AH and the Church.....why?

Dave!

OP do you not see it as a bit "not nice" that an organisation which considers gays to be an abomination, which says that adulterers should be stoned to death, which says that babies are sinful at birth because Adam ate an apple, and which is extremely misogynystic, should be given free reign to brainwash children into believing same?

I wonder would you mind if it were a Muslim Imam who was manipulating your brother or sister, or a Scientologist.

Tha Gopher

DaveMcG wrote:

OP do you not see it as a bit "not nice" that an organisation which considers gays to be an abomination, which says that adulterers should be stoned to death, which says that babies are sinful at birth because Adam ate an apple, and which is extremely misogynystic, should be given free reign to brainwash children into believing same?

I wonder would you mind if it were a Muslim Imam who was manipulating your brother or sister, or a Scientologist.

Few points there

1- Didnt the church give up the "unbaptised babies in limbo/hell" bull years ago? Granted, its one of the most disgusting things they ever propogated, but deceased unbaptised kids have been treated like normal people since at least the 50s. Case in point, my granny on my mams side was from a family of 8, she is the eldest, the next baby born (her sister) died soon after birth. Her parents, who by my grannys account were normal loving parents, never really talked much about her, it was for some reason encouraged by the church not to do so if they were unbaptised. Its sad to think people believed so heavily in these things they denied themselves the memory of their deceased child but that was the grip they had back then.
Compare that to even the 50s. My dad is from a family of 7 boys and 2 girls, both girls died soon after birth (one of them was a twin, her brother, my uncle, survived despite only being something like 2 pounds, and named his 1st daughter after his twin). The rule seemed to have disappeared by then, as my dads mother, although very proud of her boys, was always heartbroken that neither of her girls had grown to adulthood, and would tell people as much.

2- The only mention of homosexuality I remember in religion class was when a teacher in about 4th year tried to teach us tolerance to gays.

A class of twenty odd 16 year old males, all of whom (afaik) were straight? Good luck.

3- Stoning? Isnt the church against death in all circumstances these days?

The thing is, people are taking it too seriously. The simple fact is that the church never gets a chance to brainwash children. If it did, every child of 13 would be a religious nutbar, only falling out of it when "deh drugs and deh drink and dey start listenin to dem bleedin rappers and deh dance music" takes hold.

As for Scoentologists etc etc, cults prey on people in their late teens early 20s. Often people who are in a bad way. Homeless, addicted to drink/drugs, mental illness, bad family, basically people open to it. Fact is the church influences barely anyone under 50 these days.

Ickle Magoo

Yeah, geez, you'd hardly know there was a Catholic in Ireland these days. The Church has no influence any more at all - it just sits back quietly minding it's own business & not at all interfering with politics, education, contraception here or indeed AIDS ravaged countries in the third world, etc, etc, etc...and it must be all of, oh, 4yrs since the last case in the Ferns report...:(

Seth Brundle

Out of curiosity, when did the practice of cleansing women right after childbirth stop?

Dave!

Tha Gopher wrote:

1- Didnt the church give up the "unbaptised babies in limbo/hell" bull years ago?

Dunno to be honest, but that was just an example. There's no shortage of "bad" things that the church preaches.

Tha Gopher wrote:

2- The only mention of homosexuality I remember in religion class was when a teacher in about 4th year tried to teach us tolerance to gays.

But the Catholic Church believes homosexuality to be an abomination. The priests and teachers don't tell you the bad parts of the religion when you're a child, lest you be turned off by it. You can't just decide "oh well I don't like that part" and pick and choose what parts of the Bible or the church you want to follow.

Tha Gopher wrote:

3- Stoning? Isnt the church against death in all circumstances these days?

I would imagine so, but the Bible isn't. It's the same god I'm afraid, so alot of people are f*cked...! :eek:

Tha Gopher wrote:

The thing is, people are taking it too seriously. The simple fact is that the church never gets a chance to brainwash children. If it did, every child of 13 would be a religious nutbar, only falling out of it when "deh drugs and deh drink and dey start listenin to dem bleedin rappers and deh dance music" takes hold.

They DO get the chance to brainwash children! They're put into the teachers and priests' hands at a young age and told to believe what they tell them. Why should they be given the opportunity to teach this crap and indoctrinate people when they're so impressionable? You would object to a Scientologist teaching your child their bullsh*t, but you'd accept the catholic church teaching theirs? That's merely because that's the norm in Irish society, and because the church has been so prevalent until relatively recently. If you were living in an Arab country you'd be brainwashed about Allah and Mohammed rather than God and Jesus, and you'd think it's grand, it's no biggy.

Tha Gopher wrote:

As for Scoentologists etc etc, cults prey on people in their late teens early 20s. Often people who are in a bad way. Homeless, addicted to drink/drugs, mental illness, bad family, basically people open to it. Fact is the church influences barely anyone under 50 these days.

Yeah but as a point of principle they should not have been allowed to influence anyone through schools at all. Nor should Scientologists.

On a personal note, I don't hate the catholic church. I don't regularly get worked up about the sex abuse scandals or feel bitter about them attempting to "brainwash" me. But as a point of principle I don't think that any religion or cult should be allowed to have the amount of influence that the catholic church has had in Ireland in recent history. Likewise I don't think that Islam should dominate the entire Arab world. Unfortuntately it does.

the Shades

Ah religion in all forms is just a security blanket for those that can't handle the reality of their own mortality. Nothing much to worry about, let them pick their own delusion and let it give them comfort till their cold and rotting in the ground.

Tha Gopher

Ickle Magoo- the church may voice an OPINION on birth control in 2006, but what percentage of the young people in this country actually heard them? Ive got no problem with the church view on unmarried mothers, pre marital sex yadda yadda. It might be out of touch, but most priests in their 30s/40s even 50s have no problem christening a child of unmarried parents, so honestly who the fcuk cares. As far as I care the church can ask for me and my ilk to be burned alive on bonfires for our awful terrible sins. The fact it will never ever happen makes me not care.

Im sure, infact 100% certain, there are people in this country who would like the Irish Army to invade Northern Ireland and exterminate every Protestant born man woman and child in gas chambers, to solve "the problems". If you think thats an exaggeration you are clearly an idiot with no real life experience who has no place in this discussion (like quite a large amount of contributors to any boards debate)

However, because the majority dont agree with gassing the Protesnatnts, and its only the lunatic fringe, , then it makes the opinion pretty irrelevant. In the same way that a church proclaimaation on whatever issue is irrelevant because nobody cares. Im anti abortion. Not because the church says its evil, but because my mind thinks "Most EU countries allow women to murder their own children, yet the death penalty for adult offenders is absoloutely abhorrent in all circumstaces". In my view someone cant be pro abprtion but anti DP without being an idiot. I havent a clue what the specific catholic views on abortion are, all I know is I dont like the thought of killing children. Ive made a billion mistakes in my 20 years, and in coming years wth my track record and my unenviable bad luck ill make a crying, smiling, drooling mistake soon enough, but I would never ever contemplate murdering it. Ive seen threads on PI with people ponting young girls in the direction of abortion clincis via links to sites in the UK. Sorry but seriously, if there really is a hell your headed straight for it. What the biggest laugh is, if I posted that someone handed me 5 grand and said "can you get me a gun by tomorrow" and 48 hours later some scummer was shot dead with a gun I supplied, there would be outrage. Killing kids? Hey, girl power!

A baby vaccumed out and thrown in a bin? It takes one sick kunt to advise that is the best next step tbh.

the Shades

Hmm... the whole abortion issue hinges on when you consider life to start. To my mind before the foetus develops a brain and heart it's just a bunch of cells and swiping your finger along your cheek is pretty much equivalent in the number of cells you remove. But that's just my opinion I know many people feel very differently.

nesf

Don't drag the abortion issue into this please, there's already enough flammable material draped over the bonfire so to speak.

Bert Fever

On topic, I think we should have another jesus lol thread.

Oh I miss that thread.

DilbertPartII

kbannon wrote:

Out of curiosity, when did the practice of cleansing women right after childbirth stop?

when they realized domesticated animals give birth and they aren't cleansed at all and nothing happens.:D

Thirdfox

I have to fight against the indoctrination they try to give my sister (9 years old) in school... I often have to ask her - "Do you know why this is the case?" or "Why is this true?" - she would ponder for a while and tell me that it's because the teacher said it... that is what really angers me.

And then she gets into trouble for asking the teacher tough questions about religion - that's not what I want... I just want everyone to know the facts/get a balanced outlook before leaping into faith...

The African situation is horrendous - Catholic Church: "Condoms don't stop AIDS...there's tiny holes that allow the virus to pass through" - WHO "Condoms are the best way to prevent AIDS during sexual intercourse" (Who's right???)

Seth Brundle

Thirdfox wrote:

The African situation is horrendous - Catholic Church: "Condoms don't stop AIDS...there's tiny holes that allow the virus to pass through" - WHO "Condoms are the best way to prevent AIDS during sexual intercourse" (Who's right???)

Listening to a discussion on the radio it was said that only 5% of those at risk are Catholic so the argument that the Church's policy is leading to the high incidence of AIDS is untrue.

Black Swan

Free speech? Amend!

cornbb

kbannon wrote:

Listening to a discussion on the radio it was said that only 5% of those at risk are Catholic so the argument that the Church's policy is leading to the high incidence of AIDS is untrue.

According to Wikipedia there are 24.5 people living with AIDS in sub-sahara africa. 5% of 24.5 million people is still a lot of people. Thats not including the rest of the world, of course.

Tha Gopher wrote:

Im sure, infact 100% certain, there are people in this country who would like the Irish Army to invade Northern Ireland and exterminate every Protestant born man woman and child in gas chambers, to solve "the problems". If you think thats an exaggeration you are clearly an idiot with no real life experience who has no place in this discussion (like quite a large amount of contributors to any boards debate)

However, because the majority dont agree with gassing the Protesnatnts, and its only the lunatic fringe...

Wtf???

Hagar

cornbb wrote:

According to Wikipedia there are 24.5 people living with AIDS in sub-sahara africa.

Not as bad as I thought then. The .5 person must be a pygmy.

Tha Gopher

Thirdfox wrote:

I have to fight against the indoctrination they try to give my sister (9 years old) in school... I often have to ask her - "Do you know why this is the case?" or "Why is this true?" - she would ponder for a while and tell me that it's because the teacher said it... that is what really angers me.

And then she gets into trouble for asking the teacher tough questions about religion - that's not what I want... I just want everyone to know the facts/get a balanced outlook before leaping into faith...

The African situation is horrendous - Catholic Church: "Condoms don't stop AIDS...there's tiny holes that allow the virus to pass through" - WHO "Condoms are the best way to prevent AIDS during sexual intercourse" (Who's right???)

Indoctrination? Lol Sorry, but honestly, what indoctrination does a child get these days? As said previously, when i was in national school the day was that, 6 hours? (9 til 3 odd). 4 days a week we would do only 3 subjects, Irish, Maths and English. On a Friday we may get time to squeeze in an additional subject (Religion, History or Geography) Truth is, we only did religion once per fortnight at the very most, and even at that it was very little to do with church rules on any of the contentious topics. In fact, if I didnt watch the news I wouldnt have a clue what the church view on pretty much any issue bar abortion was, as abortion is the only topic I recall we were told from the anti viewpoint.

Thirdfox

The indoctrination that God is real, good and great (without being able to question the validity of that assertion) - I'm pretty pro-religion for the masses (gives them something to hold onto ala role of religion during Communist Soviet Union - read Animal Farm). But not allowing a child to think about the other side of the coin is something which angers me (hey it angers the teacher when my sister asks the teacher these questions about God...)

Abortion is not the only issue (in fact I'm personally against it :shock: ) Stem cell research is another area the Catholic church is against.

National school seems to have changed since your days perhaps? They regularly study other subjects (science and a foreign language).

It's not the actual religion class that is the problem (indeed from my experience, just a few years out of secondary school myself, the religion classes are quite non-religious - discussing morality of death penalty etc. etc.) but the atmosphere of most schools that I know of is very Catholic orientated. I remember my history/religion teacher stating (albeit jokingly) that he'll "convert me yet!"

carryboy

kbannon wrote:

My gripe is not against Catholicism nor against direct members of the Catholic Church (well not many!) but against the hypocrisy of the organisation.
it condemns masturbation, homosexuality, etc. yet protects child abusers. (the word 'protects' and not 'protected' is intentional!)

The church got a lot of loopholes i must agree on that.:(

JCB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha Gopher
3- Stoning? Isnt the church against death in all circumstances these days?

DaveMcG:
I would imagine so, but the Bible isn't. It's the same god I'm afraid, so alot of people are f*cked...!



What are you talking about, tell me where the Jesus in the Bible promotes stoning people for anything?
Have you even read the Gospels you're complaining about?
Jesus loves everyone regardless of what sexuality you have or what you do.
Can you blame the church for trying to promote that hopeful message by teaching children in schools?
Your problem shouldn't be with God, Jesus or the holy scriptures, so don't take your frustration with the people who were promoting His message on God Himself - you have no right to do that.

Hagar

JCB wrote:

QWhat are you talking about, tell me where the Jesus in the Bible promotes stoning people for anything?

"Let he who is without sin among you cast the first stone" - Immediately after a good confession I would be without sin, so I could whack someone with a rock as per the quotation above.

Twisting the meaning of the word of God I know, but isn't that was religion is all about.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

you're forgetting about original sin hagar.

Hagar

Hypothetically we are born with and cleansed of it by baptism. Yes?
Get me a big rock.:D

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

nope,. baptism doesn#t cleanse it.. nothing does.. it's our dirty little human stain because we're filthy, filthy evil creatures who deserve nothing but the fires of hell.

baptism afaik just brings you into the fold of god, but it's useless now seeing as how the church got rid of purgatory. now all babies go to heaven.

moneyman

User45701 wrote:

I do hate the catholic church but then again i hate the muslim faith just as much along with all religous views.

i just cant understand why people would be so frightened at the thought of dying they need to create a fairy tail vision of what comes after.

Religion has caused too much pain and death in mans history and i don't think it serves any useful purpose anymore.

In the past it was needed to explain things that man was too primitive to understand but with modern understanding i see no need for lies about how we where created or what will happen when we die

Why do you hate religion? If you think it's religion that's caused all this "pain and death" then you need to think some more. How about the stupidity of certain leaders that are greedy and violent?
Please don't speak as if it's fact that nothing will happen when we die, because that's just your opinion. I certainly believe in God and I defenitly don't "need to create a fairy tail vision of what comes after". If God didn't exist, then how was the universe created? There has to have been a higher power, life is far too complicated to have just happened. The universe was created by a higher power, whether you want to believe it is up to you, but it is a fact. Just because scientists can't prove it doesn't mean it's not fact.
You're opinion is just disrespectful and I 'hate' it just as you hate what I strongly believe in.
To be honest, if you're stupid enough to believe that there's no such thing as God, and to blame Religion for lifes problems, then that really shows some of earths more stupid people.

Hagar

Read the third paragraph.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp
Baptism does cleanse original sin according to the CC.
Now as I was saying where did I leave that pointy granite rock...

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

moneyman wrote:

Why do you hate religion? If you think it's religion that's caused all this "pain and death" then you need to think some more. How about the stupidity of certain leaders that are greedy and violent?
Please don't speak as if it's fact that nothing will happen when we die, because that's just your opinion. I certainly believe in God and I defenitly don't "need to create a fairy tail vision of what comes after". If God didn't exist, then how was the universe created? There has to have been a higher power, life is far too complicated to have just happened. The universe was created by a higher power, whether you want to believe it is up to you, but it is a fact. Just because scientists can't prove it doesn't mean it's not fact.
You're opinion is just disrespectful and I 'hate' it just as you hate what I strongly believe in.
To be honest, if you're stupid enough to believe that there's no such thing as God, and to blame Religion for lifes problems, then that really shows some of earths more stupid people.

rofl

cornbb

Religion can't be blamed for the world's problems, at least not directly. Religion, in my opinion, is a wrapper inside which we place all the unknown questions of life. As human knowledge grows, there are fewer and fewer questions. Questions such as "what is the meaning of life" will always exist, therefore there will always be a place for religion, albeit a much smaller place than there is for science. Then again, you can take the view that science itself is a sort of religion, and science and religion are both branches of philosophy.

Organised religion, on the other hand, is a large, powerful bureaucracy which takes the approach of trying to force its answers on people who should be making up their own mind on various matters. One of the positive things about all the major organised religions is their promotion of a moral code such as "love thy neighbour", etc. But these are basic morals which should be self-evident to any decent, well-balanced human being. Whether the benefits of organised religion outweigh its wrongdoings is a tough question, I'd say there's a good argument either way.

But from my point of view, the preachings of all the major religions are way too imposing, narrow, restrictive, dogmatic and sometimes just plain wrong. I respect everyone else's faith, but faith is not for me.

oRlyYaRly

I don't know whether this will contribute anything to this thread but I remember in 6th class the teacher was disgusted when a student said he never went to mass.

I was in 6th class in 2002! :eek:

CuLT

Mordeth wrote:

rofl

Agreed.

"You're stupid. The fact that I can't explain how the Universe exists obviously means that God exists. It's simple logic, you idiot."