Tip bar staff and publicans will reduce prices

Tom Dunne

According to the Indo this morning (linky) Louis Fitzgerald has said that if customers tip his staff, he will reduce the price of drink by up to 20%.

A LEADING publican has offered to drop the price of his pint by 20pc in return for a new tipping-based method of paying bar staff.
Louis Fitzgerald, who owns a string of high-profile pubs in Dublin and elsewhere, said he believed it was only a matter of time before tips, coupled with a small wage, became an accepted way of paying bar staff. He admitted his group would reduce its wage bill under a tipping-based payment system but said this would be matched by a reduction drink prices. The customer might pay "a bit more" overall.
"If there was a serious tipping culture, and bar staff were to accept the tips and the wages, I would gladly take 20pc off the price of a pint."
But the Mandate union, which represents more than 3,000 bar staff in the Greater Dublin area, disagreed strongly with Mr Fitzgerald's proposal.

So, what do you think? Could it work here?

Personally, I would be on for it. Too many times I have had to beg for a drink from a barperson only to be greeted with indifference and an attitude.

Do you think this would incentivise bar staff to be polite and courteous?

Mr E

Rich publicans get richer by paying their staff less.
Staff rely on unguaranteed tips to make ends meet.

Good for publicans, bad for staff.

RuggieBear

don't most staff get minimum wage... how would he reduce costs if he still has to pay that anyway

Sleepy

Good for Publicans
Good for bar staff
Awful for consumers.

Hagar

A LEADING publican has offered to drop the price of his pint by 20pc ... "If there was a serious tipping culture, and bar staff were to accept the tips and the wages, I would gladly take 20pc off the price of a pint."

I don't believe that prices would fall by anything like 20%.
It would be more inclined to think that "20pc" is a misprint for "20c".

Tom Dunne

Let's face it, the publicans are on to a winner, no matter what.

Would it improve things for both customers and staff though? I'd like to think it would.

Staff have an incentive to be ultra-nice, and accordingly can make more money. Customers probably end up paying the same, but get better service.

Mitzy

Either way the consumer will be paying the same price - the drink may be slightly cheaper but we'll have to pay the difference in tips. Not much of a benefit!

stovelid

Please.

This is typical greedy publican sh*t.

It's not that i begrudge staff a tip in theory but I begrudge some cnut trying to offload the cost of paying his staff on to me.

My friend worked in a bar in NYC for ages. He got a very small basic wage and lived on his (admittedly good) tips.

Outcome:

Bar owner makes big profit, saves on staff wages.

Bar staff need tips to make a living

Consumer gets treated like a leper (ignored at the bar!) if they don't tip

tom dunne wrote:

According to the Indo this morning (linky) Louis Fitzgerald has said that if customers tip his staff, he will reduce the price of drink by up to 20%.


So, what do you think? Could it work here?

Personally, I would be on for it. Too many times I have had to beg for a drink from a barperson only to be greeted with indifference and an attitude.

Do you think this would incentivise bar staff to be polite and courteous?

Gone West

RuggieBear wrote:

don't most staff get minimum wage... how would he reduce costs if he still has to pay that anyway

Like the US, they could take the tips into account when calculating what the staff actually earn.

Its usually an average tip for the week, or an "expected gratuity earnings" type bullshít.

Gordon

Hagar wrote:

I don't believe that prices would fall by anything like 20%.
It would be more inclined to think that "20pc" is a misprint for "20c".

I was wondering that too.

Would it really improve the quality of service though? Surely it would just force consumers to pay a tip hence the barstaff wouldn't feel that they would have to be especially good/nice as the tip is expected.

How does it work in America? It works the same there right? /edit missed stovelids post

Also, how would the taxman feel about this?

Malice

TmB wrote:

Rich publicans get richer by paying their staff less.
Staff rely on unguaranteed tips to make ends meet.

Good for publicans, bad for staff.

I think this sums it up perfectly. I wouldn't rely on the publicans to reduce prices by anything like 20 percent if the idea took off.

It's customary to tip bar staff in the USA isn't it so maybe the powers that be are trying to bring that idea in?

Dr_Teeth

What's in it for us? We'd pay slightly less for drink *in theory* (there's no way publicans would reduce the cost, just like they didn't when VAT went down to 20%) but we'd have to tip bar staff or get treated like crap, as it is in the US. We'd be worse off tbh.

Tom Dunne

Gordon wrote:

I was wondering that too.

Would it really improve the quality of service though? Surely it would just force consumers to pay a tip hence the barstaff wouldn't feel that they would have to be especially good/nice as the tip is expected.

How does it work in America? It works the same there right?

But consumers wouldn't tip if barstaff weren't nice. In America, tipping is expected, but so is service. If service is poor, reduce the tip accordingly.

stovelid

Not sure what the overall picture is there. That was my mates experience anyway.

I just can't help feeling that the drop in drink prices would not be equivalent to the wage savings publicans could make from a tipping culture.

The aim of Fitzgerald's gesture is just to include tips in staff wages.

AA Gill is always fuming about a similar thing in the UK. Mandatory service charges in some restaurants being used to pay staff wages and not as an additional gratuity (as believed by most customers).

Gordon wrote:

I was wondering that too.

Would it really improve the quality of service though? Surely it would just force consumers to pay a tip hence the barstaff wouldn't feel that they would have to be especially good/nice as the tip is expected.

How does it work in America? It works the same there right? /edit missed stovelids post

Also, how would the taxman feel about this?

scojones

If bar staff were getting paid 2 euro an hour, and it was 2.50 for a pint then i would tip, otherwise... no chance.

seamus

Publicans can't legally pay anything less than the minimum wage, regardless of tips. And since most of them don't even pay minimum wage, I fail to see how tipping their staff will allow them to pay any less.

Most pubs in Dublin barely have enough staff as it is, so their wage bill can't be huge.

Let's see;

Barman paid €12/hour (very generous)
Barman serves avg of 2 pints every 3 minutes, at €4.50 per pint. (average throughout the whole day - busy times = more pints)
Barman serves 40 pints in an hour, total revenue €180
Pub takes 40% profit margin = €72/hour
Pay barman - €60/hour.
Pub with three barman, and open for 12 hours per day = €2,160 per day.

Pub open 363 days per year = Operating revenues of €785,000

Looks like fine maths to me. Heat, light, electricity and insurance can't be anything approaching 30% of that amount.

stovelid

not attacking you TD but last time I was in NYC, the tipping culture is so aggressive (ignored in one bar because the tip wasn't high enough, doorman saying "oh a dollar, how nice" sarcastically) that you usually do tip for a quiet life.

Maybe I'm just a wimp or went to the wrong places

tom dunne wrote:

But consumers wouldn't tip if barstaff weren't nice. In America, tipping is expected, but so is service. If service is poor, reduce the tip accordingly.

simu

Don't like the idea of small wage plus uncertain tips for staff. Atm, I find most Irish bar staff are good enough and certainly wouldn't like to have to put up with all the fawning for tips you get in the USA.

Mossy Monk

what's this?

a publican thinking of others

LOL

Jimoslimos

I used to work as a barman and TBH I don't like the idea. An excuse for publicans to pay their staff even less. Wages aren't great but they're nowhere as bad as they are in the states. Also what about other workers, floor staff, doormen, etc., they contribute to the level of "service" as much as barstaff - how will they benefit?

Anyhow I much preferred my customers to be polite rather than tipping me to get better service

Tom Dunne

stovelid wrote:

not attacking you TD but last time I was in NYC, the tipping culture is so aggressive (ignored in one bar because the tip wasn't high enough, doorman saying "oh a dollar, how nice" sarcastically) that you usually do tip for a quiet life.

Maybe I'm just a wimp or went to the wrong places

Actually, that is a very valid point. I have been all over the US and it's nothing like it is in New York. They are a hell of a lot more civil regarding tips everywhere else.

It would be an interesting experiment if the Fitzgerald group decided to drop their prices in their establishments, drop wages and see what happens. I really would like to think it would mean more money for the barstaff and better service for customers.

free2fly

Here waitstaff are paid very low base wages and rely on their tips to survive. Bartenders are paid a higher wage and usually receive 10% of the waitstaff's total tips for the night as well. Bouncers and other staff are paid a higher wage to compensate for the lack of tips. Tipping does tend to encourage better service. However, having worked as a bartender and bar manager, I know for a fact that it does not lower the price of drinks.

b3t4

I HATED the tipping culture when I was in America. All I kept thinking was how fake all the service people were. They were purely concerned about what tip I was giving them rather than anything else.

At least I know that if someone treats me well in the service industry in Ireland they are actually nice people and not out for what they can get. I also like the fact that they are paid a sight better than a lot of the people in the service industry in America.

Can this country please stop trying to be America?!?

A.

Flukey

Tip bar staff and publicans will reduce prices

Yeah, and your drinks will be brought to your table by a flying pig!:rolleyes:

Tom Dunne

b3t4 wrote:

They were purely concerned about what tip I was giving them rather than anything else.

Yes, by focussing on what's in it for them, they know they can achieve this by ensuring you get good service.

b3t4 wrote:

Can this country please stop trying to be America?!?

Is it wrong to expect proper service?

How many times have you had a pint literally thrown at you in a pub in Ireland? Granted, there are decent barstaff out there, but there are also a percentage of tossers too. Ever had to return a pint? Nothing irritates me more than a returned pint put to the side, so some other poor gobsite can be served it later in the night.

Degsy

stovelid wrote:

Please.

This is typical greedy publican sh*t.

It's not that i begrudge staff a tip in theory but I begrudge some cnut trying to offload the cost of paying his staff on to me.

My friend worked in a bar in NYC for ages. He got a very small basic wage and lived on his (admittedly good) tips.

Outcome:

Bar owner makes big profit, saves on staff wages.

Bar staff need tips to make a living

Consumer gets treated like a leper (ignored at the bar!) if they don't tip

Amen to that.
Multimillionaires trying to save money by getting the customer to pay his staff's wages,its a f ucking disgrace.Who's getting all the profit on the pint anyway?He could HALF the price of the pint and still make a good wage if he didnt have to pay staff.greedy bastards.

Mossy Monk

tom dunne wrote:

Is it wrong to expect proper service?

no but niceness turned up to the max just for more tips would annoy the hell out of me

Flukey

People are being paid to do a job. They should not have to be paid more to be politer or to provide a better service. They should be doing that anyway. That is not the real issue here.

As it has been said, it is the publicans saying this, wanting the customer to pay their staff part of their earnings. It is a cop out by them. It is a publican that has raised this, not bar staff. If they provide a good service a lot of people will tip them anyway, but their employers should be paying them a proper wage, not expecting the customer to do so. When we buy something in the pub, we are paying their wage anyhow. It should be down to a customer to choose to tip or not and it should be down to the publican as to how they pay their staff.

So keep the focus in this thread on the publican copping out, not staff looking for tips. As the way this thread has gone proves, the publicans are putting the focus away from themselves and on to their staff. Don't fall in that trap, as you seem to be doing. So focus on the employer cop-out. Even if we do start tipping more, do you really think they will drop the price of a pint? They might reduce the wages they are paying, but you can be sure the price of the pint won't go down. It is all a ruse by publicans.

stovelid

also the knowledge that your tip is not an appreciative contract between you and considerate staff......

I want my tips to augment a low wage not to make them up.

Mossy Monk wrote:

no but niceness turned up to the max just for more tips would annoy the hell out of me

User45701

here sorry im busy in work so if this was posted already im sorry.
This is a good thing is it not?

Pubs = pay staff cheeper
Customer = Cheaper prices
Bar Staff = More Tips = WITHOUT TAX so they will actually end up with more money as long as people are willing to tip them everyone wins

The_B_Man

NO, bad idea! Very bad idea! We dont need another thing to worry about. We should jsut keep it the way it is now.

Go to the bar. Order a pint. Get me pint. Pay for it. Drink it. Maybe complain about the price. Whatever.

monkeyfudge

I'd much rather pay more for a pint than have to put up with hassle of calculating tips for an evening. If a pub has poor service you simply should stop drinking there, there's no shortage of other pubs to go to in this country.

podge018

There is no way tipping will catch on in Ireland, even if the price was reduced. Imagine pub regulars, lets say over 50 years of age, tipping you every pint. I don't think so. I'm a barman in the city centre and some days are so quiet you would be a long time earning a days wage relying on tips. Then when it's busy it's usually Yanks who must be briefed on the plane over that it's not necessary to tip, or Europeans who never tip the barstaff (they tip floor-staff allright). The Brits are the best tippers, by way of "have one yourself mate" at the first round, so that's €4 a night off them.

It's not in our make-up to tip bar staff so I can't see it happening.

justsomebloke

wrote:

The customer might pay "a bit more" overall.

If they are already saying that it is going to cost the consumer a bit more overall by the time they add on the tip to the cost of the pint then what is the point of it bar to help line the employers pocket. But as said the staff would have to be paid minimum wage anyway

Hagar

User45701 wrote:

Bar Staff = More Tips = WITHOUT TAX so they will actually end up with more money as long as people are willing to tip them everyone wins

That's not going to happen. The Taxman is not stupid. AFAIK they already factor in an amount for tips when calculating the tax liabilities for hairdressers as tipping is the norm. When money received from any source becomes a "norm" it becomes "income" for tax purposes. I'm open to correction on this but I am fairly sure.

projectmayhem

User45701 wrote:

here sorry im busy in work so if this was posted already im sorry.
This is a good thing is it not?

Pubs = pay staff cheeper
Customer = Cheaper prices
Bar Staff = More Tips = WITHOUT TAX so they will actually end up with more money as long as people are willing to tip them everyone wins

check america as to why that doesn't work. bar/restaurant workers get about $2/hr and rely on tips alone to supplement their wage. that pressure has forced two or three protest groups to try and get publicans and employers to pay minimum wage, and forget the tips idea.

mikedragon32

As someone who worked in the bar trade for over 10 years, this idea is just wrong on so many levels.

There isn't a tipping culture in Irish pubs, at least not to the extent that one could rely on them for an income. What FitzGerald is suggesting is a massive shift in Irish social culture. It would be easier to change the flow of the Liffy.

Revenue would require barstaff in a situation where tipping is the norm to fill out a self declaration of income (possibly even a Form12).

FitzGerald himself admits that this proposal may cost the consumer more money. Is he trying to drive customers from his pubs. The publicans' organisations have been crying for ages that their business is suffering. One of the reasons for this is the cost of a night out. Do we really want to pay even more?

Lastly do you really want to hear a schmaltzy "Have a nice day" everytime you go to the bar?

Doodee

tom dunne wrote:

Yes, by focussing on what's in it for them, they know they can achieve this by ensuring you get good service.



Is it wrong to expect proper service?

How many times have you had a pint literally thrown at you in a pub in Ireland? Granted, there are decent barstaff out there, but there are also a percentage of tossers too. Ever had to return a pint? Nothing irritates me more than a returned pint put to the side, so some other poor gobsite can be served it later in the night.

I bet your the type who tips the gorgeous barmaid with the smile and hip shake but is too busy staring at her the next time to notice the polite barman givng you a decent pint.

This is such utter bull****, I've grown up in a Pub, worked in a busy temple bar one and also helped manage it I can can bring up and example of how ignorant the customers are based purely on what happened last night alone.
Guy is polite and nice and compliments my work, ethics and performance, tips me decent enough (roughly 3e by the end of the night which is very decent) however, as soon as the bar stopped serving at 2.30am the typical pleading and shock of why he cant get just one more comes into play. A just out of the washer Drip tray is placed below the taps upside down as is procedure and as soon as the back is turned a wad of Guinness is poured, By whom I wonder. 2 minutes later I turn around to find him trying to pour himself a drink. Im far from polite when someone takes the piss with me and im not a nice person when pissed off.

Another thing people seem to forget is that if the entire bar is lined up with customers 3 rows deep, Whistling and Calling and shouting and arm waving isn't appreciated, this especially goes for the whistling, we are not ****ing dogs being beckoned cause we are off sniffing another dogs arse. and theres no point saying clear and within ear shot "Ahhh, Four ****s sake, hes fooking terrible" when he/she is by themselves behind the bar. Thats managements fault not the bar staffs.

wither or not you people realize it, people (probably YOU) loose all manners, co-ordination and respect towards others when you have had a few jars, and to be quite honest if the bar staff are being rude to you then maybe you should start looking at yourself and not blame them, ever wonder why there are mirrors behind bars?

Bar work is tough, its not as easy as a lot of people think, especially if its a nightclub or busy city center bar. Theres a lot of pressure on bar staff to perform. And yes, there are ignorant and disrespectful barmen out there that don't deserve any tips or even a job, but quite often its the ones who are polite and know how Guinness should be served who get undue **** of the greater public.

I think that the tipping idea would benefit smaller pubs as well. 5 small family run hotels have closed down in Galway in the past 6 months due to lack of commerce and high staff wages, builders are getting tax benefits for making behemoth sized hotels and employing the fresh out of college "new age" managers with no experience on how the place should be run. As soon as these tax benefits are revoked they can close the hotels and just convert them into apartments and make even more money.
The smoking ban has caused massive problems with a lot of pubs down the country. some of them are down to a quarter profit on what they should be earning. and if you remember that inheritance is taxed as is all income and the only ROI is Vat relief you'd know the scales are highly unbalanced towards the smaller businesses.

Oh, and for those of you that are not in the know, the profit margin on pints is a hell of alot less than on spirits, so unless you own a pub that can hold a large quantity of Kegs and spend enough to get the brewery deals then it is actually a very generous offer to knock 20% off.
Yes, some Pub landlords will make a killing off of it, but like anything there are those who will get rich and those who will have life made easier.



My $0.02

rugbug86

do we not just end up paying the same for drinks if we've to tip generously???

JoeSchmoe

I despise the tipping in the US, esp in the bars/nightclubs and "the barman might buy you a round if you tip well" culture.

I was in a club in Chicago, that were doing a special on Cocktails, Long Island Iced teas, two for 8 dollars, Got two drinks, gave the barman a ten, a 2 dollar tip, grand. Got back to the table and had a drink, the glass was basically filled with ice and had some coke (I'm not sure of the contents of a LIIT) filling the few gaps. One suck on the straw and the glass was empty.

My girlfriend, who had been in another part of the club, arrived with two more LIITs and they were the same, I went to the barman to complain and before I got to him he gave me an "another round" gesture and he had two drinks ready for by the time I reached him (obviously preprepared as it was a popular promotion)

I said the last two rounds were piss weak and he said "Don't worry buddy, these will make up for it" I took the drinks (paying for them though) back to the table, took a sip and nearly gagged, they were straight alcohol, no mixture, no "Cocktail"

SO basically the barman was testing us out, seeing if we tipped, if we did the next drink will have the alcohol missing from the last.

I was later talking to a barman friend of a friend and he said it was common practice and always give the barman a big tip 5-10 dollars at the start to ensure good service and "good" drinks throughtout the night.

If I pay for a drink I want the drink, service doesn't come into it but in the US, your tip gets you more than just good service and your lack of tips gets you a lot less than just a grumpy barman. That kind of thinking can stay in the states

A long island iced tea is 5 shots with a dash of coke for colouring...
my experience was that it was extremely strong...

that does suck though. Let it stay in the states. I've hardly money to be paying people's wages for them.

Tazz T

Doodee wrote:

Another thing people seem to forget is that if the entire bar is lined up with customers 3 rows deep,

And there's a very good point. Why would anyone tip to queue 3 rows deep for twenty minutes for a pint. I'd rather stay at home.

I have no problem tipping if the drink is brought to my table. After all, isn't that 'service'.

The whole thing is ridiculous publican bull****. Reduce the price of a pint by 20%. We'll see 20c off if we're lucky and we'll be expected to tip a euro so as not to look mean and when it comes to the next annual hike on the pint, they'll say 10% is a small hike as we droppedit by 20% 6 months ago.

If he really wanted to drop the price of the pint he'd be happy to welcome a bit of real competition into the Irish market like JD Wetherspoon without going running to the Vintner's Association to moan about outsiders selling cut price Guinness.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

Doodee

Tazz T wrote:

And there's a very good point. Why would anyone tip to queue 3 rows deep for twenty minutes for a pint. I'd rather stay at home.

I have no problem tipping if the drink is brought to my table. After all, isn't that 'service'.

Cause the bar person is doing their best to accommodate everyone.
They are behind the bar by themselves trying to do their job, but you can only see your own hindrance at having wait to get what you want. if yee all stayed at home then there would be no queues.

FlutterinBantam

The Scientist wrote:

people would only ride the system anyway... the Irish especially!
When i was J1-ing 2 yrs ago we used to go on rounds to save on tipping bar staff... You'd find yourself coming away from the bar with 4btls of bud light and 2 jack daniels and leaving $1 on the counter. Job!

You might have saved on tipping ,but if you checked the bar receipts they charge more in some places to serve more than one drink.So maybe you were not quite as smart as you thought you were.;)

po0k

Pesky kids, taking all the seats.

poobum

RuggieBear wrote:

don't most staff get minimum wage... how would he reduce costs if he still has to pay that anyway

the pines pub(templeogue/greenhills area) only pays its lounge staff 7 euro per hour, under min wage! even though they are all 18 or older! they apparently have some loophole!

Tazz T

Doodee wrote:

Cause the bar person is doing their best to accommodate everyone.
They are behind the bar by themselves trying to do their job, but you can only see your own hindrance at having wait to get what you want. if yee all stayed at home then there would be no queues.

Exactly my point.

connundrum

Doodee wrote:

Cause the bar person is doing their best to accommodate everyone.
They are behind the bar by themselves trying to do their job, but you can only see your own hindrance at having wait to get what you want. if yee all stayed at home then there would be no queues.

Having worked (by myself) at a bar where there were customers 3 rows deep at times, I would have died with shock had I got a tip! They weren't getting the service that they paid their entrance fee for (€10-€20)

I would never go into a bar where I had to wait for more than 5-6 minutes for a drink, as I would see it as pointless. And if I had to wait for more than that because the bar was so packed then yes, I would feel sorry for the poor barperson, but I wouldn't tip. It's scabby management that has bars understaffed, and by tipping I'd feel that I'm condoning this practice.

If I get a round of drinks 5-8 (served properly) in good time and by a friendly staff member then I will always tip, because I know from experience that it is hard to get everything right when under pressure. I won't tip mediocrity.

poobum wrote:

the pines pub(templeogue/greenhills area) only pays its lounge staff 7 euro per hour, under min wage! even though they are all 18 or older! they apparently have some loophole!

Its called the illegal loophole

poobum

yep! but thats what they put up with! and its realy bad!

Flukey

When it comes to tipping, it usually the people who can best afford it that are least likely to do it and vice versa. Ask anyone who is in a job that gets tips and they'll tell you that.