imigrants driving tourists away

SimpleSam06

Let me just restate that for the hard of comprehension, immigrants are not driving the economic boom, they are sucking as much money out of it as they can while the going is good.

slipss

gary9112 wrote:

was talking to some american tourists the other day and they could not believe the amount of non irish in the country they were in shock, first off the hotel they were staying in was full of polish who could not speak proper english, they also said the waiting staff could not even get there orders right cause they could not speak good english and finally when they went to a local pub they found foreign bartenders which they told me was not what they had expected, they had the idea of walking into a irish pub and a irish bartender welcoming them and talking in his irish accent and telling them some stories with the gift of the gap, but know that was not what they encountered what they did however was some guy who could bearly speak english unpolite and rude. So in conclusion im getting the idea that with all these immigrants in the tourism industry that tourism will fall because of it, i mean why would tourists come to ireland if all they find is eastern europeans working everywhere if they wanted that they would of went to eastern europe. they came to meet irish people.

The imigants, I knew it was them, even when it was the bears, the crappy cold wet weather, the rip off prices, the way Irish people act on holliday abroad, the sh1t public transport and car rental services and the corny out of date way the Irish tourism board advertise Ireland, I knew it was them.

Red Hand

Alot of immigrants that work in Ireland are also here as tourists themselves, in part. For example, not all Central Europeans one finds at Newgrange work there.:)

Victor

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Tourism on the other hand, accounts for 20 to 25% of this country's income.

I'd love to find out how you invented those figures.
http://www.arts-sport-tourism.gov.ie/tourism/overview.html

Irish tourism is a growing economic sector with expenditure by tourists to Ireland in 2004 of almost €4.2 billion, sustaining close to 140,000 in employment.

With more than 2 million employed and GDP at €168 billion, tourism represents 7% of employment and 2.5% of GDP.

SimpleSam06

Victor wrote:

I'd love to find out how you invented those figures.
http://www.arts-sport-tourism.gov.ie/tourism/overview.htmlWith more than 2 million employed and GDP at €168 billion, tourism represents 7% of employment and 2.5% of GDP.

Hrm, I may have read it in a report stating it as a percentage of construction, which it is 20% of. Can you come up with another 4.8 billion euros anywhere else by the way? Oh yes and my report says 5.5% of GDP, which is 126.4 billion dollars according to the CIA world factbook...

Every €100 spent by a tourist in an Irish hotel generates a further €48 within the Irish economy.

In the past 10 years alone, one in every three new jobs in Ireland has resulted directly from the growth of the tourist industry.

Between full time, part time and seasonal employment, tourism provides the equivalent of 145,000 full time jobs or one in every 12 jobs in Ireland today.

Hotels and guesthouses account for 60,000 of these jobs.

Information based on research suggests that over 40 jobs are supported for every €1m of out of state tourism expenditure and 28 jobs for every €1m of domestic tourism expenditure.

Because I know that immigrants certainly aren't contributing that much. In fact, I'd be very interested to see exactly how much they do contribute, as opposed to how much money leaves the country. Tourists stay in hotels, immigrants work in them.

Victor

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Hrm, I may have read it in a report stating it as a percentage of construction, which it is 20% of.

Now, thats either BS or outright lying. Nobody expresses tourism as a percentage of construction, it would be like expressing tourism as a percentage of, say, mining.

Can you come up with another 4.8 billion euros anywhere else by the way?

I'm not particularly bothered to, seeing as you are the one inventing the figures here. Its your assertion, you need to back it up.

Oh yes and my report says 5.5% of GDP...

You are quoting from "The Events Of 2001"

Because I know that immigrants certainly aren't contributing that much. In fact, I'd be very interested to see exactly how much they do contribute, as opposed to how much money leaves the country. Tourists stay in hotels, immigrants work in them.

And Irish businesses from hotels, to food and drink manufacturers to shops and services all benefit also. Whats your point, other than a rant against immigrants?

SimpleSam06

Victor wrote:

Now, thats either BS or outright lying. Nobody expresses tourism as a percentage of construction, it would be like expressing tourism as a percentage of, say, mining.

I'd strongly advise against calling me a liar, sunshine. The article was on the relative merits of the two industries to the Irish economy, so expressing one as a percentage of the other makes perfect sense.

Victor wrote:

I'm not particularly bothered to, seeing as you are the one inventing the figures here. Its your assertion, you need to back it up.

Am I inventing figures victor? The Central Statistics Office might disagree.

Victor wrote:

You are quoting from "The Events Of 2001"

The more up to date CSO link should sate your lust for statistics.

Victor wrote:

And Irish businesses from hotels, to food and drink manufacturers to shops and services all benefit also. Whats your point, other than a rant against immigrants?

Did you read the title of the thread?

Terry

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Let me just restate that for the hard of comprehension, immigrants are not driving the economic boom, they are sucking as much money out of it as they can while the going is good.

how exactly do you come to that conclusion?
seriously. I really want to know.
I've been beating up Polish people for the sake of it. I'd actually like a good reason to do it, you know, so i can use it in court.
something like 'hey, they're just here sponging off us, the bastards. we have a right to kick their asses. it's not like Irish people travelled the world and sponged off other thriving economies when Ireland was a piss poor country. damn goobacks'.

SimpleSam06

julep wrote:

how exactly do you come to that conclusion?
seriously. I really want to know.
I've been beating up Polish people for the sake of it. I'd actually like a good reason to do it, you know, so i can use it in court.
something like 'hey, they're just here sponging off us, the bastards. we have a right to kick their asses. it's not like Irish people travelled the world and sponged off other thriving economies when Ireland was a piss poor country. damn goobacks'.

Eh how did you extend what I said to physically assaulting immigrants? This isn't a racial issue, its an economic issue.

Okay let me try it this way. You say emigrants are driving the economic boom. How, exactly, besides cheap labour? And if you want your own servant class, well I don't know what to say to you.

The construction boom and resultant tax bonanza covers a multitude of sins, but thats not going to last. Fair enough, I got the 20% of the economy due to tourism wrong, but that was, as I explained, an honest misunderstanding. Tourism still comprises a very significant element of the Irish economy, and that will get far more significant when the magic construction fairy dust dries up.

And comparisons to the Irish going abroad are disingenuous at best.

Victor

SimpleSam06 wrote:

I'd strongly advise against calling me a liar, sunshine.

Now, now I suggested you were either engaging in bull sh!t or a lying. All you came back with was a sudden bull sh!t recollection.

I got the 20% of the economy due to tourism wrong, but that was, as I explained, an honest misunderstanding.

O RLY?

SimpleSam06

Victor wrote:

Now, now I suggested you were either engaging in bull sh!tter or a lying. All you cam back with was a sudden bull sh!t recollection.

The old English isn't the best there, is it Victor? Well, what, it was as constructive as anything you just blathered. Indeed...

I'll tell you what, we can talk about it again when the economy hits €168 billion gdp...

Victor

SimpleSam06 wrote:

The old English isn't the best there, is it Victor? Well, what, it was as constructive as anything you just blathered. Indeed...

Ah yes, pick on my speeling that I didn't get to correct because of a browser crash. Big and intelligent.

I'll tell you what, we can talk about it again when the economy hits €168 billion gdp...

Ahem

GDP at current market prices (€m)
2005 161,163
2006 175,625

Terry

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Eh how did you extend what I said to physically assaulting immigrants? This isn't a racial issue, its an economic issue.

Okay let me try it this way. You say emigrants are driving the economic boom. How, exactly, besides cheap labour? And if you want your own servant class, well I don't know what to say to you.

The construction boom and resultant tax bonanza covers a multitude of sins, but thats not going to last. Fair enough, I got the 20% of the economy due to tourism wrong, but that was, as I explained, an honest misunderstanding. Tourism still comprises a very significant element of the Irish economy, and that will get far more significant when the magic construction fairy dust dries up.

And comparisons to the Irish going abroad are disingenuous at best.

ok. i'll switch my sarcasm keyboard off.

here's what i would like to know.

what is your problem with immigrants coming to this country and making as much money as they can while the going is good?
Irish people have, for centuries, done the exact same thing.
most of us have relatives in America and britain and then there are those of us with relatives in non english speaking countries. are they leeches on the economies of said countries, or are they just there to make a few quid?

the simple fact of the matter is, we, as Irish people are the last race in the world who can complain about immigrants considering our history.
yes, we weere pretty much forced out out of here by outside forces in the distant past, but that is no longer an issue. things have changed. we are now richer than our neighbour. the grass is now greener on this side. it's time to return the favours that others have given us and allow anyone willing to work here into this country.
got a problem with that?

SimpleSam06

Victor wrote:

Ah yes, pick on my speeling that I didn't get to correct because of a browser crash. Big and intelligent.

Well, maybe not. But it was funny.

Victor wrote:

Ahem

Ahem...
See that first google result for "gdp Ireland"? That says $126,400,000,000. Now, while its possible that I may be engaging in a bull sh!tter or possibly a lying, I think you can see where I got my statistics from. They might not be right, but they were a reasonable source to work from. Oh, and its a bullshitter, something I'd rather you didn't call me, if its all the same to you. Not that any of this invalidates my point.

SimpleSam06

julep wrote:

it's time to return the favours that others have given us and allow anyone willing to work here into this country.
got a problem with that?

Yup, and heres why. We don't have vast riches and wealth, the country is not awash with cash. It is awash with debt, built up over the period of low interest rates. Thats another reason why victor's exciting GDP is misleading. So we aren't rich, we merely have the appearance of being so.

Secondly, we don't owe jobs to anyone. If you take the approach that we do because of our past, you may as well start talking what else we owe to a few other countries because of our past. The actions of our ancestors should not be made detrimental to the lives of our descendants. So that argument is just not working.

Thirdly, my own girlfriend is an immigrant, although not Polish.

And fourthly, which I feel is the most important factor, immigrants keep the wages depressed for the low skilled and semi skilled sectors, and are willing to work in terrible conditions, and in the IT sector. Thats known in a lot of circles as the backdoor to Europe. Anyone with an IT qualification can get into Ireland. This makes conditions for the actual natives of the country much worse. Now while you can get away with it in a massive continent state like the US, you won't be able to pull it off in a miniscule country like Ireland.

I posted originally in response to this:

senordingdong wrote:

I'm saying that what the foreign workforce is delievering is far more important, and is at the moment, being prioritised. Rightly so I say.

And it wasn't meant to turn into an anti-immigrant rant, nor indeed has it, I hope, I am just pointing out that we don't require immigrants, and tourism should be prioritised more. Knee jerk reactionism on anyone's part is not good.

Terry

SimpleSam06 wrote:

And fourthly, which I feel is the most important factor, immigrants keep the wages depressed for the low skilled and semi skilled sectors, and are willing to work in terrible conditions, and in the IT sector. Thats known in a lot of circles as the backdoor to Europe. Anyone with an IT qualification can get into Ireland. This makes conditions for the actual natives of the country much worse. Now while you can get away with it in a massive continent state like the US, you won't be able to pull it off in a miniscule country like Ireland.

I think it has been about 3 yuears now. yeah, about 3 years of regular use of internet message boards.
I would like to think that this qualifies me to spot the stereotypical person from each genre of internet user.
Now I may be wrong, but I see here an IT professional who cannot get a job and is blaming immigints for this particular problem.
My advice on this would b to get better qualifications and try harder in interviews. also, stop being greedy and looking for so much money. probably fall on deaf ears though...
meh.

SimpleSam06

Hahah, actually I was just poking around there and I came across a 2001 RTE article trumpeting Ireland's "lowest debt level in the EU", and then compared it one from 2006, "Corporate debt level highest in euro zone", and "Household debt has risen sharply and amounted to 120 percent of disposable income at end-2004." Its interesting to see such a graphic difference...

SimpleSam06

julep wrote:

Now I may be wrong, but I see here an IT professional who cannot get a job and is blaming immigints for this particular problem.
My advice on this would b to get better qualifications and try harder in interviews. also, stop being greedy and looking for so much money. probably fall on deaf ears though...

I'm not about to tell you what I do for a living Julep. It is lucrative (made a grand and a half last week), but thats as far as I'll say. Ta for the advice though.

Terry

SimpleSam06 wrote:

I'm not about to tell you what I do for a living Julep. It is lucrative (made a grand and a half last week), but thats as far as I'll say. Ta for the advice though.

you made €1,500 last week and you are bitching about immigrants.
seriously, dude. you have issues.
the average immigrant makes minimum wage ( €7.35 an hour or thereabouts.). you have little to complain about.

SimpleSam06

julep wrote:

you made €1,500 last week and you are bitching about immigrants.
seriously, dude. you have issues.
the average immigrant makes minimum wage ( €7.35 an hour or thereabouts.). you have little to complain about.

So, first I am too poor, now I am too rich. Sorry about that, whats the cutoff wage for being able to care about your country? The last two posts there were more or less direct attacks on me as a person, with no bearing on the points I was making.

Jus' sayin'.

Victor

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Ahem...
See that first google result for "gdp Ireland"? That says $126,400,000,000. Now, while its possible that I may be engaging in a bull sh!tter or possibly a lying, I think you can see where I got my statistics from. They might not be right, but they were a reasonable source to work from. Oh, and its a bullshitter, something I'd rather you didn't call me, if its all the same to you. Not that any of this invalidates my point.

Ireland — GDP: $ 126,400,000,000
According to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html

If you looked at you link, you would realise that figure is from 2001.


2001 RTE article

Irish debt level now EU's second lowest

July 19, 2001 16:52
The national debt has fallen by 3.3 billion euro and now stands at 36.5 billion euro

2001 RTE article

Corporate debt level highest in euro zone
While many economists are getting hot under the collar over how much we are spending on mortgages and credit cards as private sector borrowing heads for the €300 billion mark, the risks associated with debt in the corporate sector have largely escaped the spotlight. Login or subscribe for more.

and

"Household debt has risen sharply and amounted to 120 percent of disposable income at end-2004.

Do you understand the difference between national debt, corporate debt and household debt?

Ickle Magoo

gary9112 wrote:

was talking to some american tourists the other day and they could not believe the amount of non irish in the country they were in shock, first off the hotel they were staying in was full of polish who could not speak proper english, they also said the waiting staff could not even get there orders right cause they could not speak good english and finally when they went to a local pub they found foreign bartenders which they told me was not what they had expected, they had the idea of walking into a irish pub and a irish bartender welcoming them and talking in his irish accent and telling them some stories with the gift of the gap, but know that was not what they encountered what they did however was some guy who could bearly speak english unpolite and rude. So in conclusion im getting the idea that with all these immigrants in the tourism industry that tourism will fall because of it, i mean why would tourists come to ireland if all they find is eastern europeans working everywhere if they wanted that they would of went to eastern europe. they came to meet irish people.

Yes, I can imagine the Americans would be shocked...when I visited America there wasn't a host of Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Brits, IRISH in their droves, etc, etc...it was all native American Indians living in teepees & riding small piebald ponies. Ahhhh, when reality meets fanstasy, eh?!. :rolleyes:

I can barely understand a lot of Irish people, I don't see why being of a different nationality would make any difference tbh - just look at your post for starters!

Immigrants are a big part of any successful country, the Americans know that more than anyone (Irish popping over there to make their fortune, anyone?) - I can't imagine anyone is put off by immigrants in Ireland. Last time I looked leprechauns, barmen who tip their hat with a "Top 'o' the mornin' to ya", smiling Irish eyes & other such twee were pretty thin on the ground anyway.

Hobbes

I'm actually amazed there are still American tourists coming here as it is currently insanely expensive for them to do so.

I would say thats more likely to drive them away then anything else.

Hobbes

Hagar wrote:

I imagine only visitors/immigrants from EU nations would automatically be legal, people from other countries might just tick the holiday to simplify travel.

Not sure how that would simplify anything tbh. At best you could stay a couple of months then they come looking for you. Marking down as "Work" might not get you into trouble if you needed to leave the country and come back again but holiday would.

Going to Britain is not the same thing tbh as someone outside the EU.

See the problem isn't when your over there, its when the time expires or you need to leave the country it becomes a problem. I know of one guy years ago tried to get around getting a visa in America by just going on holiday every 3 months to the US. He got away with it for 9 months after which point they refused to let him into the country again without a proper visa. That took him 6 months, meanwhile he was still paying rent in the US.

Hobbes

SimpleSam06 wrote:

they are sucking as much money out of it as they can while the going is good.

There is one thing I learnt from the dot.com

Anyone with a brain will be sucking as much money out of whatever comes along as they can while the going is good. Meanwhile those that get fuked over will blame whatever demographic they aren't.

Be they immigrant, Irish, Extraterrestial, etc.

The majority of peoples pay packet is on Rent. Next up utilities. Both of which are dominately owned by Irish companies/people.

People who go on about Immigrant X is leading the life-o-reilly is kidding themselves. If it was so much money to be made I'd be learning Polish or Chinese now so I could take some of this money from our country.

Sponge Bob

The ones who know the business and hire people with no english for yankee customer facing roles are Irish after all, dopes.

SimpleSam06

Victor wrote:

If you looked at you link, you would realise that figure is from 2001.


2001 RTE article

2001 RTE article
and

Do you understand the difference between national debt, corporate debt and household debt?

Revenge of the 5am victor. The article that was from 2001 I said, haha, look, this is from 2001! First google result for GDP Ireland was as I pointed out. The main thrust of what I was saying was not, however, the statistic, but in your ride-of-the-valkyrie-like run for the sun, you missed that. Well done, good man. Now, lets see if you can grasp this nugget; do you think that supports or detracts from my point that the country is awash in debt? A one word answer would be fine. And if the answer is "supports", do you think it might be possible that was the reason I posted it?

Leave it till the morning to post next time, trust me. Honestly between your dubious english skills, julep's hungarian-british website and the other fella toting his russian-built driving website, I'm starting to feel a bit isolated around here.

SimpleSam06

Hobbes wrote:

People who go on about Immigrant X is leading the life-o-reilly is kidding themselves. If it was so much money to be made I'd be learning Polish or Chinese now so I could take some of this money from our country.

Absoloutely, but no one is saying they are getting rich. Someone said we couldn't do without them, I just pointed out we can do just fine without them, and in fact they are more of a liablity than an asset.

Gurgle

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Yes, I can imagine the Americans would be shocked...when I visited America there wasn't a host of Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Brits, IRISH in their droves, etc, etc...it was all native American Indians living in teepees & riding small piebald ponies. Ahhhh, when reality meets fanstasy, eh?!. :rolleyes:

Theres probably more Americans 'staying away' from Ireland because the peace process hasn't been finalized yet and we're still on the brink of civil war than for any other reason.

Jumpy

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Yup, and heres why. We don't have vast riches and wealth, the country is not awash with cash. It is awash with debt, built up over the period of low interest rates. Thats another reason why victor's exciting GDP is misleading. So we aren't rich, we merely have the appearance of being so.

Secondly, we don't owe jobs to anyone. If you take the approach that we do because of our past, you may as well start talking what else we owe to a few other countries because of our past. The actions of our ancestors should not be made detrimental to the lives of our descendants. So that argument is just not working.

Thirdly, my own girlfriend is an immigrant, although not Polish.

And fourthly, which I feel is the most important factor, immigrants keep the wages depressed for the low skilled and semi skilled sectors, and are willing to work in terrible conditions, and in the IT sector. Thats known in a lot of circles as the backdoor to Europe. Anyone with an IT qualification can get into Ireland. This makes conditions for the actual natives of the country much worse. Now while you can get away with it in a massive continent state like the US, you won't be able to pull it off in a miniscule country like Ireland.

I posted originally in response to this:


And it wasn't meant to turn into an anti-immigrant rant, nor indeed has it, I hope, I am just pointing out that we don't require immigrants, and tourism should be prioritised more. Knee jerk reactionism on anyone's part is not good.

Its due to a shortage of skilled irish IT workers, and when you say anyone who has an IT qualification can get into Ireland I will call bull**** on you there.
Immigrants coming in on ICT visas do not lower the salaries, in fact they raise it, no skilled IT worker would have worked on the joke salaries Ireland used to offer for those in the IT industries.