AH and the Church.....why?

Catari Jaguar

User45701 wrote:

I do hate the catholic church but then again i hate the muslim faith just as much along with all religous views.

i just cant understand why people would be so frightened at the thought of dying they need to create a fairy tail vision of what comes after.

Religion has caused too much pain and death in mans history and i don't think it serves any useful purpose anymore.

In the past it was needed to explain things that man was too primitive to understand but with modern understanding i see no need for lies about how we where created or what will happen when we die

My sentiments exactly. I wish people would just mind their own business. And what is with Islam/ Christian/ Jews arguing and fighting over Jesus/Moses/ Mohammed? They were all sent by the same God! THAT'S who you are supposed to believe in. It's idiocy.

I also hate the fact that Catholicism is just another organised religious group! The Pope says something so we obey like unquestioning idiots. Do you not realise the Pope isn't God? Like doing away with Limbo.. Wtf? It just doesn't exist anymore. He can't decide that! THAT is my issue. Man made rules to keep you under thumb.

And why is Catholicism supposedly better than Lutheranism, Calvinism, gnosticism, protestantism etc... They're all break away groups who didn't agree and wanted their own rules. Like Catholic priests can't marry but reverends in USA can?! What was God's take on the subject eh? Squabbling little children. Just believe in God/ Jesus and say you're Christian, or just simply believe in GOD. That's the basic background!

Catari Jaguar

Thirdfox wrote:

The African situation is horrendous - Catholic Church: "Condoms don't stop AIDS...there's tiny holes that allow the virus to pass through" - WHO "Condoms are the best way to prevent AIDS during sexual intercourse" (Who's right???)

According to my cousin's sociology and anthropology lecturer: Many Africans don't belive in keeping fluids in. So they pierce the condoms themselves. they also don't believe in bandaging wounds, and allow blood flow :rolleyes: Mind boggling

CuLT

Lil Kitten wrote:

My sentiments exactly. I wish people would just mind their own business. And what is with Islam/ Christian/ Jews arguiung and fighting over Jesus/Moses/ Mohammed? They were all sent by the same God! THAT'S who you are supposed to belive in. It's idiocy.

People are idiots, we've got a lot of history documenting how stupid people are going back thousands of years.

Lil Kitten wrote:

I also hate the fact that Catholicism is just another break away group. The Pope says something so we obey like unquestioning idiots. Do you not realise the Pope isn't God? Like doing away with Limbo.. Wtf? It just doesn't exist anymore. He can't decide that! THAT is my issue. Man made rules to keep you under thumb.

In fairness, it didn't exist in the first place, as far as I'm aware. Not mentioned in the Bible.

Lil Kitten wrote:

And why is Catholicism supposedly better than Lutheranism, Calvinism, gnosticism, protestantism etc... They're all break away groups who didn't agree and wanted their own rules. Like Catholic priests can't marry but reverends in USA can?! What was God's take on the subject eh? Squabbling little children. Just believe in God/ Jesus and say you're Christian, or just simply believe in GOD. That's the basic background!

Yeah, but now you're getting into "well, I'm going to start my own branch where people aren't stupid and just follow the common sense stuff that is obvious", and it starts all over again

This is why there are multiple branches in the first place. People can't decide on an interpretation.

Catari Jaguar

There should be no picking and choosing to suit yourself and thus creating false gods from new leaders. I believe in God and Jesus. All I know of them is what is in Bible, Jesus' parables and message of love/acceptance etc, and 10 commandments. Follow them. Not some made up stupid rule by some random guy in a random break away group. If people want to make up their own religions go ahead. Just don't try to preach it to everyone. That's all I want. I personally Don't care if you follow the Church of the Holy Fonz. It's your perogative.

And for all those giving out about RE in schools, I am a student teacher. RE isn't even on the 1999 curriculum. And kids use Alive-O prog, a CHRISTIAN message book, no strict Catholicism in it. Mostly morals and feeli9ngs and how to behave in society. Kids of today are in definite need of that. It's stuff like "How would you feel in xyz situation, like when Zaccaheus was befriended by Jesus..." etc

cornbb

CuLT wrote:

People are idiots, we've got a lot of history documenting how stupid people are going back thousands of years.

Exactly, people are idiots but the individual has potential to be smart. Hence I believe people people should form their own opinions on spiritual matters rather than be dictated to.

Lil Kitten wrote:

There should be no picking and choosing to suit yourself and thus creating false gods from new leaders. I believe in God and Jesus. All I know of them is what is in Bible, Jesus' parables and message of love/acceptance etc, and 10 commandments. Follow them. Not some made up stupid rule by some random guy in a random break away group. If people want to make up their own religions go ahead. Just don't try to preach it to everyone. That's all I want. I personally Don't care if you follow the Church of the Holy Fonz. It's your perogative.

And for all those giving out about RE in schools, I am a student teacher. RE isn't even on the 1999 curriculum. And kids use Alive-O prog, a CHRISTIAN message book, no strict Catholicism in it. Mostly morals and feeli9ngs and how to behave in society. Kids of today are in definite need of that. It's stuff like "How would you feel in xyz situation, like when Zaccaheus was befriended by Jesus..." etc

I like your point of view. Although I think it might be better if kids were given general/abstract lessons in morality, I guess teaching these lessons with the support of examples of what Jesus did might deliver the point a little better. At least the move away from Catholic doctrine is a step in the right direction. I still feel that the practical monopoly held by the catholic church in irish primary schools is completely wrong though.

JC 2K3

Tha Gopher wrote:

2- The only mention of homosexuality I remember in religion class was when a teacher in about 4th year tried to teach us tolerance to gays.

A class of twenty odd 16 year old males, all of whom (afaik) were straight? Good luck.

Yeah, cos guys are naturally born with a hatred for homosexuals. :rolleyes:

CuLT

cornbb wrote:

Exactly, people are idiots but the individual has potential to be smart. Hence I believe people people should form their own opinions on spiritual matters rather than be dictated to.

Easy thing to do in a first world country. I'm sure there's some statistics somewhere backing up that religious influence is directly inverse to GDP per capita in most cases.

Good old Maslows hierarchy of needs, when the important stuff like food and shelter are taken care of, you can start to concern yourself with other matters.

moneyman

CuLT wrote:

Agreed.

"You're stupid. The fact that I can't explain how the Universe exists obviously means that God exists. It's simple logic, you idiot."

haha you're so stupid it's not even funny. Quoting something I didn't even say, what a ****. You're as stupid as the fella that said "rofl", but I should have known, sure what else can you expect from someone from Carlow (him) and a scumbag (you). If you have something intelligent to say (which I doubt) then say it, don't be making yourself look even dumber than you are. Fcuking pussy

CuLT

moneyman wrote:

haha you're so stupid it's not even funny. Quoting something I didn't even say, what a ****. You're as stupid as the fella that said "rofl", but I should have known, sure what else can you expect from someone from Carlow (him) and a scumbag (you). If you have something intelligent to say (which I doubt) then say it, don't be making yourself look even dumber than you are. Fcuking pussy

Oh dear, a fundamentalist windbag just imploded.

Giblet

Banned.

JPA

God eh?!

Russell's teapot
Russell's teapot, sometimes called the Celestial Teapot, was an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell, to refute the idea that the burden of proof lies somehow upon the sceptic to disprove the unfalsifiable claims of religion. In an article entitled Is There a God?, commissioned (but never published) by Illustrated magazine in 1952, Russell said the following:

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

In his book A Devil's Chaplain, Richard Dawkins developed the teapot theme a little further:

The reason organized religion merits outright hostility is that, unlike belief in Russell's teapot, religion is powerful, influential, tax-exempt and systematically passed on to children too young to defend themselves. Children are not compelled to spend their formative years memorizing loony books about teapots. Government-subsidized schools don't exclude children whose parents prefer the wrong shape of teapot. Teapot-believers don't stone teapot-unbelievers, teapot-apostates, teapot-heretics and teapot-blasphemers to death. Mothers don't warn their sons off marrying teapot-shiksas whose parents believe in three teapots rather than one. People who put the milk in first don't kneecap those who put the tea in first.

Similar concepts to Russell's teapot are the Invisible Pink Unicorn, and Flying Spaghetti Monster.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

Try The God Delusion

Ickle Magoo

Lil Kitten wrote:

And for all those giving out about RE in schools, I am a student teacher. RE isn't even on the 1999 curriculum. And kids use Alive-O prog, a CHRISTIAN message book, no strict Catholicism in it. Mostly morals and feeli9ngs and how to behave in society. Kids of today are in definite need of that. It's stuff like "How would you feel in xyz situation, like when Zaccaheus was befriended by Jesus..." etc

:eek: I'm an athiest & I'd be horrified if my kids were taught that. It is still enforced religious teachings, whether it be Christian or RC is irrelevant to me, they are both as bad as each other! Morality does not begin & end in religion - far from it. Perhaps priests not raping little children & the RC church not just moving them on to do in another place or religious wars not breaking out around the world, the complete end of the sectarianism up north, etc, etc, would do a better job of giving kids what they need in terms of guidance, respect, faith & morality? If I want to give my kids a good example to follow, religion is the last place I'd look!

The reason organized religion merits outright hostility is that, unlike belief in Russell's teapot, religion is powerful, influential, tax-exempt and systematically passed on to children too young to defend themselves. Children are not compelled to spend their formative years memorizing loony books about teapots. Government-subsidized schools don't exclude children whose parents prefer the wrong shape of teapot. Teapot-believers don't stone teapot-unbelievers, teapot-apostates, teapot-heretics and teapot-blasphemers to death. Mothers don't warn their sons off marrying teapot-shiksas whose parents believe in three teapots rather than one. People who put the milk in first don't kneecap those who put the tea in first.

That's a great way of putting it - describes my feeling on religion to a "tea"

Edited for my bad, sleepy, spelling - sorry!

The Sweeper

I don't hate the Catholic Church.

I find many catholic priests have an over-inflated sense of self. What happened to the humble, undeserving teaching of the bible? What happened to not being fit to tie a sandal? Oh yes that's right, when you have a bunch of your flock kow-towing to you daily you begin to believe you're omnipotent.

I had a religion teacher in school who used to tell us to tell her all of our opinions, "come on girls, let's have open conversation". I threw a question out for debate - "Seeing as there are a load of religions in the world, how do we know ours is the right one? Should the schools be also teaching us about Buddihsm, Hinduism and the Muslim faith?" That spiteful bitch told my mother at the next parent-teacher meeting that I had said I didn't want to be catholic and wished I'd never been baptised. My mother, who has a strong catholic faith and an overzealous belief in authority, didn't speak to me for a fortnight.

I don't hate catholicism. It's a bunch of teachings. It's like all religions. It's a bunch of teachings.

It's what ignorant, narrow-minded, dangerous people do with the power provided to them by those teachings that makes religion dangerous.

Catari Jaguar

Ickle, You can send your child to a non denominational or multi denominational school. Or have them exempted from RE. No one is trying to brain wash your child. Even in teacher college we do a Dip in RE, where we basically pick it all apart and discuss it. Then everything is really confusing and contradictory. Then no one wants to teach it to kids cos we feel like liars. I don't know of any student who likes teaching RE. I'm teaching about Buddhism in a multi D school at mo though.

Also I think your comment was completely insane. You can't say the message of Jesus is bad for kids because some idiot IRA fcuk wants to blow up London. That has NOTHING to do with it. Same with priests. They took advantage of the situation, its what happens when you let SOME paedos and power mad freaks around kids and turn a blind eye. Thats all politics and the human mind. (Another reason for my dislike and disagreement with organised Religion)They are not following anything in the slightest bit religious and if you blame the bible for their behaviour then you are seriously deluded. You don't believe in God because some people do bad stuff? People can be evil, that's why there's a message of doing good. Find a passage that says "Go abuse children" or "start a war" in the Bible. Maybe if they actually followed what they supposedly preach and believe then there wouldn't be such sh1t, yes?

StupidLikeAFox

Wow, i dunno but i think some of you need to chill out. I was educated in this country in a christian brothers school, there was the odd prayer service and that but to be honest who actually takes those seriously? It was time off class, happy days! I dont see anyone being brainwashed because of it. I mean religion was always there, but i cant think of anyone in my class who were particularly religious!

Ickle Magoo

Lil Kitten wrote:

Ickle, You can send your child to a non denominational or multi denominational school. Or have them exempted from RE. No one is trying to brain wash your child. Even in teacher college we do a Dip in RE, where we basically pick it all apart and discuss it. Then everything is really confusing and contradictory. Then no one wants to teach it to kids cos we feel like liars. I don't know of any student who likes teaching RE. I'm teaching about Buddhism in a multi D school at mo though.

Also I think your comment was completely insane. You can't say the message of Jesus is bad for kids because some idiot IRA fcuk wants to blow up London. That has NOTHING to do with it. Same with priests. They took advantage of the situation, its what happens when you let SOME paedos and power mad freaks around kids and turn a blind eye. Thats all politics and the human mind. (Another reason for my dislike and disagreement with organised Religion)They are not following anything in the slightest bit religious and if you blame the bible for their behaviour then you are seriously deluded. You don't believe in God because some people do bad stuff? People can be evil, that's why there's a message of doing good. Find a passage that says "Go abuse children" or "start a war" in the Bible. Maybe if they actually followed what they supposedly preach and believe then there wouldn't be such sh1t, yes?

I don't believe in God for a myriad of reasons I'm not going to go into here. I know about the schools, I have 2 kids entrolled in ET schools & I didn't mention brainwashing, I am talking about innapropriate religious teachings in a public education system. I'm not talking about the portakabins provoded for the children of parents who lobby the government for non-secular primary education or the option for my child to be segregated.:mad:

I do think religion is a terrible example to show kids how to live. If you read my post I said religion was the last place I'd look for a good example, not just the Christian bible :rolleyes:. Religion - as a whole. I also didn't mention the IRA, I was referring to some peoples bigotry & bad attitudes up north - despite considering themselves good Catholics or Protestants & having the backing of their churches, not the lunatic gunmen.

I agree there are many good aspects to certain religions (if you have a relationship wholly with a God & miss out the middlemen) but as a whole I don't believe its a good example to children or anyone else for that matter. I can't see some of the things that happen in the name of religion, or that are done by the heads of these organisations & see something I can support or ask my children to believe or understand. My point was morality & goodness & the best way of living life honestly, kindly, etc, etc can be taught without any religious references & I think the world would be a better place for it. I just can't separate religion from the people who run them & support the horrific things done in/behind its name - & that's quite apart from the enormous stumbling block of not believing there is a God & thinking the whole lot was made up with the sole pupose of wielding power & getting the masses to bend to the will of others anyway...:)

pbsuxok1znja4r

Religion is teh D3v1L!!

ColHol wrote:

Wow, i dunno but i think some of you need to chill out. I was educated in this country in a christian brothers school, there was the odd prayer service and that but to be honest who actually takes those seriously? It was time off class, happy days! I dont see anyone being brainwashed because of it. I mean religion was always there, but i cant think of anyone in my class who were particularly religious!

Same goes for me. I'm just you're average apathetic agnostic who realises it's all awfully unknowable, tbh. I have no problem in going to mass the odd time to satisfy my dad, either. Some people actually react like holy water (take that as a term for mass or anything religious at all) would burn their skin like acid if they had to touch it!! It's pretty comical.
I've had secular and atheist propaganda/opinions shoved down my throat about ten million times more often than catholic/organised-religous, TBH.

joe_chicken

scouser.tommy wrote:

I've had secular and atheist propaganda/opinions shoved down my throat about ten million times more often than catholic/organised-religous, TBH.

Well put...

If you can't put up with your kids learning some stories from the bible (that is probably one of the greatest stories ever told, no matter what religion you are) then i think you are being slightly thin skinned.

Not everything in religion is sub-conscious messaging that makes your kids want to run away to the seminary/nunnery (some of it is, but not all )

Saying that, I don't have any kids

Ickle Magoo

scouser.tommy wrote:

I've had secular and atheist propaganda/opinions shoved down my throat about ten million times more often than catholic/organised-religous, TBH.

Really? Here in Ireland? Can you give me an example? I'm curious, I can't remember ever even seeing secular or athiestic propaganda - and very few opinions of that nature, bearing in mind those that hold them are in the vast minority...

Nevyn

Lil Kitten wrote:

You can send your child to a non denominational or multi denominational school.

Have you any idea how few non denominational or multi denominational schools there are ? esp in comparison with the number of catholic shools ?

Lil Kitten wrote:

Or have them exempted from RE.

\

That is not as easy as it sounds, a lot of schools dont have the rescources.

Dr_Teeth

OP they're just trying to cure themselves of a mental virus, it's a difficult process.

panda100

Stephen wrote:

They can probably thank the Catholic church for the rampant AIDS epidemic that they're having too, what with the CONDOMS ARE EVIL teachings and all.

The catholic church are not the cause of the aids epidemic in Africa. Most africans arent catholic.The reason there is an aids epidemic is due to bad education nothing to do with the catholic churchs stance on contraception.

panda100

the Shades wrote:

To my mind before the foetus develops a brain and heart it's just a bunch of cells and swiping your finger along your cheek is pretty much equivalent in the number of cells you remove. But that's just my opinion I know many people feel very differently.

Im a medical students and spent last week in holles street giving ultrasounds to expectant mothers. When we show them the images we dont say 'here's your bunch of cells' we say 'heres your baby'.

Anyways I think a lot of people in this thread havent been into a catholic church or spoken to a catholic priest in some time. I have never once been told how bad homosexuality is orther stuff that is being said here. The catholic church in Ireland today really promotes discussion and debate on these topics. Priests today in Ireland really listen to what we have to say and I have many fantastic discussions with priests (who are all teachers) in Limerick and in Dublin.The catholic church in modern Ireland is now one that encourages peace and love yet it is their negative aspects that are constantly thrown into the media. Its the media that is now brainwashing people about religon

Ickle Magoo

For me it's not so much that the RC church caused the AIDS epidemic - of course they didn't...it's despite all scientific evidence pointing the fact condoms will help prevent the spread of AIDS worldwide that they still insist on condemning their use. Maybe it is just the media...I read one priest in Africa was telling his congregation that condoms spread AIDS & a Vatican cardinal was saying that the AIDS virus could easily get through condoms so they weren't worth using. Terrifying if true.

Cactus Col

Stephen wrote:

They can probably thank the Catholic church for the rampant AIDS epidemic that they're having too, what with the CONDOMS ARE EVIL teachings and all

OR ... they could blame themselves for ignoring the Catholic church, what with their teachings on fidelity and abstinence.

People blaming the catholic church over the spread of aids in africa has always been a non issue.

cornbb

panda100 wrote:

The catholic church in modern Ireland is now one that encourages peace and love

THEIR interpretation of peace and love - "love your girlfriend? Well, you're not allowed to express it physically til you get married - in a church!"

it is their negative aspects that are constantly thrown into the media. Its the media that is now brainwashing people about religon

The media are delivering the facts, and people are slowly coming to the realisation that they have been brainwashed. The catholic church have never used facts. My grandmother is steadfastly catholic and has been all her life, yet even she is bitter about having all aspects her early life controlled by the church. She even used the word "brainwashed". And she's one of the most religious people I know.

cornbb

Cactus Col wrote:

OR ... they could blame themselves for ignoring the Catholic church, what with their teachings on fidelity and abstinence.

Telling a human being to practice abstinence is like telling him/her to not eat, breathe or sleep.

Ickle Magoo

Cactus Col wrote:

OR ... they could blame themselves for ignoring the Catholic church, what with their teachings on fidelity and abstinence.

People blaming the catholic church over the spread of aids in africa has always been a non issue.

I think in a world where the majority of people do not practice abstinence (including a number of those preaching it!) to expect people not to have sex rather than encouraging the practice of safe sex is at best niave.

AIDS is a wider issue than just Africa & anyone/organisation against the practice of safe sex in a world where AIDS is a risk gets to share the blame for the spread of AIDS in my book, along with all those ignoring the warnings to use condoms, clean needles, etc, etc.

panda100

cornbb wrote:

The media are delivering the facts, .

The media are delivering certain very specific facts.Facts that will sell a story so they highlight all the negative aspects of the church over and over again.

I never see articles about the many homeless shelters throughout Ireland that catholic priests have set up,or what about the drugs rehabilitation centre in Knock that helps more people then they can cope with, or the 100's of local parish priests that are on call morning,noon and night up and down the country to help and support families when something tragic happens,or the nun in Limerick who is at the forefront of making Limerick a fair trade city.

Its much easier to focus on the churchs stance on contraception, abstinence and those who sexually abused.So much more controversial and news worthy. The media are brainwashing you the exact same way as the church did 50 years ago.

mloc

I just find the whole religion thing kinda funny at this stage. People believing in things that if published in a book nowadays would find itself in the fantasy section.

I guess its just an imperfect species imperfect way of explaining our imperfections.