Young girl is Raped - what should happen to the rapist?

slipss

I have to agree with Iguana and to a lesser extent Monkeyfudge here, I do feel that if society(or whatever you want to call them) didn't make such a massive deal out of saying things like "rape completely destroys your life" and the like then victims would be able to cope with it better. As it is when a woman is raped shes pre-programed to find it hard to cope and get on with her life, which excluding infection with an STD or pregnancy, which I understand only a very small percentage of rapes result in, hasn't really been altered all that much.

You can talk about the ongoing psychological effects of rape all day long but victims of other crimes, serious assaults, muggings, attempted murder, have to face the same psychological issues aswell, lack of trust, ect, the difference is there is more of a owness and an encouragement by society to put it behind them and get on with there lives as normal as possible.

As far as the punishment of the offender goes, we live in a criminal legal system that is based on not taking the law into your own hands, and one that is based on proportioanl punishment. Giving rapists life imprisonment and physical castration like some suggested but only giving murderers 20 years, and GBH offenders 10 years isn't really fair in my opinion. Also, even though i'm sure alot of people will disagree with me, i do think there are degrees of severity of rape and they should be punished accoridingly. Someone that picks a girl up in a club and she agrees to go back to his flat with him but once they begin to have intercourse tells him to stop and he doesn't, I don't think should be punished the same as someone that grabs a five year old girl off the street and rapes her.

Having said all that I'm being very hypocritical, if it was my daughter/sister/mother/friend that was raped I would murder or have murdered the perpetrator with out thinking twice about it, but that doesn't mean I would be right to do so, and my view in this regard is probably a little warped as I would have no second thoughts about carrying out the same revenge on someone for any physical assault they carried out on someone I loved, be it rape or just a seroius assault. Also it's my firm belief that anyone that inflicts a serious physical assault on a child or animal should be beaten to within an inch of thier life and then face a massive jail term as these are the sickest of all crimes in my opinion and are only carried out by people I would pour petrol over if they were on fire.

takola

slipss wrote:

I have to agree with Iguana and to a lesser extent Monkeyfudge here, I do feel that if society(or whatever you want to call them) didn't make such a massive deal out of saying things like "rape completely destroys your life" and the like then victims would be able to cope with it better. As it is when a woman is raped shes pre-programed to find it hard to cope and get on with her life, which excluding infection with an STD or pregnancy, which I understand only a very small percentage of rapes result in, hasn't really been altered all that much.

You can talk about the ongoing psychological effects of rape all day long but victims of other crimes, serious assaults, muggings, attempted murder, have to face the same psychological issues aswell, lack of trust, ect, the difference is there is more of a owness and an encouragement by society to put it behind them and get on with there lives as normal as possible.

Got it in one! I have always been suprised at the amount of victim's I have heard say "If there was one thing I could change it would be that I told!" I think anyone can deal with rape. You can get back to yourself and you can learn to trust again! It's society's reaction to rape that turns you into an "emotional wreck!" With any other form of abuse you are automaticly given encouragement to put it behind you. With rape you are encouraged to be a victim! "Take your time, talk about it, We all know how hard it is to put something like that behind you!" Well you know what? It's harder to deal with everyone seeing and treating you differently than it is for you to deal with being raped!

The justice system in Ireland is a joke! I think a trial for rape is harder on the victim than the rapist. But I don't think it's going to help to have your brother/sister/friend etc in jail for murder or GBH either.

theTinker

The proposed situation is one of the only ones i would ever take the law into my own hands, If they guy gets anything less than most of his life then i would feel cheated to a horrible extent.

I would definitely punish the guy after he gets out. Might not kill him but im sure he would be missing body parts or incapable of using most of them again.

hmmm...I wonder would i tell the girl that was victimised though.....like would it be on her agreement or not...

shane86

Mrs_Doyle wrote:

EDIT - I think my original thread could be upsetting to family and friends of the victim.


Hypothetcial situation may be best.

Imagine, a young girl is dragged up a lane way, beaten and raped.
The Gardai manage to actually get the guy - he will maybe face 5 years, at a guess.

Now, the girl is your sister/daughter/girlfriend/friend/cousin etc, you know where the rapist is staying - or - you wait the 5 years till the guy is released - would you take the law into your own hands?
Or leave it to the courts?

VERY interesting question.

A few months ago, I got robbed. I was drunk after town, got off the nitelink in the village, walking thru an underpass in Blanch (Corduff one, for those who know) that nobody would walk in their right senses at 2:30am on a Saturday morning. Me, Id been out all night, Im like "****, i can stay on the poxy nitelink and wait 40 mins to get to mine, or i can jump out here and be home in 10"

I got jumped. The same underpass that Id walked through a billion times before, the same place that Id seen skangers giving me a look but I gave them one back and they went back to their business, I felt like the rules didnt apply, that Id been thru here a billion times before and nothing happened, so why change my routine to give in to the scum.

Anyway Im walking home, I feel a kick to the back of my leg, and before you know it ive 2 lads kicking in my head dmeanding money. I had none (i honestly didnt, i had plain forgotten my ATM pin that night, as you just sometimes do, the card was cancelled because of 3 incorrect pin enters, and i had no cash, I had went out that nighyt with the tenner in my pocket and the 60 my mate gave me, in total it got admission to the club, 10 pints and the 4 euro Nitelink home). I told them I had none. Kicked my head in, chipped my two front teeth, i kept protesting id got no money.

So then, he asks for my phone. By this stage, sure, Ive been beaten, but Im drunk, and drunk rules of **** yis all still kick in. So, when they gave up on the money line of inqiry they progressed to "give us your ****in phone"

To which I replied (given Id already had a hiding, I replied " go **** your Mother" (Joe Pesci, your a legend )

That earned me another 7 to the head before i finally gave up the phone. As the two walked off, from about 50 feet one saw me looking at them and, presumably afraid id get up and give chase, ran back and gave a Jonny Wilkinson worthy final kick to the head.

My mother picked me up from the local hospital that morning around 7am, and tbh for 2 whole hours all i did was angrily roar about how id ****ing sort them out, that this time next week they would be dead (I even warned the doctors when I was there and being patched up that theyd be struggling to save gunshot wounds on two lads by the following Friday, they told me to calm down or theyd throw me out)

Anyway within a few days Id found out from the lads likely names for the guys based on my hazy descriptions of them. It turned out theyd been robbing all weekend. One of them attacked a friend of a friend in a club, and the attacker got beaten to within an inch of his life. Another got locked up on skipped bail soon after trying to rob a man who, unfortuately for him this time, was sober enough to fight back, hold him down and call the cops. So, despite the fact Id either considered personally handling them (didnt fancy the cops. The cops knew about it, but the way I saw it i didnt want to take non violent rwevenge via the judicial system and then face being thrown off the Blanch bypass flyovers once he got out after 3 months). Way i saw it, either theyll rob someone connected to a Blanch head who truly will kill them, or the heroin will cath up with them in the end. **** them



Now, as the story shows, common sense intervened in my thinking of murdering them, the temporary state of mind where i couldnt give a **** if they locked me up for life (in fairness, after the beating i was too weak to kill a moth, never mind two heads). I decided that the way of life they were leading meant theyd either be dead by 23 or living a pathetic ****ing life on the streets,

But as for a female relative, I think even when you calmed down and got to your senses, you would still decide a life for parole in 7 years sentence was worth it.

Zombrex

il gatto wrote:

Surely castration would make it likely they'd not reoffend sexually again?

No, not in the slightest. There are more than a few ways to sexually assault a woman. Having a penis is not necessary.

il gatto wrote:

If nothing else, it's nearly a horrible enough thing to do to these scum as punishment. Nearly.

What would punishment achieve if it doesn't stop reoffending and only makes the person even more f**ked up?

People get way to hung up on the idea of punishment. For someone like a serial rapest punishment is largely irrelevent, beyond given the family some notion of revenge at the criminals suffering. Punishment is only relivent in the crimal justice system if it prevents reoffence. But in the case of someone like a violent rapest these people aren't working on the same wave length as everyone else, punishment isn't going to make them see the error of their ways.

rogue-entity

A three stage system, depending on the severity of the crime and number of victims. But I would say, 10 years in prison with mandatory castration.

I have to laugh at a country where you can rape a girl and only face 5 years or get thrown in jail for 10 years or more, face heavy financial fines etc if you tell people how they can bypass copyright protection such as WMP and iTunes DRM or DeCSS.

I am voting against our currant governmen come the next election and I will be writing to my TD about my strong dislike for the overly lenient laws against sex offenses.

il gatto

Wicknight wrote:

No, not in the slightest. There are more than a few ways to sexually assault a woman. Having a penis is not necessary.



What would punishment achieve if it doesn't stop reoffending and only makes the person even more f**ked up?

People get way to hung up on the idea of punishment. For someone like a serial rapest punishment is largely irrelevent, beyond given the family some notion of revenge at the criminals suffering. Punishment is only relivent in the crimal justice system if it prevents reoffence. But in the case of someone like a violent rapest these people aren't working on the same wave length as everyone else, punishment isn't going to make them see the error of their ways.

It's not a hangup. The justice system in this country has failed so many people. Like other systems, when it doesn't work, people revert to the old system for the duration. I'm just saying what I know I'd do, not what I think should be legal. I believe castration is, if nothing else, a massive incentive for these people to consider what they do. It's also a huge punishment. And if these people are twisted enough tostill consider assaulting someone anyway, they should be put somewhere they can never do it again. I'm not suggesting we castrate them like a dog and release them back on the streets. F#ck them. They've had their chance to live amongst us and respect others and obey the law. They blew it in a massive, unforgivable way. Nobody should ever be put at risk again by ever rehabilitating and releasing them. The safety of good people should not be put at risk in some sort of a social expiriment on the say so of prison officials or doctors, because they "think" they've changed.

darkflower

il gatto wrote:

It's not a hangup. The justice system in this country has failed so many people. Like other systems, when it doesn't work, people revert to the old system for the duration. I'm just saying what I know I'd do, not what I think should be legal. I believe castration is, if nothing else, a massive incentive for these people to consider what they do. It's also a huge punishment. And if these people are twisted enough tostill consider assaulting someone anyway, they should be put somewhere they can never do it again. I'm not suggesting we castrate them like a dog and release them back on the streets. F#ck them. They've had their chance to live amongst us and respect others and obey the law. They blew it in a massive, unforgivable way. Nobody should ever be put at risk again by ever rehabilitating and releasing them. The safety of good people should not be put at risk in some sort of a social expiriment on the say so of prison officials or doctors, because they "think" they've changed.

i agree! these kind of people doesn't even have the right to live coz they're a living threat to us, especially women and children who couldn't protect themselves.

GuanYin

Thaedydal wrote:

http://wwa.rte.ie/news/2003/1003/rape.html


The system needs to change and so does society.

Now *that* is interesting.

Personally, I believe those stats and I would attribute them in no small way to the hold the church had on this country up until 2 generations ago, where the victims were often blamed for "tempting" the perpitaitors and "ruining" the families of all concerned. As such, I think Ireland has a far more blaise attitude towards sexual crime than it should. But then just look how the clergy have gotten away with it.

On topic, there are many things to consider in looking at why the system now is wrong and what would make it right. Two wrongs don't make a right and a death penalty for anything isn't an accceptable punishment in my eyes. Nor is physical disfigurement.

I think what monkeyfudge was getting at (and he never struck me as a troll) is that with almost every crime, there is a need for revenge by the victims. Even when someone gets life in prison, or the chair, you often read of victims and victims families saying that it's not good enough. If someone threathens you or steals from you, you want retribution. If someone assaults you, you want retribution.

In our society, sex if a very important thing. Our society places an almost sacred value to it and even judges individuals on their sexual morality. When you couple that with the need for retribution, rape becomes an issue that may be even more emotive than murder. The problem is, there is always a very fine line between rape/sexual assault and consent. And then, like everything, there is always the 1/1000 instance of someone crying wolf. This is the problem with taking drastic measures with rapists.

Oddly enough, some of the possibly more reasonable yet severe punishments originated from some of the more disagreeable rulers on the planet. There were instances in BC China of genital shackles being put on chinese soldiers convicted of rape which made erections so painful that libido was lost. The idea wasn't far off psychology principals used today - make the sensation associated with pain and the subject will avoid the sensation. Nazi's dabbled with such things too (usually high ranking people who had sex with jewish women), as did the KGB (among whom, ironically, rape was a milder form of torture) - allegedly, the KGB used implants of some sort.

Personally, I think these kinds of things would be a fair punishment. Mainly because they are reversable. A jail sentence goes without saying but I'm a believer in systems that take away from the criminal, that which they abused. The thing is, no matter what you do after the fact, nothing will ever "make it better" and people often lose sight of the very important difference between justice and retribution.

Kell

monkeyfudge wrote:

People give rapists far too much power over them. It really isn't much different to any other form of physical assault... but our society has such hangups about sex that rape has gotten all this emotional baggage that comes along with it that makes it hard for the victim to cope.

No- its not like any other form of assault. Rape robs the victim of control at a very very deep level which has a fundamental impact on most aspects of the psychy.

Some will never get the therapy thats needed in response to this sort of crime and wonder years later why they have gone quite off the rails while never actually associating their behaviour with the rape.

Behavioural change after a rape is multi-faceted and doesnt follow any set of rules that you can easily associate with other crimes.

It also impacts the victims trust in society as a whole. MF, consider for a moment the extent of how far an absence of trust in people might go and the impact it would have in any relationship be it friendship or more. Now put yourself in the victims shoes and imagine that your view of people is (without therapy) irrevocably skewed.

Not really the same as any other assault now is it?

slipss wrote:

As it is when a woman is raped shes pre-programed to find it hard to cope and get on with her life

And what do you base your notions on? Assisted many rape victims have we?

Having been there for a few friends who found themselves in this horrific situation I can confirm you are talking out your rear end. No amount of "its ok" and "things will get better for you" does any real help.

Pick up a "good" psychology book that will explain how a trauma like rape shakes the vic to their foundation and radically alters their perception of self. In order for the vic to really get over it, they need to rebuild their image of self, that image free of being skewed by the crime. Kind words and cups of tea doesnt do this.

You have NO fúcking idea how it affects people unless you experience it or have been there for someone who has. None.

K-

Nevyn

Revenge is easy, helping to rebuild a person and a life is hard.

guildofevil

I know that if someone dear to me was raped, I would want to maim or kill the scum, regardless of the consequences.

However, that is an emotional response and in any society which considers itself civilized, such an act could not be condoned.

Another thing to consider is the consequences of taking the law into my own hands. In all likelihood I would be caught and convicted of the crime. Even with a sympathetic judge and jury I would do time. This would be a disaster, not just for me, but for my family, including the person who was raped.

I would be in prison for a time and not available to help my loved one through the trauma of being raped.

I would experience prison life, which is bound to change my outlook on life and thus my personality.

I would loose my job and thus my family would loose their main source of income. This might cause my family to loose the house as the mortgage payments would be too steep for my partner alone.

All of this would simply make matters worse for the victim of the rape. Adding these difficulties to the trauma could only slow any recovery.

The gut response, particularly from the male of the species, is to seek violent revenge, for hurting a loved one so egregiously. I hope I would be strong enough to fight the urge and actually do something to HELP my loved one, by being there, supporting and caring for her, when she needs me most.

de5p0i1er

Give them 20 years and make sure the other prisoners know what he did.

Victor

Mrs_Doyle wrote:

a young girl is dragged up a lane way, beaten and raped.

Now, the girl is your ..... girlfriend

Isn't there a contrast between "a young girl", i.e. a child, and "girlfriend". On the one hand you use her age to evoke sympathy (not that rape is easy on older people), but you don't carry this through.

Mrs_Doyle

Victor wrote:

Isn't there a contrast between "a young girl", i.e. a child, and "girlfriend". On the one hand you use her age to evoke sympathy (not that rape is easy on older people), but you don't carry this through.

The girl had just turned 17, that to my mind is young enough to be considered a young girl, and old enough to be a lot of Boardsie's girlfriend.