Two Examples Why CIE Will Never Be a Professional Railway Company.

gobdaw

Er… I think he is saying that people who obey without question or inititive are more likely to comply with and implement immoral orders, such as happened in Nazi Germany. By no means all who did were Nazis, and a lot of Nazis did not work in the death camps.

By the way, the 6 million that’s always mentioned is the number of Jews murdered, the total “exterminated”, including Jews is more like 12 million. Homosexuals, mental patients, dissidents, Romany etc were also murdered, by a “civilised” and cultured society.

popebenny16

Right I am off on holidays now, will be back in two weeks for more of the same.

Well, you can always log in from where ever you are, just to see if it gets to 20 pages or so.

I have been critical of unions in the past but there is nothing in the Union rulebook about offering to wait for someone. It may well have been the fact that the PIS in the station could have indicated there was another 20 mins to the next DART that propted the helpful driver to act we dotn know enough facts to say that this was an impediment to the workings of the timetable and that.

As for litigation, i know several of the lads in the CIE solicitors office in Islandbridge and any such wall hopper would find any litigation a hard task indeed. There is still the concept of contributoty negligence. It wasnt as if he would have been jumping into a minefield in (on?) the Somme.

popebenny16

Only here can a debate about holding a train for someone end up being a debate on the mass murder of Jews and other groups by Nazi Germany. It'll be Isreal and Palestine next.....

shltter

paulm17781 wrote:

So what you meant to say is that obidient workers are no better than Nazis. Phew, got yourself out of a pickle there! :rolleyes:

That is not what I said perhaps you might read gobdaws reply it might help you to get your head around this.

paulm17781

shltter wrote:

That is not what I said perhaps you might read gobdaws reply it might help you to get your head around this.

Sorry sir, it's just when people think an obidient worker, in and a nazi are in any way related I tend not to take them seriously

lostexpectation

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Because railway stations have designated gates and entrances for passengers to come and leave these locations. Jumping over a wall at the beconkoning of a DART driver is like something out of Percy French song and does not belong is this day and age - especially on an urban tranist system. It is unprofessional and paddywackery and one fall by the wall jumper and the lawyers are on the trail and who ends up paying for this...the DART driver responsible? Not on your nelly - it'll be taxpayer and fare paying passenger.

Did the DART driver mean well by doing this and is this a sign he is a decent bloke? I am sure he did, but it was still unprofessional and as others have pointed out could of led to an accident and law suit.

Matters not how low the wall is. It's shoddy and unprofessional and the DART is not a taxi offerning casual pick-up, it operates to a timetable and train stations have gates, doorways, turnstiles designed for this very purpose. A wall no matter how low it is - is there to keep people out. That's what a wall is for.

Do I think the DART driver should be sacked for this? Of course not. He should be informed it was not on and please do not do it again.

what does some dart driver offering to wait for some person to hop over the wall, have to with the unique aspects of dominant CIE union culture

DerekP11

lostexpectation wrote:

what does some dart driver offering to wait for some person to hop over the wall, have to with the unique aspects of dominant CIE union culture

Loads.

A Dub in Glasgo

Loads of what?

shltter

paulm17781 wrote:

Sorry sir, it's just when people think an obidient worker, in and a nazi are in any way related I tend not to take them seriously

No you are still not getting I never suggested that obedient workers are related to Nazis the point is that they are more likely to conform
I suggest you look into the social psychological concepts of obedience,conformity,deindividuation, diffusion of responsibility and the power of social roles to start with.

shltter

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Loads of what?

Loads of **** you have to see that alot of these people posting here can see no good in anything that anyone associated with CIE does if the guy had wrote in to complain that the doors had been closed in his face these same people would be telling us this was proof that CIE employees dont care about the travelling public.
The guy offers to do something nice and the same people hop all over him. You can be assured if the letter had been about the LUAS these same people would be pointing to it as a demonstration of the different culture in Connex as opposed to IE.

jetsonx

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Exhibit A:

Letter to the Indo Today (unprofessional paddywackery treating a modern transit system in a major European capital like a joke ala Quiet Man station scene):

Ok this might not happen in Germany but so what. The driver was showing a
thing called humanity. I am sure the train would not have been significantly delayed on account of this or safety compromised.

Having spent time in Germany I once witnissed a disabled (aurally) couple being
thrown off an S-Bahn train for bringing a bike on board. The train was empty. The driver personally escorted them off. Not a nice scene to watch. Is this the way you want Irish rail to become - just so it can be more "professional" ?

gjim

Er… I think he is saying that people who obey without question or inititive are more likely to comply with and implement immoral orders, such as happened in Nazi Germany.

Right on brother. We'd all hate to live in a country (like evil Germany and Switzerland) where the public transport system was run by people who stick to procedures and well defined practices and act as professionals. Obviously anyone who works in public transport and who obeys and follows directions from management is the type of person who'd derive pleasure from gassing Jews and collecting their gold teeth with a pliers. I'm so glad I live in a country where living up to caricatures from Finian's Rainbow is seen as a virtue and not as an embarrassment. I feel genuine patriotic pride as I wait an around the grime of Pearse station; what a relief after experiencing the horror of the efficient, clean and well-organised Zurich HB.

shltter

gjim wrote:

Right on brother. We'd all hate to live in a country (like evil Germany and Switzerland) where the public transport system was run by people who stick to procedures and well defined practices and act as professionals. Obviously anyone who works in public transport and who obeys and follows directions from management is the type of person who'd derive pleasure from gassing Jews and collecting their gold teeth with a pliers. I'm so glad I live in a country where living up to caricatures from Finian's Rainbow is seen as a virtue and not as an embarrassment. I feel genuine patriotic pride as I wait an around the grime of Pearse station; what a relief after experiencing the horror of the efficient, clean and well-organised Zurich HB.

You see the problem is that people want it both ways they want to be able to board a bus at the traffic lights or ask the driver to let them off at the corner they want the train driver to hold the train as they run up the platform.
If they dont get those things they bitch and moan and claim they are all ignorant bastards that dont live in the real world and have cushy jobs and cant wait till its privatised because that will show the bastards.

But on the other hand if the driver does do any of those things it is unprofessional and they cant wait till its privatised because then they will have to run a professional service and that will show the bastards.

It is a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't

Just remember the next time you are running for a bus or dart and the doors close just as you get to it or the driver blanks you when you knock on the door at the lights or ask to be let off because you forgot to ring the bell or because the nearest stop is miles from your house that the driver is sticking to procedures and well defined practices and acting as a professional.

The problem is that some people here have a pathological hatred of CIE they are the kind of people who turn up 5 minutes after an accident and swear blind they seen it all and the bus was at fault.

jjbrien

jetsonx wrote:

Having spent time in Germany I once witnissed a disabled (aurally) couple being
thrown off an S-Bahn train for bringing a bike on board. The train was empty. The driver personally escorted them off. Not a nice scene to watch. Is this the way you want Irish rail to become - just so it can be more "professional" ?

This has happened to me here in good old Ireland. I got kicked out of Dun Laoghaire and Coolmine for trying to take a bike onboard on both occasions I was trying to Catch an intercity train to which you are allowed bring bikes on board. So it does not just happen in Germany the rude staff member in Dun Laoghaire told me to **** off and cycle your bike to mullingar.

paulm17781

shltter wrote:

No you are still not getting I never suggested that obedient workers are related to Nazis the point is that they are more likely to conform
I suggest you look into the social psychological concepts of obedience,conformity,deindividuation, diffusion of responsibility and the power of social roles to start with.

Honestly, don't try to lecture me on psychology, not a good idea. Now, I'll try to end this. Someone talks about obidient workers in Germany, you say "Germans also killed people in a mass genocide". These two facts have nothing to do with each other. Iraq killed over 100,000 kurds, they most likely do not have efficient public transport.

Rather than expecting me to understand "sychological concepts of obedience,conformity,deindividuation, diffusion of responsibility and the power of social roles to start with.", perhaps you should do some reading on dictatorships and the socio-economic issue that faced Germany in the 1930s. This would be a far better use of your time than implying racist (nazi like) comments that all Germans, by being obidient, are nazis. Also, there is a 'p' in psychological.

popebenny16

I mean you get this:

I suggest you look into the social psychological concepts of obedience,conformity,deindividuation, diffusion of responsibility and the power of social roles to start with.

and this:

Rather than expecting me to understand "sychological concepts of obedience,conformity,deindividuation, diffusion of responsibility and the power of social roles to start with.", perhaps you should do some reading on dictatorships and the socio-economic issue that faced Germany in the 1930s. This would be a far better use of your time than implying racist (nazi like) comments that all Germans, by being obidient, are nazis. Also, there is a 'p' in psychological.

Would you two please give it up or bugger off to the politics or humanities board?

TBH Victor, the tone here is appaling!!

shltter

paulm17781 wrote:

Honestly, don't try to lecture me on psychology, not a good idea. Now, I'll try to end this. Someone talks about obidient workers in Germany, you say "Germans also killed people in a mass genocide". These two facts have nothing to do with each other. Iraq killed over 100,000 kurds, they most likely do not have efficient public transport.

Rather than expecting me to understand "sychological concepts of obedience,conformity,deindividuation, diffusion of responsibility and the power of social roles to start with.", perhaps you should do some reading on dictatorships and the socio-economic issue that faced Germany in the 1930s. This would be a far better use of your time than implying racist (nazi like) comments that all Germans, by being obidient, are nazis. Also, there is a 'p' in psychological.

I never said all gemans are or were Nazis that would be patently untrue

If people are going to praise the Germans for their obedience and conformity it is not unreasonable to mention that very obedience and conformity contributed to the mass murder of millions of people.
Genocide can happen anywhere it is a fact that the Germans partially because of the traits praised here were particularly successful at it.

So if people are going to say why cant we be like the germans or it would not happen in Germany perhaps that is not such a bad thing that we are not like the germans.

paulm17781

I will make this my last post on this as I am sure no one else wants to read it.

I had a bus driver see me an drive off the other day. No reason he was at the stop and I knocked on the doors as they were closing. I then got a taxi home.

When I passed the bus I told the taxi driver about this. He asked "Was he Irish?" If you honestly think, with a certain type of leader in power, that something like the holocaust could not happen here, the second most racist country in Europe, you are sadly mistaken. Racism / facism is ramapant in Ireland.

German work ethics and facist past are two completely different things, associating Germans with nazi-ism by proxy is facist.

Now, let us talk about the WRC or let this whole thread die.

dr zoidberg

shltter wrote:

I never said all gemans are or were Nazis that would be patently untrue

If people are going to praise the Germans for their obedience and conformity it is not unreasonable to mention that very obedience and conformity contributed to the mass murder of millions of people.
Genocide can happen anywhere it is a fact that the Germans partially because of the traits praised here were particularly successful at it.

So if people are going to say why cant we be like the germans or it would not happen in Germany perhaps that is not such a bad thing that we are not like the germans.

This is gone completely off-topic, but this is nonsense. Anyone will comply to orders under certain conditions, and it has nothing to do with some bull**** national stereotype. Those wonderful freedom-loving Americans proved this (Milgram experiment, here and here) and it has been replicated across the world, so lets get over this ridiculousness.

I really don't see what relevance that has to the topic anyway, the way the staff in CIE act may be different but they work under different circumstances where their job is nearly guaranteed. Of course that's not as fun as perpetuating a tired national stereotype for an answer.

Red Alert

Can we quit with the CIE bashing... these people who'll immediately praise Connex and its ilk for "working on their initiative" are damning the DART driver who worked on his initiative.

Presumably ye're the same crowd that'd complain if a bus driver drove with the doors open rather swealter on a hot summer's day inside the bus.

SeanW

OK, let's stop with the Germany-bashing.

Remeber what Germany was like in the 1930s - they'd been saddled with the entire cost of the First World War, they were massively in debt, hyperinflation was out of control, and the government was so broke they had to print their currency on one side of the paper only. The national borders were so deep that even moderate politicians couldn't accept them. The country was bounded by Western opressors to the West, and commies to the East.

Then, from the ashes, an insipiring leader showed up to make great speeches about the greatness of the Fatherland, and inspire the people for a war, and Hitler was backed by an immense propoganda machine to make themselves look glorious and great. I believe they also hid some of their atrocities from the locals.

The way I look at it is when you're broke, down, dejected, downtrodden, embattled and have absoutely nothing, and somoene comes along to regail you with grand visions about the rebuilding of your nation and your greatness, chances are you're going to listen to them no matter how crazy they are, and others will just start to follow the herd, i.e. "group think" to the extreme, combined with the large amount of force build up that would keep any dissidents in line.

As to what the hell this has to do with public transport, only heaven knows. Could somoene please tell me what killing, or causing the deaths of, 100 million people has to do with some eejits throwing a temper tantrum in Mallow or a train driver offering to wait 10 sec for a potential passenger? I'm sorry but this is incredibly bleedin' stupid. BTW Sh1tter just invoked Godwin's Law. So it's time to lock this thread.
Edit: abusing Nazi references whenever you're stuck means that the more Nazi/Fascism references are used inappropriately, the less impact the term will have when somoene has a genuine use for them. Please keep that in mind please next time you decide to throw Nazi-ism into a debate on public transport.

shltter

SeanW wrote:

OK, let's stop with the Germany-bashing.

Remeber what Germany was like in the 1930s - they'd been saddled with the entire cost of the First World War, they were massively in debt, hyperinflation was out of control, and the government was so broke they had to print their currency on one side of the paper only. The national borders were so deep that even moderate politicians couldn't accept them. The country was bounded by Western opressors to the West, and commies to the East.

Then, from the ashes, an insipiring leader showed up to make great speeches about the greatness of the Fatherland, and inspire the people for a war, and Hitler was backed by an immense propoganda machine to make themselves look glorious and great. I believe they also hid some of their atrocities from the locals.

The way I look at it is when you're broke, down, dejected, downtrodden, embattled and have absoutely nothing, and somoene comes along to regail you with grand visions about the rebuilding of your nation and your greatness, chances are you're going to listen to them no matter how crazy they are, and others will just start to follow the herd, i.e. "group think" to the extreme, combined with the large amount of force build up that would keep any dissidents in line.

As to what the hell this has to do with public transport, only heaven knows. Could somoene please tell me what killing, or causing the deaths of, 100 million people has to do with some eejits throwing a temper tantrum in Mallow or a train driver offering to wait 10 sec for a potential passenger? I'm sorry but this is incredibly bleedin' stupid. BTW Sh1tter just invoked Godwin's Law.
Edit: abusing Nazi references whenever you're stuck means that the more Nazi/Fascism references are used inappropriately, the less impact the term will have when somoene has a genuine use for them. Please keep that in mind please next time you decide to throw Nazi-ism into a debate on public transport.

First of all I am not bashing Germany but if people want to invoke the germans as something we should aspire to I think it is only right that the dark side of those traits are mentioned


Second I suggest you read my posts and goodwins law again I have not compared anyone to Nazis
The subject was raised by T21 when he said that this type of behaviour would not be acceptable in Germany or Switzerland if a poster is going to put those countries up on a pedestal and suggest that Irish People should be more like them I think it is fair comment to mention the dark side of those countries.
As I said at the beginning this is not germany or Switzerland and I for one am glad it is not.

If what the dart driver did is wrong and I think derek and T21 offered some very valid reasons as to why the driver should not have encouraged a potential passenger to come over a wall irrespective of what size it is Then it is wrong irrespective of whether the germans or the swiss or any body else would tolerate it.
If posters insist on suggesting that Irish people should accept the norms of germanic society as something to aspire to then I will point out that that is not something to always aspire to .

BTW paulm last two posts are the only time I have seen goodwins law invoked here when he suggested that I was a fascist and or a nazi for raising the issue of germany past.

shltter

dr zoidberg wrote:

This is gone completely off-topic, but this is nonsense. Anyone will comply to orders under certain conditions, and it has nothing to do with some bull**** national stereotype. Those wonderful freedom-loving Americans proved this (Milgram experiment, here and here) and it has been replicated across the world, so lets get over this ridiculousness.

I really don't see what relevance that has to the topic anyway, the way the staff in CIE act may be different but they work under different circumstances where their job is nearly guaranteed. Of course that's not as fun as perpetuating a tired national stereotype for an answer.

I never suggested it could not happen anywhere else merely that the germans were probably far more successful at genocide due to the tired national stereotype

Funny how people only complain about tired national stereotypes when they are negative nobody jumps up and down when the same stereotypes are used to praise the germans for their work ethic etc as T21 did at the start of this post

paulm17781

shltter wrote:

BTW paulm last two posts are the only time I have seen goodwins law invoked here when he suggested that I was a fascist and or a nazi for raising the issue of germany past.

I said that using an example of history to judge an entire nation is a form of facism. I am correct in this.

I have no idea what Godwin's law is however I would hope it is invokeable when someone implies a dark period in a nations history has any relevance to their excellent work ethic - an example that should be followed.

As for the driver I think it is uncallable. He did the best thing to do as a person but sadly the wrong thing for his job / company. He broke the rules and that is always wrong, unfortunately in this case it was by being a friendly guy.

shltter

paulm17781 wrote:

As for the driver I think it is uncallable. He did the best thing to do as a person but sadly the wrong thing for his job / company. He broke the rules and that is always wrong, unfortunately in this case it was by being a friendly guy.

I would largely agree with that
( except the it is always wrong to break the rules)

SeanW

So the Germans have a work-ethic and good efficiency. Great.

German efficiency is like a tool, it can be good, or it can be bad depending on its usage.

Take a hammer for example. If you're feeling nice, you can use it to drive a nail. If you're feeling evil, you can use it to break somoene's skull in.

Yet there's no-one here complaining about hammers? Maybe we should all drive our nails with screwdrivers?

So it's really absurd for you to bring Nazis into this on such weak grounds, where they clearly have no place. You invoked Godwins law. Discussion over.

dowlingm

Godwin's Law
Reduction ad Hitlerum
Certificate of Hitlertude

DerekP11

shltter wrote:

You see the problem is that people want it both ways they want to be able to board a bus at the traffic lights or ask the driver to let them off at the corner they want the train driver to hold the train as they run up the platform.
If they dont get those things they bitch and moan and claim they are all ignorant bastards that dont live in the real world and have cushy jobs and cant wait till its privatised because that will show the bastards.

But on the other hand if the driver does do any of those things it is unprofessional and they cant wait till its privatised because then they will have to run a professional service and that will show the bastards.

It is a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't

Just remember the next time you are running for a bus or dart and the doors close just as you get to it or the driver blanks you when you knock on the door at the lights or ask to be let off because you forgot to ring the bell or because the nearest stop is miles from your house that the driver is sticking to procedures and well defined practices and acting as a professional.

The problem is that some people here have a pathological hatred of CIE they are the kind of people who turn up 5 minutes after an accident and swear blind they seen it all and the bus was at fault.

I stand over my original point that the driver was wrong to encourage the person to climb over any obstacle that was not part of an official entrance/exit route to the station, while also holding the train. From my point of view, I'd rather you didn't try to generalise everyone here as a person who would attempt to use this particular situation as some kind of incentive to be two faced in relation to customer service issues within CIE. Many of us accept that the customer cannot have it both ways, as you claim.

John R

DerekP11 wrote:

I stand over my original point that the driver was wrong to encourage the person to climb over any obstacle that was not part of an official entrance/exit route to the station, while also holding the train. From my point of view, I'd rather you didn't try to generalise everyone here as a person who would attempt to use this particular situation as some kind of incentive to be two faced in relation to customer service issues within CIE. Many of us accept that the customer cannot have it both ways, as you claim.

The problem here is that there are a significant number of posters who do just that, championed by their ringleader; the OP of this thread.

That prompts other posters to go overboard in defence of their POV and the whole discussion degenerates into a pointless nazi-reference slanging match.

Victor

I'm going to lock this and tidy it up later.

BEHAVE!