$9,000 pot - Is there anything I can do different??

RacingSilver

Pre-flop call - bad.
Flop call - worse.
Turn bet - fine.

Flipper, you can't be lucky all the time.
What about your recent tournie hand where you went all-in with AT on a T,4,3 board, and had 2 callers - one with 3,4 and the other with 4,4.
And you won the hand !

Ste05

RacingSilver wrote:

Flipper, you can't be lucky all the time.
What about your recent tournie hand where you went all-in with AT on a T,4,3 board, and had 2 callers - one with 3,4 and the other with 4,4.
And you won the hand !

:eek: OMG! How?
Running 10's? Running A's? or Running 2, 5? My guess would be the last one...

RacingSilver

Yup - Running 2,5.
Bad call by his 2 opponents though - they should have known their place.

Flipper

lol ya that was soooo sick. there was 7k in the middle and I had 14k in front of me. I pushed with 2 players left to act with AT on a 34T board. Both players called (i cover one) with 44 and 34!!!! Turn 5, River 2. BOOM! An unhappy German gentleman left rather quickly. As Roy said, "if he wasn't smiling before, he definatly isn't now!!" Sickest beat I've given in a long time. On the other hand, I received two similiar ones that day too...

Hectorjelly

Flipper wrote:

HJ, I'm 55/45 favourite on the turn (check it if you don't believe me). By betting the turn, I give myself 2 chances to win the pot - I can take it down right there or put it all in against a set and outdraw if the villian wishes.

This is the turning point in the hand - and where an argument can be made for me making a mistake.

I think checking the turn would be a big mistake, as I said earlier.

ianmc38

Flipper wrote:

lol ya that was soooo sick. there was 7k in the middle and I had 14k in front of me. I pushed with 2 players left to act with AT on a 34T board. Both players called (i cover one) with 44 and 34!!!! Turn 5, River 2. BOOM! An unhappy German gentleman left rather quickly. As Roy said, "if he wasn't smiling before, he definatly isn't now!!" Sickest beat I've given in a long time. On the other hand, I received two similiar ones that day too...

Why did you push 14k into a 7k pot?

Flipper

Because I thought there was a good chance I was winning on that flop. TT and 44 were the only hands that would have been in the unraised pot (a fairly uncommon thing at our table) that were destroying my hand. Also, there were two spades on the board so I wanted to finish the pot right there. AA/KK/QQ/JJ would have all raised pre-flop. What else can I be up against that can call for their stack? Not much point in betting 5k-7k and then folding. I'm not hanging around in tourneys to survive; I'm there to accumulate a stack as early as possible. As it happened, I did that and then Fintan dogged my KK with A9 (K on the flop BTW as well) for a 140k pot when the avg was 70k to put me out in 16th! I deserve it thou for that sick, sick runner runner!

MrPillowTalk

Flipper wrote:

I'm not hanging around in tourneys to survive; I'm there to accumulate a stack as early as possible.

I talked to you about this at the weekend but you have to realise this is the wrong attitude to have, you got yourself knocked out in the main event and in a terrible spot in this tourney needing to hit runner runner to survive when there was no need.

The "I want to accumulate a stack" approach is fine so long as that means you look to take a big race early or play a big draw very aggresively, however it doesnt mean pushing all in on a huge overbet in a spot where you only ever get called if your beaten like a redhaired stepchild. Your exit hand in the main event was a similar car crash, you seem to be thinking a bit if in doubt push.

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think checking the turn would be a big mistake, as I said earlier.

Why do you think its a big mistake?
I dont mind betting and I dont mind checking. I doubt its a big mistake to check behind, given that our hand kinda looks like what it is, and that he *should* have a hand he likes given the flop pot into the field. The 2 changes nothing from his perspective, but if he has top two or a set or even AA with nut flush draw, then he can CRAI and get the money in now, rather than pot the turn, and get called with 2k still in the tank for a lot of rivers that he may not like.

Flipper - I know that you are 55/45 against this *particular* hand, but I doubt you are 55/45 fave against his range.

Once again, however, if he often pots the flop into a field oop and then check/folds the turn, then betting is prolly the best option.

PS - I really think that preflop is bad and the flop call is really the worst part of the hand, and ended up causing the ultimate loss of 4.5k.

cardshark202

I'm pretty sure halibut will fire with a wide enough range on the flop to make the call profitable, assuming you increase your bluffing frequency on the turn. The most questionable part for me is preflop but I don't mind it too much.

Hectorjelly

What do you think his equity is against halibuts range? If its anything close to 50 then I think you have to bet, I agree that if its less than 40 checking is probably better but at around 50 it has to be worth a bet as we can only gain if we bet.

fuzzbox

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I pot the turn in practice, and it cant really be that bad cos the draw is so big.

RoundTower

I play the same way on all streets but I can understand anyone who wanted to play it different. They only advice I really agree with is to avoid halibut.

Chucky the tree

Only a novice at the poker, so might seem a stupid question.

But why not check on the turn?

DapperGent

Chucky the tree wrote:

Only a novice at the poker, so might seem a stupid question.

But why not check on the turn?

At this point in the hand Flipper has a huge draw but like eight high so he is currently behind nearly 100% of the time. If his opponent has a set (and no blockers) Flipper will win about half the time, if his opponent has bare AA Flipper will again win about half the time. So if Flipper bets the turn he will get all in with about 50% chance of winning if his opponent has a set and he will win $1500 without a showdown if his opponent has something like bare AA.

Basically it's profitable to bet to try and take it down as he's in pretty similar shape against the current nuts as he is against a hand that will insta fold. That being that we're correct in thinking the opponent in this hand can be continuation betting with AA or something similar a fairly large amount of the time.

Personally I don't think a winning player is going to cont bet into three callers with bare AA or a pure bluff very often. A good player leading this flop into 3 callers after raising pre looks very strong to me. Therefore I reckon checking behind on the turn and playing a smaller pot is better. Having said that I don't think you're ever making a huge mistake by getting it in with such a huge draw as your opponent needs a very specific hand to have you completely boned.

Phil-Dublin

Flipper
plase understand that i have the highest respect for you as a person and as a player, actually i have played at your table, and i do mean your table, coz you were the man at it, and i have seen you play and outplay more people with that generous banter and jovial demeanour that sets people at ease despite being in the presence of pure poker genius.
still think that i am of the impression that you are anything like stupid, hell no, "you are the 1" in my book. i will let you know who i am when i next meet you in person.
in the meantime, let me say this as the only advice i could possibly offer a man of your immense skill, and i mean this, AVOID THAT MAN HALLIBUT
every once in a while a player comes along that for some unknown and bizzare reason, keeps taking your chips, there is no logical or theoretical or even mathemathical logarithim to make head nor tail of it, its just a fact of life and you should AVOID HALLIBUT like some kind of disease or foul smelling rancid rotten corpse, unless you have the absolute nuts after the river card has been displayed, then and only then should you consider making any kind of play against that man.
personally, there is a woman that had been taking chips off me for years, so much so, that i started to hate her, even though she is a very nice person, i started calling her every bet, trying to beat the jinx that she had on me,

now i am not a stupid person either, so i wised up and started only calling her bets with super dooper hands and nuts betting into after the river, that was my only chance, by the way she still has me jinxed and i still hate her.

what else could you have done, probably nothing is the real answer, all these masters of the game offering you, the one, the true 1, advice is laughable.

dont listen to them Flipper, as you know this is a crazy mixed up world we move in, this poker world of outdraws / suckouts and bad, no horrible beats, but remember this when you are feeling low after such a hammering,
i cried because i had no shoes, until i saw a man with no feet.
next time you call me awsome, i will let you know who

Phil-Dublin

in case you missed the point

here it is again

AVOID HALLIBUT

you may call a bet only when ahead so much that he needs to go Runner Runner Runner, yes 3

Hectorjelly

Chucky the tree wrote:

Only a novice at the poker, so might seem a stupid question.

But why not check on the turn?

this has already been explained, because flippers draws are so big he will win the pot half the time at a showdown, however the other half he will end up definitely losing. If you knew you were going to get all in on the turn you dont lose or gain any equity, but sometimes he will fold which is great. So betting here is mandatory.

This would be very different if he had a merely good draw with 40% Equity or less, as because you lose equity on all the money that goes in on the turn. So for holdem hands if theres a good chance of being chk raised in situations like this checking is nearly always better.

Hectorjelly

Phil-Dublin wrote:

what else could you have done, probably nothing is the real answer, all these masters of the game offering you, the one, the true 1, advice is laughable.

end of thread I suppose, cheers for the heads up phil!

Killme00

Flipper wrote:

[Jan 10 23:24:15] : Seat 4 : RU$TY has 6d 8d 3h 4h
[Jan 10 23:24:33] : RU$TY called $100:(

Why did you call the preflop raise...you know you cant get a straight flush every time and paid off by the nuts flush every time dont you!!

Flipper wrote:

[Jan 10 23:24:41] : Board cards [7c 5d Jh]
[Jan 10 23:25:03] : RU$TY has 10 seconds to respond
[Jan 10 23:25:07] : RU$TY called $500.:(

Are you thinking off raising or folding..what is halibuts range like..if you put him on the high hand preflop i think i could justify a call here but only barely

Flipper wrote:

[Jan 10 23:25:21] : Board cards [7c 5d Jh 2d]
[Jan 10 23:25:30] : halibut2 checked.
[Jan 10 23:25:35] : RU$TY bet $1,500
[Jan 10 23:25:37] : halibut2 called $1,500 and raised $2,309.50 and is All-in.:(

He raised to 100 preflop and bet 500, you know whats coming here..i think i would take the free card here, simply because i think he would call the bet or reraise..do you really think your diamonds can be ahead..if you didnt have diamonds would you still be ahead here..this is why i check

Flipper wrote:

[Jan 10 23:25:21]
[Jan 10 23:25:42] : Seat 4 : RU$TY has 6d 8d 3h 4h
[Jan 10 23:25:44] : Seat 2 : halibut2 has 5s 9h 7s 7h
[Jan 10 23:25:49] : Board cards [7c 5d Jh 2d Kc]

Edit: The little at the end of each part is quite apt

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

RacingSilver

Originally Posted by Phil-Dublin
Flipper
plase understand that i have the highest respect for you as a person and as a player, actually i have played at your table, and i do mean your table, coz you were the man at it, and i have seen you play and outplay more people with that generous banter and jovial demeanour that sets people at ease despite being in the presence of pure poker genius.
still think that i am of the impression that you are anything like stupid, hell no, "you are the 1" in my book. i will let you know who i am when i next meet you in person.
in the meantime, let me say this as the only advice i could possibly offer a man of your immense skill, and i mean this, AVOID THAT MAN HALLIBUT
every once in a while a player comes along that for some unknown and bizzare reason, keeps taking your chips, there is no logical or theoretical or even mathemathical logarithim to make head nor tail of it, its just a fact of life and you should AVOID HALLIBUT like some kind of disease or foul smelling rancid rotten corpse, unless you have the absolute nuts after the river card has been displayed, then and only then should you consider making any kind of play against that man.
personally, there is a woman that had been taking chips off me for years, so much so, that i started to hate her, even though she is a very nice person, i started calling her every bet, trying to beat the jinx that she had on me,

now i am not a stupid person either, so i wised up and started only calling her bets with super dooper hands and nuts betting into after the river, that was my only chance, by the way she still has me jinxed and i still hate her.

what else could you have done, probably nothing is the real answer, all these masters of the game offering you, the one, the true 1, advice is laughable.

dont listen to them Flipper, as you know this is a crazy mixed up world we move in, this poker world of outdraws / suckouts and bad, no horrible beats, but remember this when you are feeling low after such a hammering,
i cried because i had no shoes, until i saw a man with no feet.
next time you call me awsome, i will let you know who

GUBU even.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Flipper

Killme00 wrote:

Why did you call the preflop raise...you know you cant get a straight flush every time and paid off by the nuts flush every time dont you!!

I call because it's a small price to potentially win a huge pot. Hali raises with 60% of starting hands so it's not just about my cards - eg. if a flop comes (forget my starting hand for one second) say, 678.... he will posture at it and I will probably re-raise it to take it away from him. My hand is also very disguised because I don't have a reputation of playing with trash cards.

Killme00 wrote:

Are you thinking off raising or folding..what is halibuts range like..if you put him on the high hand preflop i think i could justify a call here but only barely

His range is huge! Thsi is a blank flop and I have to assume it missed him as much as me. If he has one pair preflop, he's 13/2 to make a set here - after all, this hand plays the same to the point of his all in on the turn if he had nothing - that was when I first figure out he has a lot of it.

My hand may have some draws on the turn but my redraws on the river can potentially be huge. My call is two-fold. 1: To try and turn a concealed made hand or a monster draw (which I did). 2: To make a play if an appropraite card comes on the turn.

Killme00 wrote:

He raised to 100 preflop and bet 500, you know whats coming here..i think i would take the free card here, simply because i think he would call the bet or reraise..do you really think your diamonds can be ahead..if you didnt have diamonds would you still be ahead here..this is why i check

I have no reason to believe my diamonds are not live here. We're HU so I can only go on assumptions. Luckily, diamonds are not my only outs so if they're dead, I still have a way to the nuts.

My reason for posting here was mainly to see what people thought of the turn card play. HJ, Roundtower and cardshark see the purpose of the bet I think but I just spent quiet a bit of time think about if it was the right thing to do. I suppose any card that makes my hand on the river freezes the action anyway so I'm better off with my money in the middle and hope to hit my wrap. If I take a free river and a diamond comes, I will have trouble calling a pot bet

BigCityBanker

Phil-Dublin = Phil "Bad Beat" Harris ?

Just a guess?

ntlbell

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Bizzare.

Queer eye for the straight guy?

This is truly turning into a very bizzare thread.

ArmaniJeanss

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Gubu?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUBU

Jesus, Lloyd, do you not remember all the political scandals back in 1982 ?

ianmc38

Phil-Dublin wrote:

Flipper
plase understand that i have the highest respect for you as a person and as a player, actually i have played at your table, and i do mean your table, coz you were the man at it, and i have seen you play and outplay more people with that generous banter and jovial demeanour that sets people at ease despite being in the presence of pure poker genius.
still think that i am of the impression that you are anything like stupid, hell no, "you are the 1" in my book. i will let you know who i am when i next meet you in person.
in the meantime, let me say this as the only advice i could possibly offer a man of your immense skill, and i mean this, AVOID THAT MAN HALLIBUT
every once in a while a player comes along that for some unknown and bizzare reason, keeps taking your chips, there is no logical or theoretical or even mathemathical logarithim to make head nor tail of it, its just a fact of life and you should AVOID HALLIBUT like some kind of disease or foul smelling rancid rotten corpse, unless you have the absolute nuts after the river card has been displayed, then and only then should you consider making any kind of play against that man.
personally, there is a woman that had been taking chips off me for years, so much so, that i started to hate her, even though she is a very nice person, i started calling her every bet, trying to beat the jinx that she had on me,

now i am not a stupid person either, so i wised up and started only calling her bets with super dooper hands and nuts betting into after the river, that was my only chance, by the way she still has me jinxed and i still hate her.

what else could you have done, probably nothing is the real answer, all these masters of the game offering you, the one, the true 1, advice is laughable.

dont listen to them Flipper, as you know this is a crazy mixed up world we move in, this poker world of outdraws / suckouts and bad, no horrible beats, but remember this when you are feeling low after such a hammering,
i cried because i had no shoes, until i saw a man with no feet.
next time you call me awsome, i will let you know who

Mods, if you're not stickying this entire thread, please sticky this post. Cutting edge analysis like this should not be missed by anybody with an interest in the game.

I know he's a little shy on having his identity known, but I've a feeling it might be this guy

phantom_lord

lol. he's a great addition to the forum.

5starpool

BigCityBanker wrote:

Phil-Dublin = Phil "Bad Beat" Harris ?

Just a guess?

I had the same thought, but he is posting in the student threads too so that dissuaded me from posting that.