Larionovo

italiano1

Hello Folks

I am in no hurry to send on the second deposit of 20%. I will probably send it on in Jan 2009 but I feel if I send it now it will just be held in G&L( giambrone & law) client bank account until Jan 2009 and as they are closed from to morrow 19th Dec and I would rather have the money in my bank account. Also I did get confirmation from G&L for receipt of the first deposit( it took me 3 months ) but I have to day also requested from VFI that they confirm and supply written confirmation of all deposits paid up to date.( this too will decide my payment of the 20% deposit )
As bad as G&L are with regard to correspondence with myself I do not know what sort of professional relationship they have with VFI or anybody else for that matter but as I have paid there fees I guess I am stuck with them and all monies I pay will go though them . I can of course change to different solicitors but that will just cost more money.
With regard to completion date of 28th Feb 2010 that in the contract I have but if you go to section 5.6 the vender can have a six month delay without paying penalties.

Descav

hi all,

i've been in contact today to Giambrone and Law and got some information out of them on a few matters.

Firstly they are saying that the development is well ahead of schedule and that it is likely t be finished by September/October 2009.

However it would not be necessary to pay until completion date in your contract if you so wish.

I have also looked at my contract and can see no reference to the 2nd payment date of December 31st. Giambrone told me that some people would have signed another document when booking the apartment and the date was stipulated in this.

However I dont remember signing such a document and Giambrone informed me that Larionovo who i bought it through did not state exact payment dates.

Anyway Brendan Dine(of Giambrone Law) said it would have no effect on the legitimacy of my bank bond if i did not pay by 31st December. I emailed him afterwards informing him of my intention to pay in the first half of January and i will inform VFI about this too.

Descav

hi Matt1,

Regarding point one on your action list below. This payment has been confirmed by the signing of the preliminary contract. Page 8 of contract art 3.3.

Action List

1. Get written confirmation from VFI / Builder that original fee paid to Larionovo was passed on to the builder
.

Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Matt1

Descav wrote: »

hi Matt1,

Regarding point one on your action list below. This payment has been confirmed by the signing of the preliminary contract. Page 8 of contract art 3.3.

Action List

1. Get written confirmation from VFI / Builder that original fee paid to Larionovo was passed on to the builder
.

Thanks.

[/quote]

Good stuff, I just looked the contract up and you are spot on.

Also noted that my contract has no reference to having to make a payment in December 2008. I am sure I spotted it elsewhere in docs but hopefully nothing that I signed.

Each time I read contract I spot more and more that favours the "vendor"!

As previously mentioned in this thread I think teaming up is a good plan, particularly for when we have to head out to sign off the completion / final payment in approx 14 months time.

sajidsarwar

lalique wrote: »

Of course you should make them,
Just some of the posters on here who are obviouse Trolls are posting complete rubbish.

I have direct communication with Ian the liquidator as well as others and things are moving forward. I also have a couple of aces up my sleeve.

So we have a good case of getting it back.
Karen

Karen
Would like to join the investor group. Can you please add me

Jim Drumboe

JamesIRL wrote: »

Would it be a good idea to arrange a meeting between ourselves?(the Irish investors) Safety in numbers and all that.

BORGONOVO:
I am purchasing an apartment in Borgonovo and have paid 50% of net price through my solicitors.
I am satisfied that the Larionovo situation is irrelevant at this stage. In fairness to Larionovo they passed on my booking deposit and the administration fee of €750 to my solicitors, and this amount - €3,750 - made up part of the 50% payment.
I am satisfied from the web blog sent to me by VFI - http://vfi-overseas-property.blogspot.com/
that the development is well under way and that the payment is justifiable. It would not be a good idea for investors to leave the developer/builder without funds at this stage.

I engaged Irish solicitors: Tom McGrath & Associates, 37 Mount St. D2, and they in turn engaged their associates in Italy - Studio Legale Meta in Bari. My solicitors have carried out extensive searches to establish that Azzurra S.r.l are builders based in Pizzo who own the land and have planning permission and building licence. VFI are only selling agents for this development. Azzurra are a company in good standing. My solicitors did not request any payment from me until they were satisfied with all of their legal searches - and this took some time. Consequently, I did not pay over the 30% but made the 50% payment (less €3,750) on signing the preliminary contract in October. I paid the money by bank transfer to my Italian solicitors in Bari. They have undertaken to pay this money, in two sums, directly to Azzurra and VFI when they receive the insurance and bank bond. The contract requires me to pay the balance and for Azzurra to hand over the apartment by 28/02/10, otherwise the vendor must pay me €300 per month as a penalty.

I am very impressed with the legal services of my Italian solicitors and note that people using Giambrone & Law are not so happy. I would be glad to meet other investors, or to exchange information by phone or e-mail and I offer my phone no. to anyone who wants to call: 087 2324216.

Jim Drumboe

Some further thoughts. If you have signed a contract and the vendor has also signed this contract then there exists a legal agreement. The agreement is for the vendor to sell and for you to buy. The agreement describes the property and sets out the conditions of the transaction.
In my case the purchase price is stated in article 3.1. A payment schedule is described in 3.2. The booking deposit is acknowledged in 3.3. A payment of 50% (less booking deposit) is stated in 3.4, and required to be paid on signing this contract. The balance (50%) plus vat on the total price is stated in 3.5 to be paid on completion. Completion is defined in 5.4 as 28/02/2010.
So, I am in no doubt as to the amounts payable by me, and on what dates. In your case, if you paid 30% on signing the contract you should have received a copy signed by the vendor. I believe you are legally bound to comply with the conditions of this signed contract - but no more. So if you check your contract under the above articles you should be clear about what your legal obligations are.
I think it would be a good idea to have a meeting with a few of the Irish investors. How could we get a list of names?

Ductape

I recently transferred my payment through G&L in Italy.
A few things we want to keep an eye on based on that letter they sent:
1) There is still a gray area of language in the letter concerning what our bank guarantee covers.
Under "Larinovo Clients Only" there is language that states, "...you are not in danger of losing your property or deposit as long as the developer of the Italian scheme remains solvent..."
This is very concerning as it is a potential legal loop hole by which our guarantee is no longer valid. I severely hope they are not setting the stage for such an occurrence / scheme.

2) We paid our initial deposit through Larinovo. That 3k (an any other Larinovo depositer) is now under investigation. I'm not sure of our liabilities (i.e. will we have to pay again to cover that cost with the builder or what).

3) If you notice in the letter it mentions that there could be some complex legal issues if the releationship with Larinovo is considered a joint venture. This is concerning because it means that the builder may have to pay into the Larinovo bankruptsy based on any money they may have owed. This affects everyone dependent on (and investing in) the builder because if they have to pay a large sum back to the Larinovo it could adversly affect their cashflow and ability to stay solvent, thus enacting our issue in #1 above.

4) In addition to the standard legal fees for each transaction (that 1% or 1500euro) G&L mentions all the additional fees due to the Larinovo debacle. While they mention it would be spread across all of the investors, I don't believe we have a mechanism in place to audit an itemized list of fees. This is a concern as they have already proven to be be unprofessional and non-communicative.

lalique

Hi

I would personally check the Larionovo website as it has lots of advice and contact numbers on for various developments, failing that why not drop the liquidator an e-mail expressing your concerns and see if they can throw any light on things.

Jim Drumboe

I don't have any letter from G & L so I can't comment, only to say that they seem to be raising unecessary concerns. Larionovo is completely out of the picture.
I have engaged both an Irish and an Italian solicitor - which is the expensive route. My Italian solicitors have confirmed that my €3,750 is safe and have included reciept of this in the preliminary contract to be signed by the Vendor. Also, the 50% deposit will not be paid to the Vendor until he produces the insurance. The insurance guarantees that "should the Owner be involved in a bankruptcy or recervership procedure or should the property be under a mortgage on completion date, (we) would get full refund of all the money paid as deposit. The Vendor will pay for said guarantee."
I can't see how the Owner [Builder] could owe money to Larionovo, whatever about the other way around.
What about this idea of a meeting where we could compare documentation?

Descav

Hi all again,

Okay so how are we all going to meet up and organise.

If anyone wants to meet up or has already organised a meeting please call me. I have been in touch with couple investors already and see if a meeting is possible. i'm not sure where everyone is based. I'm looking to go to Italy in a week or two so it would be good to meet up before then.

If anyone else is based in Dublin especially; Jim Drumboe,ductape,Maximus1,Italiano1 or Matt1 we should be able to meet in person easily enough.

If you all contact me, i'll be happy to organise with everyone a meeting time and place.

Cheers

Matt1

lalique wrote: »

Hi

I would personally check the Larionovo website as it has lots of advice and contact numbers on for various developments, failing that why not drop the liquidator an e-mail expressing your concerns and see if they can throw any light on things.

For info I was in touch with liquidator before Christmas and they informed me that they were not dealilng with the Borgonovo investors. I am fairly sure that this was because (as per another post) Larionovo were completely out of the process in Borgonovo and all ties were cut. Any queries were to be directed to either Giambrone and Law or VFI.

Descav

Hi All,

I have been in touch with a few other investors and am now arranging for anyone interested to meet up and share thoughts and documentation received from the different parties involved.

Investors are from all around Ireland so I'm thinking the Dublin Airport Bewleys hotel as a venue. Perhaps thursday evening or Lunchtime saturday. Any other suggestions welcome.

I am also flying out to visit the site on Saturday 17th and have arranged a meeting with VFI and the builder. So it would be good if we could meet up before I leave and update everyone when i return.

If you can meet up please let me know when suits and i'll make a definite arrangement.
If you could give me your email addresses and contact number that'd be great also.



Regards,

Des

dny123456

I wouldn't put my mobile number up on a public forum if I were you. Getting people to PM for it, would be safer for you.

Matt1

Well done Descav on pushing ahead with the investor meeting. Dependent on access to car (i.e. herself not working) I should be able to make either date. Just a thought... would airport be easier venue rather than Bewleys Hotel? Bewleys is possibly more complicated to get to if relying on Public Transport. i.e. its not at the airport.

How long are you heading to Pizzo for? What route are you taking? I don't think there are currently any direct flights to Lamezia..?

Descav

Ductape wrote: »

I recently transferred my payment through G&L in Italy.
A few things we want to keep an eye on based on that letter they sent:
1) There is still a gray area of language in the letter concerning what our bank guarantee covers.
Under "Larinovo Clients Only" there is language that states, "...you are not in danger of losing your property or deposit as long as the developer of the Italian scheme remains solvent..."
This is very concerning as it is a potential legal loop hole by which our guarantee is no longer valid. I severely hope they are not setting the stage for such an occurrence / scheme.

2) We paid our initial deposit through Larinovo. That 3k (an any other Larinovo depositer) is now under investigation. I'm not sure of our liabilities (i.e. will we have to pay again to cover that cost with the builder or what).

3) If you notice in the letter it mentions that there could be some complex legal issues if the releationship with Larinovo is considered a joint venture. This is concerning because it means that the builder may have to pay into the Larinovo bankruptsy based on any money they may have owed. This affects everyone dependent on (and investing in) the builder because if they have to pay a large sum back to the Larinovo it could adversly affect their cashflow and ability to stay solvent, thus enacting our issue in #1 above.

4) In addition to the standard legal fees for each transaction (that 1% or 1500euro) G&L mentions all the additional fees due to the Larinovo debacle. While they mention it would be spread across all of the investors, I don't believe we have a mechanism in place to audit an itemized list of fees. This is a concern as they have already proven to be be unprofessional and non-communicative.

Hi Ductape,

Did Giambrone send you the letter you are referring to above? I never received any correspondance from them referring to such potential issues.
In relation to the bank guarantee i have been told that its whole purpose IS to protects us from the liquidation of the builder.
Would it be possible for you to private message me and we can discuss further.

Thanks
descav

Descav

Hi all,

A number of investors in Borgonovo will be meeting in the Gresham hotel on Thursday 15th January at between 6 and 6.30 pm.

Please come along if available.

Daithi McGee

Between job losses, companies folding and peoples investments going sour this country is really losing its bollix.



Best of luck with the campaign all.

jodaw

Seriously ... People investing in these kind of crackpot scams really need to get their heads screwed on correct ...

The "Indian Tiger" ...

This country has been consumed by greed during this property bubble ...

Paying desposits into these schemes/scams does not guarantee anyone 100% safety ... If you want safety put it in the bank ... Oh ... Actually that wont work either ...

I for one will be glad to see the back of these Property Exhibitions in Ireland. Only a very small amount of people making money from these scams ...

And i do have pity for those poor unforunates holding on to Sunny Beach penthouses ... worth zilch

Ireland needs to get back to reality ...

That means

100K 3 bed semis
70K Appartments

... and unless you win the lotto, steer clear of the Next Big Thing !!!

Rant over

ukdavros

Some people on here just havnt gone a clue what they are tallking about
We have already had one post by the usual Troll on here removed.

This was not a crackpot invesment, the property over in India is still going up and if it was an option to continue the purchase we would have done.

Scam, maybe, but the scam was from an Irish company, who took peoples deposits and didnt return them.

Yes some people who invested were new to the property game, but we are not, we have a number of Properties all over including UK and Poland. They are also doing very well thankyou.

Property will always go up.

There is never a bad time to buy property, but it is not always a good time to sell property. Also depends a lot on your stategy.

Nothing in life guarantees safety any body that thinks it there is is a fool.
Yes it was a risk, but you are missing the point. You dont expect the risk to come from the agent.

They are not usually scams and A lot of people are making money from them.

I can assure most people dont need your pity, as they will bounce back. A lot of property people do know what they are doing. We do our research and our DD.

We are still buying property, we have only had this one go bad.

So thanks for the Rant and keeping the thread Alive, but I dont think a lot of people will be taking much notice of your comments.

K-9

ukdavros wrote: »

Property will always go up.

There is never a bad time to buy property, but it is not always a good time to sell property. Also depends a lot on your stategy.

Nothing in life guarantees safety any body that thinks it there is is a fool.
Yes it was a risk, but you are missing the point. You dont expect the risk to come from the agent.

I hope everything goes well for everybody.

But I would have to point out Property does not always go up and there is bad times to buy property.

ukdavros

Over time Property does always go up.
If you look back as far as your like the general trend for property is up.
Yes you get corrections and yes you get dips.

People in the UK in the last crash, lost a lot of money. People sold when they could. People sold when they whent back up enough to break even. All are kicking themselves, Because not only did they recover, they doubled again. All they had to do is hang on in there.

The shorter term you hope to make a proffit the more risky it is and the more homework you have to do.

All mine have positive equity and I have been buying over the last 10 years.

They are not making anymore land (unless you are in Saudi) People will always need houses, somewhere to live, Population in general is increasing.

So long term property will always go up, like I said depends on your strategy, whether you ever intend to sell or not etc.

The_Conductor

ukdavros wrote: »

Over time Property does always go up.
If you look back as far as your like the general trend for property is up.
Yes you get corrections and yes you get dips.

I've done discounted tables for numerous different asset classes over the past 150 years and I beg to differ. Over time property may go up- if you buy it at a reasonable price, but its by no means a foregone conclusion. Discount Tables (you'll find them at the back of any good biometrics manual)- factor inflation and other factors into a set monetary value and allow you to price future and past values into today's currency. Certain asset types- such as forestry, can show a historic trend of asset price appreciation in real terms (which is why pension funds are so happy to invest in them). Long term models for land and other property assets- do not show a similar trend. You can get lucky- but prudent financial management should be more than pissing in the wind and hoping for the best.

ukdavros

Maybe we are just very good or very lucky then and so are a lot of people in property that we know.

I just love Finance experts, they make me laugh

I can assure you we are not pissing in the wind

The_Conductor

ukdavros wrote: »

Maybe we are just very good or very lucky then and so are a lot of people in property that we know.

I just love Finance experts, they make me laugh

A lot of people were indeed very very lucky- for literally years. A lot of people are now looking to be bailed out by the government- or along the lines of First Active- have their loans reduced to 35-40cent in the Euro.

I don't claim to be a property expert- I do have a major in applied statistics, and did have to include a whole section of my thesis on asset price models. I do own property- and indeed I will both buy and sell in the future. I'm not in it for the finances- there are other factors than paper gains or losses. Having a nice house with a garden where I can be happy with my wife is something I put a higher price on than some other factors. How do you measure a factor such as happiness?

jodaw

ukdavros wrote: »

Over time Property does always go up.
If you look back as far as your like the general trend for property is up.
Yes you get corrections and yes you get dips.

Tell this to the Anglo Irish Bank shareholders at 17 euros per shares. The stock market also has a general uptrend. But that does not mean that people who do not know exactly what they are investing do not get smashed to pieces...

Do not invest in a local market half way across the world unless you know the exact market conditions and ins and out of the market. I would imagine the most of these speculators not investor have never even been to India...

I am not a troll and i speak from the heart when i say it sickens me the level of greed that has emerged from our dead celtic tiger. Sink or Swim from here forward, either way, we will all learns lessons from the next few years ...

No investment is safe ...

Anglo Irish Shareholders have lost pretty much all there investment because of a corrupt and greasy fingered Chief Executive. So i have no sympathy for people investing in crackpot schmemes half a work away !!!

And the whole thing with prices increasing? Because who says so? The developers ? Would it be phase two by any chance? And of course as we all know prices increase 20% YOY from phase 1 ? LOL

What about your resale target market? Locals? Or greater fools from Western European countries?

Seriously people ... get real

jodaw

Oh and PS UKDavros ...

For me ... You are all not better than the developers that have taken the property market in Ireland away from families over the last decade !!!

You and going into a local market and artifically inflating prices away from locals for your own personal gain ...

Not for me ... sorry !!!

People need to get back to seeing houses and homes ... and not simply as a money making vehicle ...

Seriously? Do you think the best place we can go to in Ireland from here is back to level again and the double the price? So that would put the standard 3Bed semi at 750K ?

High house prices are not good for anyone but greedy developers ...

You want to invest? Invest in a business with sound fundamentals ... this adds to our society, but all i can see from these crazy speculation opportunities are peoples judgements being clouded by Euro signs

Abraham

This debate has gone stale over the past week or so. These latest contributions today (16June09) are a welcome continuation of the real issue, i.e. people have innocently and/or foolishly got caught up in this property derailment thing and were trying to grapple with the problems resulting with a view to devising a solution and hopefully recovering their investment.

Unfortunately some who are not involved treat it as a spectator sport but we will survive nevertheless. Dogs must bark, etc.

Things, times, attitudes, circumstances , people, all change over time.
Ukdavros......I would have laughed at you contribution a few years ago but not now because I bought into the situation of a foreign property investment via Larionovo in Dubai of my own volition and it has proved to be an unhappy experience. I'm not blaming anyone bar myself for the situation at this end. It's a hell of an expensive lesson to have learned but hopefully there will be at least a partial recovery of funds.

What about 3 C-H-E-E-R-S for Karen on the Larionovo item after her stellar performance on RTE TV News yesterday. A New Star is Born....eh ?

K-9

Abraham wrote: »

This debate has gone stale over the past week or so. These latest contributions today (16June09) are a welcome continuation of the real issue, i.e. people have innocently and/or foolishly got caught up in this property derailment thing and were trying to grapple with the problems resulting with a view to devising a solution and hopefully recovering their investment.

Unfortunately some who are not involved treat it as a spectator sport but we will survive nevertheless. Dogs must bark, etc.

Things, times, attitudes, circumstances , people, all change over time.
Ukdavros......I would have laughed at you contribution a few years ago but not now because I bought into the situation of a foreign property investment via Larionovo in Dubai of my own volition and it has proved to be an unhappy experience. I'm not blaming anyone bar myself for the situation at this end. It's a hell of an expensive lesson to have learned but hopefully there will be at least a partial recovery of funds.

What about 3 C-H-E-E-R-S for Karen on the Larionovo item after her stellar performance on RTE TV News yesterday. A New Star is Born....eh ?

Good post. I wish you all the best.

A lot of innocent people got caught, not just greedy vultures.

jodaw

Just to be clear ...

I have sympathy for people who have innocently lost money on this venture, but it is there thinking in the first place that i cannot understand ...

I wish you all luck in retrieving the monies, but i would imagine that you have as much right as any other creditor of the company ...

My disgust is mostly directed at the environment that allowed these property exhibitions operate. Come look what i have here, I will make you rich !!!

Whats sounds too good to be true in all that ...

Just as a side question to people investing in India. Do you imagine that you will proceed to invest in Inida through another company?