Mutiny as passengers refuse to fly until Asians are removed

IzzyWizzy

Bottle of Smoke, my friend is a female Malaysian Muslim who wears a headscarf (but otherwise Western dress including make-up) and we
sometimes get comments like "go back to where you came from" and anti-Muslim remarks. Loads of people ask if she's from Afghanistan or Iraq, when she has very clearly south east Asian features. It's always thick and ignorant people who make the remarks, and I suspect the people who complained about the Muslim passengers were the same. Most people treat her normally and with respect.

dr.bollocko

PPl are stupid sheep. The only way to reverse this is not to educate ppl on why its wrong to discriminate and assume all slightly tanned ppl are terrorists.
Its if we had a bunch of white american protestant terrorists, or english, whatever. Throw the racist morons a terrorist curveball by getting white ppl to do the bombing. Then they wouldnt know who to discriminate against.

Muggy Dev

The two gentlemen in question were interviewed on BBC 2's Newsnight last night.Heres the link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5278210.stm

Hobbes

yea watched it last night. Didn't come across as anything but students and took it quite well.

I can't believe this all started because some 12 year old girl started crying saying they where terrorists. I mean ffs they get checked out 3 times by security and they have a 12 year old girl doing the final spot check. :rolleyes:

leeroybrown

I'm reminded of a friend who works in London. He has a number of asian co-workers who for a few weeks after the London bombings were forcibly thrown off the bus they get to work by other passangers.

If this continues to happen on planes then the terrorists won't need bombs - just a load of asian students who will look a tiny bit suspicious just after a plane takes off.

bonkey

Events like this are sadly an inevitable byproduct of the way society has approached these problems.

The "liquid explosive" plot which sparked this all off was:

a) Tracked for a long time
b) Shut down before anything happened
c) never likely to succeed from a technical viewpoint

Despite these three facts, it gave rise to a knee-jerk "something must be seen to be done" response of a quality similar to what we witnessed post-911.

If you think about it, there is (almost?) nothing praiseworthy about the actions of the various authorities. The airports have obviously worked out their "enhanced security" measures in advance, but never implemented them until after a threat was made known to the public...which makes no sense. If there was a real threat, and these measures were an appropriate reasction, then they should be permanently in place and should have been in place long before this event occurred.

I could rant on about how dumb it all is, but I don't think there's a need.

Moving on, we have the media's role.

Rather than pointing out any of the above, the media have pandered to officialdom by playing up how scary the threat was and remains, playing down how stupid the security-reaction and its timing has been, and generally whipping up a frenzy about all the wrong things.

As a result, some amount of Joe Q Public will inevitably buy into their version of things, and events like this will occur.

Consider the following:

If airports were properly secure, then it is the people causing the rucus who should have been removed. The reason they were listened to at all is an implicit admission that airports are simply not secure.

Consider also that even with our non-secure airports, you could still fly daily and expect to live your entire life without a terrorist event occurring on your plane.....just like you go outside daily and expect to live your life without getting hit by lightning (which is still more likely).

And now for the kicker...

The media tell us that the Evil Tourists are targetting all of us, and want to shut down international air-traffic and all sorts of other hyperbole.

If you were one such Evil Tourist...where would you target next? Would you dream up a way of smuggling stuff onto a plane in your clothes, a way of smuggling it on in your luggage, or would you simply target the now-vastly-more-populated security-check areas where you can carry whatever you want right to the middle of the queue and then blow yourself up there.

It is no coincidence that the initial allegations were US-bound planes, and (if memory serves) were all US carriers. It is no coincidence that the other major European airlines' and airports reaction was to shrug and do only what was necessary.

I had a flight cancelled on the day all of this crap started. The following day, swiss airports had the policy that if you were flying to the US, Israel or the UK, you had additional security measures. If you ewre flying somewhere else, it was business as usual. I flew through Paris (having changed routes), where the French had exactly the same policy in place. A mate of mine flew to England a few days later, and cause he wasn't going to a major airport, his security was also more relaxed than it would have been going to Heathrow, Gatwick or Stanstead. But someone still want us to believe that every flight from everywhere to everywhere else is equally at risk....and that we're better off praising the morons who got these two lads kicked off their flight than we are in actually refusing to allow terrorism to terrorise us any more than is really necessary.

And of course...you can be damned sure that if the two lads kicked off wanted to make a fuss rather than be chill about the whole thing, they would be demonised for trying to pressure us into being "less secure" or some such guff.

One thing is for sure...the UK is now off my route. I'll pay a couple of hundred bucks more to fly through France, Germany, or go direct to do the Ireland/Switzerland run rather than go through that madhouse.

jc

dr.bollocko

The only point I would question is the mention that terrorists would find it easier to bomb a crowded security checkpoint. While this is true, I think its counter-productive for them to do so.
I think that terrorists are trying to acheive more than simply killing a few dozen or a few hundred or even thousand people. They are dealing in symbols, martyrs and history. The victims are an unfortunate byproduct of this.

The reason why they use planes is that the plane is essentially a dart.
If you get a dart in the foot it hurts, but its quickly forgotten about, but a dart right in the eye, ala that two planes crashing into the two buildings in New york, (what date did that happen again, nudge nudge wink wink) then its something that you will never forget.Its the symbol of power and the threat of terror from anywhere thats possibly more important to them.

bonkey

dr.bollocko wrote:

The only point I would question is the mention that terrorists would find it easier to bomb a crowded security checkpoint. While this is true, I think its counter-productive for them to do so.

By the same token, blowing up a chunk of planes using liquid explosives whilst they were crossing the atlantic is counter-productive.....but thats apparently what they were trying to do this time round.

The reason why they use planes is that the plane is essentially a dart.

Thats the reason they used planes on 911. Its not why public transport was targetted in either the Madrid nor London bombings. Its not why the latest group were allegedly targetting trans-atlantic UK/US flights with liquid explosive.

I'd go so far as to say that you can be pretty certain that any further targetting of planes will not be for similar purposes, and that if similar targets are attacked in the future, planes will not be the attack-vector.

As a result of 911, aircraft attacks have become far more symbolic than they previously were. Compare the reactions to this unsuccessful attack to those which followed even the most horrific successful attacks on aircraft prior to 911. They are now a symbol that terrorism can so easily leverage, rather than a tool with which to attack symbols.

Flight is still statistically one of the safest ways to travel, but just look at the impact a poorly-implemented, unsucessful attempt at an attack has had this time round. Once again, we have mass hysteria and another unhealthy dose of anti-Islam, anti-Arab, anti-Eastern, and anti-all-sorts-of-other-things sentiments. We have intrusive non-security reminding everyone who flies to be afraid, and a media to pass that message on to everyone else. In short, the attack achieved all of its ideological goals without even being carried out.

Why? Because people now seem the attack on a plane plane in terms of 911...even when they shouldn't. Attacks on planes are even more successful in terms of the terror that they engender because we can't dissociate them from 911.

These two Asian guys were victimised and the idiots who did it were feted as heroes by the national media. Ministers talk about the potential threat to the future of the entire commercial airline insustry. The list goes on.

911 was a gift to terrorists that just keeps on giving, and this is just the latest installment. Every time things seem to settle down, they just need to nudge the anthill again, and another frenzy ensues.

The loudest message in the days immediately post-911 was that we will not let these terrorists change our way of life. Pity so much of society (media included) never tried to live up to that, but rather have embraced fear and fear-driven change instead.

bonkey

Just following up somewhat....Schneier puts it all together quite well (as usual):

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/08/what_the_terror.html

Some excellent links off that article as well.

metrovelvet

bonkey wrote:

Once again, we have mass hysteria and another unhealthy dose of anti-Islam, anti-Arab, anti-Eastern, and anti-all-sorts-of-other-things sentiments. We have intrusive non-security reminding everyone who flies to be afraid, and a media to pass that message on to everyone else. In short, the attack achieved all of its ideological goals without even being carried out.

.

Yep. I just had $80 worth of makeup taken off me at the airport. Mascara I guess is a potential way to blow a plane. :rolleyes:

Im sooooooooooooooo sick of it. Im sorry to be OT for a second, but how can we live like this for any longer?

War or no war. We have lost. If we have to live like this, we are losers.

dr.bollocko

Live like what? Someone is a loser because they have 80 euro worth of make-up taken off them in an airport?
Pfffftttttt......
Not quite as bad as , for example, the holocaust...

metrovelvet

No. You dont understand. I was referring to what Bonkey said. The fact that that is the reality now makes us the losers. I was citing my own experience. Excuse me for living and for having an opinion.

dr.bollocko

Well while the mass-hysteria pervades the airwaves, any user based method of non-directed communication I have heard seems to be very strongly opposed to anti-islam sentiment, so, in fact, I applaud your opinion.
Got ur first post completely wrong too.

Bottle_of_Smoke

IzzyWizzy wrote:

Bottle of Smoke, my friend is a female Malaysian Muslim who wears a headscarf (but otherwise Western dress including make-up) and we
sometimes get comments like "go back to where you came from" and anti-Muslim remarks. Loads of people ask if she's from Afghanistan or Iraq, when she has very clearly south east Asian features. It's always thick and ignorant people who make the remarks, and I suspect the people who complained about the Muslim passengers were the same. Most people treat her normally and with respect.

It's good you\she realise that. I mean I kind of know the feeling because I look like I'm half chinese - and have gotten remarks like she has. When I was younger it upset me. It was only when I realised people who made those comments had issues of their own it stopped bothering me.

Wonder how it's going on the playgrounds. Kids say anything that comes into their heads & don't realise the effects their words can have/

Dave!

Sarky wrote:

Wow. I'm amazed the airline actually did that. Pathetic show on their part, and particularly that of the "holidaymakers". Much as I dislike the culture of lawsuits, I'll be quite happy to see this one go to court.

Yeah me too, appalling that the airline folded like that. Not surprising though, cos they're not gonna take a moral stance against this; they could let all the people who were uncomfortable, walk off the plane, and lose all of their money, or else they could remove the 2 Asian lads from the plane, refund them, and lose THEIR money. Easy choice for a commercial airline, but deplorable none the less.

InFront wrote:

Very witty:D

Indeed!

Hobbes wrote:

yea watched it last night. Didn't come across as anything but students and took it quite well.

Agreed, they didn't appear political or anything like that, just 2 ordinary students.

I hope they sue the pants off the airline, surely they'd have a great case for discrimination.

spurious

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Wonder how it's going on the playgrounds. Kids say anything that comes into their heads & don't realise the effects their words can have/

Kids say what they hear at home. No child is born racist.

dr.bollocko

I think the playground has a large effect, much more so than the home. If your peers are racist in school, or just ignorant and scared of slight differences, this can have a big influence on a small child.

spurious

I think if children have been brought up in a particular way by their parents, hearing ignorant racist rantings of others will not make them want to repeat them. Otherwise we would all use racist language, as we've all heard it at some stage.

Personally, I remember the first time I heard an adult use a racist name. I felt pity for them as to me it made them seem uneducated and ignorant, though I am sure that their intention was quite the opposite.

dr.bollocko

Its true, once you have x amount of experience and a tiny bit of cop on, even at a young age, racism shines through quite quickly. I remember cringing at some of my grandparents comments over dinner. It really makes me see red, throw-away racism.

grumpytrousers

Trode wrote:

Dude, it's the Daily Mail. You're lucky the headline wasn't "Islamofacist terrorist scum foiled by courageous English heroes. Where are our government now?!"

Tsk, it would have read

"Islamofacist terrorist scum foiled by courageous English heroes leads to property values fear in middle class areas"

dr.bollocko

Marks and Spencers share price falls in light of sharp decline in towel sales.

Terry

the daily mail wrote:

Initially, six passengers refused to board the flight. On board the aircraft, word reached one family. To the astonishment of cabin crew, they stood up and walked off, followed quickly by others.

their loss. let them get the next plane.

some dumbass wrote:

"Some of the older children, who had seen the terror alert on television, were starting to mutter things like, 'Those two look like they're bombers.'

well if the kids thought they were bombers, then they must have been.

i hope they sue everyone involved.

Bottle_of_Smoke

spurious wrote:

Kids say what they hear at home. No child is born racist.

ehhh what did you think i meant?????

spurious

You said kids say anything comes into their heads. I was pointing out it has to be put there first. They don't dream up racist names out of nowhere.

Tha Gopher

Am I the only one who actually read the article?

Right: place yourself on a plane, in the middle of a Europewide terrorist scare. There are two Asian men who are heavily dressed for the weather who keep looking at their watches. Word is going around that one of them said something a bit "suspicious". Would you really want to fly your family on a plane with these folks? Honestly, all the racist whining is one thing, but if you put yourself on that plane, would you really want your wife and children flying on a plane with two oddly dressed Asians after a rumour has went around that they were talking about suspicoous activity? (a rumour i know, but still) . Surely the fact that the two guys are not hugely upset over the episode indicates that maybe, just maybe, they realise their own behaviour was slightly odd? If me and my friends were in a Northern pub wearing Celtic jerseys, and the manager informed us that some Protestants with children were unnerved by us, in fairness I would reassure them that we meant no trouble or anything, and would tell them to carry on as they like, that I realised why they were nervous but there would be no trouble.

So perhaps the two Asian lads, unlike a pile of white Irish uni students on boards, realise as much as anyone else that an Al Quaeda bomb does not discriminate between muslims and non muslims, as one or two innocent Muslims on July 7th 2005 found out, and realise that what they were doing in the current climate caused anxiety, that they realise this and accept it. Is it shcoking to the liberals that some muslims may believe that men in djabellas with white beards deserve a more thorough search that an elderly white grandmother? It rather reminds me of the time a Polish girl told me she honestly thought we had let too many Poles into Ireland

Irishman on boards: I cant even get work in Dunnes or McDonalds, its all Poles, we let too many in. Boards Verdict: RACIST. BAN HIM!

Polish Girl to me: You guys are really letting too many Poles come in, I know Irish people who cant even get cheap work. Boards Verdict: Yeah, whatever


I have maybe 8 or 9 Muslim friends (none of them are religious, but theyre Muslim in the same way Im Catholic, by birth if nothing else), one of whom, a very good friend, died recently but thats besides any point (apart from trying to prove Im a racist.). They are not stupid, they know that Al Quaeda bombs will not evade them if theyre in a target. I recall when I was about 16, an Iraqi Muslim schoolfriend of mine complaining about "those fcukin looners" (his words, not mine) that caused the Heathrow security alert years ago that saw tanks at the airport and flights delayed (in case you care, a relative of his in Baghdad was kidnapped, he was released after 3weeks after his family paid a ransom, so if anyone knows about the post US invasion chaos he and his family does. They werent Saddam fans but they say this is even worse) . Im fairly sure that, although he would be annoyed, he and all the rest would recognise the reason extra attention is payed to them ging thru the airports.

For everyone in this thread, I have a question. Would you gladly drive a southern registered car down the Shankill Road? It is the same basic situation- in the same way that a vast majority of British Muslimks have no inention of blowing up your flight, a vast majority of Shankill folks are probably decent people who would not think of fcuking rocks at any Southern cars passing through. But, in the same way there are some British muslims who want to blow up planes, there are some Shankill lads who want to brick southern cars. And therefore, if you have any intelligence, for that risk you dont drive a southern car through Shankill. And, in the same way, you take an extra close look at anyone who you think is muslim on public transport. Unlike most people on this thread, Im not going to lie. Since July in London, I do indeed get slightly nervous when i see people who are probably muslim carrying large bags on buses. Only in the same way I clench my fists when walking past a gang of skangers drinking on wasteground. 99.9% nothing will happen with the skangers, and an even highger percentage for the muslims, but nevertheless not taking a notice is either pure lies of pure stupidity. I can assure you, my friends who are Muslim feel the same and take the same precautions (loose dfinition, Ive 2 friends whos dads were muslim but they never really grew up with them so theyre muslim by their names only, a few Bosnian/Kosavar friends who are only muslim in the same way Nordies are Catholic, its to do with the conflict more than anything. The other Muslims I know are Irishraised but of Pakistani and Somali descent, althogh theyd describe themselves as muslim they dont live by the rules). Please do not get me wrong- I do not hate Muslims. One or two of my best friends are muslim , but I know full well that, while they hate Bush, that a suicide bomb on an Irish aircraft is a threat to them and thweir many Irish friends, and whilst they mightnt particulary appreciate being given extra attention at the airport, they know the reasons why and they accept it.

Hobbes

Everyone read the article, some people take away different things.

Here is what I read of it.
- Scruffy students speaking in another language in an airport and keep looking at thier watches.
- People think this means terrorist.
- Asked security to check them out (for a second time).
- And again for a third time.
- 12 year girl cries on the plane asking why are the terrorists are still there.

For everyone in this thread, I have a question. Would you gladly drive a southern registered car down the Shankill Road?

What year are you living in?

Tha Gopher

2006 Hobbes, the same year Michael McIveen was beaten to death.

Hobbes

Tha Gopher wrote:

2006 Hobbes, the same year Michael McIveen was beaten to death.

Last time I checked he wasn't beaten to death on the Shankill Road.

Tha Gopher

Ah, so secterianism (sp) has been wiped out from the Shankill, if only they could do the same in Ballymena.

That is quite possibly the most embarrasing petty comeback to a comment Ive seen in 3 plus years of using boards.

InFront

Gopher you've posted on that exact topic before with identical examples, except I believe it was Asians in shopping centres you were getting nervous of back then.

Your comparisons are irrelevent. Wearing a celtic jersey is not the same as being Asian - you can take off a celtic jersey (and dress appropriately btw) but you can't stop being Asian.
You can choose not to drive your southern reg car down the shankill road, but you can't choose not to be asian when you walk into an airport.

I'm not saying that an elderly white woman deserves as stringent and thorough a search as an iranian or a Pakistani, etc. My point is that if everyone has already come through security, and been given the clear, as these boys were, why should public opinion evict them from the plane? If people are nervous - get off.

I do appreciate that in this context some people can be nervous of a dark skinned passenger - okay, that is human - but that's your problem, not his.