AH and the Church.....why?

Dave!

scouser.tommy wrote:

Right, well, just interchange 'faith' there with 'beliefs or opinions' and you might see why you've no reason, not without being unashamedly hypocritical, to expect anyone else to respect any of yours, if that's your thinking.

You don't have to respect others' opinions. If you thought they had merit then you'd be likely to believe them yourself or some corruption of them. Respecting others' right to believe whatever crap they want is a different thing though.

I think gay-hating is stupid, and I don't have any respect for that belief/opinion. But if someone wants to have that opinion, they can knock themselves out.

Same with religion.

And indeed if someone doesn't respect my own beliefs that's fine.

scouser.tommy wrote:

Sounds fair enough then. I've heard many better reasons for theism than the ones you've just cited but TBH I don't get into that anymore on forums. Unecessary and unproductive hassle, but in my experience many other people do have pretty decent intellectual reasons and logical think ing behind their theism or whatever they believe.

Am I mistaken or were you a Christian until relatively recently?

pbsuxok1znja4r

I was never full-blown but I thought I was, yeah. But I've realised it's all too unknowable for me. I can't logically reconcile most of it, etc etc. Now I just know that I don't know...skeptical, I guess. Agnosticism FTW, for now at least.

I agree on not respecting crap opinions, I think there comes a point for everyone where, whether they admit it or not, they only really 'respect' the opinions of those who agree them.

It still pisses me off though when people think they are so sure of what they 'know' that they can completely attack or deride anyone elses beliefs. I see this happen too often. Nothing is that clear cut, like.

HQvhs

The impression I've gotten from the so-called atheists and Church bashers from this thread so far, in my opinion, is that they are all very militant and narrow-minded in their views and seem to be forcing people to accept them. I've been in secondary level education for the past few years and while we've had regular religion classes we have not concentrated on Christianity at all. We have studied Buddhism and Islam and other religions and all of them teach acceptance and peace, it is people warping the message and using it as an excuse for power or wealth that are bad.
For example, Northern Ireland, as we all know, was never about religion or who's God was better than others. It was about taking land and paying off soldiers and Lords back in England and Scotland. Religion is just an excuse. It's the same with Anglicanism, the Pope was interfering with Henry VIII and he just broke away from the church. There are many examples of this.
All priests don't abuse children, but the minority who do aren't preaching any message in the Bible, they're behaving in their own sick twisted way.
I have never had any religion imposed on me.
There is proof that Jesus existed. There are the Gospels, the rest of the Bibles, Roman Records, and other records from the time from Babylon etc. There is proof that the so-called star of Bethlehem existed; it was a conjunction of the planets Jupiter and Saturn.
A lot of people posting here so adamantly that God, Jesus, Muhammad etc don't exist or that the Catholic Church and Religion are evil seem to have quite a lack of proof other than the "priests abused kids therefore Catholicism is evil" and "They're brainwashing our kids", and have no links or anything other than hearsay.
I'm not saying whether or not God exists, I’m not particularly religious in any way but I think that the Church has done a lot of good on the past and recent years, such as founding hundreds of schools around the world providing education for the masses so they don't get brainwashed and taken advantage of by by governments. And Jesus' message was undoubtedly a good message and is a good one to teach children. His real message, as opposed to one of do whatever you want is probably what we need.

Sam Vimes

Tha Gopher wrote:

tbh if theyre stupid enough to listen to the health advice of a holy man rather than a scientist its nobodys fault but their own. Anyway, I would think the problem in Africa is the cost on condoms being too much, rather than caring what the church thinks.

95% of the world's population believes in a deity of some form*. you can't say they all deserve to die for their stupidity.

*i got that figure from the movie contact. it may be inaccurate

and its not the cost of condoms. its far cheaper to give out free condoms than pay for aids medicine for millions of people so they're given out free. but the church tells them not to use them

Tha Gopher wrote:

Few points there

1- Didnt the church give up the "unbaptised babies in limbo/hell" bull years ago?

in fact limbo was done away with altogether a few months back

Tha Gopher wrote:

3- Stoning? Isnt the church against death in all circumstances these days?

Leviticus 20:2: Tell the Israelites: Anyone, whether an Israelite or an alien residing in Israel, who gives any of his offspring to Molech shall be put to death. Let his fellow citizens stone him.

Leviticus 20:9: Anyone who curses his father or mother shall be put to death; since he has cursed his father or mother, he has forfeited his life.

Leviticus 20:10: If a man commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.


Leviticus 20:11: If a man disgraces his father by lying with his father's wife, both the man and his stepmother shall be put to death; they have forfeited their lives.

Leviticus 20:15: If a man has carnal relations with an animal, the man shall be put to death, and the animal shall be slain.


Leviticus 24:14: Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.

Leviticus 24:16 He who blasphemes the name of Yahweh, he shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him: the foreigner as well as the native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.

Leviticus 24:23 And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.

and so on and so on

moneyman wrote:

I certainly believe in God and I defenitly don't "need to create a fairy tail vision of what comes after". If God didn't exist, then how was the universe created? There has to have been a higher power, life is far too complicated to have just happened. The universe was created by a higher power, whether you want to believe it is up to you, but it is a fact. Just because scientists can't prove it doesn't mean it's not fact..

ah the old intelligent design argument. you're not unique in that belief you know. it was widely debunked as pseudo science years ago. i think family guy said it best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7I73DNguRI&feature=PlayList&p=DF9C4DA966DA8036&index=8

and even if it was 100% proven that some higher being created the universe that in no way suggests that i have to do everything a 2000 year old book says. proving the existence of a creator is very different to proving the existence of the catholic god

JC 2K3

HQvhs wrote:

The impression I've gotten from the so-called atheists and Church bashers from this thread so far, in my opinion, is that they are all very militant and narrow-minded in their views and seem to be forcing people to accept them. I've been in secondary level education for the past few years and while we've had regular religion classes we have not concentrated on Christianity at all. We have studied Buddhism and Islam and other religions and all of them teach acceptance and peace, it is people warping the message and using it as an excuse for power or wealth that are bad.

Well there are idiot atheists as well as idiot religious people, you're being unfair by calling all atheists as church bashers and tarring the non-religious with the same brush.

HQvhs wrote:

All priests don't abuse children, but the minority who do aren't preaching any message in the Bible, they're behaving in their own sick twisted way.
I have never had any religion imposed on me.

You probably have had Catholicism imposed on you, not very strongly or forcibly in any way, but you made your communion and confirmation at a young age when you had no real idea what you were doing right?

Priests abusing children shows how unnatural celibacy is and the potential mind warping Catholicism, when organised in such a strict way, can provoke. Although I agree that they aren't a good representation of the Catholic church as a whole.

HQvhs wrote:

There is proof that Jesus existed. There are the Gospels, the rest of the Bibles, Roman Records, and other records from the time from Babylon etc. There is proof that the so-called star of Bethlehem existed; it was a conjunction of the planets Jupiter and Saturn.

There's proof certain biblical events happened, but there's no proof to say, for example, that Jesus ressurected from the dead.

HQvhs wrote:

A lot of people posting here so adamantly that God, Jesus, Muhammad etc don't exist or that the Catholic Church and Religion are evil seem to have quite a lack of proof other than the "priests abused kids therefore Catholicism is evil" and "They're brainwashing our kids", and have no links or anything other than hearsay.

No, that's totally wrong. Christian Doctrine is not without hate and discrimination.

HQvhs wrote:

I'm not saying whether or not God exists, I’m not particularly religious in any way but I think that the Church has done a lot of good on the past and recent years, such as founding hundreds of schools around the world providing education for the masses so they don't get brainwashed and taken advantage of by by governments. And Jesus' message was undoubtedly a good message and is a good one to teach children. His real message, as opposed to one of do whatever you want is probably what we need.

I've made that sentence bold because, quite frankly, it is totally without basis. Why would a government's brainwashing be any worse than the church's?

Jesus's message a good one? Discrimination against homosexuality? Discrimination against women? Unhealthy, guilt-filled teachings about masturbation and sex? There's a load of other fúcked up stuff in the bible also(Leviticus in particular). Catholics tend to teach the sugar-coated, non-controversial aspects of Jesus's message in order to gain acceptance and followers, but underneath it all it's pretty heavy and scary stuff.

I don't have a problem with people believing in it, I just wouldn't want my kids taught it in any form.

Catari Jaguar

HQvhs: You're dead right. A person maketh sense upon the boards

JC 2K3 wrote:

Jesus's message a good one? Discrimination against homosexuality? Discrimination against women? Unhealthy, guilt-filled teachings about masturbation and sex? There's a load of other fúcked up stuff in the bible also(Leviticus in particular). Catholics tend to teach the sugar-coated, non-controversial aspects of Jesus's message in order to gain acceptance and followers, but underneath it all it's pretty heavy and scary stuff.

I don't have a problem with people believing in it, I just wouldn't want my kids taught it in any form.

When does Jesus ever say that? What has Leviticus got to do with Jesus? Is Leviticus even preaching or is it merely an account of laws at that times and punishment. I mean isn't stoning still used in a lot of Islamic countries as punishement?? Leviticus was 100s of years before JC appeared on the scene, to END ALL THAT CRAP! To spread a message of good will, and therefore kicking up quite a fuss by challenging the system. All Jesus ever mentions is parables. Lovely stories about lost sheep and the Prodigal son. But yea... Must. not. tell. stories. to kids. they. might. have. head. explosion. from. brainwash!!

Also, the Catholic Church doesn't sugar coat anything. They pick apart, interpret and generally use the Bible for their own cause. Anything about sex being immoral (except homosexuality) is more than likely a catholic teaching. Nothing to do with the bible. seems you have that backwards. THEY are out to scaremonger and control, at least up til the 70's. and THAT would be why myself and many people are against the Church and organised religion in general and not in the personal/ private belief in God himself.

JC 2K3 wrote:

There's proof certain biblical events happened, but there's no proof to say, for example, that Jesus ressurected from the dead.

Thats what the Christian/ Catholic/ C of I.... FAITH is based on. The resurrection. You don't need proof. it's a belief.

All you bible detectives might want to read a book called "Who is Jesus?" if you're serious about arguing and pulling bible apart etc. I had to study it in college, makes for some interesting arguments with my RE lecturer

Has anyone here ever read or studied the Bible apart from googling it now to back up some points? And this thread is about the CHURCH, not Bible, or issue of God or questioning Jesus's existence. it's what is your issue with the church. It is a separate thing you know.

JC 2K3

Lil Kitten wrote:

Ah shure thats the OLD testament. We good catholics follow the NT and the teachings of Christ.

AFAIK Catholicism fully accepts the Old Testament as part of its doctrine. Anyone considering themselves "Catholics" who don't believe in the Old Testament should really consider converting to a form of Protestantism/Christian sect that better adheres to their beliefs.

Lil Kitten wrote:

When does Jesus ever say that? What has Leviticus got to do with Jesus? It was 100s of years before JC appeard on the scene, to END ALL THAT CRAP! All Jesus ever mentions is parables. Lovely stories about lost sheep and the Prodigal son. But yea... Must. not. tell. stories. to kids. they. might. have. head. explosion. from. brainwash!!

To end all "that crap"? Then why does the Catholic church fully endorse the Old Testament? Jesus taught to obey torah, the Torah includes Leviticus and other OT books.

Like I said, the sugar-coated, "lovely" stories are simply the surface, really Christianity is not like this at all, although a lot of Christians tend to reject the heavier aspects of it:
Cafeteria Christianity, anyone?

Lil Kitten wrote:

Thats what the Christian/ Catholic/ C of I.... FAITH is based on. The resurrection. You don't need proof. it's a belief.

No ****, that comment was a response to someone who thought atheists reject that a person called Jesus existed.

Lil Kitten wrote:

All you bible detectives might want to read a book called "Who is Jesus?" if you're serious about arguing and pulling bible apart etc. I had to study it in college, makes for some interesting arguments with my RE lecturer

Sounds interesting.

o1s1n

There are many many good reasons to "strongly dislike" the church (the word hate is a little much) .
The biggest simply being its hypocrisy. Look at the vast wealth of the Vatican. Do they use it to help the sick and needy? No, they send over the odd missionary. To tell people to not use contraception and suddenly, we have an outbreak of aids. Yes, this is the type of thing modern society needs.

They formed relations with the Nazi party so hopefully they'd be left alone in case it came to power. (makes me sick in the stomach whenever i think of this)

Matthew 23:9, "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for one is your
Father, He who is in heaven."

If you listen to the bible, and scriptures such as this, all glory is meant to be aimed at god. But no, instead they kneel before the pope and kiss his hand. They worship him almost as a deity. They have an intricate hierarchy set up. Fighting for positions. This is all totally unbiblical. Pharisaical in fact.

The bible clearly condones Idolatry. Yet what does the church allow? Bowing before crucifixes, images of saints. Worshipping saints.
Do you remember what god supposedly did to people practicing idolatry when Moses came back from Mt Sinai with the Ten Commandments? he didn't join in with their party, that's for sure.

It really is never ending. And that's only a few of their contradicitons in practices as an organization. I haven't even begun to mention the sexual abuse and other such scandal.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pro any religious belief at all. I'm quite against most in fact. I just find it amusing to see how they totally go against the principals that they supposedly base their belief on. what a joke.

Dave!

Lil Kitten wrote:

Ah shure thats the OLD testament. We good catholics follow the NT and the teachings of Christ.

You good Catholics have to follow what the Pope says, do ye not?

ie. that homosexuality is a disorder, condoms are evil, women can't be priests, and so on.....

Am I right or wrong? I didn't pay too much attention in Religion class, sorry!

Savman

Religion seems to bring out the worst in people these days (see previous 130 posts...)


Dear Lord, save me from your followers.

Catari Jaguar

yea dave, its why i dont follow the catholic church... I dont remember ever learning about catholic laws in school though, only hearsay and word of mouth on most issues. RE was all about enneagrams and sex/ drugs ed.

Catari Jaguar

I assume most of you posters won't be celebrating christmas this year no?

Nevyn

Oh really, so my children coming home spouting chirstmas carols and asking if they died would they be in hell as they are not baptised was all just in my imagination, Cheers lil kiten.


In my household we will be celebrating Yule, the winter solatice and the return of the Sun.

Dave!

Lil Kitten wrote:

yea dave, its why i dont follow the catholic church... I dont remember ever learning about catholic laws in school though, only hearsay and word of mouth on most issues. RE was all about enneagrams and sex/ drugs ed.

Ah, you confused me by saying "We good Catholics..."

But yeah, you're not usually told about the bad parts of religion when you're being converted.

Lil Kitten wrote:

I assume most of you posters won't be celebrating christmas this year no?

I will yeah! As a family holiday, where we all get together, exchange gifts, then eat yummy turkey and ham and potatoes and gravy! YUM!

(not unlike the Roman festival of Saturnalia without the sacrifices)

We'll celebrate Easter too, like the majority of the country. And like I'd say the majority of the country we'll not give a thought about Jesus, except when we're in church looking at our watches thinking "Jesus, I wish this priest would hurry up so I can get back to me eggs! :eek:"

Apparantly you think that because we celebrate these ostensibly religious festivals, that "deep down"/"secretely", we actually DO believe. I'm afraid that would be ignoring the historical role of the Catholic Church and the fact that for a long long long time, Christmas has been celebrated in Ireland when the Church actually held some significance. Thus it has transcended its religious nature and become a cultural and family holiday. I'm afraid Jesus is incidental at this stage.

nesf

Thaedydal wrote:

In my household we will be celebrating Yule, the winter solatice and the return of the Sun.

Pfft, sun worship is like so late bronze age.

Nevyn

Actually you are celbrating pagan festivals if you want to split hairs about it.

http://www.e-sheep.com/Saturnalia/ NWS

Dave!

Thaedydal wrote:

Actually you are celbrating pagan festival if you want to split hairs about it.

http://www.e-sheep.com/Saturnalia/ NWS

ah, touché! Quality site, lol

DublinWriter

Lil Kitten wrote:

I assume most of you posters won't be celebrating christmas this year no?

Why certainly, just in the same way that we'll be celebrating the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ by eating as many chocolate eggs as possible.

Now funny how there's no mention of the words 'chocolate', 'eggs' or 'pope' in the bible, yet in one of Paul's Letter's to the Romans he states that a good Catholic Bishop should be a married man?

The Catholic chruch allowed preists to be married for the first 1,200 years of its existance, yet it doesn't now, unless you're a converted Anglican priest?

Oh please....

thelordofcheese

Thaedydal wrote:

Actually you are celbrating pagan festivals if you want to split hairs about it.

http://www.e-sheep.com/Saturnalia/ NWS

excellent, giant wang cookies FTW.

Thirdfox

I'm just celebrating commercialised Xmas... it's great (runs off to worship the international companies that make Christmas possible )

Savman

We're all goin to heaven lads, wheeeeeeeey

nesf

Thaedydal wrote:

Actually you are celbrating pagan festivals if you want to split hairs about it.

You mean there was a prehistoric incarnation of Hallmark mass marketing Ogham stones?

coffee_cake

I don't hate the catholic church I've just no interest in it since i'm not catholic anymore

I do find it amusing that so many people use "religious" as synonymous with "catholic", still

I assume most of you posters won't be celebrating christmas this year no?

it was originally pagan, so put that in your pipe and smoke it
we put evergreens in the house, not jesus statues

we celebrate it at home as a nice season of goodwill and gift giving
which is how i like it

pbsuxok1znja4r

Hahaha I love the way people always claim their religion's holidays 'came first' and were only adopted by other religions. Both just as meaningless, tbh.

I'll be celebrating gift-giving, goodwill and cosmic reindeer cock :rolleyes:

Nevyn

nesf wrote:

You mean there was a prehistoric incarnation of Hallmark mass marketing Ogham stones?

Yup didn't you hear ?

The translation did state,

" All your Holidays belong to us, kthxbye"

cornbb

Christianity has no right to claim christmas as christmas. In other words, people have been having a big knees-up somewhere in the middle of winter for millenia. Christians can use the opportunity to praise Jesus, I'll be using it to praise a week off work.

pbsuxok1znja4r

If my birthday is in late december and I try to celebrate that do I not have the right to claim my birthday as my birthday? There can be more than one celebration for more than one thing at one time of year, like. I don't see what any previous pagan/christian celebrations have to do with me wanting to celebrate my brithday with my friends in the middle of winter. Get. A. Clue. Cornbb

cornbb

scouser.tommy wrote:

If my birthday is in late december and I try to celebrate that do I not have the right to claim my birthday as my birthday? There can be more than one celebration for more than one thing at one time of year, like. I don't see what any previous pagan/christian celebrations have to do with me wanting to celebrate my brithday with my friends in the middle of winter. Get. A. Clue. Cornbb

What on earth are you talking about? I'm talking about the big celebration on or around the 25th December that christianity claims as its own. Birthdays and other nonrelated celebrations are an entirely different matter.

nesf

cornbb wrote:

What on earth are you talking about? I'm talking about the big celebration on or around the 25th December that christianity claims as its own. Birthdays and other nonrelated celebrations are an entirely different matter.

He is pointing out that he can claim the day as "his" day regardless of its meaning for others.

Christianity does a similar thing with the 25th of December. It's well recognised that it was originally a pagan festival. I remember being taught that in Primary School...

coffee_cake

scouser.tommy wrote:

Hahaha I love the way people always claim their religion's holidays 'came first' and were only adopted by other religions. Both just as meaningless, tbh.

I'm not even sure my religion has a holiday around then