How Ireland deals with issues relating to sex. What I think needs to be changed...

Conar

I'm going a bit off topic here but its about prostitution so what the hell!
Did anyone ever see the strangeness in the fact that America allows people to be paid to have sex in front of the camera (i.e. for a porn flick) yet it is illegal for a man to pay a woman to have sex with them????

Following on from that, could people in the states not simply pretend they were setting up a porn movie to get around his law?

Cantab.

In summary, I refute this concept of individualism as being the answer to all our woes. Some might say but neither is Catholicism, and people are entitled to believe this (obviously me being a Catholic, I won't condone moral individualism). AFAIK, there is only one truth.

But Catholics are part of society too and have firmly held beliefs just as the liberal majority on this forum have. We will not supress our beliefs according to the popular vote of a particular time (often motivated by tax policy and party politics) and will stand firm against this wave of anti-Catholic sentiment that is becoming more and more prevalent in Irish society.

Good night and Go Catholics!

coffee_cake

Cantab. wrote:

In summary, I refute this concept of individualism as being the answer to all our woes. Some might say but neither is Catholicism, and people are entitled to believe this (obviously me being a Catholic, I won't condone moral individualism). AFAIK, there is only one truth.

But Catholics are part of society too and have firmly held beliefs just as the liberal majority on this forum have. We will not supress our beliefs according to the popular vote of a particular time (often motivated by tax policy and party politics) and will stand firm against this wave of anti-Catholic sentiment that is becoming more and more prevalent in Irish society.

Good night and Go Catholics!

Hey, I was trying to help you out :rolleyes:

LadyJ

Cantab. wrote:

We will not supress our beliefs according to the popular vote of a particular time (often motivated by tax policy and party politics) and will stand firm against this wave of anti-Catholic sentiment that is becoming more and more prevalent in Irish society.

It's not anti-Catholic,it's pro not-wiping-out-humanity-with-STDs.

Cantab.

LadyJ wrote:

However,in response to your first statement,promoting condoms is not promoting casual sex,it's promoting safe sex.

There's no such thing as 'safe sex'.

LadyJ wrote:

It's helping people have sex without having a child a child every year.

At least you're being consistent in your argument, but your initial moral thinking is fundamentally flawed afaik.

LadyJ wrote:

I really hope you're old because it pains me to think that these kinds of views will still exist in 20 years.

No actually, I'm of the new breed of Catholic young people in Ireland and at 24, I'm here for as long as God wants me here!

Dirk Gently

meh, I think its fair enough to disagree with conservative catholic views while on a public thread dealing with sex attitudes. I would be part of the problem if I didn't disagree and simply left it unchallenged. I'm not stopping any individual practicing catholic methods, just saying they're not a solution to society’s problems. (Unless everyone willingly converted to Catholicism and was happy enough to restrict their own freedoms) I think its fair enough to catholic bash on this issue as I'm not so much bashing catholicism but I'm bashing catholicisms involvement in sexual education.
If I just earned myself a ban then so be it.

Cantab.

LadyJ wrote:

It's not anti-Catholic,it's pro not-wiping-out-humanity-with-STDs.

Yeah, because Catholics want to erradicate the non-believers with STDs... Get real.

Conar

Cantab. wrote:

Yeah, because Catholics want to erradicate the non-believers with STDs... Get real.

You're twisting her words there Cantab.

coffee_cake

clown bag wrote:

meh, I think its fair enough to disagree with conservative catholic views while on a public thread dealing with sex attitudes. I would be part of the problem if I didn't disagree and simply left it unchallenged. I'm not stopping any individual practicing catholic methods, just saying they're not a solution to society’s problems. (Unless everyone willingly converted to Catholicism and was happy enough to restrict their own freedoms) I think its fair enough to catholic bash on this issue as I'm not so much bashing catholicism but I'm bashing catholicisms involvement in sexual education.
If I just earned myself a ban then so be it.

Oh of course disagreeing is fine, I just meant let's have less of the "and we know all catholics are irrational so let's ignore them"

DOLEMAN

Cantab. wrote:

There's no such thing as 'safe sex'.

Fair point. "Safer sex".

If you leave out the religious aspect of your arguments, what are you left with?

PS I hope you know it's extremely rude to force your own moral and religious beliefs down someones throat. Please understand only you believe these views and you will not change anyones opinion. They are extremely extreme and not based on logic or reality.

LadyJ

Cantab. wrote:

Yeah, because Catholics want to erradicate the non-believers with STDs... Get real.

Well I'm afraid if condoms are forbidden then they'll be wiping out everyone ultimately,God-fearing or not!

Anyway,Cantab,I respect your opinions but I can't say that I agree with them in any shape or form. As long as you don't take away my contraception then I won't tread on your beliefs!

Cantab.

clown bag wrote:

meh, I think its fair enough to disagree with conservative catholic views while on a public thread dealing with sex attitudes. I would be part of the problem if I didn't disagree and simply left it unchallenged. I'm not stopping any individual practicing catholic methods, just saying they're not a solution to society’s problems. (Unless everyone willingly converted to Catholicism and was happy enough to restrict their own freedoms) I think its fair enough to catholic bash on this issue as I'm not so much bashing catholicism but I'm bashing catholicisms involvement in sexual education.
If I just earned myself a ban then so be it.

And why shouldn't a school with a Catholic ethos be in charge of its own sexual ethics program given that matters of faith and morals are central to the Church?

Liberal theology should not be allowed worm its way into Catholic schools under the auspices of 'sex education'.

Parents who want such views instilled in their children should send their children to aethist schools and stop demanding that the Church change their views to satisfy this liberal majority that I keep talking about!

Ok, I'm off for the night now. Thanks all for the discussion!

kiffer

The way forward should, IMHO, include honest and frank education about sex[1] and access to condoms, If you would like your children to abstain from sex untill their wedding night you can tell them that it's what God wants and if you've brought them up to be good christians then they'll believe you and abstain...
How ever they should still know the dangers involved and how to protect themselves should they choose to ignore your teachings.

[1] Children need to be told what's dangerous and what they can do to protect themselves, I have nothing against young people having sex but children really need to know that the only 100% safe sex is no sex, but should they choose to ignore such warnings ... which many will ... they need to know how to protect themselves.
Not telling them the truth about things and keeping them in the dark will just lead to trouble.

Teenagers are physicaly ready to have sex even if they are not emotionaly ready... you might say that god made them that way... If they don't know anything they'll just do what comes naturaly.

Telling them that such urges are evil isn't helpful...

coffee_cake

Liberal theology should not be allowed worm its way into Catholic schools under the auspices of 'sex education'.

Telling them the actual effectiveness of condoms etc isn't liberal theology, it's cold hard fact. You can still follow it up with "but don't use them because it's wrong"

Conar

Cantab. wrote:

And why shouldn't a school with a Catholic ethos be in charge of its own sexual ethics program given that matters of faith and morals are central to the Church?

Parents who want such views instilled in their children should send their children to aethist schools and stop demanding that the Church change their views to satisfy this liberal majority that I keep talking about!

Firstly the catholic church already controls nearly every school in Ireland. If we could start again this might work.
Secondly I really don't think that segregation is the answer, it only ever causes problems!

Tar.Aldarion

Cantab. wrote:

Go Catholics!

Catholics...
Catholics...
Catholics, **** YEAH!
Coming again, to save the mother ****ing day yeah,
Catholics, **** YEAH!
Freedom is the not only way yeah,
Sinners your game is through cause now you have to answer too,
Catholics, **** YEAH!
So lick my butt, and suck on my balls,
Catholics, **** YEAH!
What you going to do when we come for you now,
it’s the dream that we all share; it’s the hope for tomorrow.

**** YEAH!

Jesus, **** YEAH!
STI's, **** YEAH!
The Pentecost, **** YEAH!
Ned Flanders, **** YEAH!
The Pope, ****, YEAH!
Christian Rock, **** YEAH!
The New Testiment, **** YEAH!
Revelation, **** YEAH!

**** YEAH!

The Host, **** YEAH!
Walking on water, **** YEAH!
zacharias, **** YEAH!
Abstinence, **** YEAH!
Weddings, **** YEAH!
Immaculate Conception, **** YEAH!
Knights of Columbus, **** YEAH!
Mortal Sin, **** YEAH!
Pectoral Cross, **** YEAH!
Women... (**** yeah, **** yeah)

Morals, **** YEAH!
One Truth, **** YEAH!
AIDS, **** YEAH!
The Seraphim, **** YEAH!
Bethlehem, **** YEAH!
Christmas, **** YEAH!
The Trinity, **** YEAH!
Our Father, **** YEAH!
Only one Truth, **** YEAH!
condoms (condoms..)
(**** yeah, **** yeah...)
Logic..
Jews...

Dirk Gently

Cantab. wrote:

And why shouldn't a school with a Catholic ethos be in charge of its own sexual ethics program given that matters of faith and morals are central to the Church?

Liberal theology should not be allowed worm its way into Catholic schools under the auspices of 'sex education'.

Parents who want such views instilled in their children should send their children to aethist schools and stop demanding that the Church change their views to satisfy this liberal majority that I keep talking about!

Ok, I'm off for the night now. Thanks all for the discussion!

Because its a state school system and even though the schools are run by religious organisations propper sexual education should be allowed as well as backward mythology. It's failing young citizens of this country to deny them an essential education. By only exposing them to backward mythology and not real life education these schools are delibertly perverting their education and endangering their health.

Conar

clown bag wrote:

Because its a state school system and even though the schools are run by religious organisations propper sexual education should be allowed as well as backward mythology. It's failing young citizens of this country to deny them an essential education. By only exposing them to backward mythology and not real life education these schools are delibertly perverting their education and endangering their health.

OK, I held back long enough.
Listen to clown bags comments carefully catholic people.
Imagine the majority of schools near you taught kids what you felt was the crazed teachings of a nonsensical cult. Then take it a step further and realise that in every town its the same so its not just the one you live in.
My daughter goes to a lovely Irish school. Great teachers, great emphasis on education and sport, but they also say their prayers in the line every morning which drives me absolutely crazy.
Religion should not be taught in school at all unless it is a private school in my opinion. Just like my beliefs (being that having any faith is ridiculous) should not be taught to kids.
My daughter sometimes comes home talking about Jesus, imagine your kids came home saying that Jesus didn't exist because all the schools were Jewish or even Atheist.
If you think kids need extra schooling on religion then set up a Sunday school system like the protestants (maybe presbyterians) have.

I hope I did not insult anyones faith as I simply mean to show you what its like for the other side.

LadyJ

Conar wrote:

OK, I held back long enough.
Listen to clown bags comments carefully catholic people.
Imagine the majority of schools near you taught kids what you felt was the crazed teachings of a nonsensical cult. Then take it a step further and realise that in every town its the same so its not just the one you live in.
My daughter goes to a lovely Irish school. Great teachers, great emphasis on education and sport, but they also say their prayers in the line every morning which drives me absolutely crazy.
Religion should not be taught in school at all unless it is a private school in my opinion. Just like my beliefs (being that having any faith is ridiculous) should not be taught to kids.
My daughter sometimes comes home talking about Jesus, imagine your kids came home saying that Jesus didn't exist because all the schools were Jewish or even Atheist.
If you think kids need extra schooling on religion then set up a Sunday school system like the protestants (maybe presbyterians) have.

I hope I did not insult anyones faith as I simply mean to show you what its like for the other side.

Yes,for "non-believers",our kids might as well be coming home preaching about the flying spaghetti monster.

Conar

LadyJ wrote:

Yes,for "non-believers",our kids might as well be coming home preaching about the flying spaghetti monster.

Exactly thats it in a nutshell.
Please people imagine you sent your kids to a private tutor and they had the cheak to start filling your kids heads with things that simply are not true.
You would not stand for it would you?
Now imagine a situation where your kids MUST be sent to a school where they filled their heads with such nonsense. That is the reality that some of us must live with!

It is simply not fair!!!!!!

LadyJ

Conar wrote:

Exactly thats it in a nutshell.
Please people imagine you sent your kids to a private tutor and they had the cheak to start filling your kids heads with things that simply are not true.
You would not stand for it would you?
Now imagine a situation where your kids MUST be sent to a school where they filled their heads with such nonsense. That is the reality that some of us must live with!

It is simply not fair!!!!!!

I have to say,I have no problem with a person of any religion telling me all about what they believe and I respect that they believe it but,in the words of Dylan Moran,to me it might as well be someone talking at length about their imaginary friend.

Dirk Gently

LadyJ wrote:

in the words of Dylan Moran,to me it might as well be someone talking at length about their imaginary friend.

classic, never thought he was really funny outside of blackbooks but thats a good quote alright.

kiffer

LadyJ wrote:

Yes,for "non-believers",our kids might as well be coming home preaching about the flying spaghetti monster.

Reminds me of the time I came home and told dad that Fr. O'Brian told me that I was going to hell... I didn't have anything to confess when the school dragged us to confession, so I thought of the only thing I could, we didn't go to Mass every sunday. (or rather I always got out of it). Suddenly the Priest was all Mortal sin this and mortal sin that...
I would have been better off making up something.

I still just about remember the sex ed in 6th class. It was so awful, They took us all in to the gym and talked at us, I don't think they told us anything we didn't know, and definitly nothing about condoms. they asked if any one had any questions ... one kid asked about oral sex... and was told to wait till every one else had left... ohh how we laughed.
oh by all of us it felt like the whole gym was full, it was all the 6th classes in the school ... I don't recall how many that could be but it was pretty much a lecuture which gave less information than the "Wildlife on One" that I had watch the night before had given and it was about mice.

Cantab I'm not much older than you ... our sex ed was painfully bad. Honestly good sex ed is vital, chances are you were told more than we were. heaven knows it would have been hard to be told less.

Sex ed for us consited of Telling us that Child birth was painfull But rewarding.
And that Orgasims where sometimes called other things... but not what a orgasim was.
That was basicaly it had nothing about condoms or any thing...

I don't know if the the large group was to stop us asking questions or just so that they could get through us faster.
I sware nothing that Nature programs hadn't told us.

rainbow kirby

Cantab. wrote:

Parents who want such views instilled in their children should send their children to aethist schools and stop demanding that the Church change their views to satisfy this liberal majority that I keep talking about!

And *if* I ever have kids (quite unlikely, but that's another story) there's no way in hell I'm sending them to a Catholic school. If there were any truly atheist schools in Ireland I would be first on the list to send my future kids there as there's no way I'd want them brainwashed by the Catholic church, or by any other religion. I want my kids to learn to think for themselves, and get proper sex education - for them to learn about contraception, to stay safe, and also to be made aware of LGBT issues once they are old enough to understand.

Li'l Irish

I've yet to hear of a place with decent sex ed. Maybe Amersterdam, I don't know. I have high hopes that somewhere, someone has figured it out.

I myself am a great fan of sex and I actually feel a great deal of pity for anyone who thinks that sex is evil or sinful. If God didn't want you to have sex, why did he make it feel so good? And while it is true that there is no such thing as 'safe sex', there is 'relatively safe sex' and 'letting the kids watch two dogs hump in a backyard and let them draw thier own conclusions.'

The Christian-influenced sex education tends to give the vaguest of explanations about the actual act and then showing horror stories about having sex as a teenager and getting pregnant/diseased. The irony of my particular situation was that there were two pregnant girls in my high school sex ed class and one of them stood up at the end and stated that what we had just been told was so much horse****.

The Christian-influenced sex ed always promotes abstinence. That's all well and good, but statistically speaking, it doesn't work. Teenagers that have taken oaths to remain virgins until thier wedding day catch STDs and get pregnant at exactly the same rate as thier uninitiated brethren. In America, we actually had a Surgeon General fired because she suggested that sex ed should teach kids about masturbation as an alternative to sexual activity. Apparently this makes God cry, so she was tossed out for that simple statement.

Now, if you think about it logically, the options for a horny teen girl are: fall into bed with some dimestore cowboy who could leave her pregnant, diseased, or both, or: use a marital aid that could, at worst, give her a yeast infection if she forgets to wash it. Hmmmmmm.

Speaking as a practical person, the day my daughter admits to having sexual feelings, we're breaking out the adult catalogue and picking out her first lover.

Another point that I find ironic is that people talk about 'the good old days' when everyone stayed virgins until thier wedding night. That was a fantasy any day you looked at it, but consider this: 75 years ago, people got married when they were thirteen to fourteen years old. Patsy Cline was married when she was fourteen. By the time she was eighteen, she had four children. Rejection of condoms and other artificial methods of contraception is great if your life goal is staying barefoot and pregnant for the next fifteen years.

The way I look at it, the Christian right has been trying sex ed for the last 2,000 years and they still haven't gotten it right. Let someone else take a stab at it.

metrovelvet

Question:

Whether the school is secular or catholic doesnt it come down to the Department of Ed putting it on the curriculum?

Dirk Gently

metrovelvet wrote:

Question:

Whether the school is secular or catholic doesnt it come down to the Department of Ed putting it on the curriculum?

Yes, it’s a state curriculum but the religious heads of the schools resist sexual education which is not catholic based. Most schools are run by religious orders so they shun away from proper sex ed. When I was in secondary school we had personal development class but it only lasted a few months before it was scraped by the school and religion class once again became our only class in which to discuss personal issues.

The fact is they wont allow anything that goes against their own religious teaching and most schools in Ireland are run by religious orders so its very hard to avoid religion being taught as personal development.

metrovelvet

Bizarre. It seems like a natural part of your education.

Where do they expect you to learn it from? Were you freaked out when changes started happenning in your body because no one told you?

Why doesnt the department of ed enforce it? Make it a leaving cert subject?

Nevyn

The rescourses are out there

http://www.crisispregnancy.ie/parentresource.html

The thing is there should not be one sex ed class but a series of disscusions.
It is the responsiblity of parents to equip thier children with the knownledge they need and what a sense of morals but the sexual health facts of the matter should be clearly taught in schools.

Shellie13

DOLEMAN wrote:

Surprise surprise. No I am not religious. You don't believe in condoms yet you believe in "religion" which is obviously - to anyone who's not brainwashed - total utter nonsense.

PS Cantab please don't hijack my topic with your religious viewpoints. There are religious forums where you are free to spout these views.

Hey now thats pure ignorance!!!
I'm an athetist myself but we ALL get our moral beliefs from somewhere whether it be an infunintal individual, a set code of beliefs or personal experiances!

To denounce someone because their beliefs strem from religion is an easy way to dismiss an argument! Reguardless of whether or not there is a lil god or gods up there just because he's religious you've no right to dismiss whatever he says!

Extreme atheists/agnostis are just as bad as extremist religious groups!