$9,000 pot - Is there anything I can do different??

Flipper

Churchill Falls 10474803-75191 Omaha Pot Limit $10/$20
[Jan 10 23:24:14] : Hand Start.
[Jan 10 23:24:14] : Seat 1 : nicedave has $860
[Jan 10 23:24:14] : Seat 2 : halibut2 has $4,429.50
[Jan 10 23:24:14] : Seat 3 : exposed has $3,045.42
[Jan 10 23:24:14] : Seat 4 : RU$TY has $4,669.82
[Jan 10 23:24:14] : Seat 5 : PARIS40 has $1,397
[Jan 10 23:24:14] : Seat 6 : PokerTart has $3,462
[Jan 10 23:24:14] : nicedave is the dealer.
[Jan 10 23:24:15] : halibut2 posted small blind.
[Jan 10 23:24:15] : exposed posted big blind.
[Jan 10 23:24:15] : Game [75191] started with 6 players.
[Jan 10 23:24:15] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jan 10 23:24:15] : Seat 4 : RU$TY has 6d 8d 3h 4h
[Jan 10 23:24:17] : RU$TY called $20
[Jan 10 23:24:20] : PARIS40 folded.
[Jan 10 23:24:22] : PokerTart called $20
[Jan 10 23:24:25] : nicedave called $20
[Jan 10 23:24:26] : halibut2 called $10 and raised $100
[Jan 10 23:24:28] : exposed folded.
[Jan 10 23:24:33] : RU$TY called $100
[Jan 10 23:24:34] : PokerTart called $100
[Jan 10 23:24:40] : nicedave called $100
[Jan 10 23:24:41] : Dealing flop.
[Jan 10 23:24:41] : Board cards [7c 5d Jh]
[Jan 10 23:24:48] : halibut2 bet $500
[Jan 10 23:25:03] : It's your turn.
[Jan 10 23:25:03] : RU$TY has 10 seconds to respond.
[Jan 10 23:25:07] : RU$TY called $500
[Jan 10 23:25:17] : PokerTart folded.
[Jan 10 23:25:21] : nicedave folded.
[Jan 10 23:25:21] : Dealing turn.
[Jan 10 23:25:21] : Board cards [7c 5d Jh 2d]
[Jan 10 23:25:30] : halibut2 checked.
[Jan 10 23:25:35] : RU$TY bet $1,500
[Jan 10 23:25:37] : halibut2 called $1,500 and raised $2,309.50 and is All-in
[Jan 10 23:25:42] : RU$TY called $2,309.50
[Jan 10 23:25:42] : Showdown!
[Jan 10 23:25:42] : Seat 4 : RU$TY has 6d 8d 3h 4h
[Jan 10 23:25:44] : Seat 2 : halibut2 has 5s 9h 7s 7h
[Jan 10 23:25:44] : Seat 4 : RU$TY has 6d 8d 3h 4h
[Jan 10 23:25:49] : Board cards [7c 5d Jh 2d Kc]
[Jan 10 23:25:49] : Seat 2 : halibut2 has 5s 9h 7s 7h
[Jan 10 23:25:49] : halibut2 has 3 of a Kind: 7s
[Jan 10 23:25:49] : Seat 4 : RU$TY has 6d 8d 3h 4h
[Jan 10 23:25:49] : RU$TY has High Card : King
[Jan 10 23:25:49] : halibut2 wins $9,116 with 3 of a Kind: 7s
[Jan 10 23:25:58] : Hand is over.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

cant even work out ur outs on river ul mate up and down twice with flush draw 15 outs???? :mad: :mad:

u gambled unlucky

Flipper

every card from the Ace to the 9 (that doesn't pair the board) and the diamonds. I'm 55% fav on the turn

Lazare

Wow, what a huge draw! Villain only had one blocker too, v unlucky.

A little loose preflop maybe?

bops

should you call the pf raise with that??

bops

ps serious question - not a dig!

Flipper

The implied odds of playing this hand in a deep stacked game are huge. Add the factor of me being in position and I think you'd be mad not to play for $100 when you can win $5k+

Shortstack

Just don't play halibut.....

bops

ok ty just askin!!

cardshark202

Mike's advice is best here. The hand is standard though an argument can be made for checking behind on the turn but I would certainly bet.

loosecannon

i think that the hand was played poorly but not in the way that anyone has mentioned as of yet

pre-flop is fine and although some would fold here, both are good, the point at which the hand went wrong is on the flop (and this is a prime example of how in poker a mistake at one point in the hand can end up costing you a lot more than the actual initial cost)

this is not a good flop for you, you have an open ended straight draw and a very weak backdoor flush draw (with no pair). now the key (imo) to omaha is to draw to the nuts, after this flop you have just 4 outs for the nuts as the jack on the board would give the player with 10 8 the better straight if the 9 comes

so, the question is there anything you can do different in this hand? yes dump on flop asap (i note u used ur time the whole way down when deciding to call or not)

i actually thought it would be an inst-fold on the flop, if u run into somebody playing 10 9 8 6 (quite possible) you are in a world of pain

ul though the way the hand panned out, the turn giving you every chance and the river blanking to the max! leaving you with no pair!

gl:)

cardshark202

loosecannon wrote:

i think that the hand was played poorly but not in the way that anyone has mentioned as of yet

pre-flop is fine and although some would fold here, both are good, the point at which the hand went wrong is on the flop (and this is a prime example of how in poker a mistake at one point in the hand can end up costing you a lot more than the actual initial cost)

this is not a good flop for you, you have an open ended straight draw and a very weak backdoor flush draw (with no pair). now the key (imo) to omaha is to draw to the nuts, after this flop you have just 4 outs for the nuts as the jack on the board would give the player with 10 8 the better straight if the 9 comes

so, the question is there anything you can do different in this hand? yes dump on flop asap (i note u used ur time the whole way down when deciding to call or not)

i actually thought it would be an inst-fold on the flop, if u run into somebody playing 10 9 8 6 (quite possible) you are in a world of pain

ul though the way the hand panned out, the turn giving you every chance and the river blanking to the max! leaving you with no pair!

gl:)

There is still a lot of money behind so I think the call is fine on the flop.

loosecannon

cardshark202 wrote:

The hand is standard though an argument can be made for checking behind on the turn but I would certainly bet.

i don't agree with the hand being standard at all...how can the hand be standard when there are so many different ways that it could have panned out?;)


ps myself manso etc are heading out to oz in feb, i hear ur doin the same, we shall catch up down there i'm sure....

cardshark202

loosecannon wrote:

i don't agree with the hand being standard at all...how can the hand be standard when there are so many different ways that it could have panned out?;)


ps myself manso etc are heading out to oz in feb, i hear ur doin the same, we shall catch up down there i'm sure....

Cool yeah I heard that. We'll be in melbourne somewhere around that time.

MrPillowTalk

Shortstack wrote:

Just don't play halibut.....

eh game selection? how is playing hali ever +ev

Hectorjelly

Im no omaha expert, but these are my thoughts

I dont think the fact that there is a lot of money behind is going to turn the flop call profitable if Halibut is anything like as good as people are making out in this thread. Implied odds dont really mean much against a very good player, and its not much of a draw.

Also preflop I think your hand is too weak to play utg. Too many gaps.

lazlo

You have the idiot end of far too many potential straights to be calling his flop bet. Especially with two player to act behind you. I'm surprished netierh of them had a hand worth continuing with especially after you juiced the odds for them. I reckon you would normally be expecting another call behind you(if not a raise which is something you could not stand to call)....both of those eventualities leave you in a very tough spot. Realistically your draw isnt strong enough to proceed beyond the flop and you probably should have only played that hand from a better position to begin with.
Ultimately you did snag a heck of a lot of outs on the turn and were up against the best hand you could have realistically hoped to be against.

fuzzbox

you could fold the flop.
Your draw is not good on the flop. You have lots of non-nut straight draws, that your opponent might well be all over.

You could also check the turn. Betting is fine if your opponent often fires full pot into a field on the flop with nothing and check/folds the turn. But if he doesnt (and most dont fire the full pot into the field without something), then he surely is not afraid of the 2.

fuzzbox

Flipper wrote:

The implied odds of playing this hand in a deep stacked game are huge. Add the factor of me being in position and I think you'd be mad not to play for $100 when you can win $5k+

How much implied odds did you get ???????

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

There is still a lot of money behind so I think the call is fine on the flop.

I think its the opposite.

Hectorjelly

fuzzbox wrote:

You could also check the turn. Betting is fine if your opponent often fires full pot into a field on the flop with nothing and check/folds the turn. But if he doesnt (and most dont fire the full pot into the field without something), then he surely is not afraid of the 2.

I was going to post this, but I thought about if for a while. As it turned out their hands were exactly 50 50 on the turn, so checking would be a huge mistake as he only needs to fold a very small amount of the time to make it profitable. The downside to betting is that you are opening yourself up for playing a $10k pot with no pair on the turn, but if you are scared of varience you should probably play lower.

Betting the turn gives you a freeroll in a sense, either you flip for any money that goes in with no positive or negative equity gain, or you take the whole pot which you are certainly going to lose around half the time if theres a showdown.

Flipper

HJ, I'm 55/45 favourite on the turn (check it if you don't believe me). By betting the turn, I give myself 2 chances to win the pot - I can take it down right there or put it all in against a set and outdraw if the villian wishes.

This is the turning point in the hand - and where an argument can be made for me making a mistake.

kebabfest

ouch typical Omaha hand. I thought Halibut played it v well. You had a great drawing hand and as you said figured a bet on the turn may have won it then and there and even it didnt you where fav.
From Halibuts perpsepctive it was obviously you had a drawing hand as otherwise you would have raised the flop, so he knew he was ahead.

Ste05

Flipper wrote:

HJ, I'm 55/45 favourite on the turn (check it if you don't believe me). By betting the turn, I give myself 2 chances to win the pot - I can take it down right there or put it all in against a set and outdraw if the villian wishes.

This is the turning point in the hand - and where an argument can be made for me making a mistake.

This is basically exactly what HJ just said? Also, it's hard to make a mistake as a 55% favourite. Maybe you should be looking at the other streets.

5starpool

I still think folding that flop is the best option though as you don't have a great hand on the flop. The 2d is pretty much the best card in the deck for you though (apart from a 4). Most of your outs though on the tun are to non nuts, and even though they all turned out to be live it is hard to be confident of them surely, especially 8 high diamonds?

Phil-Dublin

I really cant believe that you guys are falling for this

Flipper asking for advice is like the spider asking the fly how he could improve the quality of his webs
or expecting turkeys to vote for christmas

Flipper knows only too well what he should be doing in this hand

he was in a coin flip situation and took a punt at the pot, as he says himself he hoped to take it down with a bet, which would have been his best out

how many times do you see that a favorite preflop or even on the flop lose the hand

if you really want advice Flipper, stop playing with rags against that man

i think you were trying it on and it didnt work, you were playing the player instead of the cards and the reads from the betting

ps, why do you think i am an awsome player? or do you just say that to me as a con? like are you bluffing me with that sort of remark? to make me feel good and let me think i am a better player than i actually am? man you are tricky.

anon e mouse

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Lafortezza

I check behind on the turn I think. halibut is not going to check/raise without a hand that has you 50/50 or dominated (a better wrap+flushdraw or something).
If you bet the turn and halibuts has a big pair hand that has missed the board so far like AAxx or KQQJds he'll fold.

I'm all for playing big pots in position with big draws, but against a good player I don't see much wrong with sometimes keeping the pot small until you actually hit your hand.

If you check behind on the turn then you can check fold on a missed river having lost very little. After you checked behind on the turn halibut might bet the river and if you've hit then raise for teh value.

Probably far too passive a line but I don't like playing big pots against good players.

ianmc38

I dont think you have any implied odds on the flop. If the straightening card comes on the turn, hali will not pay you off. Therefore the flop is always a fold. I also think the limp call preflop is bad.

Flipper

ummm.... Phil-Dublin (which I'm sure is not even close to your name) - is that a dig at me or something?? Maybe I'm stupid, but I'm not able to work out what you're getting at...

Rb

LuckyLloyd wrote:

.

RacingSilver

Pre-flop call - bad.
Flop call - worse.
Turn bet - fine.

Flipper, you can't be lucky all the time.
What about your recent tournie hand where you went all-in with AT on a T,4,3 board, and had 2 callers - one with 3,4 and the other with 4,4.
And you won the hand !

Ste05

RacingSilver wrote:

Flipper, you can't be lucky all the time.
What about your recent tournie hand where you went all-in with AT on a T,4,3 board, and had 2 callers - one with 3,4 and the other with 4,4.
And you won the hand !

:eek: OMG! How?
Running 10's? Running A's? or Running 2, 5? My guess would be the last one...

RacingSilver

Yup - Running 2,5.
Bad call by his 2 opponents though - they should have known their place.

Flipper

lol ya that was soooo sick. there was 7k in the middle and I had 14k in front of me. I pushed with 2 players left to act with AT on a 34T board. Both players called (i cover one) with 44 and 34!!!! Turn 5, River 2. BOOM! An unhappy German gentleman left rather quickly. As Roy said, "if he wasn't smiling before, he definatly isn't now!!" Sickest beat I've given in a long time. On the other hand, I received two similiar ones that day too...

Hectorjelly

Flipper wrote:

HJ, I'm 55/45 favourite on the turn (check it if you don't believe me). By betting the turn, I give myself 2 chances to win the pot - I can take it down right there or put it all in against a set and outdraw if the villian wishes.

This is the turning point in the hand - and where an argument can be made for me making a mistake.

I think checking the turn would be a big mistake, as I said earlier.

ianmc38

Flipper wrote:

lol ya that was soooo sick. there was 7k in the middle and I had 14k in front of me. I pushed with 2 players left to act with AT on a 34T board. Both players called (i cover one) with 44 and 34!!!! Turn 5, River 2. BOOM! An unhappy German gentleman left rather quickly. As Roy said, "if he wasn't smiling before, he definatly isn't now!!" Sickest beat I've given in a long time. On the other hand, I received two similiar ones that day too...

Why did you push 14k into a 7k pot?

Flipper

Because I thought there was a good chance I was winning on that flop. TT and 44 were the only hands that would have been in the unraised pot (a fairly uncommon thing at our table) that were destroying my hand. Also, there were two spades on the board so I wanted to finish the pot right there. AA/KK/QQ/JJ would have all raised pre-flop. What else can I be up against that can call for their stack? Not much point in betting 5k-7k and then folding. I'm not hanging around in tourneys to survive; I'm there to accumulate a stack as early as possible. As it happened, I did that and then Fintan dogged my KK with A9 (K on the flop BTW as well) for a 140k pot when the avg was 70k to put me out in 16th! I deserve it thou for that sick, sick runner runner!

MrPillowTalk

Flipper wrote:

I'm not hanging around in tourneys to survive; I'm there to accumulate a stack as early as possible.

I talked to you about this at the weekend but you have to realise this is the wrong attitude to have, you got yourself knocked out in the main event and in a terrible spot in this tourney needing to hit runner runner to survive when there was no need.

The "I want to accumulate a stack" approach is fine so long as that means you look to take a big race early or play a big draw very aggresively, however it doesnt mean pushing all in on a huge overbet in a spot where you only ever get called if your beaten like a redhaired stepchild. Your exit hand in the main event was a similar car crash, you seem to be thinking a bit if in doubt push.

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think checking the turn would be a big mistake, as I said earlier.

Why do you think its a big mistake?
I dont mind betting and I dont mind checking. I doubt its a big mistake to check behind, given that our hand kinda looks like what it is, and that he *should* have a hand he likes given the flop pot into the field. The 2 changes nothing from his perspective, but if he has top two or a set or even AA with nut flush draw, then he can CRAI and get the money in now, rather than pot the turn, and get called with 2k still in the tank for a lot of rivers that he may not like.

Flipper - I know that you are 55/45 against this *particular* hand, but I doubt you are 55/45 fave against his range.

Once again, however, if he often pots the flop into a field oop and then check/folds the turn, then betting is prolly the best option.

PS - I really think that preflop is bad and the flop call is really the worst part of the hand, and ended up causing the ultimate loss of 4.5k.

cardshark202

I'm pretty sure halibut will fire with a wide enough range on the flop to make the call profitable, assuming you increase your bluffing frequency on the turn. The most questionable part for me is preflop but I don't mind it too much.

Hectorjelly

What do you think his equity is against halibuts range? If its anything close to 50 then I think you have to bet, I agree that if its less than 40 checking is probably better but at around 50 it has to be worth a bet as we can only gain if we bet.

fuzzbox

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I pot the turn in practice, and it cant really be that bad cos the draw is so big.

RoundTower

I play the same way on all streets but I can understand anyone who wanted to play it different. They only advice I really agree with is to avoid halibut.

Chucky the tree

Only a novice at the poker, so might seem a stupid question.

But why not check on the turn?

DapperGent

Chucky the tree wrote:

Only a novice at the poker, so might seem a stupid question.

But why not check on the turn?

At this point in the hand Flipper has a huge draw but like eight high so he is currently behind nearly 100% of the time. If his opponent has a set (and no blockers) Flipper will win about half the time, if his opponent has bare AA Flipper will again win about half the time. So if Flipper bets the turn he will get all in with about 50% chance of winning if his opponent has a set and he will win $1500 without a showdown if his opponent has something like bare AA.

Basically it's profitable to bet to try and take it down as he's in pretty similar shape against the current nuts as he is against a hand that will insta fold. That being that we're correct in thinking the opponent in this hand can be continuation betting with AA or something similar a fairly large amount of the time.

Personally I don't think a winning player is going to cont bet into three callers with bare AA or a pure bluff very often. A good player leading this flop into 3 callers after raising pre looks very strong to me. Therefore I reckon checking behind on the turn and playing a smaller pot is better. Having said that I don't think you're ever making a huge mistake by getting it in with such a huge draw as your opponent needs a very specific hand to have you completely boned.

Phil-Dublin

Flipper
plase understand that i have the highest respect for you as a person and as a player, actually i have played at your table, and i do mean your table, coz you were the man at it, and i have seen you play and outplay more people with that generous banter and jovial demeanour that sets people at ease despite being in the presence of pure poker genius.
still think that i am of the impression that you are anything like stupid, hell no, "you are the 1" in my book. i will let you know who i am when i next meet you in person.
in the meantime, let me say this as the only advice i could possibly offer a man of your immense skill, and i mean this, AVOID THAT MAN HALLIBUT
every once in a while a player comes along that for some unknown and bizzare reason, keeps taking your chips, there is no logical or theoretical or even mathemathical logarithim to make head nor tail of it, its just a fact of life and you should AVOID HALLIBUT like some kind of disease or foul smelling rancid rotten corpse, unless you have the absolute nuts after the river card has been displayed, then and only then should you consider making any kind of play against that man.
personally, there is a woman that had been taking chips off me for years, so much so, that i started to hate her, even though she is a very nice person, i started calling her every bet, trying to beat the jinx that she had on me,

now i am not a stupid person either, so i wised up and started only calling her bets with super dooper hands and nuts betting into after the river, that was my only chance, by the way she still has me jinxed and i still hate her.

what else could you have done, probably nothing is the real answer, all these masters of the game offering you, the one, the true 1, advice is laughable.

dont listen to them Flipper, as you know this is a crazy mixed up world we move in, this poker world of outdraws / suckouts and bad, no horrible beats, but remember this when you are feeling low after such a hammering,
i cried because i had no shoes, until i saw a man with no feet.
next time you call me awsome, i will let you know who

Phil-Dublin

in case you missed the point

here it is again

AVOID HALLIBUT

you may call a bet only when ahead so much that he needs to go Runner Runner Runner, yes 3

Hectorjelly

Chucky the tree wrote:

Only a novice at the poker, so might seem a stupid question.

But why not check on the turn?

this has already been explained, because flippers draws are so big he will win the pot half the time at a showdown, however the other half he will end up definitely losing. If you knew you were going to get all in on the turn you dont lose or gain any equity, but sometimes he will fold which is great. So betting here is mandatory.

This would be very different if he had a merely good draw with 40% Equity or less, as because you lose equity on all the money that goes in on the turn. So for holdem hands if theres a good chance of being chk raised in situations like this checking is nearly always better.

Hectorjelly

Phil-Dublin wrote:

what else could you have done, probably nothing is the real answer, all these masters of the game offering you, the one, the true 1, advice is laughable.

end of thread I suppose, cheers for the heads up phil!

Killme00

Flipper wrote:

[Jan 10 23:24:15] : Seat 4 : RU$TY has 6d 8d 3h 4h
[Jan 10 23:24:33] : RU$TY called $100:(

Why did you call the preflop raise...you know you cant get a straight flush every time and paid off by the nuts flush every time dont you!!

Flipper wrote:

[Jan 10 23:24:41] : Board cards [7c 5d Jh]
[Jan 10 23:25:03] : RU$TY has 10 seconds to respond
[Jan 10 23:25:07] : RU$TY called $500.:(

Are you thinking off raising or folding..what is halibuts range like..if you put him on the high hand preflop i think i could justify a call here but only barely

Flipper wrote:

[Jan 10 23:25:21] : Board cards [7c 5d Jh 2d]
[Jan 10 23:25:30] : halibut2 checked.
[Jan 10 23:25:35] : RU$TY bet $1,500
[Jan 10 23:25:37] : halibut2 called $1,500 and raised $2,309.50 and is All-in.:(

He raised to 100 preflop and bet 500, you know whats coming here..i think i would take the free card here, simply because i think he would call the bet or reraise..do you really think your diamonds can be ahead..if you didnt have diamonds would you still be ahead here..this is why i check

Flipper wrote:

[Jan 10 23:25:21]
[Jan 10 23:25:42] : Seat 4 : RU$TY has 6d 8d 3h 4h
[Jan 10 23:25:44] : Seat 2 : halibut2 has 5s 9h 7s 7h
[Jan 10 23:25:49] : Board cards [7c 5d Jh 2d Kc]

Edit: The little at the end of each part is quite apt