Affordable Houses are crap

Cantab.

I don't know where these neuve-socialist policies, that are being pursued all of a sudden by those in power, are coming from.

I just can't see any attraction whatsoever in wanting to live in:
Hampton Wood, Finglas
Laburnam Cottage Apartments, Ashtown
Park West, Dublin 12
Priory Hall, Donaghmede
Prospect Hill, Finglas
etc.

The whole affordable housing scheme smacks of corruption and bailing out buddy developers. Don't get sucked into the whirlpool - the market is tanking left, right and centre. If the government were so concerned about the social needs of young people, they would have been implementing these policies years ago - not now on the brink of a melt-down in the construction industry.

We've had tribunals, prison sites being bought at inflated prices, lease-back arrangements on state buildings, spurious local governence who have given us inconsistent, back-slapping re-zoning policies, indeed an overall planning mess. What possible reason is there to believe that the local authorities are going to deliver affordable housing? The concept of social good and the imagery of happy young couples going for walks in the countryside is the wool of this sheep. The real wolf of this scheme though, is the sinister underbelly of back-handers and brown envelopes.

fintan

We have carried out snag lists inspections on all of those estates listed (apart from the Ashtown one) and they are all fine houses and apartments and there is nothing wrong with living in any of those estates.

In fact why not visit www.neighbours.ie and talk to the residents themselves?

You say "What possible reason is there to believe that the local authorities are going to deliver affordable housing?"

Well local authorities are delivering affordable houses, I personally think the affordable housing scheme is a very good idea and that there should be more houses made available under it.

If you are so against the scheme maybe you would like to out-line your alternative proposal?

Mailman

Not sure about brown envelopes but agree with the rest.

The one thing that is going to cause major resentment amongst the general public is that the way the affordable housing scheme is being operated at the moment is destabilising the second hand market for entry level houses.
The developers are rushing for the exits. Home owners and investors/speculators are being held back from the exits because potential first time buyers are being induced to buy affordable housing in preference to second-hand property. second-hand house prices are being depressed by this tinkering.
I don't feel any pity for the investors\speculators but would have great sympathy for a distressed home-owner looking to sell out who can't meet their mortgage repayments and are having to drop asking prices by 20 or 30K as a result of competition from houses being sold through affordable housing scheme to buyers on fairly good incomes.

Calina

Fintan, with all due respect: the property market in this country is actually quite askew, given the extremely heavy dependance on investors to hold the racket up in the past few years. I have nothing against affordable housing apart from the minor difficulty that in many cases, it is still not affordable. When someone earning 60% above the average salary in a country can't afford to buy a one bedroomed apartment and rents are up to 60% less than a corresponding mortgage on said property, then there is something wrong with the property market as a whole.

I would prefer it if that were addressed - eg by implementing and policing guidelines for landlords and implementing proper tenancy legislation which might have an impact on the investment market and thus a knock on effect on the property market as a whole. The affordable housing program includes people on the higher tax bracket. The country is seriously skewed if it's necessary to help people who are considered relatively well off to buy a house.

The property bubble should have been pricked before it got to this situation. Affordable/social housing shouldn't be necessary for people on the higher tax bracket. The fact that it is speaks volumes.

CherieAmour

Please! :rolleyes: Why must there always be a brown envelope?

The Affordable Housing scheme is a great scheme. The councils ARE delivering (have you chosen to ignore the €21.5bn going into housing in the latest NDP?) All you have to do is look around this forum to see the amount of happy customers availing of the scheme. The councils and government are working very hard to implement it and are succeeding.

The fact is, house prices are just so high now that the majority of people can't afford their own home. At least the government is addressing this issue by giving people the opportunity to own their own home built to a high standard at an affordable price.

I can't believe that they also get flack for doing something right. It appears with people like you the government can't win.

Also, fair play for insulting no less than 4 areas of the city. I'm sure the people from there will be delighted with your opinion.

Mailman

fintan wrote:

I personally think the affordable housing scheme is a very good idea and that there should be more houses made available under it.

I personally think the affordable housing scheme is a daft idea as currently operated and it is destabilizing the free market to the benefit of the developers.
I wouldn't have half as much confidence in the houses being bought off developers for sale through affordable housing scheme as ones that were initially conceived and built as affordable housing.

Disclaimer - I live in a very well built affordable housing scheme home.

CherieAmour

Affordable/social housing shouldn't be necessary for people on the higher tax bracket. The fact that it is speaks volumes.

I don't feel any pity for the investors\speculators but would have great sympathy for a distressed home-owner looking to sell out who can't meet their mortgage repayments and are having to drop asking prices by 20 or 30K as a result of competition from houses being sold through affordable housing scheme to buyers on fairly good incomes.

The income limit is €40,000 in the previous year for a single person or €100,000 for a joint application based on 2.5 times the main income plus the other income. I'd like to see how anyone earning that could afford to spend €350k plus on their own home.

At the end of the day, people need homes. This is a solution introduced by the government to rectify that.

Mailman

Income limit is 45K - 58K for some "affordable" housing
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055051557

I remember not too long ago when 58K was a good salary.

in all fairness in any country (in my opinion at least) the average wage should be able to afford to buy the average property

The government shouldnt have to step in with any affordable scheme - I you could buy your own propery without any messing it would be alot better

CherieAmour

Mailman wrote:

Income limit is 45K - 58K for some "affordable" housing
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055051557

I remember not too long ago when 58K was a good salary.

Those amounts refer to the Affordable Housing Initiative, not the Affordable Housing Scheme. With the initiative the houses are dearer (sometimes €30-€40k dearer) and you get a mortgage from your bank, not the council.

The amounts I have given above refer to the Scheme.

58k may be a good wage but if you are buying a house for 400k I still doubt it will get you very far these days.

Mailman

You'll note I didn't say the 45K to 58K salary limit was for the affordable housing scheme but people in that salary band are being diverted from the open market in to a scheme for houses which developers are having difficulty selling on the open market.

Cantab.

fintan wrote:

We have carried out snag lists inspections on all of those estates listed (apart from the Ashtown one) and they are all fine houses and apartments and there is nothing wrong with living in any of those estates.

Ah yes, I see. Well you're hardly going to bite the hand that feeds you then, are you?

fintan wrote:

In fact why not visit www.neighbours.ie and talk to the residents themselves?

This springs to mind:
http://www.neighbours.ie/belfry/showthread.php?t=147

fintan wrote:

You say "What possible reason is there to believe that the local authorities are going to deliver affordable housing?"

Well local authorities are delivering affordable houses, I personally think the affordable housing scheme is a very good idea and that there should be more houses made available under it.

Yeah, they start pulling the finger out when the market is tanking and it looks like their buddies won't be making as much money out of their development of 50 apartments as they originally thought. The council should stick to providing emergency and council housing for the unemployed/needy, and stop dabbling in the mass conning of hard-working people.

fintan wrote:

If you are so against the scheme maybe you would like to out-line your alternative proposal?

The state should not using taxpayers' money to pay for peoples' houses en masse. This interference only skews an already unstable market even further. That said, those unemployed single mothers and people from poor and uneducationaly disadvantaged backgrounds, should be given a leg up in the form of a free rented house/apartment.
There is no alternative to young families being provided by our leaders - because of the lack of legislation in the rental sector, those who wish to rent on a long-term basis can't. In fact, if such a couple picked up decent qualifications here in Ireland over the last few years (as they most probably have), they'd be better off emigrating to Australia (also, the weather is better there).

Tea drinker

CherieAmour wrote:

The councils ARE delivering (have you chosen to ignore the €21.5bn going into housing in the latest NDP?) All you have to do is look around this forum to see the amount of happy customers availing of the scheme. The councils and government are working very hard to implement it and are succeeding.

The fact is, house prices are just so high now that the majority of people can't afford their own home. At least the government is addressing this issue by giving people the opportunity to own their own home built to a high standard at an affordable price.

I can't believe that they also get flack for doing something right. It appears with people like you the government can't win.

Hey Cherie,
Just because they SAID they would spend x doesn't mean they will.... many examples of this before.

I'm not availing of the scheme, and I'm not happy about it, in fact I don't know anyone who is.

I think Compulsory purchase orders 6 years ago would have seen off the current problem. I am in favour of them as long as the owner does not get shafted and it is for common good. They are used all the time for roads... why not new developments? It's too late to use them now, and who is better off? Employers have to pay huge inflated salaries to people who have mortgages to pay, massive rental because of an ASS of decentralisation, national development plan.. oh please I am getting upset.:mad:

Cantab.

CherieAmour wrote:

The Affordable Housing scheme is a great scheme. The councils ARE delivering (have you chosen to ignore the €21.5bn going into housing in the latest NDP?)

Mmm. The NDP is politically motivated, therefore I would take any promises made in the plan with a pinch of salt. What about similar "plans" such as the "decentralisation scheme" and the "national spatial strategy"? What about the fact that after the last NDP we still don't have a motorway linking any of the major cities and the journey times by diesel train between the major cities is a joke by european standards. Countries like Slovenia with a GDP of what Ireland had in 1995 have better infrastructure. So, so much for this grandious NDP.

CherieAmour wrote:

All you have to do is look around this forum to see the amount of happy customers availing of the scheme.

What you've just said there hits to the crux of what I'm saying on this thread - the council see citizens, not as citizens, but as "customers" who are queueing up to be sacraficed.

CherieAmour wrote:

The councils and government are working very hard to implement it and are succeeding.

I'm sure they're working very hard. I wonder how many of them work after 5 p.m. (like thousands of private sector workers who pay their salaries do)?

CherieAmour wrote:

The fact is, house prices are just so high now that the majority of people can't afford their own home. At least the government is addressing this issue by giving people the opportunity to own their own home built to a high standard at an affordable price.

Everybody doesn't have to own a home you know. And besides, these apartments on offer by the councils hardly constitutes "ownership". Often the apartments are leased on 99 year leases, and the management company (which is often controlled by the developer who holds a large/majority stake) dictates what the annual fee will be. In addition, you'll probably have to apply for permission if you want to put up a sky dish and pay huge money if you get married and want an extra car park space for your wife.

CherieAmour wrote:

I can't believe that they also get flack for doing something right. It appears with people like you the government can't win.

No, I wish the council would just stick to bins, water and fixing the roads - they can't even do this right as far as anyone can see. Now they think they can play big-money games with developers which are passed off as "providing housing for the poor young commuting couples of celtic tiger Ireland". Wasn't it the councils by way of their incompetent planning and corruption who created this new underclass in Ireland? And now they feel guilty all of a sudden and want to "help them out"?! LOL!

CherieAmour wrote:

Also, fair play for insulting no less than 4 areas of the city. I'm sure the people from there will be delighted with your opinion.

I wonder how many councillers/property developers choose to build their mansions in the aforementioned areas? The phenomenon of "good areas" and "bad areas" is a function of the social stratification that takes place in any free society. If you want to give yourself and your kids a better chance in life, you choose to live in the "best area" that you can afford (i.e. well away from joyriders, drug dealers, schools with high drop-out rates, etc., etc.).These statistical truths are the natural influencers on any young couple wishing to have children and raise them up. That's the way is always has been. Unless of course, the council have another grand socialist plan to house everyone from doctors down to bin men in communist-bloc aparments... Now that is utopia.

Kingsize

As a matter of interest cantab where do you live? Because your original post smacks of Snobbishness more than anything else.

Cantab.

Kingsize wrote:

As a matter of interest cantab where do you live?

I live in Ranelagh in a rented house. I'm very happy here. I'm 25 and would be a prime target of the councils (i'm in receipt of their affordable housing newsletters - I laugh each time I open them and read the patronising, presumptuous language). The prospects of Northern Cross are a joke, when you consider I am living in a house beside the city, is deathly quiet, is within walkable distance to work, and I can just up and move to another place/country whenever I so please. The risks of being tied to a mortgage in a flat complex beside a halting site are massive, especially when you consider what is actually going on in this so-called wonder economy of ours. My opinion is that, at present, your money is best left out of property and in other portfolios.

Kingsize

I take your points about backhanders electioneering & Corruption,but it seems that is how things work In all Countries & especially here in Ireland, but short of a bloody civil war & Hanging politicians from the lamposts in the streets & hoping the new boss isn't the same as the old one, what can be done ? seriously who's gonna do anything about it.???
What political party isn't gonna suck the Corporate Cock??
You are living in a rented flat in a nice area of Dublin & can up sticks when you want.
Not everyone is in that situation & most people with familes are more interested in keeping a roof over their heads & Food on the table & not about the best type of portfolios Don't blame them for wanting to own their own house when it's offered to them at an affordable price even if it is a vote catching ploy.

Mr. Presentable

Cantab. wrote:

I live in Ranelagh in a rented house. I'm very happy here. I'm 25 and would be a prime target of the councils (i'm in receipt of their affordable housing newsletters - I laugh each time I open them and read the patronising, presumptuous language). The prospects of Northern Cross are a joke, when you consider I am living in a house beside the city, is deathly quiet, is within walkable distance to work, and I can just up and move to another place/country whenever I so please. The risks of being tied to a mortgage in a flat complex beside a halting site are massive, especially when you consider what is actually going on in this so-called wonder economy of ours. My opinion is that, at present, your money is best left out of property and in other portfolios.

The thing is, if you need help buying, and are offered it, why do you feel begrudging about it? The old adage of not looking a gift horse in the mouth springs to mind. You want to keep renting, fine, do that, but don't expect the sos to house you in Ranelagh just because you're a snob, and let's face it, that's how you come across.

Calina

CherieAmour wrote:

Please! :rolleyes: Why must there always be a brown envelope?

The Affordable Housing scheme is a great scheme. The councils ARE delivering (have you chosen to ignore the €21.5bn going into housing in the latest NDP?) All you have to do is look around this forum to see the amount of happy customers availing of the scheme. The councils and government are working very hard to implement it and are succeeding.

The fact is, house prices are just so high now that the majority of people can't afford their own home. At least the government is addressing this issue by giving people the opportunity to own their own home built to a high standard at an affordable price.

I can't believe that they also get flack for doing something right. It appears with people like you the government can't win.

Also, fair play for insulting no less than 4 areas of the city. I'm sure the people from there will be delighted with your opinion.

I was out enjoying the sunshine, sorry.

CherieAmour, I'm sorry, I have to disagree. The property market in Ireland is a fiasco, and the affordable housing initiatives over the past few years have done little to address the key problem, which was housing inflation up to 20% yoy over the last while. This inflation is a bad thing, and instead of flinging money towards people and condition driven affordable housing, the heat should have been taken out of the market so that this inflation did not occur.

Last year, up to 40% of the properties sold in this country were sold to investors. They did not need those houses. Many of those houses have not yet been occupied because many investors assumed that they could make money on their property via capital appreciation and housing price inflation rather than getting people to live in them. I can't remember the exact percentage but a significant number of houses in this country are unoccupied/unaccounted for and that number does not include holiday homes.

The affordable housing schemes come with some conditions, in terms of clawback in the event of subsequent sale. I'm not totally au fait with them, but they exist. Not only that, they are in fixed areas. Few if any of them are suitable to my needs and a lot of them may not suit the needs of many people into the long term. It is problematic in that it skews the decision making process for people buying into them - I mean, looking at the list above, not one is listed in the town I live in, and none of them are on a public transport route to where I work.

The government, in my opinion, has gone completely the wrong way about this. They should be aiming to take the heat out of the market. In truth, a soft landing is no longer really adequate to the housing market in Ireland, we need a crash. Unfortunately, the price of that is that a lot of people are going to take a heavy loss, but not too many people cared about that on the way up. Realistically, I'd have preferred to see them deal with tenancy legislation in a way that, for example, prevented landlords from using property sale as a reason to end Part VI leases, and had extremely heavy penalties for not registering with the PRTB and declaring income.

It is unlikely that 21.5BE will make it into housing in the NDP. I say this for two reasons a) it is likely that if that NDP gets implemented, as things go in this country, the figure will probably rise and b) if the property market in this country eventually does correct, all bets are off but I would say the likelihood is that we the tax payer will have gotten very poor value for money.

__________________

On to another subject: Northern Cross: I have severe doubts about this development. I'm interested, in away, that's high profile on the affordable side of things because I recall that in one of the earlier phases a few years ago, I thought it was a horrifically overpriced development. On its plus side, it's got a decent restaurant at the Hilton, and with Clarehall, some decent shopping, although a horrible road junction to cross. But it's in the middle of a building site, and will be until Belmayne is finished. I don't know how much more of that there is to go. Road access wise, it's on a very, very busy road junction, both the Malahide Road and the N32 are very busy roads and at 3pm today they were both extremely busy. I would not choose to live there, regardless of whether it was been given to me at an affordable rate or I was coughing up full whack for the property.

________________________

Ultimately there is nothing wrong with renting in principle, unfortunately, in this country, it's a bit of a fiasco. I'm not, as it happens, still 25, so the advantages outlined by Cantab. are a bit irrelevant in my case. Ultimately, leasing arrangements here leave quite a lot to be desired, plus the quick-buck nature of business in Ireland (there is a thread here where the OP was stuck with a house sale less than 12 months after his landlord had bought this property). Many landlords are very well up on their rights but are somewhat unclear on their responsibilities.

The property market in Ireland is highly immature, regardless of what any estate agent will tell you. It's not a get rich quick scheme in the long term and I suspect that many of the gains made over the past 5 years or so will be wiped out relatively quickly. As I haven't done the maths, I'm not sure where that leaves people going into affordable housing programmes in this country particularly if there are attached conditions. Not only that, the whole question of the management of apartment blocks in this country also is worrying.

Personally I'd prefer greater freedom of choice in where I buy property. Until I can do that, then I'll continue to rent/save.

Kingsize

I agree Nipplenuts & Cantab should also Also bear in mind that although you are Happy where you are Your landlord can kick you out with a minimum of notice /or tell you tomorrow that he / she is gonna Put your rent up by 100% & theres nothing you can do.

Calina

nipplenuts wrote:

The thing is, if you need help buying, and are offered it, why do you feel begrudging about it? The old adage of not looking a gift horse in the mouth springs to mind. You want to keep renting, fine, do that, but don't expect the sos to house you in Ranelagh just because you're a snob, and let's face it, that's how you come across.

No one needs help in buying because no one has to buy per se. There is an alternative and people who are in a position to buy under the affordable schemes are generally in a position to pay rent also.

The problem for me is that I don't see this as a gift horse because it limits you to certain areas/developments, in the same way as the FTB grant did ten years ago - you had to buy a new property. There are conditions attached and to be honest, I suspect that if stamp duty clawback discussion are anything to go by, a long with discussions about management companies and agencies and the difference therebetween, quite a lot of people will sign up without being totally on top of the ramifications. I consider that to be a bad thing.

Calina

Kingsize wrote:

I agree Nipplenuts & Cantab should also Also bear in mind that although you are Happy where you are Your landlord can kick you out with a minimum of notice /or tell you tomorrow that he / she is gonna Put your rent up by 100% & theres nothing you can do.

Kingsize, this is where you are wrong.

1) rent can only be raised on one occasion during the year, and only in line with market conditions. If rent is going up by 100% then this country is screwed because it indicates hyperinflation.

2) the minimum amount of notice is variable. Most people will be on a fixed term lease which can't be broken without an immense amount of hassle. For anyone else, if they are in the property longer than 6 months, they are entitled to stay there for up to 4 years and specific notice periods apply. I think the max is 56 days.

There is, in fact, something which can be done. Complaints can be made to the PRTB. In 80% of cases last year, the tenant won the case.

Cantab.

nipplenuts wrote:

The thing is, if you need help buying, and are offered it, why do you feel begrudging about it? The old adage of not looking a gift horse in the mouth springs to mind. You want to keep renting, fine, do that, but don't expect the sos to house you in Ranelagh just because you're a snob, and let's face it, that's how you come across.

Is that the best you can do? You've just attempted to set up a straw man argument. I'll refute your claim anyway: Is it just because I choose to live near my work in Ranelagh, I am now a snob all of a sudden?

Besides all that spurious arguing, I don't want, nor have I ever wanted hand-me-outs from the government. Please read again the original post - this discussion is about affordable housing being dressed up as providing social need, when in fact it is a complex mask for the dodgy dealings between government and developers. As I said before, the local authorities should stick to waste disposal and road repairs.

Well at least we can agree on one thing - one would be waiting an awfully long time waiting for the sos to bail you out in Ranelagh. Hardly the most socially inclusive policy by way of the local authorities now is it? Leads to ghettoisation, no doubt? Nor do I believe that everyone is entitled to own a home. A roof over their heads, yes. After that, it should be down to meritocrity. Unfortunately in Ireland, the meritocrity has broken down - we have people on 60k who can't live near their workplace, who have families and are living in 2-bed apartments. This imbalance is temporary in my view, and all the interference in the market and taxation pressures will eventually give to the market fundamentals. In the mean time, it's sit back and wait, enjoy the cheap rent, the tiger feel-good factor (while it's still lasts), save and invest hard, continually up-skill, and prepare to remove oneself from a clapped-out economy built out of nothing but buying and selling houses to one another.

Calina

Cantab. wrote:

After that, it should be down to meritocrity. Unfortunately in Ireland, the meritocrity has broken down - we have people on 60k who can't live near their workplace, who have families and are living in 2-bed apartments.

Yes well that would be you out then because, you know, when I rule the world, houses will only go to those people who do actually know how to spell meritocracy.

As a side note, one of the primary issues I have with governance in Ireland is that much of it is overly centralised, decisions are made at Dail level and implemented at local authority level. This leaves local authorities with little in the way of autonomy, and of course, there are major issues with funding which is why they were happy with the loophole that allowed them to charge developers money rather than force them to turn 20% of their output over to affordable in the past four or five years.

You may see that as a good thing - depower the local authorities still further. I say it's what has us in this mess in the first place, but that's based on the fact that I've actually lived in five other countries besides this one and while I'd venture to say the economy is heading for a tough time - as all economies reach once in a while, it is not totally clapped out.

The point I would also make is that it is the attachment to judging individuals by their financial success has led to the distortion in the property market here - only those who could afford it have bought into it, and it is they, as market participants, who have driven the market into the mess that it is in. Meritocracy as a system only works for people with money. As a system for building communities and society, it sucks, if only because it creates a culture of envy which is at the root of a lot of social problems.

Mr. Presentable

Cantab. wrote:

Is that the best you can do? You've just attempted to set up a straw man argument. I'll refute your claim anyway: Is it just because I choose to live near my work in Ranelagh, I am now a snob all of a sudden?

No, but because you regard the places you mention in your post derisively and as beneath you.

Mr. Presentable

Cantab. wrote:

After that, it should be down to meritocrity. Unfortunately in Ireland, the meritocrity has broken down - .

OK, you're going to have to help me here. I've looked it up, but can't find it.

What is meritocrity?

edit: OK, it's a typo. Meritocracy, eh. But that still works. Admittedly it's very selective, but if you work hard and are worthy within the system then you can have what you want, pretty much.

SkepticOne

Fair play to those that get offered an "affordable house" and are happy with it. However, from a social point of view, there are a number of problems:

1. Only a very narrow section of society gets to benefit from these affordable homes. You need to be below a certain income to qualify, which is fair enough, but you also need to be above a certain n income to qualify for the mortgage. Because of the way it is structured, people on middle-incomes are being subsidised by those on low incomes to purchase property.

2. Only by comparison with today's grossly overvalued property prices can houses sold under these schemes be considered 'affordable'. Just a couple of years ago, the prices being paid today for an 'affordable' home would have bough an ordinary one.

3. It does nothing to solve the general overvalueation of property. In fact, by pumping money into the market, it contributes to general house price inflation.

It is a bit annoying that when the market is on the verge of deflating naturally, the government is stepping in and purchasing unsold units in developments and hoarded land.

antoinolachtnai

If what has been said above about the affordable housing damaging the market for FTB houses, then surely it must mean that affordable housing is reducing prices for everyone, not just those who qualify?

I don't know if it's true that a 'very narrow section of society gets to benefit'. I think the bands cover a very large proportion of people under 30 today.

Mailman

antoinolachtnai wrote:

If what has been said above about the affordable housing damaging the market for FTB houses, then surely it must mean that affordable housing is reducing prices for everyone, not just those who qualify?

I don't know if it's true that a 'very narrow section of society gets to benefit'. I think the bands cover a very large proportion of people under 30 today.

You'd think so, wouldn't you.
Really it's just distorting the market more than anything else, incentivising people to purchase less than ideal houses and leaving sellers of second-hand homes that you can raise a family in with a smaller market to sell too.
A lot of the stuff being sold as affordable housing are apartments with management fees attached in undesirable area.
The second-hand seller is already at a dis-advantage to the developer because of stamp duty.

People are buying these houses on mortgages which commit them to a property that won't grow to fit their needs in years to come i.e. settle down and have some kids.
They'll need to sell the apartments on some time soon but when they do they'll be looking at high transaction costs, claw backs and stamp duty as a non-first time buyer to buy the 3 bed home they should have bought in the first place.

Only advice I can give to people looking to use the affordable housing scheme is think ahead and ensure that the house will meet your needs in ten years time which means for most people avoid apartments.

antoinolachtnai

What is wrong with apartment living? I can't see anything in principle wrong with a management fee.

What is really wrong with these areas? There are lovely, hard-working people living in all the areas mentioned. Granted, they might not suit everyone.

Surely it would be better if the people in these second-hand homes, who now want to trade up and have already benefited from capital gains had taken your advice?

Everybody has to put up with being in a less than ideal home. Obviously, it would be better if all the housing stock in Dublin was higher-spec, but it isn't.

It is worth pointing out that the government is also subsidizing and distorting the rental market. Do you think that should stop too, or is it ok? Also, do you think the mortgage allowance for FTBs should go?

Sponge Bob

antoinolachtnai wrote:

What is wrong with apartment living? I can't see anything in principle wrong with a management fee.

neither can I if the system is not utterly rigged against the homeowner by a cartel of builder/management agent

What is really wrong with these areas?

how about LARGE taxi bills if you have any sort of social life

SkepticOne

antoinolachtnai wrote:

It is worth pointing out that the government is also subsidizing and distorting the rental market. Do you think that should stop too, or is it ok? Also, do you think the mortgage allowance for FTBs should go?

At least with rent subsidies there is some social need being catered to. With the affordable schemes it is primarily those on middle incomes that are benefitting. In order to qualify for a mortgage for one of these affordable homes you need to be on well above the industrial average wage.

Generally, subsidies for purchasing assets should be got rid of as all they do is push up the price. By pushing up the price they create the percieved need in the first place.

If the government announced that they were going to do away with all subsidies for buying property prices would quicky tumble. Of course, it is precisely for this reason that they will not do this! There are more vup the price they create the percieved need in the first place. There are more votes in high and rising property prices than tumbling ones despite what it is doing to the economy.

Calina

antoinolachtnai wrote:

What is wrong with apartment living? I can't see anything in principle wrong with a management fee.

The devil is in the detail, however. Management fee is fine, but many management companies are trading recklessly and there is a large amount of dissatisfaction with the standards of management agencies. Realistically that side of things needs to be regulated a bit better. Some education on the part of the apartment leaseholders wouldn't go astray either. It doesn't cause anywhere near the same problems in other countries, which manage even to have concierges in fairly basic apartment blocks, for example.

When I have estate agents unable to confirm the set up of management companies or the current management fees for an apartment in a complex then I am slightly unhappy and it happens just a little too often for my liking.

Calina

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Everybody has to put up with being in a less than ideal home. Obviously, it would be better if all the housing stock in Dublin was higher-spec, but it isn't.

It is worth pointing out that the government is also subsidizing and distorting the rental market. Do you think that should stop too, or is it ok? Also, do you think the mortgage allowance for FTBs should go?

Just on those two points: the fact that housing stock in Dublin isn't all that great is no reason not to demand a change there. My feeling based on looking at more than a few apartments is that they were built with profits for the developers in mind and not with any major utility value.

As for rent, I'd prefer that they didn't distort the rental market, but that they built social housing instead. But this country seems to be against that at the moment.

Supercell

antoinolachtnai wrote:

What is wrong with apartment living? I can't see anything in principle wrong with a management fee.

Nothing at all, as long as long as the apartments aren't shoddily built with poor noise insulation

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Everybody has to put up with being in a less than ideal home.

I hope you are joking!!, why the heck should someone on a decent salary want to live in a ****ty tiny box where they hear their neighbours fart or worse at night?

I'm living in a rented two bed house in a beautiful area for €700 per month which takes me 35 mins to drive to work in the southside of Dublin . If I wanted to buy something similar the mortgage payments would probably be around the €1200 minimum.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

It is worth pointing out that the government is also subsidizing and distorting the rental market. Do you think that should stop too, or is it ok? Also, do you think the mortgage allowance for FTBs should go?

I think the Government should butt the hell out of the housing market, no section tax break housing, no builders buddy so called offers (45-58k affordable housing...wtf!!! average income is around 40k ffs...how fúcking affordable is that??!!). If they really want to help the non higher earners..then build houses and offer them based on real lower incomes (read close to average income!!) and lower the damn stamp duty threshold to €200k or so..watch starter prices suddenly plummet...and houses suddenly actually become affordable to lower earners again.

What makes me want to weep is that the other idiot so called opposition party - FG, want to raise stamp duty threshold...FFS...what another gormless bunch of fúcking builders buddies tóssers.

We get the government we deserve I suppose, the yanks got Bush..we get corrupt builders buddies as governance.

Next election I'm going Green Party or Sinn Fein, at least they stand for something that's not bought out by brown envelopes and fúcking race tents for the rich and gormless at the Galway races..

ronbyrne2005

Calina wrote:

Yes well that would be you out then because, you know, when I rule the world, houses will only go to those people who do actually know how to spell meritocracy.

As a side note, one of the primary issues I have with governance in Ireland is that much of it is overly centralised, decisions are made at Dail level and implemented at local authority level. This leaves local authorities with little in the way of autonomy, and of course, there are major issues with funding which is why they were happy with the loophole that allowed them to charge developers money rather than force them to turn 20% of their output over to affordable in the past four or five years.

You may see that as a good thing - depower the local authorities still further. I say it's what has us in this mess in the first place, but that's based on the fact that I've actually lived in five other countries besides this one and while I'd venture to say the economy is heading for a tough time - as all economies reach once in a while, it is not totally clapped out.

The point I would also make is that it is the attachment to judging individuals by their financial success has led to the distortion in the property market here - only those who could afford it have bought into it, and it is they, as market participants, who have driven the market into the mess that it is in. Meritocracy as a system only works for people with money. As a system for building communities and society, it sucks, if only because it creates a culture of envy which is at the root of a lot of social problems.

What about those that can't spell disempower?

I agree a meritocracy does'nt mean those with biggest bank balance get to live in most desirable areas. If so our police officers, nurses, firemen, low paid artists and academics etc could'nt live where they work which is not ideal for society. In fact this house price mania has done more harm than good to society. In most countries these lower paid members of society have access to live near their work as housing is a much lower part of their living expenses.

Kingsize

Calina wrote:

Kingsize, this is where you are wrong.

1) rent can only be raised on one occasion during the year, and only in line with market conditions. If rent is going up by 100% then this country is screwed because it indicates hyperinflation.

2) the minimum amount of notice is variable. Most people will be on a fixed term lease which can't be broken without an immense amount of hassle. For anyone else, if they are in the property longer than 6 months, they are entitled to stay there for up to 4 years and specific notice periods apply. I think the max is 56 days.

There is, in fact, something which can be done. Complaints can be made to the PRTB. In 80% of cases last year, the tenant won the case.

In Theory but try walking to work from ranelagh with two broken legs,from my experiences landlords are C_unts & if they want you out they'll have you out one way or another up to & including setting fire to their own property.
Or What happens when you are given notice & suddenly you find that you can't find a decent place to rent That isn't twice the price of your current place.Also take on board that what i actually meant by this is that living on a knife edge not knowing where youre gonna be living next year is all well & good when you are young free & single & when all else fails move back to mummy & daddy but It's not always gonna be that way & not everyone has those ooptions.
Rent control would alleviate some of this but I've no doubt somebody would be gettin' a backhander there too.

For my money 80% of complaints won by tenants isn't good enough to warrant any kind of confidence in the system, especially when you consider large amounts of shi_TTy rental accommodation in Dublin is owned by landlords who aren't even registered as landlords with the PRTB.

antoinolachtnai

To butt out of the market, the government would need to do the following:

- get rid of rent relief for renters and buyers (resulting in house prices going down and rents going up)

- put stamp duty up to 9 percent across the board

- get rid of rent relief (making rents less affordable).

- get rid of the capital gains exemption on homes

- sell the state land bank to developers.

- cancel the Metro and Luas projects and end rail subsidies

I don't see how butting out would do anything other than cause instability.

Victor

Cantab. wrote:

Affordable Houses are crap

Quality wise, many will be better built as the local council will have been looking over the builder's shoulder.

SkepticOne

antoinolachtnai wrote:

To butt out of the market, the government would need to do the following:

- get rid of rent relief for renters and buyers (resulting in house prices going down and rents going up)

- put stamp duty up to 9 percent across the board

- get rid of rent relief (making rents less affordable).

- get rid of the capital gains exemption on homes

- sell the state land bank to developers.

- cancel the Metro and Luas projects and end rail subsidies

I don't see how butting out would do anything other than cause instability.

I think the government interfering in the market where socially necessary is OK, but general subsidies and allowances only force prices up. Rent relief for the most part goes into landlords pockets in the form of higher rents, imo.

If you want stability then the goal should be to burst the land and housing bubble as quickly as possible. Therefore the state should dump its land bank onto the market as quickly as possible. This would burst the bubble in land prices pretty fast.

Instead, they are buying up land from developers continuing the damage that is being done to the economy.

mentalson

CherieAmour wrote:

The income limit is €40,000 in the previous year for a single person or €100,000 for a joint application based on 2.5 times the main income plus the other income. I'd like to see how anyone earning that could afford to spend €350k plus on their own home.

At the end of the day, people need homes. This is a solution introduced by the government to rectify that.

I don't think that anyone here has any problem with affordable housing scheme housing. The problem is with the new pre election housing . This is being bought off developers on the open market at inflated prices and only those who earn at least €45,000 a year are eligible for consideration. Many people see this as subsidised housing for the well off while those on average or lower incomes are ignored

fintan

Cantab. wrote:

Ah yes, I see. Well you're hardly going to bite the hand that feeds you then, are you?

You say " Affordable houses are Crap"! and then imply there is something wrong with living in :
Hampton Wood, Finglas
Laburnam Cottage Apartments, Ashtown
Park West, Dublin 12
Priory Hall, Donaghmede
Prospect Hill, Finglas

I was making the point as someone who has actually been to all of these estates, that there is nothing wrong with them and that there is nothing wrong with these areas.

How many of the above areas have you been too? How many of the above houses have you seen?

Cantab. wrote:

This springs to mind:
http://www.neighbours.ie/belfry/showthread.php?t=147

Yes joy-riders are never a good thing, and I'm assuming you will personally vouch that a joy-rider has never driven through Ranelagh?

Cantab. wrote:

Yeah, they start pulling the finger out when the market is tanking and it looks like their buddies won't be making as much money out of their development of 50 apartments as they originally thought. The council should stick to providing emergency and council housing for the unemployed/needy, and stop dabbling in the mass conning of hard-working people.

I don't believe that is the aim of the housing scheme and its a sad reflection on politics in Ireland if what you believe is the common opinion.

Can you explain your following comment please?

Cantab. wrote:

the mass conning of hard-working people

Cantab. wrote:

The state should not using taxpayers' money to pay for peoples' houses en masse. This interference only skews an already unstable market even further.

I can be a little slow, can you explain how it has skewed the market?

Cantab. wrote:

That said, those unemployed single mothers and people from poor and uneducationaly disadvantaged backgrounds, should be given a leg up in the form of a free rented house/apartment.

I agree

Cantab. wrote:

There is no alternative to young families being provided by our leaders - because of the lack of legislation in the rental sector, those who wish to rent on a long-term basis can't.

So you feel there should be no affordable housing and the government should instead just upgrade the protection to long-term renters? You could have just said that at the very beginning

Cantab. wrote:

In fact, if such a couple picked up decent qualifications here in Ireland over the last few years (as they most probably have), they'd be better off emigrating to Australia (also, the weather is better there).

Yes property is much cheaper in Australia, however, you do need a visa to live there.

Cantab.

fintan wrote:

You say " Affordable houses are Crap"! and then imply there is something wrong with living in :
Hampton Wood, Finglas
Laburnam Cottage Apartments, Ashtown
Park West, Dublin 12
Priory Hall, Donaghmede
Prospect Hill, Finglas

I was making the point as someone who has actually been to all of these estates, that there is nothing wrong with them and that there is nothing wrong with these areas.

How many of the above areas have you been too? How many of the above houses have you seen?

So you have a Ph D in seeing more houses than anyone else. Wow. I have had the misfortune of visiting numerous apartment complexes in Dublin that have been recently built - my overall impression of the kind of buildings that have gone up in Dublin in the last 5 years would be a mixture of:
- unambitious, bland architecture
- cheap, low-cost, catalogue engineering materials
- poor noise insulation
- poor road and public transport
- unscrupulous management companies
- overall, the primary driver in the construction of a new aparment complex is that of maximising profits. To hell with whoever's going to live there. This attitude of developers will not last much longer as the manic frenzy disintegrates and there is so much choice available to a potential buyer.

fintan wrote:

Yes joy-riders are never a good thing, and I'm assuming you will personally vouch that a joy-rider has never driven through Ranelagh?

I don't believe that is the aim of the housing scheme and its a sad reflection on politics in Ireland if what you believe is the common opinion.

Can't say I've come across many in the 4 years I've been living here. Can't say I've come across many junkies, unruly teenagers playing music on street corners at night time, graffiti nor drug rehabilitation centres either. Had I children, I'd imagine (in fact it's statistically proven) they'd do pretty well in the local schools.

fintan wrote:

Can you explain your following comment please?

Well if it turns out that local councils are indeed buying up housing off nervous developers, then they are participating in the mass conning of hard-working people. I can only conclude that they are doing deals - and secret deals at that for hundreds of millions of euro. If the developers were so civicly minded, why aren't they selling their prize apartments on the open market where they'd achieve top dollar? The hard-working people that I speak of are being left to live in completely unsuitable accommodation and left to the mercy of private management companies.

fintan wrote:

I can be a little slow, can you explain how it has skewed the market?

How does affordable housing skew the market? Well - if the government are going to effectively cut the price of owning an apartment in two, you are obviously going to get a skew. The problem where I see it, is that the price of apartment is probably going to be cut in two anyway (supply and demand and the panic entering the Irish property market). The government are effectively prolonging the crash (a useful thing to do especially considering how close we are to election time), whilst at the same time off-loading risk of developers onto the Irish tax-payer. People on incomes of 40k-70k can well afford to have a decent standard of living, invest money and drive a nice car. They do not need to own a home to be wealthy. If they had an ounce of a brain (which they probably do seeing as someone wants to pay them 40k-70k), they'd hold-off, anticipate the storm and see through the smoke and mirrors that is the great scam of the affordable housing scheme (in which incidentally, there are no houses, just high profit-margin flats).

fintan wrote:

So you feel there should be no affordable housing and the government should instead just upgrade the protection to long-term renters? You could have just said that at the very beginning

There should be no affordable housing for those who can well afford to live a luxurious lifestyle. They do not need government hand-outs (nor does someone on 25k for that matter). And yes, there should be long-term rental protections. But this discussion is not about that, it's about dodgy dealings, poor-quality 'housing', and unnecessary government intervention in an already unstable market.

Indicedntally, what does someone on 25k do? They would not qualify for council housing, and they can't get an affordable home like their 42% taxpaying counterparts. It's just tough luck for them? They're not entitled to an enhancement in their personal wealth in the form of a government hand-out? Sure someone on 25k is probably too busy working to worry about such worldly matters (and probably won't vote either).

fintan wrote:

Yes property is much cheaper in Australia, however, you do need a visa to live there.

And if you had a degree in engineering, medicine, nursing, accounting (courtesy of the Irish government), you'd have no problem going there.

Sponge Bob

Mailman wrote:

I remember not too long ago when 58K was a good salary.

I remember not so long ago when €58k was £50k and would buy a decent semi with no pick a number and double it next year management charges crapola.

However I Do take it that the same government that bought these apartments for resale will ensure that only the highest standard of management company and management agent will be tolerated in these developments and that they have carried out a due diligence on same .

MiaMia

mentalson wrote:

I don't think that anyone here has any problem with affordable housing scheme housing. The problem is with the new pre election housing . This is being bought off developers on the open market at inflated prices and only those who earn at least €45,000 a year are eligible for consideration. Many people see this as subsidised housing for the well off while those on average or lower incomes are ignored

This is very true - couldn 't agree more.

Sleepy

CherieAmour wrote:

The income limit is €40,000 in the previous year for a single person or €100,000 for a joint application based on 2.5 times the main income plus the other income. I'd like to see how anyone earning that could afford to spend €350k plus on their own home.

At the end of the day, people need homes.

Why? Are there not plenty of rental properties on the market for these people?

I personally resent the suggestion that I should pay tax so that another member of society no worse off than me should be assisted to acquire a valuable asset that their salary doesn't permit them to afford. If you can't afford to buy a house, rent until you're earning enough to buy one. If that day never comes, it never comes. It's not society's job to ensure that everyone owns their own home.

Cantab.

Sleepy wrote:

Why? Are there not plenty of rental properties on the market for these people?

I personally resent the suggestion that I should pay tax so that another member of society no worse off than me should be assisted to acquire a valuable asset that their salary doesn't permit them to afford. If you can't afford to buy a house, rent until you're earning enough to buy one. If that day never comes, it never comes. It's not society's job to ensure that everyone owns their own home.

I don't own a home in Ireland, and I agree with you 100%. The market should be left alone and it will eventually move out of this transient period and settle to a steady-state.

The affordable housing scheme is running the risk of back-firing in the government's face. FTBs will see that the market is tanking and will hold off - "why buy now when prices are falling, especially in poor areas?" and middle-class home-owners will resent the fact that their tax money is being used to enhance the wealth of above-average earners. Not only that, if the secrecy surrounding the deals being done between local councils and developers is not explained, there will be wide-spread discontent amongst the electorate.

Sponge Bob

the government is trying to chase down another 5000 of these units during fiscal 2007 in Dublin Meath and Kildare or so I hear , there are none to be had in Wicklow despite its inclusion on the list.

MiaMia

Sleepy wrote:

Why? Are there not plenty of rental properties on the market for these people?

I am 36 years old - I have been house sharing for 18 years and have never had a lease longer than a year. I want a place that I can paint! buy my own furniture and call HOME! Rent has gone up 200% in the past ten years - but if I had been in a position to buy ten years ago then my mortgage repayments would have gone down by now.

I personally resent the suggestion that I should pay tax so that another member of society no worse off than me should be assisted to acquire a valuable asset that their salary doesn't permit them to afford.

I pay the top rate of tax and have been paying tax for 18 years. If you are on the same salary as me you are entitled to wait 3 years for the same valuable asset! Unless you stay longer than 10 years in an affordable home - you will not make any money on the deal.

If you can't afford to buy a house, rent until you're earning enough to buy one. If that day never comes, it never comes. It's not society's job to ensure that everyone owns their own home.

Housing is a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT.

Next you will say we should not provide schools for children and hospital care for the sick.

KingKenny7

Housing is a basic right, and thats something that most people in ireland cant afford.

I;m saving for a house at the mo, while I can easily afford the repayments, I;m just not going to justify the price of a house. It was the same with car insurance, 4k for a 21 year old was madness.

Will this government learn, that the back handers, and shoddy deals with builders is running this country. And if you think about it standard people cant purchase a house then its time for the government to step in.

This whole affordable house is a joke,certain people can get them, others are earning decent money and struggling. Why should the hard workers who want to make a life for themselves suffer???

Move to Oz is the only answer

jam_mac_jam

owning your own house is not a human right. Why can't you rent? These people are not homeless you know but are on quite a good wage.