Two Examples Why CIE Will Never Be a Professional Railway Company.

MarkoP11

Point is simple in any other business the two guys in Mallow would be handed P45's and thrown out, problem is they know that won't happen since there is no one to take there place. There is a problem in Cork it is well known, there are labour court backed procedures for dealing with issues, the union isn't complaining which leads you to believe the staff are not getting support it is becoming clear that the unions are not representing the staff on the issues they need help with leaving them to fend for themselves. Two of the last three problems in Cork have been due to staff taking unofficial action being unhappy with the result of a disciplinary action, the normal proceedure is to appeal not to strike

The strike in Cork in May was in fact triggered by an 11th hour decision by Dublin based management. Driver showed up (at his required booking on time) refused to drive the train since it could not be made serviceable in time, offered to take out another train (the normal set) which was available, spare and serviceable, spare link driver did same. It suited Irish Rail to disrupt 60,000 odd people, if the plan as per the notice issued to staff had been followed there is a strong chance nothing would have happened.

As far as I am aware the reliability of the Cobh service has improved significantly over the last few years, the frequency has improved, its now better than one Dublin commuter line in terms of services. The old coaches have been sold for scrap since extra railcars from Dublin have arrived. Passenger numbers for Cork suburban are quite significant the loadings on a train at 6:15 am are always going to be light. There are some operational problems at Kent stations due to the lack of platforms which is to be dealt with. Cork Cobh for all its faults quietly gets on with it and the fares are quite low

BTW this 'wall' in Booterstown is a railing about 2.5 feet tall at the Blackrock end of the southbound platform, there has been some confusion in recent weeks since a second footbridge went in particularly when the station is unstaffed late at night. Many stations have a back gate of sorts anyone who uses Kildare will be familiar with the stile, when a Irish Rail manager declared it unofficial and stated at a public meeting that it would have to be closed the reaction of the crowd triggered a total U turn and a blind eye is turned to fact several hundred a day use it

DerekP11

Climbing over anything to access a station is unacceptable. Blind eye or not, accicents happen and suddenly the blind eye will be expected to have 20/20 vision in the courts. Its not a professional, safe or a correct way of doing things. Furthermore holding a train in this fashion, is, in my opinion, out of order.

Did someone else mention "paddywhackery", coz thats what it is. Running onto the platform via the correct and designated entrance and getting spotted by the driver is one thing and can be accepted. But, I repeat, being encouraged to climb over anything to access the platform via a non-designated entrance/exit point(and I don't care what height it is) by IE staff is not acceptable.

Im going to do a WRC supporter routine on this one and....not budge.:D

strassenwolf

I don't understand one thing about the Booterstown incident. At what stage was the would-be passenger supposed to purchase a ticket?

gjim

But this is not Germany or Switzerland we probably could not organise to gas 6 million people to death or hide the gold for the people who did either. But hey we are not perfect.

This is an outragous comment. You've proven yourself not only to be a humourless self-interested bore but a nasty xenophobe too. Pretty typical of the more extreme trade unionist in Ireland unfortunately as demonstrated by SIPTU's and Labour's recent disgraceful "no more immigrants" outbursts.

jjbrien

The one thing that alway puzzels me about IE staff and I seen it today again. How come they refuse to wear the proper uniform? If you go to germany and norway you see DB and NSB staff perfectly turned out. If you go to Connolly, Mullingar or most IE station you see most staff members looking rather scruffy in high visability waistcoats and there own civi clothes or they are waering an old IE uniform from years ago which is not the current uniform. Another reason why they will never be a professional rail company.

Transport21 Fan

BuffyBot wrote:

Anyway, it's very easy to select out some "bad" things which happen. It's easier to ignore all the positive stuff that CIE employees do (such as the driver I encountered on the 748 the other day, who couldn't do enough to help the tourists with luggage, figuring out where they needed to get off, ticketing etc). Perhaps people should start some threads for each positive encounter, balancing the karma a little.

I shagged a CIE female bus driver once.

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhhhhh? Nah, sorry. CIE are a terrible company filled with people who are unfit to work in public transport. Wish I could, but ya know the truth and all that...

Is it just me or has Buffybot actually posted something to this board which comes close to a contribution actually worth reading!

murphaph

Did you go all the way with her T21?

Dub13

Transport Fan are you a one issue poster...?All off your posts I read you are moaning about public transport.

Transport21 Fan

murphaph wrote:

Did you go all the way with her T21?

She was a nice girl. I respected her as a person. But when I saw her in the Dublin Bus uniform the following morning asking me if I wanted a coffee, I felt cheap and I knew I had lower myself. My only excuse was there were no independent bus companies or CONNEX in the 1980's. Part of growing up I guess.

Transport21 Fan

Dub13 wrote:

Transport Fan are you a one issue poster...?All off your posts I read you are moaning about public transport.

Correction, I think the LUAS is fantastic and praise it constantly.

Dub13

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Correction, I think the LUAS is fantastic and praise it constantly.

Thats grand if you are on the southside.

Transport21 Fan

Rome wasn't built in a day...The Northside will have a fantastic Metro which will make it the envy of the entire country which won't be contaminated by the CIE union disease.

Other than the property game, CIE is an obsolete brand at this point. Not that this matters to the vast majority of CIE employees as they would be just as happy flipping burgers, giving Turkish massages, or opening apartment building doors in their top hats as they would driving buses and trains. Once they have an unsackable, job for life and a chance to sort-out their son's into the publically-funded CIE union "family" business they don't care.

Of course there is a percentage of dedicated public transport professionals within CIE (whom I have the upmost respect for), but they'll all eventually be working in other public transport providers in the years to come were they can advance their careers and skills based on merit and not be dependent on the NBRU to baby them through life like Papa and Junior in Mallow.

markpb

Dub13 wrote:

Transport Fan are you a one issue poster...?All off your posts I read you are moaning about public transport.

What's wrong with that? Public transport in Dublin is totally sub-standard but most people seem happy to accept it. If he's not happy, why shouldn't he complain?

Besides, as he's already said, its not public transport - its CIE/DB/IR and he's mostly on the ball.

Dub13

markpb wrote:

What's wrong with that? Public transport in Dublin is totally sub-standard but most people seem happy to accept it. If he's not happy, why shouldn't he complain?

Besides, as he's already said, its not public transport - its CIE/DB/IR and he's mostly on the ball.

I did not say anything was wrong with it but we get the point,T21 does not like CIE/DB/IR there staff or the way these company's are managed.Point taken its his/her opinion some will agree with it some will not,but there comes a point when it just becomes spam.

Boards.ie Commuting/Transport forum is for the members of Boards to discuss Commuting/Transport issues and not for any particular lobby group to push there agenda.If anybody feels that strongly about something lobby your TDs,MEPs or CIE management and let the Commuting/Transport forum breath a little.

Transport21 Fan

Dub13 wrote:

I did not say anything was wrong with it but we get the point,T21 does not like CIE/DB/IR there staff or the way these company's are managed.Point taken its his/her opinion some will agree with it some will not,but there comes a point when it just becomes spam.

Boards.ie Commuting/Transport forum is for the members of Boards to discuss Commuting/Transport issues and not for any particular lobby group to push there agenda.If anybody feels that strongly about something lobby your TDs,MEPs or CIE management and let the Commuting/Transport forum breath a little.

But what about the pro-CIE union agenda which goes on here as well? I don't see me, others who hold similar opinions as myself, or any P11 members on this board demanding that the NBRU be banned from Boards.ie Commuting/Transport forum.

You do realise that the people standing at bus stops and train stations have a stake in this whole public transport thing as well? That's it's not all about Papa and Babyboy's hurt feelings in Mallow.

I hate to break the news to you, but the NBRU is a lobby for itself and no one else - where were the NBRU in the past when rail lines were closed and bus services curtailed? Were were the NBRU when Spencer Dock was sacrificed to property developers at the expense of public transport development in our capital, were was the NBRU when ILDA almost destroyed the rail network in 2001?

P11 on the other hand stands to gain nothing personal other than a world class rail system which will benefit all. I am 100% behind P11 in this. Honestly, do you think the people who missed their trains because of the family crises at Mallow last week are not going to take my side when it comes to attacking the union behaviour within CIE, or is the CIE union's psychological landscape so profoundly out of synch with reality that you honestly believe that bus and rail passengers in this country will glady suffer through lightning strikes and industrial action for the well being of the NBRU and cherishing of CIE and all it represents?

If this involves myself boring some of you with certain cultural aspects which are at the root of many of the problems within CIE rail services, then it gets stated. Either you debate me or you ignore me.

and again, I don't see P11 or myself demanding that you and the other CIE union people on this board be silenced because we don't see eye to eye.

Jesus, listen to yourself! You cannot honestly be suggesting that CIE union lobbyist have this board as their open forum and people who disagree should be banned. I can see the likes of Shiller or Buffybot thinking like that, but you stating such a thing I am really surprised by.

Dub13

Transport21 Fan wrote:

If this involves myself boring some of you with certain cultural aspects which are at the root of many of the problems within CIE rail services, then it gets stated. Either you debate me or you ignore me.

and again, I don't see P11 or myself demanding that you and the other CIE union people on this board be silenced because we don't see eye to eye.

Jesus, listen to yourself! You cannot honestly be suggesting that CIE union lobbyist have this board as their open forum and people who disagree should be banned. I can see the likes of Shiller or Buffybot thinking like that, but you stating such a thing I am really surprised by.

First off I never asked for anybody to be banned.I think you are picking me up wrong,I agree with alot of the stuff you and the P11 guys post I disagree with other stuff you post but I do not fell strongly enough about it to have a long protracted debate on these issues.But I read the threads with great interest.

I did not suggest for one min that anybody have an open forum here,I am in favor of a open and honest debate I just think that this issue (CIE) is slowly starting to take over this forum.If a thread is started about any CIE operation the same core issues are dragged up again and again,and I feel it could be turning a few people away from the Commuting / Transport forum.So my concern is not that any particular lobby group or agenda gets pushed or one gets more space than the other, my concern is for the general well being of this forum.

lostexpectation

that first letter turned up in the sunday indo today, in a slighlty extended (less edited form)??

methinks it must be T21 writing ****e to even more forums?

parsi

MarkoP11 wrote:

Point is simple in any other business the two guys in Mallow would be handed P45's and thrown out, problem is they know that won't happen since there is no one to take there place. There is a problem in Cork it is well known, there are labour court backed procedures for dealing with issues, the union isn't complaining which leads you to believe the staff are not getting support it is becoming clear that the unions are not representing the staff on the issues they need help with leaving them to fend for themselves. Two of the last three problems in Cork have been due to staff taking unofficial action being unhappy with the result of a disciplinary action, the normal proceedure is to appeal not to strike

The strike in Cork in May was in fact triggered by an 11th hour decision by Dublin based management. Driver showed up (at his required booking on time) refused to drive the train since it could not be made serviceable in time, offered to take out another train (the normal set) which was available, spare and serviceable, spare link driver did same. It suited Irish Rail to disrupt 60,000 odd people, if the plan as per the notice issued to staff had been followed there is a strong chance nothing would have happened.

As far as I am aware the reliability of the Cobh service has improved significantly over the last few years, the frequency has improved, its now better than one Dublin commuter line in terms of services. The old coaches have been sold for scrap since extra railcars from Dublin have arrived. Passenger numbers for Cork suburban are quite significant the loadings on a train at 6:15 am are always going to be light. There are some operational problems at Kent stations due to the lack of platforms which is to be dealt with. Cork Cobh for all its faults quietly gets on with it and the fares are quite low

BTW this 'wall' in Booterstown is a railing about 2.5 feet tall at the Blackrock end of the southbound platform, there has been some confusion in recent weeks since a second footbridge went in particularly when the station is unstaffed late at night. Many stations have a back gate of sorts anyone who uses Kildare will be familiar with the stile, when a Irish Rail manager declared it unofficial and stated at a public meeting that it would have to be closed the reaction of the crowd triggered a total U turn and a blind eye is turned to fact several hundred a day use it

This is definitely one of the best posts I have seen coming from a P11 person. It's clear , informative and isn't taking cheap swipes..

deRanged

MarkoP11 wrote:

As far as I am aware the reliability of the Cobh service has improved significantly over the last few years, the frequency has improved, its now better than one Dublin commuter line in terms of services. The old coaches have been sold for scrap since extra railcars from Dublin have arrived. Passenger numbers for Cork suburban are quite significant the loadings on a train at 6:15 am are always going to be light. There are some operational problems at Kent stations due to the lack of platforms which is to be dealt with.

I've been using the Cobh Cork line since '89.
Right now it's running as a fantastic service, and the ever increasing numbers of passengers are showing this. There was a time when you'd expect a 5-10 minute delay as par for the course, now you've to watch that they don't arrive a few minutes early. It's become cause for surprise when they're a couple of minutes late.
There's plenty of room for improvements, but that's natural.
With increased investment it'll only get better, and as I live on the junction of the Cobh and new Midleton lines I should have a fantastic service in a couple of years.

Cork Cobh for all its faults quietly gets on with it and the fares are quite low

ssh. don't ruin it

I'm no Irish Rail fanboy but credit where credit is due.

shltter

Transport21 Fan wrote:

But what about the pro-CIE union agenda which goes on here as well? I don't see me, others who hold similar opinions as myself, or any P11 members on this board demanding that the NBRU be banned from Boards.ie Commuting/Transport forum.

You do realise that the people standing at bus stops and train stations have a stake in this whole public transport thing as well? That's it's not all about Papa and Babyboy's hurt feelings in Mallow.

I hate to break the news to you, but the NBRU is a lobby for itself and no one else - where were the NBRU in the past when rail lines were closed and bus services curtailed? Were were the NBRU when Spencer Dock was sacrificed to property developers at the expense of public transport development in our capital, were was the NBRU when ILDA almost destroyed the rail network in 2001?

P11 on the other hand stands to gain nothing personal other than a world class rail system which will benefit all. I am 100% behind P11 in this. Honestly, do you think the people who missed their trains because of the family crises at Mallow last week are not going to take my side when it comes to attacking the union behaviour within CIE, or is the CIE union's psychological landscape so profoundly out of synch with reality that you honestly believe that bus and rail passengers in this country will glady suffer through lightning strikes and industrial action for the well being of the NBRU and cherishing of CIE and all it represents?

If this involves myself boring some of you with certain cultural aspects which are at the root of many of the problems within CIE rail services, then it gets stated. Either you debate me or you ignore me.

and again, I don't see P11 or myself demanding that you and the other CIE union people on this board be silenced because we don't see eye to eye.

Jesus, listen to yourself! You cannot honestly be suggesting that CIE union lobbyist have this board as their open forum and people who disagree should be banned. I can see the likes of Shiller or Buffybot thinking like that, but you stating such a thing I am really surprised by.

As usual you jump in with both feet without bothering to check any of your details like for example most of the rail closures in Ireland took place before the NBU now NBRU even came into existence.

The NBU only accepted rail members in 1979 long after the big rail closures

And the NBRU encouraged its members to work while the ILDA lockout was ongoing as the NBRU and SIPTU were more concerned about mantaining the status quo in CIE than having another union threading in on their cosy relationship with CIE management.
It is actually funny that you are so rabidly anti union that you failed to see what the ILDA were actually about that they had the same agenda as you although for very different reasons.

And yes the NBRU is a lobby for itself unfortunately it should be a lobby for its membership but it is not.
And both unions to my knowledge have always opposed closures and curtailments however at the end of the day there job is not to look after the interest of the travelling public that is for organisations like platform11.
But anyone interested in public transport should recognise that proper public transport is not goping to be delivered by people who are being made paid minimum wage by some multinational non union recognising transport company.

And I have to agree with the poster your posts are monotonous and boring you are becoming a one trick pony where trade unions are bad CIE is worse and the RPA is the bees knees. YAWN

Chris_533976

deRanged wrote:

I've been using the Cobh Cork line since '89.
Right now it's running as a fantastic service, and the ever increasing numbers of passengers are showing this. There was a time when you'd expect a 5-10 minute delay as par for the course, now you've to watch that they don't arrive a few minutes early. It's become cause for surprise when they're a couple of minutes late.
There's plenty of room for improvements, but that's natural.
With increased investment it'll only get better, and as I live on the junction of the Cobh and new Midleton lines I should have a fantastic service in a couple of years.



ssh. don't ruin it

I'm no Irish Rail fanboy but credit where credit is due.

I agree with all this.

I used to rant constantly about the Cork-Cobh line. Living in Cobh, I use it a lot. Its come on leaps and bounds recently. Decent frequency now, usually on time, proper announcements of stations and although its getting more expensive, its pretty good overall.

Thesedays, it seems to be always full. Thats good in that it shows that people are willing to use public transport if its provided well. In this case, you'll soon see a more frequent service, and more happy customers.

By IRISH standards, its very good. By international standards, theres still room for improvement, but its certainally the best service Irish Rail have to offer thesedays.

Transport21 Fan

shltter wrote:

And I have to agree with the poster your posts are monotonous and boring you are becoming a one trick pony where trade unions are bad CIE is worse and the RPA is the bees knees. YAWN

I am not being brought into a flamewar. Stick with the topic at hand.

John R

Transport21 Fan wrote:

This is priceless coming form sombody who's posts (and yes I did a look back over them) 100% exclusively to do with defending trade unions and absolutely nothing else.

Really, he has never posted about another topic, not once?

So I assume you did this extensive research into shltter's 1000+ posts some time ago seeing as the boards search engine has been disabled for several weeks now. Or could it be that as with so many of your facts you just making this up here and now?

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Well other than following me like a dumped girlfreind who can't move on.

shltter: join date: Oct 2004
Transport21 Fan: join date: Jan 2006

Who is following who again?

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Honestly shltter, I don't know you personally and I do not hate you or anything like that as we never met, but you calling me a Nazi the other day really exposed you for what you are. That more or less validated everything I have posted on this forum about the more repugnant aspects of the Labour Party/Trade Unions.

Just go and do the crossword puzzel in the Socialist Worker or something or watch the Strumpet City dvd for the 5,000 time.

Calling someone a nazi is personal abuse which is against the rules of most forums here, please point out the exact post so it can be dealt with appropriately.

If in fact shltter did not call you a nazi then I guess you are the one who has crossed the line with that accusation.

Transport21 Fan

John R, I deleted that stuff becuase I am not interested in flame wars with shiller and as soon as it was up I thought to myself "why am I even paying attention to this person" and cleared it - you got there inbetween.

I just want to talk about transport and if that includes pointing out that the a certain dominant CIE union culture is a huge part of the problem then you and the other semi-state lads need to deal with it. BECAUSE IT IS TRUE. Sorry it just is.

He implied I was a Nazi becuase I said the behaviour of certain CIE rail staff would not be tolerated in Germany or Switzerland. One poster here already took the comment. Go find the post yourself if you want to see it, I am not your butler. Take it up with the moderators if you want answers on why he is still here and yes, I could not find one post by him were he was not defending the unions.

PS: I post a hell of a lot more stuff than just anti-CIE stuff. It's some people's memory which is highly selective, not my topics.

Look at the WRC threads and loads other. I have also stated on several thread that I only have issues with the radical elements of the unions in CIE and the overall poor leadrship within these unions as the lowest common denominator seems to set the agenda. I think CIE management are half the problem as well. My posts are very far from being black and white - and yes I do think the RPA are lightyears ahead of CIE right now...

Now can we please just get back to talking about how an NBRU family crisis in Mallow shut down the main line between Dublin and Cork and the wall jumpers on the DART. This is what the thread is about, not me.

Pops and Junior in Mallow would of been sacked in any private sector company. They know the union will protect them. Same for the greedy DART drivers last year and the other shower of chancers with the new coaches. Taxpayers, public transport users, the media and the Government are far too accepting and tolerant of this carry on.

Irish society has just been conditioned to accept this behavior as part of what public transport is. This is why many choose to drive instead.

lostexpectation

what does some dart driver offering to wait for some person to hop over the wall, have to with the unique aspects of dominant CIE union culture

Diaspora

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Now can we please just get back to talking about how an NBRU family crisis in Mallow shut down the main line between Dublin and Cork and the wall jumpers on the DART. This is what the thread is about, not me.

So why are there not two threads firstly dealing with unofficial action in Mallow and a second on a Dart driver offering to hold up a train for 30 seconds to facilitate a commuter.

I think that the title of this thread illustrates the lack of differentiation between issues that has dilluted the quality of this forum led on by a number of individuals. A lot of it is only fit for the thunderdome

shltter

Transport21 Fan wrote:

John R, I deleted that stuff becuase I am not interested in flame wars with shiller and as soon as it was up I thought to myself "why am I even paying attention to this person" and cleared it - you got there inbetween.

I just want to talk about transport and if that includes pointing out that the a certain dominant CIE union culture is a huge part of the problem then you and the other semi-state lads need to deal with it. BECAUSE IT IS TRUE. Sorry it just is.

He implied I was a Nazi becuase I said the behaviour of certain CIE rail staff would not be tolerated in Germany or Switzerland. One poster here already took the comment. Go find the post yourself if you want to see it, I am not your butler. Take it up with the moderators if you want answers on why he is still here and yes, I could not find one post by him were he was not defending the unions.

PS: I post a hell of a lot more stuff than just anti-CIE stuff. It's some people's memory which is highly selective, not my topics.

Look at the WRC threads and loads other. I have also stated on several thread that I only have issues with the radical elements of the unions in CIE and the overall poor leadrship within these unions as the lowest common denominator seems to set the agenda. I think CIE management are half the problem as well. My posts are very far from being black and white - and yes I do think the RPA are lightyears ahead of CIE right now...

Now can we please just get back to talking about how an NBRU family crisis in Mallow shut down the main line between Dublin and Cork and the wall jumpers on the DART. This is what the thread is about, not me.

Pops and Junior in Mallow would of been sacked in any private sector company. They know the union will protect them. Same for the greedy DART drivers last year and the other shower of chancers with the new coaches. Taxpayers, public transport users, the media and the Government are far too accepting and tolerant of this carry on.

Irish society has just been conditioned to accept this behavior as part of what public transport is. This is why many choose to drive instead.

I never implied you were a Nazi

My post was about the fact that germans willingness to follow the rules and do what they are told led them to murder 6 million people
While you see the good side of that willingness to follow rules without question I was pointing out the downside of that german trait.

Transport21 Fan

lostexpectation wrote:

what does some dart driver offering to wait for some person to hop over the wall, have to with the unique aspects of dominant CIE union culture

Because railway stations have designated gates and entrances for passengers to come and leave these locations. Jumping over a wall at the beconkoning of a DART driver is like something out of Percy French song and does not belong is this day and age - especially on an urban tranist system. It is unprofessional and paddywackery and one fall by the wall jumper and the lawyers are on the trail and who ends up paying for this...the DART driver responsible? Not on your nelly - it'll be taxpayer and fare paying passenger.

Did the DART driver mean well by doing this and is this a sign he is a decent bloke? I am sure he did, but it was still unprofessional and as others have pointed out could of led to an accident and law suit.

Matters not how low the wall is. It's shoddy and unprofessional and the DART is not a taxi offerning casual pick-up, it operates to a timetable and train stations have gates, doorways, turnstiles designed for this very purpose. A wall no matter how low it is - is there to keep people out. That's what a wall is for.

Do I think the DART driver should be sacked for this? Of course not. He should be informed it was not on and please do not do it again.

Do I think the family of commrades in Mallow should be sacked. ABSOLUTELY!

"My son has hunt feelings...let shut the entire Dublin Cork rail line down...I have stress...right lads no DARTs today...Mark 4s are unsafe I need more money...they are moving the bus top...me and charlo want compensations..."

and it goes on and on and on...while more and more Irish people continue to drive more and more cars...

Transport21 Fan

I got carried away with the CIE Unions Disease comment as it was a bit much. It's more of a instutionalised protection racket were the commuters of this country are used as pawns by CIE unions.

"you wanna go to work, you do what the NBRU says or else". It's no differnet than animals like Liam Lawlor and Charlie Haughy demanding a bag of fivers for a favour. The mindset is the same.

Political Stroke for a planning application and CIE Union Strike so we can use the new trains, the dynamic is the same and is the end result...self-serving greed at the expense of the average Joe in this country.

Right I am off on holidays now, will be back in two weeks for more of the same.

paulm17781

shltter wrote:

My post was about the fact that germans willingness to follow the rules and do what they are told led them to murder 6 million people
While you see the good side of that willingness to follow rules without question I was pointing out the downside of that german trait.

So what you meant to say is that obidient workers are no better than Nazis. Phew, got yourself out of a pickle there! :rolleyes: