Affordable Houses are crap

SkepticOne

antoinolachtnai wrote:

It is worth pointing out that the government is also subsidizing and distorting the rental market. Do you think that should stop too, or is it ok? Also, do you think the mortgage allowance for FTBs should go?

At least with rent subsidies there is some social need being catered to. With the affordable schemes it is primarily those on middle incomes that are benefitting. In order to qualify for a mortgage for one of these affordable homes you need to be on well above the industrial average wage.

Generally, subsidies for purchasing assets should be got rid of as all they do is push up the price. By pushing up the price they create the percieved need in the first place.

If the government announced that they were going to do away with all subsidies for buying property prices would quicky tumble. Of course, it is precisely for this reason that they will not do this! There are more vup the price they create the percieved need in the first place. There are more votes in high and rising property prices than tumbling ones despite what it is doing to the economy.

Calina

antoinolachtnai wrote:

What is wrong with apartment living? I can't see anything in principle wrong with a management fee.

The devil is in the detail, however. Management fee is fine, but many management companies are trading recklessly and there is a large amount of dissatisfaction with the standards of management agencies. Realistically that side of things needs to be regulated a bit better. Some education on the part of the apartment leaseholders wouldn't go astray either. It doesn't cause anywhere near the same problems in other countries, which manage even to have concierges in fairly basic apartment blocks, for example.

When I have estate agents unable to confirm the set up of management companies or the current management fees for an apartment in a complex then I am slightly unhappy and it happens just a little too often for my liking.

Calina

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Everybody has to put up with being in a less than ideal home. Obviously, it would be better if all the housing stock in Dublin was higher-spec, but it isn't.

It is worth pointing out that the government is also subsidizing and distorting the rental market. Do you think that should stop too, or is it ok? Also, do you think the mortgage allowance for FTBs should go?

Just on those two points: the fact that housing stock in Dublin isn't all that great is no reason not to demand a change there. My feeling based on looking at more than a few apartments is that they were built with profits for the developers in mind and not with any major utility value.

As for rent, I'd prefer that they didn't distort the rental market, but that they built social housing instead. But this country seems to be against that at the moment.

Supercell

antoinolachtnai wrote:

What is wrong with apartment living? I can't see anything in principle wrong with a management fee.

Nothing at all, as long as long as the apartments aren't shoddily built with poor noise insulation

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Everybody has to put up with being in a less than ideal home.

I hope you are joking!!, why the heck should someone on a decent salary want to live in a ****ty tiny box where they hear their neighbours fart or worse at night?

I'm living in a rented two bed house in a beautiful area for €700 per month which takes me 35 mins to drive to work in the southside of Dublin . If I wanted to buy something similar the mortgage payments would probably be around the €1200 minimum.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

It is worth pointing out that the government is also subsidizing and distorting the rental market. Do you think that should stop too, or is it ok? Also, do you think the mortgage allowance for FTBs should go?

I think the Government should butt the hell out of the housing market, no section tax break housing, no builders buddy so called offers (45-58k affordable housing...wtf!!! average income is around 40k ffs...how fúcking affordable is that??!!). If they really want to help the non higher earners..then build houses and offer them based on real lower incomes (read close to average income!!) and lower the damn stamp duty threshold to €200k or so..watch starter prices suddenly plummet...and houses suddenly actually become affordable to lower earners again.

What makes me want to weep is that the other idiot so called opposition party - FG, want to raise stamp duty threshold...FFS...what another gormless bunch of fúcking builders buddies tóssers.

We get the government we deserve I suppose, the yanks got Bush..we get corrupt builders buddies as governance.

Next election I'm going Green Party or Sinn Fein, at least they stand for something that's not bought out by brown envelopes and fúcking race tents for the rich and gormless at the Galway races..

ronbyrne2005

Calina wrote:

Yes well that would be you out then because, you know, when I rule the world, houses will only go to those people who do actually know how to spell meritocracy.

As a side note, one of the primary issues I have with governance in Ireland is that much of it is overly centralised, decisions are made at Dail level and implemented at local authority level. This leaves local authorities with little in the way of autonomy, and of course, there are major issues with funding which is why they were happy with the loophole that allowed them to charge developers money rather than force them to turn 20% of their output over to affordable in the past four or five years.

You may see that as a good thing - depower the local authorities still further. I say it's what has us in this mess in the first place, but that's based on the fact that I've actually lived in five other countries besides this one and while I'd venture to say the economy is heading for a tough time - as all economies reach once in a while, it is not totally clapped out.

The point I would also make is that it is the attachment to judging individuals by their financial success has led to the distortion in the property market here - only those who could afford it have bought into it, and it is they, as market participants, who have driven the market into the mess that it is in. Meritocracy as a system only works for people with money. As a system for building communities and society, it sucks, if only because it creates a culture of envy which is at the root of a lot of social problems.

What about those that can't spell disempower?

I agree a meritocracy does'nt mean those with biggest bank balance get to live in most desirable areas. If so our police officers, nurses, firemen, low paid artists and academics etc could'nt live where they work which is not ideal for society. In fact this house price mania has done more harm than good to society. In most countries these lower paid members of society have access to live near their work as housing is a much lower part of their living expenses.

Kingsize

Calina wrote:

Kingsize, this is where you are wrong.

1) rent can only be raised on one occasion during the year, and only in line with market conditions. If rent is going up by 100% then this country is screwed because it indicates hyperinflation.

2) the minimum amount of notice is variable. Most people will be on a fixed term lease which can't be broken without an immense amount of hassle. For anyone else, if they are in the property longer than 6 months, they are entitled to stay there for up to 4 years and specific notice periods apply. I think the max is 56 days.

There is, in fact, something which can be done. Complaints can be made to the PRTB. In 80% of cases last year, the tenant won the case.

In Theory but try walking to work from ranelagh with two broken legs,from my experiences landlords are C_unts & if they want you out they'll have you out one way or another up to & including setting fire to their own property.
Or What happens when you are given notice & suddenly you find that you can't find a decent place to rent That isn't twice the price of your current place.Also take on board that what i actually meant by this is that living on a knife edge not knowing where youre gonna be living next year is all well & good when you are young free & single & when all else fails move back to mummy & daddy but It's not always gonna be that way & not everyone has those ooptions.
Rent control would alleviate some of this but I've no doubt somebody would be gettin' a backhander there too.

For my money 80% of complaints won by tenants isn't good enough to warrant any kind of confidence in the system, especially when you consider large amounts of shi_TTy rental accommodation in Dublin is owned by landlords who aren't even registered as landlords with the PRTB.

antoinolachtnai

To butt out of the market, the government would need to do the following:

- get rid of rent relief for renters and buyers (resulting in house prices going down and rents going up)

- put stamp duty up to 9 percent across the board

- get rid of rent relief (making rents less affordable).

- get rid of the capital gains exemption on homes

- sell the state land bank to developers.

- cancel the Metro and Luas projects and end rail subsidies

I don't see how butting out would do anything other than cause instability.

Victor

Cantab. wrote:

Affordable Houses are crap

Quality wise, many will be better built as the local council will have been looking over the builder's shoulder.

SkepticOne

antoinolachtnai wrote:

To butt out of the market, the government would need to do the following:

- get rid of rent relief for renters and buyers (resulting in house prices going down and rents going up)

- put stamp duty up to 9 percent across the board

- get rid of rent relief (making rents less affordable).

- get rid of the capital gains exemption on homes

- sell the state land bank to developers.

- cancel the Metro and Luas projects and end rail subsidies

I don't see how butting out would do anything other than cause instability.

I think the government interfering in the market where socially necessary is OK, but general subsidies and allowances only force prices up. Rent relief for the most part goes into landlords pockets in the form of higher rents, imo.

If you want stability then the goal should be to burst the land and housing bubble as quickly as possible. Therefore the state should dump its land bank onto the market as quickly as possible. This would burst the bubble in land prices pretty fast.

Instead, they are buying up land from developers continuing the damage that is being done to the economy.

mentalson

CherieAmour wrote:

The income limit is €40,000 in the previous year for a single person or €100,000 for a joint application based on 2.5 times the main income plus the other income. I'd like to see how anyone earning that could afford to spend €350k plus on their own home.

At the end of the day, people need homes. This is a solution introduced by the government to rectify that.

I don't think that anyone here has any problem with affordable housing scheme housing. The problem is with the new pre election housing . This is being bought off developers on the open market at inflated prices and only those who earn at least €45,000 a year are eligible for consideration. Many people see this as subsidised housing for the well off while those on average or lower incomes are ignored

fintan

Cantab. wrote:

Ah yes, I see. Well you're hardly going to bite the hand that feeds you then, are you?

You say " Affordable houses are Crap"! and then imply there is something wrong with living in :
Hampton Wood, Finglas
Laburnam Cottage Apartments, Ashtown
Park West, Dublin 12
Priory Hall, Donaghmede
Prospect Hill, Finglas

I was making the point as someone who has actually been to all of these estates, that there is nothing wrong with them and that there is nothing wrong with these areas.

How many of the above areas have you been too? How many of the above houses have you seen?

Cantab. wrote:

This springs to mind:
http://www.neighbours.ie/belfry/showthread.php?t=147

Yes joy-riders are never a good thing, and I'm assuming you will personally vouch that a joy-rider has never driven through Ranelagh?

Cantab. wrote:

Yeah, they start pulling the finger out when the market is tanking and it looks like their buddies won't be making as much money out of their development of 50 apartments as they originally thought. The council should stick to providing emergency and council housing for the unemployed/needy, and stop dabbling in the mass conning of hard-working people.

I don't believe that is the aim of the housing scheme and its a sad reflection on politics in Ireland if what you believe is the common opinion.

Can you explain your following comment please?

Cantab. wrote:

the mass conning of hard-working people

Cantab. wrote:

The state should not using taxpayers' money to pay for peoples' houses en masse. This interference only skews an already unstable market even further.

I can be a little slow, can you explain how it has skewed the market?

Cantab. wrote:

That said, those unemployed single mothers and people from poor and uneducationaly disadvantaged backgrounds, should be given a leg up in the form of a free rented house/apartment.

I agree

Cantab. wrote:

There is no alternative to young families being provided by our leaders - because of the lack of legislation in the rental sector, those who wish to rent on a long-term basis can't.

So you feel there should be no affordable housing and the government should instead just upgrade the protection to long-term renters? You could have just said that at the very beginning

Cantab. wrote:

In fact, if such a couple picked up decent qualifications here in Ireland over the last few years (as they most probably have), they'd be better off emigrating to Australia (also, the weather is better there).

Yes property is much cheaper in Australia, however, you do need a visa to live there.

Cantab.

fintan wrote:

You say " Affordable houses are Crap"! and then imply there is something wrong with living in :
Hampton Wood, Finglas
Laburnam Cottage Apartments, Ashtown
Park West, Dublin 12
Priory Hall, Donaghmede
Prospect Hill, Finglas

I was making the point as someone who has actually been to all of these estates, that there is nothing wrong with them and that there is nothing wrong with these areas.

How many of the above areas have you been too? How many of the above houses have you seen?

So you have a Ph D in seeing more houses than anyone else. Wow. I have had the misfortune of visiting numerous apartment complexes in Dublin that have been recently built - my overall impression of the kind of buildings that have gone up in Dublin in the last 5 years would be a mixture of:
- unambitious, bland architecture
- cheap, low-cost, catalogue engineering materials
- poor noise insulation
- poor road and public transport
- unscrupulous management companies
- overall, the primary driver in the construction of a new aparment complex is that of maximising profits. To hell with whoever's going to live there. This attitude of developers will not last much longer as the manic frenzy disintegrates and there is so much choice available to a potential buyer.

fintan wrote:

Yes joy-riders are never a good thing, and I'm assuming you will personally vouch that a joy-rider has never driven through Ranelagh?

I don't believe that is the aim of the housing scheme and its a sad reflection on politics in Ireland if what you believe is the common opinion.

Can't say I've come across many in the 4 years I've been living here. Can't say I've come across many junkies, unruly teenagers playing music on street corners at night time, graffiti nor drug rehabilitation centres either. Had I children, I'd imagine (in fact it's statistically proven) they'd do pretty well in the local schools.

fintan wrote:

Can you explain your following comment please?

Well if it turns out that local councils are indeed buying up housing off nervous developers, then they are participating in the mass conning of hard-working people. I can only conclude that they are doing deals - and secret deals at that for hundreds of millions of euro. If the developers were so civicly minded, why aren't they selling their prize apartments on the open market where they'd achieve top dollar? The hard-working people that I speak of are being left to live in completely unsuitable accommodation and left to the mercy of private management companies.

fintan wrote:

I can be a little slow, can you explain how it has skewed the market?

How does affordable housing skew the market? Well - if the government are going to effectively cut the price of owning an apartment in two, you are obviously going to get a skew. The problem where I see it, is that the price of apartment is probably going to be cut in two anyway (supply and demand and the panic entering the Irish property market). The government are effectively prolonging the crash (a useful thing to do especially considering how close we are to election time), whilst at the same time off-loading risk of developers onto the Irish tax-payer. People on incomes of 40k-70k can well afford to have a decent standard of living, invest money and drive a nice car. They do not need to own a home to be wealthy. If they had an ounce of a brain (which they probably do seeing as someone wants to pay them 40k-70k), they'd hold-off, anticipate the storm and see through the smoke and mirrors that is the great scam of the affordable housing scheme (in which incidentally, there are no houses, just high profit-margin flats).

fintan wrote:

So you feel there should be no affordable housing and the government should instead just upgrade the protection to long-term renters? You could have just said that at the very beginning

There should be no affordable housing for those who can well afford to live a luxurious lifestyle. They do not need government hand-outs (nor does someone on 25k for that matter). And yes, there should be long-term rental protections. But this discussion is not about that, it's about dodgy dealings, poor-quality 'housing', and unnecessary government intervention in an already unstable market.

Indicedntally, what does someone on 25k do? They would not qualify for council housing, and they can't get an affordable home like their 42% taxpaying counterparts. It's just tough luck for them? They're not entitled to an enhancement in their personal wealth in the form of a government hand-out? Sure someone on 25k is probably too busy working to worry about such worldly matters (and probably won't vote either).

fintan wrote:

Yes property is much cheaper in Australia, however, you do need a visa to live there.

And if you had a degree in engineering, medicine, nursing, accounting (courtesy of the Irish government), you'd have no problem going there.

Sponge Bob

Mailman wrote:

I remember not too long ago when 58K was a good salary.

I remember not so long ago when €58k was £50k and would buy a decent semi with no pick a number and double it next year management charges crapola.

However I Do take it that the same government that bought these apartments for resale will ensure that only the highest standard of management company and management agent will be tolerated in these developments and that they have carried out a due diligence on same .

MiaMia

mentalson wrote:

I don't think that anyone here has any problem with affordable housing scheme housing. The problem is with the new pre election housing . This is being bought off developers on the open market at inflated prices and only those who earn at least €45,000 a year are eligible for consideration. Many people see this as subsidised housing for the well off while those on average or lower incomes are ignored

This is very true - couldn 't agree more.

Sleepy

CherieAmour wrote:

The income limit is €40,000 in the previous year for a single person or €100,000 for a joint application based on 2.5 times the main income plus the other income. I'd like to see how anyone earning that could afford to spend €350k plus on their own home.

At the end of the day, people need homes.

Why? Are there not plenty of rental properties on the market for these people?

I personally resent the suggestion that I should pay tax so that another member of society no worse off than me should be assisted to acquire a valuable asset that their salary doesn't permit them to afford. If you can't afford to buy a house, rent until you're earning enough to buy one. If that day never comes, it never comes. It's not society's job to ensure that everyone owns their own home.

Cantab.

Sleepy wrote:

Why? Are there not plenty of rental properties on the market for these people?

I personally resent the suggestion that I should pay tax so that another member of society no worse off than me should be assisted to acquire a valuable asset that their salary doesn't permit them to afford. If you can't afford to buy a house, rent until you're earning enough to buy one. If that day never comes, it never comes. It's not society's job to ensure that everyone owns their own home.

I don't own a home in Ireland, and I agree with you 100%. The market should be left alone and it will eventually move out of this transient period and settle to a steady-state.

The affordable housing scheme is running the risk of back-firing in the government's face. FTBs will see that the market is tanking and will hold off - "why buy now when prices are falling, especially in poor areas?" and middle-class home-owners will resent the fact that their tax money is being used to enhance the wealth of above-average earners. Not only that, if the secrecy surrounding the deals being done between local councils and developers is not explained, there will be wide-spread discontent amongst the electorate.

Sponge Bob

the government is trying to chase down another 5000 of these units during fiscal 2007 in Dublin Meath and Kildare or so I hear , there are none to be had in Wicklow despite its inclusion on the list.

MiaMia

Sleepy wrote:

Why? Are there not plenty of rental properties on the market for these people?

I am 36 years old - I have been house sharing for 18 years and have never had a lease longer than a year. I want a place that I can paint! buy my own furniture and call HOME! Rent has gone up 200% in the past ten years - but if I had been in a position to buy ten years ago then my mortgage repayments would have gone down by now.

I personally resent the suggestion that I should pay tax so that another member of society no worse off than me should be assisted to acquire a valuable asset that their salary doesn't permit them to afford.

I pay the top rate of tax and have been paying tax for 18 years. If you are on the same salary as me you are entitled to wait 3 years for the same valuable asset! Unless you stay longer than 10 years in an affordable home - you will not make any money on the deal.

If you can't afford to buy a house, rent until you're earning enough to buy one. If that day never comes, it never comes. It's not society's job to ensure that everyone owns their own home.

Housing is a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT.

Next you will say we should not provide schools for children and hospital care for the sick.

KingKenny7

Housing is a basic right, and thats something that most people in ireland cant afford.

I;m saving for a house at the mo, while I can easily afford the repayments, I;m just not going to justify the price of a house. It was the same with car insurance, 4k for a 21 year old was madness.

Will this government learn, that the back handers, and shoddy deals with builders is running this country. And if you think about it standard people cant purchase a house then its time for the government to step in.

This whole affordable house is a joke,certain people can get them, others are earning decent money and struggling. Why should the hard workers who want to make a life for themselves suffer???

Move to Oz is the only answer

jam_mac_jam

owning your own house is not a human right. Why can't you rent? These people are not homeless you know but are on quite a good wage.

KingKenny7

Renting is one thing, owning is another. Its yours, you can dont have to worry about being evicted coz the landlord wants to see. You want to be able to knock a wall, build a nursery etc etc. Renting you cant do that....

Cantab.

KingKenny7 wrote:

Renting is one thing, owning is another. Its yours, you can dont have to worry about being evicted coz the landlord wants to see. You want to be able to knock a wall, build a nursery etc etc. Renting you cant do that....

Do you realise what the difference between renting and owning in a modest suburb of Dublin is in 2007?

Buy for €3,000 a month (well in to 42% tax territory):
buy
or rent for €1,500 a month (not so much into 42% tax territory):
rent
So it's a hefty price to pay for the privilige of being able to knock down a wall. Then again, if the washing machine breaks down, you can just call your landlord during his lunch break.

But this debate isn't about buying vs. renting.

jam_mac_jam

KingKenny7 wrote:

Renting is one thing, owning is another. Its yours, you can dont have to worry about being evicted coz the landlord wants to see. You want to be able to knock a wall, build a nursery etc etc. Renting you cant do that....

so the government should pay for the right for people to knock a wall or build a nursery? I think that is going a little far.

KingKenny7

They should pay for the right for people to own their own home.
Everyone is entitled to own a piece of land.
A home is not a luxury.

jam_mac_jam

KingKenny7 wrote:

They should pay for the right for people to own their own home.
Everyone is entitled to own a piece of land.
A home is not a luxury.

em, yes it is. There is no human right to own a house, you may think its a nice idea but you are not entitled to it by the very fact of being alive.

Calina

KingKenny7 wrote:

They should pay for the right for people to own their own home.
Everyone is entitled to own a piece of land.
A home is not a luxury.

No they bleeding well should not. We would not be having this debate if they had done something about crashing the market before it was far, far too late.

The issue is that houses are too expensive. Throwing money at the problem doesn't make it go away, it exacerbates it. There is no God given entitlement to owning a piece of land, and most of the people under this scheme aren't even going to own land anyway, they'll be leaseholders because guess what, apartment owners don't own land. They own the space within four walls.

A home is not a luxury. But nor is a home a piece of paper. Whether where you are living is a home or not does not depend on you owning it. It depends on how you live in it.

Renting is not without its problems in this country, I'll grant you that. But nor is owning and there are a lot of people trying to sell properties who are finding that out now.

KingKenny7

Calina wrote:

No they bleeding well should not. We would not be having this debate if they had done something about crashing the market before it was far, far too late.

The issue is that houses are too expensive. Throwing money at the problem doesn't make it go away, it exacerbates it. There is no God given entitlement to owning a piece of land, and most of the people under this scheme aren't even going to own land anyway, they'll be leaseholders because guess what, apartment owners don't own land. They own the space within four walls.

A home is not a luxury. But nor is a home a piece of paper. Whether where you are living is a home or not does not depend on you owning it. It depends on how you live in it.

Renting is not without its problems in this country, I'll grant you that. But nor is owning and there are a lot of people trying to sell properties who are finding that out now.

I;m deffo not sayin throw more money at the issue, I dunno what the solution would be. Granted a crash would sort it out, but would hurt the economy.
This whole affordable stuff, is the government trying to keep the market up by creating demand, and having the voters believe that they are doing something about the market.

At the end of the day, we're being lead by money hungry rats, and no matter what we say here, they will try to make more moey regardless of the ordinary people,

Calina

KingKenny7 wrote:

....Granted a crash would sort it out, but would hurt the economy...

The problem is that an asset bubble driven by debt will hurt the country more in the long term. Unfortunately, not too many people are ready to recognise that reality.

Cantab.

KingKenny7 wrote:

I;m deffo not sayin throw more money at the issue, I dunno what the solution would be. Granted a crash would sort it out, but would hurt the economy.
This whole affordable stuff, is the government trying to keep the market up by creating demand, and having the voters believe that they are doing something about the market.

At the end of the day, we're being lead by money hungry rats, and no matter what we say here, they will try to make more moey regardless of the ordinary people,

I agree with you here. Not so sure about the owning a home being a human right though...

Affordable housing is a scam. Buyer beware - otherwise you'll end up in an undesirable area for the next 35 years complete with ASBO-kids and a culture of going to the local shopping centre for a day out.

fintan

Its this attitude that is really winding me up about your posts on affordable housing:

Cantab. wrote:

Affordable housing is a scam. Buyer beware - otherwise you'll end up in an undesirable area for the next 35 years complete with ASBO-kids and a culture of going to the local shopping centre for a day out.

I know plenty of people who live in Finglas and Tallaght and all those other areas you listed and they are all hard-working people who want to get on with their lives and do the best they can for their kids.

I have also seen a large number of houses purchased through the scheme and they are generally of the same quality / standard as the other houses on the estate.