have over 200 bus routes going at the same time

One can't make comparisons without knowing how much Government subsidies there are in those countries.

1.Buy more buses

Not a decision that a DM manager can make. It's up to the Government.

2.Scrap the routes that only have one or two buses operating on them per day,

Don't those passengers matter?

whats the point in having one bus in the morning and one at 5, thats NOT a proper service!)

Many parts of Ireland have no bus service!

3. Design new orbital routes

Again, not within the remit of a DB manager.

4.Re-route the routes so they dont go through unnessesary traffic lights/road jams.:)

And again, DB can only operate the routes that they have a licence for.

I don't think you would make a very good DB manager.

KC61

Chillwithcian wrote:

1.Buy more buses (obious but something the goverment dosnt seem bothered about at the moment) and get all over the longer bus routes like the 75 and 17 up to the same standard as that of the 46A, considering they are used more because they are longer distances and used by more people they need to be better serviced then the current timetable which just dosn't work. In this day and age you shouldnt have to wait more then 20 mins max for a bus

The 17 and 75 carry nowhere near the same numbers of passengers as the 46A. There are times that the services needs to be improved, such as the early morning westbound on the 75 (BIG time!!), but I would think that the off-peak service on these routes is about right for the demand that is there. At the moment these routes operate roughly every 30 minutes during the day and every 50-60 minutes at night. There is not the demand for a higher frequency than that.

Chillwithcian wrote:

2.Scrap the routes that only have one or two buses operating on them per day, incorperate the areas missing out by these one or two services per day in a longer more regular service...(whats the point in having one bus in the morning and one at 5, thats NOT a proper service!)

Most of these routes are peak-hour only and are there to provide a specific service. They are mainly operated by drivers on a 12-hour spreadover duty, which means they must finish within 12 hours of starting in the morning, with an extended break in between.

Chillwithcian wrote:

3. Design new orbital routes to tie in with point 1. (EG have two branches of the 75, one to dundrum and one from there to tallaght) if more orbital routes were used the satellite areas of dublin would be better serviced and longer routes would be more eiffecent in frequency

I would be in favour of perhaps adding extra peak services in this way, but not affecting existing buses. As an example, what about all the people who travel from Firhouse/Rathfarnham/Ballinteer to Sandyford and Stillorgan on the 75? Are you advocating that they have to take 2 buses whereas now they take 1? There is potential for variants on the existing routes, with perhaps a 75A running from Dundrum via the Green Route to Tallaght, but I think that existing routes should be maintained.

Chillwithcian wrote:

4.Re-route the routes so they dont go through unnessesary traffic lights/road jams.:)

Most of these routes go where there is peak demand, and with the exception of adding peak time extras I cannot see re-routing them being viable.

markpb

That's not up to your usual helpful standard Wishbone, it's almost trolling :P He did say that it was the government's fault DB didn't have more buses and it's clearly a 'what if' thread so the nitty gritty details aren't all that important.

Every one of Chillwithcian's points are correct and it's sad to know that all of those problems come from the government and DoT Sad state of affairs when a city bus agency has no control over its buses or its routes.

KC61 wrote:

The 17 and 75 carry nowhere near the same numbers of passengers as the 46A. There are times that the services needs to be improved, such as the early morning westbound on the 75 (BIG time!!), but I would think that the off-peak service on these routes is about right for the demand that is there. At the moment these routes operate roughly every 30 minutes during the day and every 50-60 minutes at night. There is not the demand for a higher frequency than that.

I've heard that argument before (no demand = no service) but with a lot of the orbital routes in Dublin, it's more true to say crappy service = no passengers. If a bus isn't reliable (first and foremost) no-one is going to use it. I'm very fortunate to live on the 17A which is possibly the only reliable orbital route in the city and even it's poor enough outside of rush hour. My experiences with the 220 weren't fun and I've never met a happy 17 or 18 customer yet.

There's a huge demand for orbital and local services. Both of the last two DB reports said so but between a lack of action by QBN and DB's apparent disinterest in operating anything that isn't an inbound/outbound rush hour service, people are forced to drive.

loyatemu

2 measures that would speed up all routes.

1. reduce the number of bus-stops - some of them are ridiculously close together.

2. simplify the fare structure and put basic ticket-machines at all stops (ie you put in a euro, you get a single fare ticket out) along with more detailed timetable and routing information

even on the QBCs buses get seriously slowed down by passengers getting on, fumbling for change, asking "do you go past X" etc.

markpb

loyatemu wrote:

even on the QBCs buses get seriously slowed down by passengers getting on, fumbling for change, asking "do you go past X" etc.

This is one of my biggest gripes with DB and it's entirely their own fault. How the hell do I find a bus that serves a particular road in Dublin?

The little booklets they sell (yes sell!) aren't much use since you have to already have one for the area you're going to, it won't tell you connections and afaik you can only buy them from DB HQ.

The website is completely useless, it's not searchable, doesn't have route maps and doesn't list the street names each bus serves. (I know this is being worked on but it shouldn't have taken so long.)

Unlike most American cities there's no freephone number I can ring to ask them. I could probably ring the DB HQ, if it was during their extremely limited opening hours and I found someone who happened to know the route already since they have no better tools than I do.

Calina

loyatemu wrote:

2 measures that would speed up all routes.

1. reduce the number of bus-stops - some of them are ridiculously close together.

2. simplify the fare structure and put basic ticket-machines at all stops (ie you put in a euro, you get a single fare ticket out) along with more detailed timetable and routing information

even on the QBCs buses get seriously slowed down by passengers getting on, fumbling for change, asking "do you go past X" etc.

I absolutely agree with this.

KC61

markpb wrote:

This is one of my biggest gripes with DB and it's entirely their own fault. How the hell do I find a bus that serves a particular road in Dublin?

The little booklets they sell (yes sell!) aren't much use since you have to already have one for the area you're going to, it won't tell you connections and afaik you can only buy them from DB HQ.

The website is completely useless, it's not searchable, doesn't have route maps and doesn't list the street names each bus serves. (I know this is being worked on but it shouldn't have taken so long.)

Unlike most American cities there's no freephone number I can ring to ask them. I could probably ring the DB HQ, if it was during their extremely limited opening hours and I found someone who happened to know the route already since they have no better tools than I do.

A complete overhaul of the Dublin Bus passenger information is required. There are local service guides with local maps available free at Head Office (they sell them elsewhere) and periodically there is a full network map issued but this is currently out of print. The trouble with this is that Dublin Bus change route timetables on a route-by-route basis and not en masse. This can render the local guides out of date within weeks of being issued.

In my own opinion they need to provide "spider" maps similar to those in London at all bus shelters in place of the accessible services map. These show where every bus goes from that area (not just that stop) and have a good A-Z index.

As for the timetable format - this is a major problem that DB face. There is a need for at a minimum city centre departure times on cross-city routes. As it is the 16/16A swap last buses around between Monday/Friday and Saturday and Sunday southbound. I have no idea when the 2nd last bus leaves O'Connell Street even though it is officially timed from there!! Full working timetables for all routes need to be developed which would show reasonably accurate timings at intermediate points en route. Even where this is done at them moment there are some glaring errors - I am thinking of the 75 where it is impossible for the 0650 service ex-Dun Laoghaire to get from Stillorgan to Dundrum via Sandyford Industrial Estate in 10 minutes and then from Dundrum to Nutgrove in 5 minutes!!!! Similarly, services from Tallaght in the evening on the 75 between 1600 and 2020 are given anything from 5 to 20 minutes to get to Knocklyon Road, with the shortest times in peak hour!!!! It takes a minimum of 15 minutes to do this trip at any time!

The effort at providing intermediate journey times on all route timetables while a welcome step forward needs several refinements:
1) Split between peak and off-peak (they usually are totally different).

2) Recognise that journey times in one direction are different to the other. Every public transport company (rail and road) will include "recovery" time in the schedule to take account of delays en route and this will be towards the end of the route. While DB have done this in the times outbound, they use exactly the same journey times inbound!!! It only takes a 14/14A 5-10 minutes to get from Dundrum to Ballinteer and not 20 minutes as shown in the timetable.

The problem with most of this is that the whole passenger information system (if I can use that) lacks any proper customer focus.

Developing stop specific timetables is also a pre-requisite and this would then ignore buses on a particular route that do not serve that stop. All of these are small detailed measures that would vastly improve the information that passengers are provided with!

To get more accurate information I would always advocate ringing the garage - the controllers will always know where each route goes! The number is at the bottom of each route's timetable - hey a piece of relevant information!!! Incredible!

markf909

How the hell do I find a bus that serves a particular road in Dublin?

This really should be a solved problem by now, had to go to Templeville Rd last week and trying to figure if the 15 was a good alternative to the 54A took a good 45 minutes of research.

We need an online journey planner for public transport in this city.

gazzer

One thing I would like to see would be a circle route bus that would go from The Halfway House on the Navan Road to the city centre and back again.. that way the other buses that use that route 37,38,39A/B/C,70 would not have to stop on the Navan Road. Also when they are coming from town they would not be picking up passengers that where only going as far as say Stoneybatter or any of the stops before the Halfway House.

Last night I got the 38A home. I got on the bus on O'Connell St and it was standing room only. There was people at the next stop who wanted to go to Damastown but the bus was full. Yet by the time we got to the Maple Centre at the junction of Navan/Cabra Road about 20 people had gotten off the bus.

KC61

gazzer wrote:

One thing I would like to see would be a circle route bus that would go from The Halfway House on the Navan Road to the city centre and back again.. that way the other buses that use that route 37,38,39A/B/C,70 would not have to stop on the Navan Road. Also when they are coming from town they would not be picking up passengers that where only going as far as say Stoneybatter or any of the stops before the Halfway House.

Last night I got the 38A home. I got on the bus on O'Connell St and it was standing room only. There was people at the next stop who wanted to go to Damastown but the bus was full. Yet by the time we got to the Maple Centre at the junction of Navan/Cabra Road about 20 people had gotten off the bus.

There is already that bus - it's the 122, albeit to Ashington.

FlutterinBantam

I'd sack the fcukers who were constantly "sick"

mick.fr

We do not need buses in Dublin, we need a Metro.
We only need buses to go out of Dublin or get in from outside Dublin.

Calina

mick.fr, all cities need a bus system if only to complement a metro system. It is not an either or set up. Every city with a metro system complements it with buses, and often, also with trams.

Slice

Going back to the opening post; I'd say that DB should change all routes so they travel through the city centre as oppose to terminating in the city centre. This would reduce both traffic and pedestrian congestion in the city centre while saving a lot of people a lot of time. Also a live-timetable should also be in place especially on routes where services are not as frequent.

Pre-boarding ticket machines should also be in place at stops and or smart-ticketing.

Where lots of busses congregate because of convergence of routes or convergence of termini there should be dedicated bus stations constructed instead of these busses being made to all sit around in public spaces a la the north Quays which causes a visual barrier.

All these strategies are already implemented in London - some of them are around a long time.

dowlingm

It should be DB's job to provide a map of their routes to DTA and DTA's to produce the map including DB, BE sub, Aircoach, DART/Suburban, LUAS.

A map of DB's routes alone is insufficient - although better than nowt, as owt usually is.

Chillwithcian

RE: Wishbone's comment: Its only suggestions (obiously Angola would be poorer), no need to take them so seriously:cool:

Getting back to the point: WHY havn't live timetable been introduced at major stops that could be automaticaly updated to tell commuters exactly when the next bus is coming, it makes sense and it cant be that expensive....

shltter

FlutterinBantam wrote:

I'd sack the fcukers who were constantly "sick"

Yes sacking people with serious illness would definitely improve the traffic situation in this city. Once that was achieved traffic congestion and various other problems would sort themselves out.

Wishbone Ash

markpb wrote:

That's not up to your usual helpful standard Wishbone, it's almost trolling

Chillwithcian wrote:

RE: Wishbone's comment: Its only suggestions (obiously Angola would be poorer), no need to take them so seriously

Apologies Chillwithcian - on mature reflection I realise that I could have been much more constructive and less petty. No offense intended.

Flukey

Lots of good ideas here, many of which keep on coming up on this forum over and over again. They are common sense, which makes you wonder at times why Dublin Bus doesn't act on some of them.

Instead of thinking of what we'd do if we managed Dublin Bus, we should mount a coup!

KC61

Chillwithcian wrote:

Getting back to the point: WHY havn't live timetable been introduced at major stops that could be automaticaly updated to tell commuters exactly when the next bus is coming, it makes sense and it cant be that expensive....

I'd refer you to the 15X thread elsewhere (link below) and the specific post that I made in respect of this, which I've copied below:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055058303

Due to a lack of government investment, the only way that Dublin Bus controllers can tell where a bus is at any particular point in time is by calling the driver over the radio. They have no visual display of where any of their fleet of buses are. A new GPS tracking system is now (at last) being developed, to be completed within 30 months (mid-2009), which will then lead onto Real Time Passenger Information at bus stops to be rolled out across the network by early 2011. The combination of both of these will result in far greater control of buses with a controller becoming aware of any problems far more quickly than heretofore and being able to take action to correct it.

Alek correctly points out that the old AVM system was withdrawn leaving everyone really at a loss to know where any buses are!!

Basically it is the politicians' fault for withholding the funding for this - Dublin Bus would love to have it now!

Victor

... I'd suggest to drivers not to stop for the pedestrian lights at the corner of Molesworth Street and Kildare Street, especially if they've spotted a ministerial party leaving Transport House.

John R

Chillwithcian wrote:

RE: Wishbone's comment: Its only suggestions (obiously Angola would be poorer), no need to take them so seriously:cool:

The ex-Communist countries you mentioned might be poor now in comparison to Ireland but for the last 60 years they had totalitarian regimes that controlled all the wealth. One of the few advantages of that was the amount of investement in infrastructure and public services.

Until 10/15 years ago Ireland was a dirt-poor hole run by greedy corrupt scum that pocketed what little wealt their was while the general population had to resort to emigration to earn a living.

Yes, many of our public services are bad in comparison to other countries but the blame and the responsibility to change that lies with central government.

Chillwithcian wrote:

Getting back to the point: WHY havn't live timetable been introduced at major stops that could be automaticaly updated to tell commuters exactly when the next bus is coming, it makes sense and it cant be that expensive....

Several hundred/thousand digital displays for bus stops, monitoring equipment for 1200 buses, central control to calculate and relay the data, staff on-call to repair the equipment when the city's large scum population take to stoning/shooting/setting-on-fire the displays on a nightly basis. Oh I think it is going to be plenty expensive.

Of course it should be done, DB started a pilot scheme on the 78A and 25/66/67 corridors over 5 years ago but the funding to roll it out across the network was denied by the FF/PD government while they bickered over public/private ideologies.


This thread should be renamed "If you were Minister for Transport..." because 90% of the suggestions in it are not under control of the bus company at all.

bk

KC61 wrote:

Alek correctly points out that the old AVM system was withdrawn leaving everyone really at a loss to know where any buses are!!

Ironically the government withholding funding will likely lead to a much better and more accurate system, as a GPS system will work much better then an AVM based system.

London bus is currently planning to change over from AVM to a GPS system.

John R wrote:

Several hundred/thousand digital displays for bus stops, monitoring equipment for 1200 buses, central control to calculate and relay the data, staff on-call to repair the equipment when the city's large scum population take to stoning/shooting/setting-on-fire the displays on a nightly basis. Oh I think it is going to be plenty expensive.

I'd assume displays will only be in the city centre and on busy QBC stops.

I assume all other bus stops will have a unique ID on them that you can enter in a web browser (on PC or phone) or a text message and get the estimated arrival time of the next bus.

By 2011 most people will have a mobile phone that has web access (iPhone, etc.), so there really isn't a need to have displays at every stop.

I also assume that such a system will be used to build up more accurate stop timetables.

GUIGuy

Don't underestimate how much money the public sector could throw away on a live GPS style tracking system. Just look at how much they've spent on integrated ticking with few results.

Another simple suggestion to improve efficiency is to have bus stops that are close to traffic lights just at them. How many times does a bus stop for 2-3 minutes, pull out for a few meters and then have to stop at the lights as well. Considering that the average double decker has circa 80 passengers it would be far more efficient to let them control the lights electronically. In rush hour I doubt 80 cars get through an interval. Traffic management should be about moving people most efficiently... making buses more efficient does this.

Also I'd talk to the bus drivers who refuse to drive in bus lanes. So many times in the west of the city they just crawl along in traffic when there is a bus lane (not hard shoulder). Although they might have a good reason. The bus lanes are interupted so often that the drivers have to go back and forth between main lane & bus lane... car drivers generally don't want to give an inch to anyone.

I heard rumours that O2 proposed tracking dublin buses for free using GSM. This was a 3-4 years ago. The signal is good enough to get a pretty good triangulation on buses... don't know why that never got off the ground. Maybe DB want to be in control of the system... or maybe the unions didn't like the idea of tracking.

vandermeyde

GUIGuy wrote:

Don't underestimate how much money the public sector could throw away on a live GPS style tracking system. Just look at how much they've spent on integrated ticking with few results.

In fairness, the problems with Integrated ticketing have more to do with turf wars than anything particularly technical....

Fitting a GPS to most buses is pretty straight forward and if you check the tender document they are looking for an out of the box solution from vendors with proven expertise in the area...

it should be pretty straight-forward although it'll be a year or two after implementation before customers see the benefit from a passenger information point of view...In the short term, it's benefits will be for internal tracking/control purposes...

KC61

bk wrote:

Ironically the government withholding funding will likely lead to a much better and more accurate system, as a GPS system will work much better then an AVM based system.

London bus is currently planning to change over from AVM to a GPS system.

I do not for one minute dispute any of that. But to have NO system is just incredible in my opinion. Over the last 10 year period there has been little or no proper regulation of buses by controllers, and a controller has no idea where a bus actually is at any point in time aside from calling the driver via the radio!!!! How can you run an urban bus system effectively in that scenario? It is no way to run such a system and to a great degree removes any ability of a controller to make rapid INFORMED decisions.

Metrobest

ATTITUDE

I would stop playing the victim card and build a good relationship with the government. I would stop whingeing for more subsidies and realise that I am operating in an almost unique city environment where there is a smorgasbord of high volume routes that would be serviced by tram or metro in other cities. The profits I generate from these high volume routes will allow me to operate PSO routes at minimal or zero subsidy.

TIMETABLES

Radically redraw routes and timetables to reflect changes in demand patterns, introduce new night buses on key corridors and clockface timetables on all QBCs so passengers never have to check timetables.

COMPETITION

Agree to end the Dublin Bus monopoly on bus transport in the city, happily allowing competitition into the market. Use the competion as a motiviation for my company to raise its game.

TICKETING

Agree with my CIE sisters Irish Rail and DART a single ticket fare structure, simplifying arrangements for passengers.

Draft a simple new zonal fare structure for bus journeys.

Migration to smart cards and pre-pay over cash fare achieved by heavy discounting of these tickets.

"Pre-pay only" on QBCs at peak time with ticket machines in the city centre termini and at key stops along the QBC corridors.

OPERATIONS

Concentrate operations on high-demand routes and maintain high all-day frequencies on these routes.

No more drivers taking breaks in the city centre; breaks to be taken at the depot or outer termini.

No more buses parked up in the city centre on layovers; as soon as buses complete the inbound leg they must immediately allow passengers for the outbound leg to board the bus, like the Luas does.

Radical change to city centre bus termini - with a focus on Stephen's Green, Merrion Square and Parnell Square.

A diversion of routes away from the O'Connell Bridge bottleneck.

CUSTOMER SERVICE

Linking of subsidy level to results of an independent customer satisfaction survey.

Regular "mystery shopping" checks to monitor driver behaviour/professionalism.

Transport infoline where customers can plan a trip, find out about a delay, make a complaint or report a dirty bus.

I COULD GO ON.

AlekSmart

Quote [bk]

"I assume all other bus stops will have a unique ID on them that you can enter in a web browser (on PC or phone) or a text message and get the estimated arrival time of the next bus."

This particular aspect has already been completed.
If you check at the top of each Bus Stop,just beneath the headplate you will find a small metal plate with a serial number thereon.
This allows each stop to be referenced for route signage,type of display or any other info necessary.
It also of course facilitates the Pocket PC or mobile phone user in their quest for info.

My point about the AVM however still stands.

The London system has performed well and has had the benefit of constant upgrading as well as being an integrated part of Londons GENERAL Traffic Control system via CentreComm and the Metropolitan Police Control Centre.

The London Administrative authorities had the sense to accept that a fleet of nearly 8,000 buses had a requirement for active management and assistance as a standard operating procedure.

Dublin City`s Authorities only nod in that direction was to disconnect the Bus Garages live feed from it`s Traffic Control Cameras when Dublin Bus wouldnt pay a newly introduced fee some genius came up with.

Until somebody actually recognises that having a City Authority and its Primary Public Transport provider singing from a selection of different hymn sheets is essentially suicide in Public Transport terms then we shall remain in the stagnated state we appear to enjoy. :cool:

dowlingm

there used to be a call for next bus system in Toronto called timeline but it wouldn't support Y2K and there wasn't the divs to replace it.
http://spacing.ca/wire/?p=1475

Victor

GUIGuy wrote:

or maybe the unions didn't like the idea of tracking.

The unions haven't expressed a problem with tracking. In fact tracking has a substantial safety upside.

Metrobest how much of you post is actuall in hte control of DB?

Metrobest wrote:

ATTITUDE

I would stop playing the victim card and build a good relationship with the government. I would stop whingeing for more subsidies and realise that I am operating in an almost unique city environment where there is a smorgasbord of high volume routes that would be serviced by tram or metro in other cities. The profits I generate from these high volume routes will allow me to operate PSO routes at minimal or zero subsidy.

TIMETABLES

Radically redraw routes and timetables to reflect changes in demand patterns, introduce new night buses on key corridors and clockface timetables on all QBCs so passengers never have to check timetables.

COMPETITION

Agree to end the Dublin Bus monopoly on bus transport in the city, happily allowing competitition into the market. Use the competion as a motiviation for my company to raise its game.

TICKETING

Agree with my CIE sisters Irish Rail and DART a single ticket fare structure, simplifying arrangements for passengers.

Draft a simple new zonal fare structure for bus journeys.

Migration to smart cards and pre-pay over cash fare achieved by heavy discounting of these tickets.

"Pre-pay only" on QBCs at peak time with ticket machines in the city centre termini and at key stops along the QBC corridors.

OPERATIONS

Concentrate operations on high-demand routes and maintain high all-day frequencies on these routes.

No more drivers taking breaks in the city centre; breaks to be taken at the depot or outer termini.

No more buses parked up in the city centre on layovers; as soon as buses complete the inbound leg they must immediately allow passengers for the outbound leg to board the bus, like the Luas does.

Radical change to city centre bus termini - with a focus on Stephen's Green, Merrion Square and Parnell Square.

A diversion of routes away from the O'Connell Bridge bottleneck.

CUSTOMER SERVICE

Linking of subsidy level to results of an independent customer satisfaction survey.

Regular "mystery shopping" checks to monitor driver behaviour/professionalism.

Transport infoline where customers can plan a trip, find out about a delay, make a complaint or report a dirty bus.